I really respect this. I'm one of those people who's still trying to reconcile my feminism with stripping, etc, and it's not that I have any judgment for the women, but the system. I don't know. But I really like this post. I like the idea that sex worker are "more honest" about it. Thanks :)

This is a tough subject to tackle. What concerns me is the cultural context... the culture in which we live, with women's bodies as commodities. The stipper industry (is it an "industry"?) portrays women's bodies this way, and I struggle with that.

But... it's the same for female and male strippers, isn't it? And models, and actors...

And... I agree with freedom of choice. Our bodies are our bodies, we can do with them what we please.

Yeah. It's a tough subject. I appreciate this post, and I've learned from it. Thank you, i muse.

One of the things that always bugs me about people who are against any kind of sex-work, from stripping to pornography, is when they use the "degrading" argument.

Even granting that sex-work is degrading, which I don't because I've yet to hear a reason for this that does not involve the automatic degradation of the sexuality of someone or the notion that getting paid for something that some would do for free is somehow a bad thing, but just for the sake of argument I can't figure out how people who call it "degrading" feel that it's any more so than working at McDonald's or any other crap job with less pay and less flexibility.

Are some people forced into some kinds of sex work because of external factors? Fuck yeah they are, and it's horrible to think about. But I got forced into the Army because of external factors too, yet I'm encouraged to feel pride in being a vet (and I do take pride in it to a degree), but the fact is I joined up because I had no other real opportunity. Being trained to kill at the whim of a politician was literally the best choice I could have made for my self. Yet this is considered a good thing by most people, while choosing to stimulate and sexually entertain other people, even if it is simply the best choice out of a myriad of bad choices, is considered a "bad thing".

Anyhow, good on you. Being a peeler is a grand thing if you take pride in your work. Glad you spoke up on your thoughts, it helps to deflect the popular image about strippers being dumb.

I will admit that I am not a fan of the sex industry.

I have no problem with the women in it. I have no doubts that if I needed the money and sex work was the best way to get that money, I'd do it. And I don't think there's anything wrong with women being sexual.

It's not the supply-side (people who are doing the actual work in sex work), but the dynamics of the demand-side. For sex work to pay women so well (one of the few places that women make more than men in our society), those prices are based on patriarchal notions of the male gaze and women's sexuality as commodity.

I can't fault a woman for taking advantage of patriarchy (which is so stubborn to change) to her financial benefit. But I can fault patriarchy for making only sex, not other positive attributes, the way women can make as much (or more) money than men.

So my stance is that I work to make the male gaze and commodification of sex less profitable in comparison to other careers so that women who don't want to work in the sex industry feel like they have a viable option to leave it and not suffer financially.

Thanks for posting this. I just said the other day that as a feminist, I'm not sure how I view sex work and stripping. I think the issue is that there are some women who make the choice to get into sex work or stripping as a genuine career choice compared to women who don't have many other options. I think women who don't have options need them. I'm not sure what to think about women who choose sex work or stripping, which means I should probably not think anything of them as a group and instead think of them as individuals.

I'm listening. But I'm not yet a believer. These are just my observations as one gal. I don't speak for anyone but myself. I do appreciate the conversation though.

I'll believe that stripping is feminist when I see mainstream clubs featuring fat women, older women and everything in between. Burlesque maybe? But it's hardly mainstream.

I'll believe it when I see more mixed-gender nudity in strip clubs. Hell, even swinger's clubs seem more egalitarian in this way. I'm not asking for 50%/50% here, but 100%/0 seems extreme for me to consider something to be egalitarian or feminist. And segregating male strippers to their own strip clubs isn't what I have in mind.

I sniff an element of racism in sex work (not unlike the racism inherent in the modeling industry). I won't elaborate but it would be interesting to see if certain ethnicities have more income earning potential than others. How would that be framed under feminism?

Ultimately it's not just up to women.
I believe part of what is keeping sex work "feminized" and thus marginalized is the rigidity of male heterosexuality. This needs to be addressed, but few seem willing to take it on.

And ElleStar, I also like what you said in your last paragraph!

I am de-lurking after a year of reading this site to say: I am so grateful to this poster's eloquence on this subject. I worked as a stripper and a phone sex operator when I was going to graduate school. I had other options, I just decided on the sex industry because it was something I'd always wanted to do and thought I'd enjoy, and I did enjoy both jobs. I chose my employers carefully, and had really great experiences.

I love msunderestimated's last sentence--each of us are individuals. For the women who have horrible abuses and experiences, who have no other choices, I agree, sex work can be and is degrading for them. But not for EVERYBODY who chooses to do it. And like the original poster, I met a lot of amazing, wonderful, and inspiring women at BOTH jobs.

spike the cat:

I think your saying that because the thing that sells is being sold the most then you won't accept the possibility that sex work not antithetical to feminism.

Well you're clearly not too familiar with the product. Strip clubs certainly are predominantly catering to the most common perception of beauty, in the U.S. and most of Europe that is big boobs, narrow waist, trimmed pubes, etc. This is not, as you imply, 100% of the case. Some of the most profitable retailers of sex are those that cater to a desire for "natural beauty", un-enhanced breasts (pendulous or small and all shapes in-between), figures evocative of fertility (plump, curvy, pick your euphemism).

And depending on where you live you can indeed go to a strip joint that features male and female entertainment. Now it's true that this is the minority, but it's mere existence runs contrary to the absolute nature of your argument.

I, myself, prefer "real" women who are shaped by genetics and gravity (no, I'm not looking for a cookie here) and have no difficulty finding either pornography or clubs that cater to my interests.

But the fact is that the majority of people who are willing to spend money on this product, and that's what it is in this scenario, are looking for a certain kind of merchandise. You can argue, rightly so IMHO, that there is something gone wrong with a society that has come to expect women to change nature to become beautiful but it also foolish to go into an argument that puts you in a position of having to say that physical beauty is even mostly subjective. Nearly all people can agree on at least some common and fundamental foundation for what is inherent in beauty, both male and female, and for most of us we kind of get the shaft in that deal. Beauty is certainly influenced by environment, but there are universal marks, such as symmetry or smooth/clear skin that are almost 100% universal.

As to a non prevalence of mixed gender in sexual merchandising: It will never happen. Even men who do not get freaked out by homosexuality are still going to be more attracted to a club where 100% of the entertainment caters to their specific interest. If you want to buy a product and you're paying for it, you don't buy the product that is diluted if it's the same price as the undiluted version.

The reason sex clubs are generally more accepting is complex, but since I managed a sex club and worked as entertainment there for two years before that I think I can speak to it:

1) The further out on the fringe you get the more accepting or tolerant of individual niche's you become. Once you're branded a "weirdo" by the general populace you begin to examine the other people you might be inclined to label as weird, yourself.

2) A sex club is pretty much about one thing, people wanting to have sex or watch other people have sex or be seen having sex. If you're driven to any of these things to the point of paying money to go to a sex club (even in a liberal town this is a socially risky venture) then you're likely to encourage or ignore anything that does not hinder the chances of doing one of the aforementioned three things. There are enough women out there, in that culture at least, who get turned on by male/male sex that allowing at least the hint of it at your club can improve the chances of you getting to your objective. Look at it like fishing: Nobody likes getting up when it's cold out, but that's when the fish are biting.

BTW: The club I managed did not allow male/male sexual acts in "public areas" which ended up being a major issue for me because they said "No homosexual sex" and refused to change the wording even after I repeatedly told the owners that "Female/female sex is homosexual sex". Also my plan to have attendance of a sexual health seminar at our local PPH compulsory was a very unpopular stance.

Also in some European countries that tolerate the sex trade older and "fat" women working the trade are often very much in-demand. True they are not what the majority are looking for, but people who want a 400# 60 y/o black woman really won't settle for anything else (she's a real woman, btw. And a very nice lady to chat with although she would be in her 70's by now).

Logrus,

There's no need for ad hom (i.e., "clearly I don't know the "product".) You really have no idea what I know or where I'm coming from.

Furthermore, it's a common fallacious argument to say that a subgroup x is representative of the whole of x. Perhaps I should have made it clearer that I was addressing the mainstream. It is a valid critique to ask why certain aspects stay mainstream and why others stay marginalized. Feminist do this for all areas of work and society so I'm not sure why stripping should be spared.

For the rest I appreciate your honesty about the dynamics of the club and addressing sexuality and preferences. More food for thought.

"I'm not asking for 50%/50% here, but 100%/0 seems extreme for me to consider something to be egalitarian or feminist. And segregating male strippers to their own strip clubs isn't what I have in mind."

This statement, which indicates you believe that the ration is zero and which is easily refuted by doing a google search or going to an adult video store or picking up one of the many local adult magazines or going to your nearest Craigslist and searching under erotic services is why I concluded you don't know the product very well.

I don't know why you would take offense at this, but I'm sorry that you did. It wasn't intended to be offensive, simply to point out the obvious. You're admitting your dislike for the product and demonstrating your not too familiar with it, so why would you mind someone pointing this out?

I'm sorry, but if someone posts a review of a movie or a book but clearly hasn't read the book what is the polite way to say "But you haven't even read the book." I'm not saying you have to read the book to have an opinion on it, but you stated falsehoods as fact, that's what I was responding to. I'm not saying you have to like the sex industry (I don't like much or even most of the industry myself, but that's reflective of the nature of those who run it, hell the nature of capitalism is exploitive, not those who work in it or even most of those who consume it) but to speak of the goings on of the sex industry demands some basic understanding of it. Otherwise it's "I don't like that book because the cover has a picture on it that I don't like." which is fine, I've skipped books for just that reason.

Logrus,

I was specifically referring to strip venues (per the original posting) and not all erotic services, which is why I made the distinction with the seemingly more egalitarian sex club (also an erotic service).

So I'm in Milan (Italy) and the bay area. Google search me a mixed-gender heterosexual strip venue where I can enjoy male and female nudity. I'm open.

"What concerns me is the cultural context... the culture in which we live, with women's bodies as commodities. The stipper industry (is it an 'industry'?) portrays women's bodies this way, and I struggle with that."

Commodities?

I thought that when industries push goods and services, commodities are the goods instead of the services. When someone pays a merchant for a head of lettuce or a barrel of oil and consumes it, at the end of it the merchant doesn't still have that head of lettuce or barrel of oil. When someone pays a strip club fee for a show and then watches it, at the end of it the stripper still has her or his body (I hope). Seems to me that lettuce and oil are commodities, the strip show is a service instead, and whatever her body is portrayed as (which can vary depending on other factors) it's probably not a commodity.

Logrus,

PS. I say "het venue" (meaning a strip club marketed primarily to a hetero clientele but open to anyone of course) because I recognize much more fluidity and openness in the GLBT venues.

You should re-read my 1st posting, especially the 1st few sentences. Your diatribe seems misdirected.

Spike the cat:

Disregarding the fact that I'm hampered by my pathetic inability to read Italian the fact that you automatically exclude a GLBT club would eliminate or render futile most any results I could find. In my own town of Portland, Oregon U.S.A. with only one exception (the Viewpoint Lounge) all the clubs that allow or encourage male and female entertainment are considered "gay" clubs, regardless of how much of the income is actually derived from men who self-identify as "heterosexual". That's just how most western society works, if it's even a "little bit queer then it's queer".

And as to your "mainstream" argument: While some porn is more marketable than other porn the mainstream argument is invalid. No sex work is mainstream. that's a pretty bold statement for me to make, but as long as I can't list "managing a sex club" on a resume to get a square job, regardless of how much I improved profits while I was doing the job, then it's not mainstream. That makes it a subculture of sorts, and as such it should be able to define it's own societal construct.

Also the argument that it's exploitive because it does not exploit equally seems problematic in essence. As I've said you can't reasonable argue that there isn't such a thing as a beauty standard, both variable but depending on some given constants, so stating that something predicated on the sale of appearance is antithetical to feminism because it excludes or under uses people who fall outside the standard deviation of attractiveness is specious. This is like arguing that the pizza industry discriminates against anchovies because most people don't want to eat anchovies.

Mina: Labor isn't traditionally defined as a commodity, except in Marxism where it's referred to as "labour power", but for the sake of a simplified discussion it is not wrong to refer to the sale of services as selling a commodity or the demand for a service as a demand for a commodity. It's not specifically accurate, but it's not misleading.

It may be taken as dehumanizing, I suppose, but I don't think it was intended that way.

No worries Logrus, just trying to make myself clearer.

"And as to your "mainstream" argument: While some porn is more marketable than other porn the mainstream argument is invalid. No sex work is mainstream."

What? Hugh Hefner has a show on MTV detailing his lifestyle and porn empire and you say sex work isn't mainstream? (Free unsolicited samples of uncut porn is a benefit or curse [in my case] when you have a friend that worked for playboy for 7 years.)

And stripping isn't mainstream? Hiring a stripper for bachelor/ette night is practically a right of passage. Strip clubs dot major towns and cities...You've got dating gurus coaching men on how to date strippers and pole dancing classes on Oprah. Seems pretty mainstream to me.

Lastly, in my Italian neighborhood there is a swing club (usually brings in the gents from Switzerland judging from the tags on the cars). Very, very low key, very upscale. Not mainstream, but definitely more than tolerated.

Anyway I digress.

As I've said it in another posting, the criticisms of sex work (including stripping) are indeed criticism of gender stereotypes, double standards and perceived dominant sexuality. These and the issues dealing with health and safety affect almost ALL women. That's the conundrum.

In fact I'm looking for the data but I'm guessing the current HIV infection rate in heterosexual Black women in the US is higher than it is for sex workers in the US. I'm still looking for the stats, to prove it though. But see how it's all connected?

But I'm hogging the comments section, at this point. So to satisfy Logrus, I guess I have put my ass on a street corner before I can post on this topic next time, lol.

spike the cat: Well if you planning on working a hustle I can put you in touch with some very wise men and women who could give you pointers about personal safety and professional conduct that keeps you safe and sane.

But seriously, I'm just refuting your use of numbers to make an emotional argument. I won't say that your emotions are "wrong" on this, only your use of any numbers which were not based on even observation.

Get to know some sex workers, as a group they are often equally exploited and miserable about work as any other career in the service industry, but most often they are better paid.

First I'd like to say thank you to all the gentle, interested & interesting comments.
I braced myself for the comments and felt such a sense of relief and acceptance.
So, a heartfelt thank you to
Aint I A Woman
laurabs
ElleStar
msunderestimated
Shae
Mina
Logrus

and
spike the cat
Thank you for presenting your perspective. I recognize it. While I may not be able to answer some of your questions and concerns, I can respond.

My first club was a male and female club. I learned to pole dance from a male dancer, he is of the Choctaw tribe. I am "exotic/ethnic" not the idea of white in this culture. I had a 6 1/2 year old child when I began and do not look like a supermodel. I also worked in clubs like Big Daddy's with a great variety of women. Some tattooed and pierced, some very thin, some round, some young some not so young. Like many others (Hobo Stripper
http://www.hobostripper.com/145/the-f-word/
comes to mind)
I traveled and danced in a variety of types of clubs. Each has a different client base with different tastes. "It takes all types" I don't know if that makes it better or not, it merely informs us that the male gaze has a variety of tastes that are not represented in mainstream media. I soon discovered that confidence and an ability to sum up the customers in a nano second were more profitable than particular looks. Honing sales skills & learning to cater one's entertainment to each individual customer, while maintaining personal boundaries, is what makes for a successful stripper. Not all strippers are successful. There are many women who experience it and do not gain much financially. I have not ever encountered a more diverse group of women in any of the industries I've worked in (Film, Food, Fitness, Dance / Theatre) during my lifetime.

If strip clubs were mainstream, strippers wouldn't make the large sums of money one can earn. The taboo is profitable.

As to the question of whether the strip industry is an industry or not. Well, there are clubs with employees and independent contractors, websites, clothing lines, shoe lines, make-up lines, specialty shops that cater to strippers, music created for strippers, DJ's with that specific specialty, poles for sale, pole dance classes, etc. etc. etc.
If the fitness industry is an industry, then the strip industry is as well.

I felt that I was working in service, providing live adult entertainment.

Please feel free to stop by my Live Journal for more to read. If you check out the userinfo page you'll discover links to some of my favorite writers online.

grace,
i_muse

i muse,

Your story is very encouraging. You've provide very useful information and perspective. I will definitely check out your LiveJournal. I appreciate your taking the time here with us (and me) and being open.

I am still trying to form my views on stripping/sex industry. On the one hand I feel that they are being exploited and that it is terrible that women are valued only for their body.
However, I do watch pornography targeted at women and I have gone to male strip clubs for my 18th birthday and for friends' birthdays and really enjoyed it. So it would be hypocritical of me to say that it's objectifying women and then go to and look at naked guys.

I continue to read various opinions on the subject and appreciate your post. I think that my biggest problem will always be the difference in the way men and women in the industry are treated. Men are not simultaneouly lusted after/dismissed as whores by society.Or by the fact that young actresses strip for magazines , pole dance in clubs whereas young actors are not as eager to pose for Playgirl or strip on a table at Les Duex ot Avalon or wherever. I'm not comfortable with the idea of young women or women in general using pole-dancing as an exercise , wearing Playboy t-shirts and thinking that liberation means flashing guys. I'm pretty up in the air with my views. It's a tough one.

Hi mintmullally,

It sounds like you take more issue with the way society perceives women who are expressing themselves sexually for money than the women making their living that way. i can understand that fo'sho'.

To my knowledge, women tend to make more money in the sex industry than men do. I'm sure there are positives and negatives and each individual has a unique career experience.

As for the women and young girls who are being flippant about their sexuality and going so far as to call it liberating, I can't speak for "civilians" or amateurs. I'm also from a different generation so, I can do my best to listen, be compassionate and get some understanding, but, I wont pretend that I can relate 100%.

I will say, as someone who lived many a Mardi Gras, before and after my experience as a stripper, and as a local rather than as a tourist:
It is freeing to let go of dogma, stigma, shame and guilt during festival and walk around scantily clad and with wild abandon. People expose their alter ego's, and parade around processing and letting go- whether they are conscious of it or not- it is a yearly cleansing ritual (at least for us locals)...I found that to be the case in Brazil during Carnival too.

I'm glad to hear you're up in the air with your views, it sure is better than rooted in prejudice : )

grace,
i_muse

do people really believe that stripping is "expressing yourself sexually?"

As for the whole "degrading" argument, when you allow yourself to be objectified, you are definitely degrading and making it harder for women who DON'T want to be objectified.

Dropping in to say I'm glad my post helped inspire you!

Hi Bee,

I'm sorry you feel that way.
Mostly I'm sad that to hear a tone of disrespect for other women in your short comment.
What a woman does to earn a living, whether it is out of survival or not, does not make her less of a woman.
Blaming women for objectification is not only ridiculous, it's counter productive to any movement concerned with shifting that.

I am alive. I raised my children. We not only had a home (rented and moved a few times) food, clothing, etc. we also had books and were able to study. We are artists as well. We've all read enough to not allow anyone to sit in their place of privilege and judge or blame us without talking back.

This is me talking back to you-
STOP blaming women.

thanks and good luck.
i_muse

Bee:

When you see something, anything at all, then you're working with two kinds of perceptions.

1) Physical/objective perception. The ability to actually see what is there, what shape it is, what size it is, what color it is, etc.

2) Societal perception: "What does this mean in relation to me?" You are deciding to go along with the convention that states that "nudity = bad/sex = bad". This is an imposed context that you're submitting to, it is completely artificial and culturally specific. The nature of objectification is not sexually specific, objectification in the subject/object relationship means your mind is deciding what the subject of your observation should and should not be or do. when you see a person behaving in a sexual (real or simulated manner) and you are making a judgment on them and what they do then you ore objectifying them every bit as much as someone sexually aroused by their own observation.

Any degradation/shame/ect placed on a display of sex or sexuality is imposed by the viewer. So if sex work and displays like stripping or pornography are shameful you're the person responsible for it.

Logrus

Right on!

perception is mere reflection.

What is our job? - part of our job is to re-store value - so not unlike the issue at one time over the stay at home mom (how dare she choose to stay at home) we have another topic to pull away from exclusion thinking - no they are not the same - YES they are - in many ways - the most important and for the purpose of my response to the post is We must value women in their choices and see and remember the work as it all utilizes our gifts - healing work is the ancestor of the sex industry - it is soooo far from that now (who owns it - and patriarchy etc) but it is our job not to use the mind and language of patriarchy to JUDGE our sisters - it is our job to listen to the WHOLE of who WE ARE - we don't decide who is and who is not a Feminist - that is patriarchal rather look at our complex place in our invention and history and marvel at what it is that we are that can't be destroyed - feminist stripper is a given - If this dialogue is occuring and we can and are entering into it than it is time and we are still growing and still that powerful - we get upset because of what we know and we must listen deeply because of what we remember - allow us through each other

oxoxoxo to all

"healing work is the ancestor of the sex industry - it is soooo far from that now (who owns it - and patriarchy etc)"

Actually, no, it's not that far from it now.
It's likely closer to that, (healing work) now, than it was in any romanticized, fantasy past.
It varies from instance to instance.
Today, there are healers dancing, slaves dancing, victims dancing, empowered, stock- playing, retired math teachers dancing, nomadic eco-feminists dancing, writers dancing, mothers dancing, yoga instructors dancing, poets, scholars, drug addicts, herbalists, reiki masters, students, etc,
dancing.

It's better now (for women) than it ever was.

For some reason, I feel that stripping and pornography REINFORCE the validity of the male gaze.

One argument that's been made is that there is a market for it. There's a market for beating baby harp seals, but does that make it right? The point is that "giving people what they want" does not make it acceptable.

Another argument is that strippers/porn industry workers are doing what they need to do in order to survive. I do not dispute that. Drug dealers also do what they need to survive. Is it best for society? Probably not, but at least they are surviving...

To me, there is a difference between objectifying a woman's body and commodifying sex. I think that legalized prostitution is better than illegal. I also think that legalized prostitution is better for feminism than stripping and most pornography.

Femgineer
Oh no you didn't!
You did not just compare DANCING to clubbing baby seals!
Wow.
Wow.
The sexism /mysogyny is so deeply ingrained in you, you're unaware of what you are sounding like and propegating with nasty comments like that.
My ghetto catch phrase comments come out when I am laughing while typing, so please forgive me for that as I am laughing in a sad shaking my head sort of way (that one can only develop in the 9th ward of NOLA).

Anyways,
goodness woman, bless your heart and all that jazz.
I hope your disdain extends to actresses simulating sex for Oscars, are they also as bad as clubbing baby seals?
lol.
Or is it just those of us who are not backed up by management, agents, casting directors, and the rest of the film industry machine.
Is it just us dancers you blame for all the problems women face...we are just propagators all of us...lol
as a matter of fact, we got together and schemed it all out. It was a part of our master plan to make life for you a lil harder. See? your life is too easy and you are too privileged. It's all about you, that's why we dance- to make your life harder.
All about you.

And wait, let me get this straight once more.
You think taking a cock into my body for money is OK, but, showing off my physicality is not.
WOW
lovely
lovely effed up product of patriarchy you are.
Clubbing baby seals!
hahaha
wow.

again,
goddess bless your heart (clutches pearls and falls out laughing)

Femgineer
Oh no you didn't!
You did not just compare DANCING to clubbing baby seals!
Wow.
Wow.
The sexism /mysogyny is so deeply ingrained in you, you're unaware of what you are sounding like and propagating with nasty comments like that.
My ghetto catch phrase comments come out when I am laughing while typing, so please forgive me. I am laughing in a sad, shaking my head sort of way (that one can only develop in the 9th ward of NOLA).

Anyways,
goodness woman, bless your heart and all that jazz.
I hope your disdain extends to actresses simulating sex for Oscars, are they also as bad as clubbing baby seals?
lol.
Or is it just those of us who are not backed up by management, agents, casting directors, and the rest of the film industry machine.
Is it just us dancers you blame for all the problems women face...we are just propagators all of us...lol
as a matter of fact, we got together and schemed it all out. It was a part of our master plan to make life for you a lil harder. See? your life is too easy and you are too privileged. It's all about you, that's why we dance- to make your life harder.
All about you.

And wait, let me get this straight once more.
You think taking a cock into my body for money is OK, but, showing off my physicality is not.
WOW
lovely
lovely effed up product of patriarchy you are.
Clubbing baby seals!
hahaha
wow.

again,
goddess bless your heart (clutches pearls and falls out laughing)

oh wait,

and lets not forget that I am also now compared to a drug dealer

oh- of course!

I get it, because after all, my sexuality is a bad bad drug. It's very addictive and giving in to ti will destroy all of MAN kind !!!
Buahahahahaaa!

Yes, that's me-
the heroine! Like a shot in the arm, but lower!

Oh gee, this was too much fun for early in the morning.
spit coffee n all.
Blessed be.