I see this post as a boring judgmental drone on women who choose to be mothers or wives.

Motherhood changes you. That is without a doubt. Marriage changes you.

But it doesn't have to make you unfeminist. Motherhood and feminism aren't mutually exclusive. For someone who is better at it then me check out: MOJO MOM. Amy is brilliant as a mom, a writer, and as a person.

Feminism as an ideal and as a reality are different things tho. When you have kids or a husband, you end up making sacrifices. You put off your career a little for them, or you call in sick to work so you can go to a school play or recital.

But you know what, you love them. And they become more important than getting the corner office or whatever you consider to be success. I consider my roles as a mother and wife something makes me more rounded as person. They challenge me to be better than I would on my own. I consider myself successful when my child is happy, when my relationship with my husband is on track.

I think it's sad that motherhood/marriage is either portrayed as THE IDEAL or an aberration. There are good things and terrible things about motherhood. You have to get the whole story before you can decide whether you want to or not. Propoganda and the media are not good barometers for the reality of mother hood.

I couldn't agree more with the article! Happily married, without children (never wanted any), I was and still am tired of people asking why I don't have any and don't want any. There must be an organization for other happy childless couples! There is more to life than reproducing!

I don't think it's necessary to change who you are as a person when you get married or have children. It is definitely expected, though. I know that whenever I act in any way unlike the "mommy ideal" of our culture around my child's classmate's parents. It gets wearing to either act like someone you're not or be ostracized. Not having to see those people every day is definitely the thing I love most about summer.

asrai commented at July 16, 2008 1:58 PM: "But you know what, you love them. And they become more important than getting the corner office or whatever you consider to be success."

Meanwhile, it's not even always a trade-off. What about when a mother and worker aims for getting the corner office or whatever because she loves her children and reaching that goal will empower her to do more of what she wants to do for her children?

First, I am 42, married, no kids. Always thought I wanted them, but now that I've been married four years (late bloomer) we're no closer to "deciding" if we want them or not. I'm already pretty much past thinking I'll ever carry a child biologically. So anyway, that's just to give you a snapshot of where I'm coming from. I struggle with those thoughts a lot lately -- if we eventually make a final decision not to have children (adoption or fostering) how will that affect our sense of selves or how others will perceive us? Mostly I don't care how others will perceive us, but it is part of the equation.

Now to the way you worded your post: I think a bit of clarification is in order. You write: "become boring, indulgent, judgmental drones when they become mothers."

Okay, please be more specific. Boring in what way? They are no longer talking about things that interest you? They only talk about their kids?

Indulgent. To whom? About what?

Judgmental. Again: Of whom? About what?

I think a bit of clarifying on these points would help round out your post. Right now it seems like a pretty wide-sweeping attack of women who become mothers, and I think there's more nuance that you should bring out.

Also curious how old you are. I remember going through some similar feelings when I was in my late 20s and a lot of friends began to marry. I am probably now as "boring" to someone in her late 20s as they were then, simply because some of my priorities in life have change.

Ugh, "changeD."

When people get marrried and have kids they change because their priorities/ goals change. I want to get married one day(in the very distant future) but i dont want to have kids. Will I change yes but do i think that i will change because i became married.. no.

I'll try to respond to as many of your comments as I can - you all had great things to say!

FYI - I am 30. And I am getting to the age where I am losing friends to motherhood and finding it difficult to make new friends in my age group due to the children issue. My friends who have married and had children are completely different people than they used to be. I understand the time demands of parenthood prevent people from going out as much with there friends and all of that. My concern is more about their change in attitude. They become smug and judgmental - they were never like that before. They believe they are smarter than me and more mature simple because they are married and have become mothers. I used the media as an example of this, but I don't look to the media for guidance on the matter...it simply reflects what is going on in my own life: The bizarre Motherhood fetish that I see.

I am not anti-marriage or anti-motherhood - that would be anti-feminist by definition as many women are both wives and mothers. Just because it is not for me, doesn't mean it's not for someone else. But I feel that when a woman is one or both of those things, she is, as author Kamy Wicoff has said, "taking on a role that is bigger that her ability to define it." That is what would make me uneasy about it. The pressures and the expectations that are involved - someone mentioned that above. But the longer you remain single and/or without children, the more you are socially ostracized. I have a hard time relating to these women. I have never been a big party girl who likes to go clubbing or anything, but I don't really like spending time with parents and children. But if your friends have them, they are always there when you see them (sitters are expensive, and with the hours people work, sometimes weekends are the only time they get to spend with them). I am to a point now where my boyfriend and I dread going to social functions because most of the people there are these smug parents who only want to talk about there kids - that is when they are not busy judging your decision not to have any.

I have to either pretend to be someone I am not - a person who actually likes these people - or be ostracized. I suppose I am just frustrated with this aspect of my life and was wondering what others in the feminist community thought about it.

RE: Comment on my comment.
If becoming succesful in your job is the best thing for you and your family then so be it. I'm not against that. I was saying (slightly badly) that when you have kids you have different priorities.

It sucks that they feel superior because they have kids. If you don't like the priorities you're friends have, you're gonna have to tell them that you feel left out and could we talk/do something sometimes that's childless friendly. Or find new friends. (Join or start a childless by choice meetup).

They may not be aware they've changed and how they are acting. My relationship with my friends has changed since I've had children and they haven't.

I understand where you post is coming from as it was a fear I had about getting married. I never planned on getting married, even as a young girl when I imagined my life it was alone or with lots of dogs :)

However, I ended up meeting a guy and things just happened to work out. I don't feel I've changed that much more but I find that people do expect me to act differently. My husband and I always talked about how all these people constantly ask us "How's married life." Are answers were always like "fine", "same as usual" etc etc. However people were really disapponted in this, especially other married couples. They were expecting an answer more like "my life was complete and utter emptiness until I discovered the joy of legally binding myself to another person and sharing a bank account" (what I actually said to someone once). I also had issues with my single friends rejecting any sembance of my married life as well "You're not coming out tonight cause you're old and married now" etc.

I think know that it is easy to get sucked into a certain mindset, especially if you are surrounded with people celebrating that mindset which is how I imagine many parents get sucked into the "cult" but your fear of them changing may also be coloring how you view simple things. It is a major change to have a baby and they will have to make sacrifices for it and they will want to talk about it. That doens't mean they have entered the cult so maybe some of your feelings on how they have become could be unreasonable expectations considering the new stage they are at.

sorry that was so long and convoluted

I

taxgirl, thanks for clarifying! I was thinking of posting something that i wrote when I was 33, and I think you might relate to it. Keep your eyes peeled for it (if it's approved that is!) Thanks-- I do understand where you are coming from.

OK I have to comment because I'm on the other end of this. I'm 30, just like the author of this post. But I'm engaged, happily looking forward to getting married. And, yes, looking forward to having kids. I actually WANT kids.

And guess what? I've been verbally attacked by some of my friends who want to be childless, even though I've told them repeatedly that I honor and value their choice. So your post really triggered some complex emotions in me.

First of all, yes, the media is baby crazy! I can understand how irritating and othering that may make a childless person feel. But it's not easy for us wannabe-moms either! Try being told that you're crazy, the media isn't motherhood-obsessed--you're just seeing what you want to see. Or oh, you just want kids because you're a 30 year old woman and you have a "biological clock" that's more powerful than your silly little brain! And THEN you have childless women giving you dire warnings that if you give into your desire to have kids, you'll change irreparably! You'll turn into a boring, child-obsessed, milk machine!

Whew, deep breath... ok, I'm calming down now.

But that's a little taste of what it feels like on the other side of the fence.

And, BTW, either cut your friends some slack or get some new friends. Don't put up with friends who are "boring, smug, and judgemental." Or--here's a radical idea--try talking honestly with your friends about how you feel, and honestly, openly asking them about how they feel. If they're still "boring, smug, and judgemental," well at least you tried.

demimonde,

That's terrible that your friends aren't supportive of your decision. Maybe we both need to go find some new friends! (LOL) For the record, I have never told these women that I disapprove of their choices.

Well, let me just say that I'm 35 and I'm 7 months pregnant with my first (and probably only) child.

I'm divorced but when I was married, it seemed like all of my ex-husband's female relatives were reproducing at a fantastic rate. This led to family gatherings in which the men stood outside drinking beer and the women sat in a circle around a couple babies rolling around on the floor and this was our entertainment. The assumption was, of course, that because we were women a baby was constantly fascinating to us. I remember being disgusted. It made me rebel against the idea of having a baby.

I notice that many times when people get married or have children, they suddenly want all their friends to do the same. I've always thought that it's because they've taken a huge plunge and they want other people do it too in order to validate their actions. That's sort of a cynical view, I realize, but I say so because this encouragement to join in the fun ends up sounding judgmental and sort of condescending.

And then some people do get weird after having kids. Being pregnant, I get a lot of attention from friends and strangers - people are always asking me when I'm due, if it's a boy or a girl, etc. I don't mind - people are for some reason interested. I think the same sort of thing happens when you have small children - especially little babies. So, I've observed that sometimes you meet women who seem like their baby is the only thing they want to talk about. Maybe they're just used to everybody asking them about the baby so they assume you're interested too. I don't know.

And, yes, your single-childless friends change when you get pregnant. Almost immediately after reavealing I was pregnant, many of my girlfriends withdrew from me. It was as if they expected me to change so they went ahead and changed for me. Jeez, I was pregnant not dead!

I'm not too worried about undergoing a weird metamorphosis upon giving birth. Through the pregnancy I've remained my ordinary self. I'm not obsessed with babies or little kids. I, of course, have a world of feeling for the one curled up in my rotund abdomen. I agree with one of the earlier posts that personalitly changes are expected. I f*cking hate when people impose expectations on me - especially when they involve some gender stereotype.

Well, that's the end of my disorganized thoughts on the topic.

I've had the same experience - some of my friends who have gotten married or have had children (but not all!) seem to imply that they know more than me about life issues, despite not having experienced things that I have. It's come to the point that I don't have many married friends because I've gotten tired of the "well, when you're married, you'll understand that you just don't have the time for others anymore!" I, too, get that kids take up an enormous amount of time. And they should! But I dislike getting the smugness that comes with it for some people. If I say, "I'm tired, I didn't get much sleep last night," someone might say, "Oh, you don't know what you're talking about. Try having a four-month old and then come back and tell me how tired you are." Well, I am tired. And I don't need to play Oppression Olympics with you to know that I am tired. You can be, too. It's fine. I don't feel the need to be more tired than you.

I've talked about it with them and gotten the same response from two or three of them: I'm just too immature.

MzBitca:I also had issues with my single friends rejecting any sembance of my married life as well "You're not coming out tonight cause you're old and married now" etc.

I don't think I've ever pulled out the "you're old and married" card. That's really rude.

demimonde: And guess what? I've been verbally attacked by some of my friends who want to be childless, even though I've told them repeatedly that I honor and value their choice. So your post really triggered some complex emotions in me.

Wow, that's also really rude. Your choice should most certainly be supported, too.

Alexandra, I think you're right on.

Perhaps motherhood and marriage steers some women away from feminism, but certainly not all. To assume that there is something inherent in motherhood that makes you dull and conservative insults me, personally. Becoming a mother and getting married has actually made me much more of a radical feminist than I ever was before. Only now do I really understand the need for complete abortion and contraception rights because of my firsthand experience. Only now do I understand the imperative need for women to have birthing options, universal daycare, healthcare and pre-K, and the need to eliminate job discrimination. I think many feminists forget that while it is important for people to speak up that it is perfectly natural to not want kids, it is also perfectly natural to want kids. The capacity for motherhood is in our biology and it's perfectly fine to want to utilize that aspect of our bodies. Women should not be shunned from the feminist movement simply because they want or have kids and are proud of that.

I'm 30 with one child and none of my friends have children. Motherhood definitely changed me. It pushed me to the boundaries of my abilities in a so many ways. I haven't had any other experiences that have done it in such a way (been divorced from an abusive man, been at the pointy end of a gun). I would never say it to my friends, but I do feel like I know something that they'll only ever understand if they go through it themselves - but I don't feel smug, it's more of a simple fact.

I recently went back to school for a career change, and to hopefully offer my family a better future. I study with people 10 years my junior and have been told "you're pretty cool for an old person" :D and also that I just don't seem like someone who would be married AND have a child. I work hard at it though and try to be mindful of people who aren't married and don't have kids.

Perhaps many people, when getting married and/or having children, think they have to think and act in a certain way? Maybe if more people realised that they don't have to adhere to the stereotype we'd all be better off!

That said, I discovered that after having a child it was like being accepted unconditionally into a secret club. Other parents who would never have given me the time of day previously would come up to me (a complete stranger) and have conversations that only "someone whose been through it" could have. It was like having a child suddenly helped people transcend barriers of race, class, education and goodness knows what else.

I love my childless friends! It's never like organising a military operation to pop out for coffee when the opportunity presents itself ;)

For me mothering gives me a healthy challenge in raising a compassionate non patriarcial son. I think this is easier since I'm a single mom so he doesn't see some roles as fem and others as masculine - he sees one strong person do it all. He loves toy cars and doll houses. He likes to help with housework and groceries. He also sees me work, pay bills and do auto repair.

Yes I choose to limit travel, and my money matters center on him. But since having him almost 3 yrs ago I've gone back to school and I'm on the executive track at work.

I respect your choice not to have children. I choose to have just one. Isn't it nice so many amazing women have and continue to fight for our rights to choose the size of our families?

All that said, I don't think ill ever marry. I like being the master of my own destiny and would rather live unmarried with a partner for decades than wed but I don't think that makes me more of a feminist than married ones, just happily single.