Thank you!

My mother has always been active--hiking, snow-soeing, cross-country skiing. She has also always had very healthy eating habits--lots of veggies, no junk food, small meals. Sbe has also always been big. Her mother was big, too--she was over 300 pounds when she died from renal complications of being pregant with my mother. This was back during the Depression, so my grandmother was not scarfing Cheetohs while watching Maury.

My mom is in her seventies now, and she's plugging away just fine, thank you. There was some trouble with her kidneys a while back (it runs in the family, and has killed both her brothers), but she's bounced back wonderfully, and can still be found hiking in state parks.

Thank you for your for your post...it really struck a chord with me. I am also fat. I absolutely hesitate to use the word because it's been so driven into my brain that being fat equals being a failure as a woman in our culture. However, I do have a wonderful husband who tells me how much he loves me, how beautiful he finds me, and that my body is perfect. But I hate that I'm not able to tell myself the same things.

Fortunately, I've had conversations with two different doctors that gave me hope - one told me flat I was built for dragging plows uphill, and that a big portion of my size was simply genetics. I am built to be short and stocky, with ample boobs and butt. The other doctor (my new D.O. family physician) said that size is about 70% genetics and only 30% environment. Yes, I could stand to lose some weight - about 50 pounds of it - but I am never going to be comfortably smaller than a size 12 or 14. I even danced heavily for six years in my late teens to my mid twenties(Irish step dancing and ballet) and didn't get significantly smaller.

So even though I am currently dieting (I too have PCOS and hubby and I are trying to conceive), it has nothing to do with my size and everything to do with my health, and I think that outlook has made this diet so much easier for me to tackle. I'm not trying to get thin on this one, I'm trying to get healthy so that I can have another baby.

:)

Exactly. My grandmother on my dad's side lived to be 87.

By the way, I wrote this at 1 AM and therefore I apologize for misspelling "condescension." That's what I get for typing my draft into notepad first - no spell-check!

Amen, sister! I have been fat my entire life. I also exercise regularly! Those who have died from obesity related things in my family were not active and had horrible diets and have been completely sedentary. To even maintain a size 12 - which was my college skinny weight; I am 30 now - I was eating a vegan diet. No meat, dairy or sugar! Which was a great way to eat, but it was a little extreme for me so I couldn't keep it up forever. I am now a 16 with an active sex life, low blood pressure and with good cardio vascular health. I have no trouble climbing stairs and doing regular activities like carrying heavy bags of groceries or getting my heavy suitcase into the overhead bin on an airplane. I weigh about 220 pounds, which "sounds" fat to many people. They are shocked when I tell them how much I weigh. And they do the, "oh no, you're not fat" thing.

I think my "normal size" is a 14. That is the size I can keep effortlessly as long as I exercise regularly. I put on weight while studying for the bar exam - and I failed several times before I passed, so I did a bit of stress eating, which caused weight gain. And I was less active in law school so that resulted in weight gain also.

If you workout 4 times a week and just eat according to your natural appetite, you will be a healthy person. Period. I am tired of the US Government telling me I am going to die from one thing or another. My sister is thinner than me and she is on high blood pressure medication as is my mother who is tiny! It is something they both inherited. Loving my body took a while too and I am still in the process, but I am just tired of thinking about losing weight. I have been doing it forever, so I decided to take all that mental energy I have previously used thinking about carbs... and used it to become a lawyer instead.

Thank you so much for your post! I always hate it when I run into new people and we get to talking about sports, or hobbies, or something in that general realm and I tell people the fact that I was once scouted for the Canadian Olympic Team, and they look at me, then give me the once-over and give me that look of "you?!". It does seem that in today's society you're either fat or you're fit but the two spectrums can never overlap or have a middle area or anything remotely accurate.

Great post. Your first few paragraphs reminded me of when I taught an ESL class. We were doing a segment on basic adjectives, including personal descriptors, like tall, short, fat thin, etc. I have to admit, it was strange to my American ears to hear people, to hear women specifically, describe themselves as "fat" without a hint of self-consciousness or embarrassment. "I'm tall and fat. I am fatter than she is. The man in this photo is fat."

Yep. I too am 5'6", red-haired, and fat. (Although, some people have a problem with the red hair.) Over the last 5 years my lifestyle has changed dramatically and I haven't lost any weight, but my figure has changed to the point where everyone is surprised when I tell them I haven't lost a pound since high school (or, last year -- my boyfriend was surprised when I told him I weigh the same as I did last summer). While I've embraced my figure, (some)fat and all, I do still have a bit of a fat-complex thanks to my parents and society. Fortunately, my doctor thinks that (aside from a couple vitamin deficiencies and too-low cholesterol -- really) I'm perfectly healthy.

It sounds like you are too. So good for you for being healthy no matter what size you are. :)

*APPLAUSE*

Thank you for this post!

This post is great.

My sister and I used to have this back and forth... "You're prettier/skinnier than me" thing. I've just finally gotten to the point that I am actually loving my body and don't look for acceptance from others to do so.

One of the first things my dad comments on whenever I see him is that I look "so skinny" and that is supposed to mean I look great. I'm thinking... okay, but I eat pizza and burgers and drink Mello Yello. I'm probably the opposite of the picture of health. He's very down on fat people... very judgmental.

The reason that I am so much better off now is because of feminists like the ones here! I'm so happy that so many people are happy to be themselves.

Great post. I've been struggling my whole life with accepting my body (and I've taken part in many a diets), but it wasn't until I found feminism that it really started to stick. Sure, I still have days where I wish I looked like the actresses in the movies (I can't help it), but it's just a waste of time and self-esteem. I hope that one day, the stereotypes and stigma that go a long with being fat go away, but I am not holding my breath.

PS To TexasMomma, I used to do Irish Dance too! I miss it so much.

I don't like the term fat. I prefer overweight,. followed by obese. I am obese. My Wii fit says I have a near perfect center of balance and I must be a fitness enthusiast (after some of the exercises). Fat, I believe, is a word meant as an insult and doesn't really factor in enviorment. That why I prefer the term American Build. I'm not fat; I have an American Build. Medically, I'm obese. Nut when I look around I'm in a lot better shape than the other people I see and I'm physically capable. So screw it. I just need to lay of the ponderous amounts of beer and booze. This post should represent my dry humor. American build indeed.

Dear Feministers:
Does anyone want to venture out on why the feministing logo is so skinny with cartoonishly large breasts, and a size 0 waist?
I mean the raised fist and the extended finger suggests some kind of "in your face you repressive patriarchs" stance, but having Barbie giving feminist 'tude seems hypocritically inconsistent -but maybe I am missing some "secret symbology" or maybe some "we are reclaiming our power by choosing a symbol formerly used to oppress women" angle.
As a tangent, I hope the folks who believe that "pornography holds out an impossible physical standard that women are constantly compared to/compare themselves to" will acknowledge the many men who subscribe to "women of size" as their "physical ideal" -as evidenced by the many publications and internet sites that cater to men and women who prefer women who think The Venus of Willendorf is a total hottie ...er ummm, make that "exemplifies the ultimate in physical attractiveness while respecting Her thoughts and feelings in order to embrace Her as a 'whole person' and not 'objectifying Her' as a 'fecund symbol' conveying all there is to be conceived 'bout the nature of sexually mature femininity."
I am still looking for a working definition of "pornogrphy" that is different from the ideas of Edwin Meese and Andrea Dworkin (and Prof. Jenson's for that matter).
"Pornography" is always used here along with an implied pejorative sneer, and requisite commentary about patriarchal oppression.

For now, for me, the difference between "pornography" (patriarchal, exploitive, bad, boring, predictable)
and "erotic imagery" (empowering, good, exciting, nuanced, embraced by "sex-positive feminists")
...is lighting...

Your results are solicited.

Thanks,
Marlon

Like so many others, I have to say thank you for this post.
I am also a woman who struggles with PCOS, which largely affects my weight, along with some other less than pleasant side-effects.
It is so refreshing to hear a woman describe herself as fat, without it being a self depricating and insulting word. Although I am still working through my body issues, I fully appreciate what you are saying.
You, and every other woman who is working towards being comfortable with their bodies, are an inspiration.

Nice post! As a former personal trainer I can confirm the fact that in our culture there's a totally inaccurate equating of size with fitness. There are plenty of skinny flabby people out there. Believe me.

I'm also disturbed by the fact that people are so obsessed with your body after you have a baby. I gave birth almost 9 months ago. I have a high metabolism and didn't gain much during my pregnancy, but it's not like I was really working at it. I rode my bike to work and ate healthy (but not lowfat), but I wasn't dieting and did NOT try to limit my weight gain. However, EVERYBODY who saw me within a week or two of her birth ranted and raved about how flat my stomach was, that I was already wearing my pre-pregnancy jeans again, etc. And I did nothing to acheive this (except breastfeeding, which does take it out of you). At the same time, not a word about the fact that I had her totally natural - no epidural or other painkillers. That's the real accomplishment. That's worth ranting and raving about. But not one single comment. Everyone stood in awe of my flat stomach while ignoring the greatest physical accomplishment of my life. That's messed up.

Marlon, I would actually say that having her fit the so-called "ideal" is perfect.

Mudflap girls are the perfect display of chauvinism: they fit a narrow standard and exist solely for the visual stimulation of men. Having a mudflap girl flipping you off is in essence flipping off everything the mudflap girl represents, including the idiotic standards of beauty she represents.

So to me having her be skinny and "hot" actually emphasizes how ridiculous beauty standards are.

Another fat girl coming in to say Amen. :) I'm 5'1" and at my heaviest, I was 175. It doesn't sound like much, but for my height (and for the fact that I have very small boobs), I was officially obese. (And for the record: this was with proper fat measurements, not with BMI, which is flawed). I've gradually accepted that I will always be short and thick. All I have to do is look at my fingers and see what I'm supposed to look like. I have been trying to lose weight for my own good (everything about my waist/hip ratio is not a good indicator of future health), and it's been slowly working. But I've still accepted my body type, if not my present body.

I realize that I'm a victim of fat-shaming, mostly from me, really. Even though I know my efforts, even though I know I'm not a fat, lazy slob, I still see that in the mirror. There's no body dysmorphia, but there is shame. Still working on that. In the meantime, I'm a proponent of a good diet and exercise, no matter what your weight.

Great post. Know how you feel-I am a red head and thought I was fat. Struggled through a nasty disorder and now have an ass and boobs and I'm loving it. Girls need to hear more of this-bodies are wonderful no matter what size, shape, etc!

I love this post!

I absolutely, positively love this post. Like "bitch," "cunt," "slut," and many other words, feminists need to reclaim "fat" as to ensure it's not something viewed as "bad."

You went where no or very few other feminists have gone. Thank you.

Hey, I think that people use "fat" as a shorthand for "unhealthy," so if you exercise and tell your friends that you're fat, sure, they're going to look surprised and say that you're not fat. The fact is that in general, people who are overweight are more likely to be unhealthy - have high blood pressure, high cholesterol, more likely to be diabetic, etc. Not everyone who is overweight is unhealthy. Not everyone who is normal weight or under weight is healthy. And if your cholesterol and blood pressure are where they should be, that's great and it's wonderful that you're comfortable with your body. I just think that everyone should take care of themselves.

My mother was very overweight and I used to think she was relatively healthy. She wasn't - she had lupus, she smoked and she had really high blood pressure. And she died at 58 from a major heart attack. And I think about her when I don't want to go to the gym (okay, not as much as I should but I try) and I think of my family and how for me, exercise is about me choosing to live and choosing that I want to live past 60. I want to be around to get older and laugh with my brother and sisters and I want to take care of my father and grandparents.

After my mother's death, I went for a check-up and my doctor noticed that my cholesterol was higher than it should be, so I tried to make a few simple life changes. I tried to exercise 5-6 times a week instead of 4. I started eating oatmeal at the beginning of every day. Lucky for me, my cholesterol went down - not much but a little.

Anyway, I'm sorry this is rambly. If your cholesterol and blood pressure are in a good place, you're probably pretty healthy. But in general fat isn't healthy - it puts extra stress on your whole body. Just take care of yourselves, everyone. Even if you won't do it for you, take care of yourself for your family and the people that love you.

Like so many people here, I just want to thank you. I really hate this lie our culture believes that fat=unhealthy, skinny=healthy. Why can't we just admit that fat and skinny people can be unhealthy and that fat and skinny people can be healthy? And no, just like being fat, cholesterol doesn't always have to do with what you eat or how healthy you are. Thinness runs in my family. But low cholesterol does not. But--we also like to eat well, eat balanced. My mom has passed her healthy eating habits and her exercise habits down to me as well as her slightly high cholesterol. My mom gets bugged to get on medicine to lower hers every time she goes to the doctor. It's her choice to refuse take drugs, just like it's her choice to eat healthy and exercise often (she does both). While I'm still young, my cholesterol isn't at a concerning level, but my doctor did note that it's on the high end of acceptable and that I may have problems when I'm "older." The annoying thing was that when my doctor described to me all the things that I should be eating for a low cholesterol, she was describing my actual diet! Of course, the chick with high cholesterol is just like the fat chick--chowing down on big macs all the time. Oh, and give me a large order of fries.

Sure, there's been studies that link high cholesterol with bad health. Same thing for some studies on obesity. And there are still people who live long and healthy lives--being fat or having higher-than-acceptable cholesterol the whole time. And there are people who never exercise, eat horribly and drink a lot and don't have high cholesterol nor look particularly fat. Why can't we stop looking at general labels and actually look at how we live our lives if we want to judge who is healthy and who is not? It's just as dumb to assume that I'm automatically healthy because I'm thin just as it is to assume that I'm unhealthy because of my cholesterol. If you must make a judgment (and really, why?! Am I asking your opinion? Are you qualified to give health advice?) look at how I live on a daily basis. See how I never eat and greasy burger joints. See how I love salads from my garden and flaxseed in my smoothies. But really, unless I ask for your input, it's non of your business if I want to eat chicken-fried steak every day.

And don't get me started on fat=ugly, thin=beautiful. At one of my thinnest and most unhappy, stressed-out times in my life, all everyone ever said to me was "you look so good! You've lost weight!" I never needed to lose any fucking weight. The only person who actually noticed that I was underweight (besides my doctor) was a Spanish Lit professor. She was actually concerned for my well-being, like everyone else should have been. But then, she wasn't from the US...she was Latin American.

But enough rambling. I wish more people in this country could celebrate the beauty of their bodies as they are. Without having to mess around with a few pounds here or there.

Thank you, again, for this post, because in the end, why should we care what others think because of how they judge us?

We live in these bodies, not them. We should enjoy it.

The fact is that in general, people who are overweight are more likely to be unhealthy - have high blood pressure, high cholesterol, more likely to be diabetic, etc.

msunderestimated, your mother's health issues probably came more from her smoking than her weight. Smoking causes blood clots and other things that lead to heart attacks, so instead of thinking of her when you don't want out work out, think of her if you feel like lighting up. And obviously, if your cholesterol was high despite getting regular exercise, it's a genetic issue. I hope you have a doctor intelligent enough to have told you that, if not, you should probably seek a new one.

But in general fat isn't healthy - it puts extra stress on your whole body.

If you have weakened muscles because of a sedentary lifestyle, it might put some extra stress on your joints. But it also makes you more likely to survive a disaster, including but not limited to car accidents and heart attacks.

I recommend this site to you: http://www.junkfoodscience.blogspot.com

But thanks for being a glimmering (if slightly reworded) example of my personal favorite, as mentioned in the second paragraph supporting "fat does not equal bad."

Yes, my doctor told me that high cholesterol is largely genetic. At the same time, when I started working out more and eating healthier, my cholesterol dropped.

My father doesn't smoke and after my mother's death he basically stopped eating. The last time he went to the doctor, she told him he could stop taking his medicine for high blood pressure and high cholesterol because since he lost weight, his blood pressure and cholesterol went down.

Tim Russert's death really got to me because he was from the same area as my mother and they died at about the same age. He didn't smoke but he was overweight and he dropped dead just like my mom.

I said it before, I'll say it again - not all overweight people are unhealthy and not all normal or under weight people are healthy, but there's a definite correlation between being overweight and being unhealthy. If you're healthy and over weight, congratulations on beating the odds so far but that's not the best strategy long term.

Yay, fat acceptance!

@Paul and others who dislike the use of the term fat:

It's a reclamation. Of course it has negative connotations, but it doesn't have to, and it can have revolutionary ones if we let it. The argument against "overweight" and "obese" is that they imply a standard against which we must measure ourselves. If you're OVERweight, there must be a correct weight - otherwise, what are you over? "Obese" is a medical term, and while there are potential advantages to medicalizing large size (the most obvious being access to ADA rights) there are also drawbacks- it again implies that there is a correct weight that we are exceeding, and gives definitional power to the medical community, who have their own framework and personal interests, rather than leaving that power with fat people themselves. I'm not a fan of giving up that kind of power without a fight.

Marlon, check out www.fattyd.com. (NSFW)

Marlon,

Thanks for your two cents, even though your pornography tangent had very little to do with the original topic.

I'm sorry that you think we seem to equate all pornography with patriarchal oppression. We don't - at least not ALL of it. Just most of it.

In most mainstream porn, women are highly objectified. Their breasts have obviously been altered, their pubic hair is shaved or waxed, their hair is dyed and styled, make-up is over done - in short, they are made to look like everything real women don't resemble. A grown women has hips, stretch marks, body hair, and breasts that hang. And in most porn, the woman is there solely to please the man. It is not about giving and receiving pleasure, and seeing that her needs are being met too. It's about how many dicks she can fit in how many holes. There is no reciprocity. There is none of the sharing that happens that a couple would have during lovemaking. It's often violent towards and painful for the woman. It's absolutely degrading, and that's why we hate it.

Hey Marlon, I think other people would like to comment on that without feeling like they're hijacking this thread - can you start one to explore those ideas further? I'd be interested in reading it!

RE: I take the point that including positive body image is not exactly on topic in this thread: fat and fit, but I think that "what is attractive" and "how one who IS self-described as 'fat' could be sexually attractive" has relevance and resonance. BUT someone talking about "My Jiggling Sexiness" ...gets my attention.
Profound Sarcasm wrote:
"Sure, I've been different degrees of fat; before I started running I wore a size 24 and was hovering near 300 pounds, now I wear a 16 at 240-ish pounds. In high school, when I was on the swim team and had practice 3 hours a day 5 or 6 days a week, I wore a size 14. Aren't we supposed to be our skinniest when we're 17 or 18? If that's the case, 210 pounds is my skinny."
I think "Jiggling Sexiness" is sexually attractive, and if the opposite of "Jiggling Sexiness" is washboard abs on a rack of bones give me 300 pounds of "jiggling sexiness" any day, but maybe that is "sexist objectification" but I find Venus of Willendorf sexually attractive.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/Venus_of_Willendorf_frontview.jpg/333px-Venus_of_Willendorf_frontview.jpg
Anyway, this will be my last post here in this thread, but I am trying to write in different "communities" here at feministing.

@texasmomma:
you are making my point!
For starters you might define "pornography." "Erotic art is porn with good lighting" is a good start, (unless you're robert jenson, edwin meese, or andrea dworkin)
My Very Feminist Friend includes as women's porn "romance novels" that excitedly describe "Fabio" being "persistant in his arduous advances." My Very Feminist Friend calls them "Rape Romance Novels" and suggests you can walk into any Borders Bookstore and ask for them by that 'Genre."

texasmomma said:
"In most mainstream porn, women are highly objectified."
Query:
I have yet to have the term and history of "objectification" explained and defined. See my posts in other areas/communities of feministing, but, briefly, looking at my Mother's Hawaiian Landscape oil painting of Kaneohe Bay, makes me think of: my dead mother, that she was a great inspirational
artist, my time stationed in Hawaii instead of Vietnam, and more than i can say here, or i can just see it s an "object" thereby "objectifying" the whole experience it is, after all, just oil, canvas, and a wood frame. I would dare say that anyone looking at a naked body would have a similar range of experiences that could be reduced to objectification: it is after all just atoms, a body, flesh, etc. Is that how you feel about Venus de Milo?

texasmomma said:
"Their breasts have obviously been altered, their pubic hair is shaved or waxed, their hair is dyed and styled, make-up is over done - in short, they are made to look like everything real women don't resemble."
Response: So, any women who shave and dye their hair are not "real women?" women who get use make-up, facelifts and implants are not "real women?" Who are these "real women" that think that only women who fit your parameter are "real."
BUT: even according to YOUR definition of "real;"
f your research on "pornography" is limited to the convenience store magazine rack, or 60's era playboy/penthouse, then your point is valid.
If you are taking a serious overview of what folks are REALLY interested in, you would be surprised at the diversity of interests, especially when you get outside of the 18-25 demographic that convenience store magazines like Maxim are pointed at.
Texasmomma said:
"A grown women has hips, stretch marks, body hair, and breasts that hang."
Response: googling: "A grown women has hips, stretch marks, body hair, and breasts that hang" gets 373,000 results. Googling: "Sexy hips, stretch marks, body hair, and breasts that hang" gets 38,000 images.
Candid pictures are the most popular contribution to the web. Surely you can see that men's interest extend beyond the shaved enhanced barbie doll that you reference as your "typical model."
Go to google or yahoo adult communities, and you will find tens of thousands of groups that want the "real women" you describe. If you happen into any well stocked 'porn' store, you will find every conceivable physical type of women and men in most every conceivable combination, with every possible power dynamic.
TM said: "And in most porn, the woman is there solely to please the man. It is not about giving and receiving pleasure, and seeing that her needs are being met too."
Response: See above -and there is a lot of material that is devoted SOLELY to women receiving pleasure in every way that could be construed, if THAT is what one is interested in.
TM said "It's about how many dicks she can fit in how many holes."
Response: even though it is not my cuppa tea, i would imagine there well might be some women in the feministing audience that, from time to time, have imagined having that kind of sex, as long as it is ok with the holder of the holes and the dicks are respectfully filling aforementioned holes -are you going to second guess what kind of sex people pursue, or censor how that is graphically represented?
TM said: "There is no reciprocity. There is none of the sharing that happens that a couple would have during lovemaking."
response: Well, see all of above, but there is plenty of material where heterosexual and homosexual sex is shown as mutually satisfying. There is also material where men are subjugated and humiliated for a woman's pleasure -I suppose that would be alright for folks that want to see some "dominant paradigm justice" or role(playing) reversal.

"It's often violent towards and painful for the woman."
You can find that if that is what YOU are looking for, but I would not characterize "ALL pornography" as "violent and degrading" and I do not think that hyperbole aids in articulating a feminist position on "pornography."
TM: "It's absolutely degrading, and that's why we hate it"....
response: I do not think that you speak for feminism or feministers, but have at it everyone.
A final query: Are you objectifying ANYTHING by looking at it?
Thanks, Marlon

To profoundsarcasm83 - Congratulations on being healthy. It's awesome that you went from near 300lbs. to around 240lbs. Best wishes in the Komen Run. I ran it before in DC and was disappointed because there were a lot of people and they didn't separate the walkers from the runners so my time was pretty sad but I don't think you should worry about your time for your first 5K anyway. If you're a New Yorker and don't have plans for New Year's there is a wonderful race in Central Park on New Year's Eve that I'd recommend. Good luck!

Good for you! I'm so tired of hearing that fat = unatheletic.

For instance, my best friend is a track star at our school. She can run the mile in 5:10 (she's 5'1 and 162 Ib's). Whenever I point this out to someone: "Aurora can run the mile in 5:10", jaws drop and confused glances are be exchanged. It ticks me off.

Marlon, if you really desire clarification, "Jiggling Sexiness" was intended to be a declaration at body positivity. I jiggle (a lot) but that doesn't mean I can't love my body.

msunderestimated, I think we're dancing around a similar point - poor diet and a sedentary lifestyle are unhealthy. Simply being fat is not inherently bad for you, however, which I think is the point you have missed.

Tim Russert - my hometown boy as well - may have had a poor diet, he may not have gotten enough exercise, or he may have had a pre-existing condition we don't know about. He was a big guy, sure, but we don't know if that's because he was built that way or because he was living up to his roots and eating baskets full of chicken wings with blue cheese every night. Whatever led to his heart attack doesn't make it any less tragic that he passed at such a young age.

I'm sorry your dad went through that tough time. I'm going to assume you're at least smart enough to realize that completely not eating isn't a healthy way to lose weight.

If you're healthy and over weight, congratulations on beating the odds so far but that's not the best strategy long term.

Seriously? "Beating the odds?" I know I misspelled "condescension" in my original post, but I still know it when I see it. Again, though, I should thank you for being a shining example of the very kind of comment I was talking about. I suppose I should go back and remove what I said about dancing around the same point, because clearly I was wrong there. I am promoting a healthy lifestyle AND outlook, not act like someone being fat and healthy is a cute little joke or anomaly.

Rock on, profoundsarcasm! I aspire to being as healthy as you.

taxgirl1: "I decided to take all that mental energy I have previously used thinking about carbs... and used it to become a lawyer instead."

Yes! Imagine all the wonderful things women could do, imagine the difference we could make in the world, if we took all the energy we use thinking about carbs, diets, plastic surgery, makeup, treadmills (and so on, and so ON), and channelled it into politics, writing, mothering, working and loving ourselves.

I guess I'll just have to agree to disagree. Tim Russert's death wasn't just tragic because he was so young, it was tragic because it was preventable. Even if he hadn't changed a thing about his lifestyle, there's a good chance that having an AED and someone trained to use it nearby could have saved his life.

Odds are that if one is overweight, one is not healthy so I stand by that. That's about causation, though, not correlation. You mentioned that you have PCOS (my sister does too) and one of the symptoms of PCOS is weight gain. Being overweight can be a symptom of being unhealthy (like with PCOS) or being unhealthy can be a symptom of being overweight like developing high cholesterol.

However, there's nothing anomalous about someone who takes care of herself by eating well and exercising in addition to having a positive outlook being a healthy person.

Thanks so much for this post! This has really cheered me up, especially after an incident I had last night while running.

A little background...

I'm 5'4" and about a size 14 on the bottom. I was an athlete throughout high school and college, and I'm training for a triathlon now. I run regularly and I strength train, so I'm at about 210 pounds. People are always shocked to find out how much I weigh.

I'm very curvy with a bubble butt, C-cup boobs, and a small waist. I live in a neighborhood in Boston that's pretty racially diverse--about 40-50% White, about 30-40% Latino/a, and about 20% Black (I am white). When I get catcalled or hit on, it's most often Latino or Black men--white guys typically don't approach me (unless they're old enough to be AARP members).

Anyway, so last night...

I put on my stretchy running capris (I don't wear shorts because they ride up and give me chub rub) and head out to the park near my house to stretch before I start my run. On the way to the park (all of about 200 yards mind you) two Latino men sitting on the corner whistle at me and tell me they'd like to "bend me over." Whatever, it happens a lot, and I just ignore them.

Less than two minutes later, I pass this skinny white dude just before I get to the park, and he says to me, "You know, if you tried harder, you'd get better results." To which I promptly replied, "If you tried harder, you wouldn't be such an ignorant prick" before telling him to fuck off.

What. the. fuck. I should be working out harder because YOU don't like my body? Or, I should have thrown a little sumthin' sumthin' at the two guys who catcalled because they DO like my body? I was insulted not so much because that prick basically called me fat, but because he insinuated that I am lazy, and that's why I'm fat. I am definitely NOT lazy--I workout (hard) almost every day during the week. When I was 14, playing field hockey, and at my skinniest, I was still a size 10/12.

It really bothers me that some men feel that they have the RIGHT to publicly judge women's bodies (whether it be positive or negative). In both cases, those men aren't even looking for a specific outcome--the guys who catcalled know I probably won't stop and talk to them, and the dude who called me fat didn't expect that I'd just start running to please him. In both cases, it was about dominance and control even though it was coming from two different reactions.

Has anyone else experienced such wildly different reactions to their body? I have before, but the having such opposite reactions take place almost simultaneously really struck me. Also, has anyone noticed a difference in reaction based on race? (I'm not trying to be a racial determinist here--just wondering if the trend that I notice seems to happen to anyone else).

If you tried harder at what? I don't work out to lose weight, I work out because I love my body and my family and that's how I take care of myself and because I've got a marathon in less than three months and I want to get the best possible time I can.

I had a really great group of friends in college, many of whom were big, hairy guys. One of them definitely remarked that I have big thighs (which is true, all of the women in my family have big thighs and I run so tough shit). The guy who said might have weighed twice as much as me. Similarly at a New Year's party with these people, they decided to rank all of the girls' breasts. My breasts were ranked at the bottom.

I've read that cat-calling is more accepted in other cultures but I kind of don't care. You don't get to treat me with disrespect because you come from someplace different. Sorry.

Dear All:
Well since I have been recently called the "token enlightened male" here at feministing, I will venture out as "gender spokesman" here...
To All: I have posted regularly lately. I have a lot of respect for "the feminist agenda" as Rush calls it. Women and black folks saved my life in various ways; and much of my studies over 30 years have been related to their ideas about culture and art. A long time ago, I got used to variations of: "great, like we need the opinion of another old white guy -'you people' are the reason everything is so fucked up." ...but I think I know as much as the average bear about feminism and the African diaspora.
Thanks for Your Forum, but I am still soliciting a definition of "objectification" as in "you men ALL objectify women."
If someone can offer a definition and comment about this meme in Feminist Thought, we might get some insight into how different ideas/definitions affect dialog within the feminist community.
For now, I am suggesting that as soon as you look at someTHING, anyTHING, you are "seeing it" as an "object" -that is it has mass and shape, but I am not so sure that one is "objectifying" it.
Example: "That object over there has mass and shape." ...so is that "objectifying the object" -well I don't think so, you are just "seeing it" or "looking" at it, and describing it, maybe you are enjoying "it" for a variety of reasons, conscious and unconscious. Evidently, if "it" is a beautiful woman, and you are a guy, you are "objectifying" the beautiful "object," and don't get me started on "the nature of 'beauty.'"
Example: "My Very Feminist Lesbian Friend (VFLF) said: 'MY personal preference in FEMALE ASSES is that they have LARGE MASS and shapeliness, just like that nice ass jogging healthily down the path in front of us -isn't it the most desirable jiggling human form imaginable? I like to look at it, and prefer to look at it for as long as I can. Why would anyone not acknowledge this magnificent manifestation of the female form? Don't you agree, Old Jogging White Guy(OJWG)?'"
"'Yes'."
VFLF: (loudly) "whoo,nice ass girlfriend."
Jogging Venus of Willendorf turns and winks at VFLF...

Example by expansion of the "All Men objectify women" position:
"My Other Very Feminist Friend (OVFF) who was jogging along and listening to the conversation said: 'Old Jogging White Guy, you repulse me, and your obvious enjoyment of that ass is indicative of how males everywhere in all cultures want to exercise domination of women. Why can't you appreciate her as a whole person, instead of objectifying her ass as a sex object for you to use without providing her sexual pleasure? Can't You Stop Objectifying Women?'"
OJWG: "Um, I was just looking at something that I like to look at, I appreciate its beauty, form and motion. In addition, asses of that mass and dimension are deserving of appreciation in this modern world where the predominant cultural paradigm of the female form is reduced to a caricaturish boniness that is not my preference, and indeed i believe that men who exclusively prefer women with no hips or curves and "six pack abs" are secretly gay -not that here is anything wrong with that, but they are not recognizing the natural female in all of its fleshy grandeur. Perhaps I should have been born when people worshipped The Venus of Willendorf, because that is one Willendorfian ass in motion, and I am worshipping my concept of feminine beauty as it manifests here on the jogging trail."
OFF: "Well that just goes to show how all men are dominating sexist dogs/pigs -you are objectifying that ass."
OJWG: "Well let's get some definitions."

So, Ms. Valenti: can we get some "feministing definitions" in place? Can there be a "Feministing Urban Dictionary" where we can get some agreement about what these words mean
1. Objectification
2. Patriarchy
3. Pornography
4. Sexist
5. Misogynist
...and THEN let the rhetorical, gender based, dogmatic, institutional, and dialectical chips fly -with some agreement about what we are addressing.
..or we can just keep going with A Popular Current and Historical Reductionist Feminist View; "ALL men are part of a monolithic patriarchal imperative, and, by definition are misogynistic, sexist pigs that pornographically and violently objectify all women as sex objects whose sole use is being a debased, unfulfilled, victimized sperm receptacle. Anytime they look at any woman, that is what is happening."

...and just for the record, Venus of Willendorf is traditionally shaved...

Thank you all for your consideration, I truly hope that it contributes to intergenderal understanding, but I can back off some if y'all don't like my tone or disposition.

Sincerely, Marlon
Dancer, Texas

Marlon,

Lordy. Please, even if you are genuinely trying to create discussion and conversation and whatnot, posting long and disjointed comments on someone's community post doesn't strike me as the best way to do that. The point of the comment space on a post is to discuss that post and closely-related subjects - what you seem interested in discussing is not wholly related to this post and indeed should be a post in and of itself, simply out of respect for the other members and the author of the post.

It's not necessarily your "tone or disposition" that I have trouble with - it's the words you're sticking in others' mouths. No one here, as far as I can recall, as ever said "ALL men do this or that". I think the vast majority of people who read and post here would know that blanket generalizations are not just unintelligent but also hurtful - especially considering feminists are often the subject of them when they're thrown out by others.

As far as your difficulty with definitions, in my opinion you're being far too literal - and purposely obtuse, it would seem - with your befuddlement. Making a comment about an ACTUAL object's ACTUAL size and shape is not, in any universe I'm familiar with, the same thing as turning a HUMAN BEING into an object, which is what is essentially being done with women who are groomed into oblivion until they match the image in a man's imagination. When you "objectify" a person, you remove from that person anything that doesn't jive with what you want them to be and boil them down to only you're preferred traits, be they physical, mental, emotional, etc. It sucks the personality and individuality out of the person.

And by the way, no one here adheres to your Popular Current and Historical Reductionist Feminist View...except perhaps you. So maybe the real discussion you should be having is with yourself.

---------------------------------
To the OP - my apologies for contributing to the thread-hijack, but sometimes you just can't resist temptation, you know? Thank you for a wonderful post and for sharing your bright point of view on this subject. I hope it might help some readers who may have struggled with acceptance of their bodies to take a few steps closer to it.

Oh, crikey.

*edit mode*
>YOUR

Commenting at work = typos.

When I get catcalled or hit on, it's most often Latino or Black men--white guys typically don't approach me (unless they're old enough to be AARP members).

So it's not just me then. And it's true, different cultures have different beauty standards as well as different levels of acceptance on vocalizing their - ahem - attraction. Not judging on right or wrong, just pointing out what I've observed. (I've also observed that the skinny white guys that I usually happen to be attracted to are the ones that like, well, skinny white girls. blah.)

It's really NOT alright that anyone thinks my body is there for their public commentary, positive or negative (being checked out can be both). It's the same when people walk up to pregnant women they don't know and touch their bellies. Eeek, get your hands off me. Just because my body is outside the norm (or, you know, female) doesn't mean it's being presented for public scrutiny.

P.S. This post comes up at the top of the recommended posts on the main page. I enjoy that.

If you're fat and fit, good for you. Most fat people are NOT fit, so I wouldn't go around recommending that people not care about becoming fat. That's like saying most cigarette smokers don't get cancer so its OK to smoke.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree that you're perfectly healthy and noone else should think otherwise. I also agree that people unfairly tend think that fat people do not have the capability to manage themselves and are prejudiced. And as with most prejudices, as people get to know you, those prejudices will disappear as they realize you really are active and fit. But with most other people, "fat is not fit" isn't a prejudice; its a fact.

Becoming fat is unhealthy just like smoking causes cancer. Neither applies to everyone all the time. But exceptions don't make the rule; they prove it.

msunderestimated:

You said that being overweight can be a sign of being unhealthy, like having PCOS, and I just felt the needed to point out that having PCOS is not "unhealthy".
Most women with PCOS live perfectly healthy lives. It is largely a condition that has unfortunate, and often frusterating physical side effects, but a woman who has PCOS is not unhealthy, maybe just a little unlucky.
As a woman who suffers from severe PCOS related issues, I find it frusterating when people think I'm "unhealthy" because of it.

brrk, what you just said is incredibly offensive and prejudiced. You think you can say that most fat people are unhealthy, but you can't. You cannot tell by looking at a person what their health, diet and activity levels are. You're buying in to the prejudice fed to you by the media, and the hype of the so called "obesity epidemic."

And even for the fat people who are for whatever reason unhealthy, what give you the right to sit there and pass judgment on someone else's body and health? Unlike smoking, there's no such thing as secondhand fat. Our health is none of your business.

ms.meshuganer:
Thank you for you keen insight and commentary.
Lordy!
Points taken.
mm, you said -
Regarding Objectification: "As far as your difficulty with definitions, in my opinion you're being far too literal - and purposely obtuse, it would seem - with your befuddlement. Making a comment about an ACTUAL object's ACTUAL size and shape is not, in any universe I'm familiar with, the same thing as turning a HUMAN BEING into an object, which is what is essentially being done with women who are groomed into oblivion until they match the image in a man's imagination. When you "objectify" a person, you remove from that person anything that doesn't jive with what you want them to be and boil them down to only you're preferred traits, be they physical, mental, emotional, etc. It sucks the personality and individuality out of the person."
It is good for me to hear that, thank you for your insightful response, and your definition is a good one.
I am sorry you think I highjacked the thread, and apologies to author Profound Sarcasm, I am grateful for your fine contribution of "My Jiggling Sexiness..." to the "body image" community/commentary.
MissM thanks for the moderation.
The topics at hand are self image/ body image, fitness, "fat," and jiggling sexiness, and I think I understand objectification better now.
Lordy.
Marlon

Brava, profoundsarcasm83! I do hope, however, that you've perfected your f*&# off look for anyone who dares insult your gifts- especially the ones that fill out a track suit so well.

Big what's up to all the other runners on this post. As a chubby 5'2" girl getting a little closer to 30 every day, I've been getting more serious/disciplined about running in the last year, and it's been a lot of fun, really empowering. I've run off and on since I was 14, but it's only in the last year that I've started putting a little more into it, and getting a lot more out of it.

I have the exact opposite of a "runner's build", but I've found a few things over the last few years that have really helped me which I'd like to share. If I'm telling anyone stuff they already know, sorry, ignore me.

Change your shoes often. Every 6 months/500 miles or so (yes, this requires you to log your miles, but doing so is surprisingly rewarding). You can look up the recommendations online. This goes for EVERYONE but especially those of use who are carrying extra pounds. 30 isn't old, age brings its gifts, blah blah blah, but my knees aren't what they were when I was 18 and I'd like to keep them as long as I can. Shoes are expensive; joints, irreplaceable (for now).

Also, I totally hear you, wickedwench, on the chub rub. For that, I've really been digging the running skirts, which (can) have all the advantages of stretchy shorts but are much more flattering, at least for my body type. I've been loving my Atalanta skirts, but there are many brands out there. (... and it really sucks that you got catcalled, sorry to hear it. I used to get catcalled running through Inman square. bleh.)

Let's keep on trucking! Maybe I'll see some of you on the Charles River bikepath in Boston/Cambridge.

p.s. profoundsarcasm83, I ran my first 5k this march. It was totally a blast, and I did way better than I expected to! Hope you have fun.

Yeah, I think I'm starting to need new shoes.

As far as skirts...do they have shorts underneath, or are they just skirts? Because I couldn't run with just a skirt, the mere thought of it makes my inner thighs sear with pain.

Nakia, not only am I trying to perfect my fuck you face (too bad it doesn't translate into text for threads like this, lol), but I've mentally rehearsed several witty comebacks.

I'm not even going to dignify brrrk with a response.

profoundsarcasm, the skirts have stretchy shorts underneath that fit snugly and go down to mid-thigh. Otherwise they'd be a no-go for me!

So in love with this post. Thank you, thank you, thank you

Hey, I'm 5'6", a redhead and fat too! It's time for a fat girl revolution. Btw, I used to do taekwondo. Actually, I'm a 2nd degree blackbelt I was ranked 2nd in the province for my weight category. You don't get there by being out of shape. I'm out of shape now, it's true, but I've always been fat. I used to hate it, all the other girls had big muscular butts and thighs like me, but they had thin little waists and I just thought it was so unfair. My group of friends in highschool was definitly amoung the thinnest group of people at the school and I was sooo jealous. I'm out of high school now and I realise that curvy is sexy. Except for some belly fat (extra insulation for canadian winters, lol) I'm about the size of alot of pin up girls. Now of course, models are all a size 0 (damn, how thin are you if your size is too small for a number?) but it makes me happy to know I'm the same size marilyn monroe was.

wickedwench and profoundsarcasm -- that happens to me (at 5'6, 175ish lbs, fairly strong, pearish hourglass figure) ALL THE TIME. With exactly those racial divisions. I have been nervous to talk about it, because, well, it's difficult to discuss these issues frankly while also being sensitive to the racial issues involved. But yeah, exactly that happens to me pretty much every time I leave the house, and it's infuriating because I definitely don't want ANY comments at all -- I guess it just highlights how absurd the whole thing is in the first place, how absurd it is to expect that women should be getting some kind of diagnosis of their physical worth from men.

Regarding the OP and some comments to it -- What I really want to know is, TOTALLY REGARDLESS of what is and is not healthy, what in the world gives anyone the right to harass other people about their personal health? Maybe I will have some sympathy if it's a family member and you are genuinely concerned about terrible health habits that you have witnessed, but I just cannot wrap my mind around how incredibly rude it would be to actually make all these sorts of comments to someone in the real world, and for good reason -- my personal health, much like my sexual preferences, skill in bed, etc, is actually none of your goddamned business!

As an XXXXXL lady, I am very grateful indeed to the OP. She has encapsulated all my own rage against a society that makes assumptions about you because of size and people who just cannot stop giving you advice, as though you never thought of dieting till they mentioned it!

I've been dieting for 32 years and I've done every type of diet going: low fat, high-fat, meal replacement. Nothing works. I have PCOS, heredity, hyperinsulinism, hypoglycaemia and the menopause against me. Everywhere I go people make rude comments, ridicule me; everyone assumes I overeat (I don't) and I am everyday, everywhere, the butt of jokes.

I used to play tennis, badminton, I used to cycle or walk for miles. As I got heavier and heavier these had to be abandoned and now I do one hour's water aerobics a day and I have followed the Atkins Diet for 3 years. No loss, but I feel better on it and so am able to exercise.

My cholesterol and blood pressure are perfect.

Yesterday I went to visit someone on business. She's stunning, like a model, about 5ft 10, blonde, and very thin. Her cropped bra top and low slung jeans reveal a completely flat stomach. I noticed on her desk a pile of bags of crisps (in USA: chips), a large bar of chocolate and a can of Coke (non-diet) that she was about to scarf down for her lunch. I mentioned I'd just come from water aerobics and she said "Oooh, you are good, aren't you? I haven't done one minute's exercise since I left school 15 years ago."

At that point, I wanted to kill her. Or kill myself! OK I'm kidding, but the encounter made me feel profoundly depressed and really bad about myself for the rest of the day.

OP: "the fat person is automatically lazy and ill no matter how s/he lives, yet the aforementioned thin person eating a greasy burger is "lucky." Judgment will be passed on me ... but someone else's fast metabolism means they can abuse their own body and no one thinks twice."

This totally sums it up. People would probably look at this thin woman and assume that *she* is the one denying herself 24/7 and doing an hour's aerobic exersize 6 days a week, and that I'm the one who hasn't got off her fat behind for 15 years and lunches on sugary junk.

I'd like to see HER cholesterol readings!

Helena

IDOLECT:"What I really want to know is ... what in the world gives anyone the right to harass other people about their personal health?"

I often ponder that question. And I work on practising retorts to the abuse I get in the street: e.g.

They: "Why are you so fat?"
Me: "Why are you so rude?"

They: "Go on a diet!"
Me: "Go off a cliff!"

Help needed.

radfem, scroll up to my comment at 11:51 AM on 7/31 an click the link. There's a video with some great retorts.

I hate to admit that I'm probably one of those "lucky" ones you speak of, that semi-abuses my body in terms of a poor diet and eating habits (but I find myself slowly losing my ability to do so as the years go by).

For that reason, I definitely agree that thin people are not necessarily the "picture of health," and I think our society should have a broader "picture" that encompasses different body types and levels of fitness.

In addition to coming from a family of sticks, I'm a runner as well (Brava, profoundsarcasm83 - running is amazing!). I've still developed stretch marks though, and when my friends see them they can only sputter, "...but...but...you're SKINNY!" Yet another misconception.

I'm also relieved to see other people acknowledge how frightening the obsession over losing baby weight at lightning speed is. I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds it both scary and strange.

It really bothers me that some men feel that they have the RIGHT to publicly judge women's bodies (whether it be positive or negative).

AMEN WW!

Profoundsarcasm ~~~ Is that YOU? Are you Joy?

I watched the video and wept with joy that women are out there. I am fatter than the women in the video but so much of it is true. I have been working on retorts, I have a whole range of them. But I never had the guts to make a video.

So thanks, Profound, or whoever made the video and I am instantly in love with Joy. And my God she is a beautiful woman!

Invitation to read an outrageous rant against fatties lately published in a highly-respected magazine and to leave your comments on the article.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/the-magazine/features/825366/part_3/shouting-abuse-at-fat-people-is-not-just-fun-its-socially-useful.thtml#comments

I don't know whether this is interesting or not to you, but I thought it was interesting that you mentioned you're a red-head: in some cases there's actually a genetic link between having red hair and being overweight. I don't really know anything about it, but Armand Marie Leroi mentions it briefly in his book "Mutants: On Genetic Variety and the Human Body."
And I love your post, I eat much healthier than any of my skinny friends and have a brown belt in tae kwon do and am so sick of feeling like everyone's judging me if I eat something not made entirely out of vegetables!

I'm yet another woman that agrees with this post. More women should learn to embrace their size and more people should understand that fit and healthy are not adjetives for fat.

Thanks for this. I'm a lifelong eating disorder recoverer. I'm a healthy weight now but when I was undersized I got credit for being healthy with the worst nutrition plan ever (three red bulls and a milky way a day). I have to remind myself all the time that my new fit healthy body is better because it helps me enjoy life more and hopefully live longer. People always say how bad obesity is for health but life expectancy for an anorectic woman is only 35

first and foremost, thank you for this post! a couple nights ago while laying in bed prior to actually falling asleep, i was thinking about how i'd love to see a post like this on feministing.

i'm 5'9.5 and around 240 lbs. and a size 16. i'm fat, but not fit. i have never been interested in sports. sure, i love a good bike ride in the summer (and cross-country skiing in the winter) but i have never enjoyed playing sports, dancing, or anything of the like. however, i have no medical conditions that are directly or indirectly related to my weight, and no reason to lose any of it. i imagine my "ideal" size would be a size 14, which was what i wore prior to gaining an extra 20 or so pounds this past year, and i would likely lose it by changing my eating habits a bit. i don't eat as much fast food as my (thinner, but still not really thin) friends do, or drink pop the way my (much thinner) sister does. i have a chicken burger and fries every month or two, with subs, pitas, or edo japan (rice with stir-fried veggies and lean meat) a couple of times inbetween. but i am still a bit of an emotional eater, and there is nothing more comforting than and sugary iced coffee drink piled high with whipped cream (yum!).

i have to say that the worst thing i have gotten is that i "could be so pretty if i lost some weight." i... COULD be pretty? COULD?!?! no, i am beautiful the way i am, right now. and how do you know that if i lost 50 pounds my face wouldn't turn into that of a reptile? or more likely, that my cute round face would be cute no more?

Yeah, I love the "fat is unhealthy" crap. I'm a fat vegan, and I bike 16 or so miles most days of the week.
Usually the people telling me I'm unhealthy are thin, fast-food eating, binge drinking classmates.
It makes me giggle.
The worst comments I ever got were from my Grandmother: "such a pretty face, if you'd just lose weight". She was evil.
:D

Lovely post.

I totally agree that being fat does not necessarily have to mean being unhealthy or out of shape. I run, lift weights and swim, and even though I'm a size 16 and 210 lbs I can still run circles around my 19 year old size 9 daughter. It all comes down to feeling good enough about yourself to believe that you deserve to be happy in your own body no matter what size you are. I've always been heavy, but my lean muscle to fat ration isn't reflected in the numbers on the scale. By insurance chart standards I'm clinically obese, but my resting heart rate is 65 and my lung capacity is 116% of normal. The hard part about being fat is learning not to care about other people's opinions and blocking out the rude comments and mockery by complete strangers. I like to do physical things, and sometimes people are surprised to see just how much I can lift or how long I can run on a treadmill. Sure, I'd like to be a svelte size 6, but that's just not physically possible for me. I've never been smaller than an 11, and I only maintained that size by barely eating, and by exercising 2 hours every day. I'm trying to love myself, but sometimes it's hard when you are the subject of criticism by everyone from your own mother to complete strangers in foreign countries. I was on vacation in Hong Kong recently, and while eating at a restaurant, two white, older foreign tourists started mocking me, mimicking me eating and it so infuriated me that I actually just gave them the finger. Needless to say they were shocked and turned away. Why was it necessary to have to do that? Why am I fair game? I didn't ask for this body, and I'm trying my best to learn to live in my own skin, but stuff like this just makes it more difficult. That was way off topic, but the gist of the matter is that I am large, but not lazy, not unhealthy and not worthless just because of my size.

Profoundsarcasm ~~~ Is that YOU? Are you Joy?

No. I'm not that awesome, lol. I just got the link to that video off various size positive blogs, like Shapely Prose and Big Fat Deal.

Daaantaat - I went to China in 2006, and I was probably close to the fattest I've ever been. I didn't have anyone directly comment or mock me (that I saw) but I had to argue with the woman selling "I Climbed the Great Wall" t-shirts. I asked for a men's medium, which is what I would get so they fit more like women's shirts. The woman insisted I needed an XXXL. We went back and forth a bunch of times, "medium" "three X" "no, medium!" "three X!" until finally I said I know I'm fat, but I do NOT need a 3X, and decided to concede a little so the people behind me could get their shirts, so I pointed at the 3X tag, covering the X's so she brought me a large. I admit the shirt did run a little small (or maybe I was running larger than I thought at the time) so the large fit like I thought a medium would, but in no way did I need XXXL. Maybe it was a language or culture barrier, but I was really annoyed that she was telling me what size she thought I needed and would not listen to what I wanted. Also, this was a marching band trip and I did not appreciate having this argument in front of basically everyone I knew.

Halo - I was a vegetarian for 7 years. I felt a lot healthier most of the time, but it didn't have an effect either way on my weight. People kept saying to me, you must have lost so much weight when you stopped eating meat, and I was like, no, because I replaced the meat with comparable non-meat products, as opposed to living on Easy Mac and apples like a some veggies do at first.

Sonia - I know that line. It's crap. I would like to think I'd reply "you could be such a great person if you weren't a complete dick!" but I don't know if I'd have the guts.

bimama - have you ever been to The F-Word? It's a size positive eating disorder recovery blog. It's great, I read it even though I've never had an ED.

Hi clarityinprint, would you mind explaining a little more? I just don't understand what you mean that PCOS is "a condition that has unfortunate, and often frusterating physical side effects" and how a "a woman who has PCOS is not unhealthy, maybe just a little unlucky." I'm not trying to be insensitive or insulting and I recognize that "most women with PCOS live perfectly healthy lives" but it doesn't make sense to me that you said that on the one hand, PCOS has unfortunate side and frustrating side effects and someone who has it may be a little unlucky but on the other hand a woman who has it is healthy. I think my mother had PCOS and she had a hard time conceiving. That to me sounds like a health problem.

I have brown hair and I'd consider myself relatively healthy but my brown hair does not come with unfortunate or frustrating side effects (that I'm aware of) and I wouldn't consider myself unlucky for having brown hair and as far as I know my brown hair won't prevent me from doing anything like getting pregnant. I also have had severe depression and when I did I would consider myself unhealthy because I had unfortunate and frustrating side effects.

The entry on PCOS on WebMD says it can cause problems with your period, inhibit your ability to get pregnant, cause unwanted changes in the way you look, depression, acne, and if left untreated can lead to diabetes and heart disease. That doesn't sound healthy to me. I don't know what you mean by "severe PCOS related issues" and I'm happy to hear that you don't consider yourself unhealthy. I just don't get it.

Thank you for writing this.

I have a self-confessed bias against obese and extremely overweight people. It's something that I know is wrong, and that I try to quell, but despite my ratinalizations, when I see someone who is morbidly obese, my first instict is to assume that said person is lazy, lacks self-control, etc. I always try to remind myself that for some people, legitmate health issues are the cause, and in other cases, it's a personal preference. It's something I have been feeling guilty about for years, yet I cannot stop that knee-jerk reaction. This posting is something for me to think on in the future.

PCOS has unfortunate side and frustrating side effects and someone who has it may be a little unlucky but on the other hand a woman who has it is healthy.

First off, reading is a good thing; she said women with PCOS can lead perfectly healthy lives, not that they are definitely healthy. Yes, it's a health problem. But as a reproductive issue, it's not one that actually endangers your life. It impedes regular menstrual cycles and can effect fertility. It has hormonal side effects that can lead to weight gain and other things (like chin hair - ugh!). The mention of diabetes and heart problems are a very, very small percentage and a minute chance. Having it may have some issues and risks, but it does NOT impede your ability to live a healthy lifestyle and take care of yourself.

I'm happy to hear that you don't consider yourself unhealthy. I just don't get it.

Sounds a lot like "congrats on beating the odds" to me. Condescending about something you haven't actually experienced.

Kayla, I'm really glad to hear you're trying to change your mindset. This might be a good article to read if you want to learn some more. Actually the whole blog it's on it awesome.

I don't know why you think I'm so condescending. I've mentioned that I have several family members who have dealt with some of these issues. They don't think I'm condescending. Oh well.

In general, I think that there's a culture whereby people think that as long as they're walking and talking, they're healthy. For example, I was on the phone with my father one day when I said that my future father-in-law had diabetes but otherwise he's healthy. My father stopped me and pointed out that one cannot have diabetes and be healthy. And he's got a point. Lots of Americans die from diabetes-related complications every year. My FFIL was almost one of them. That's not healthy.

Similarly, after my mother's death, people asked me if she was healthy. I said she was healthy but she was morbidly obese, had high blood pressure, high cholesterol, lupus and smoked. That's not healthy.

To some extent I think that this is a coping mechanism to deal with things that we can't change. My mother didn't think that she could lose weight or stop smoking so she stopped going to doctors because they would tell her to lose weight and stop smoking.

Part of the grief I feel is because I feel like in some respects she was digging her own grave. She couldn't change that she had lupus but she could have tried to lose weight and stop smoking. Doing either likely would have added years to her life. I know it's not easy but I also know people do it everyday.

One of my favorite teachers from grade school who was a colleague of my mother's had always been morbidly obese. She started working out, eating better and had gastric bypass surgery. I didn't recognize her at my mother's funeral. My mother talked about this teacher's weight loss and how impressed she was but there's no reason she couldn't have done it too. Maybe if she had she'd be helping me plan my wedding and be alive to give me away.

Anyway, I'm not a doctor. I just think people should take care of themselves. Part of that is being honest with yourself about your health and taking responsibility for it. I recognize that I'm at higher risk of developing heart disease so I exercise, try to eat well and stay in touch with my doctor. If you won't do it for yourself, do it for the people you love. If saying that is condescending, please know that it comes from the heart.

Even my weight-and-exercise-obsessed (and skiiiiinny) father-in-law, a doctor, can bring himself to admit that "it's mostly about the cards you're dealt," when it comes to weight and shape.

Judgement of a person isn't acceptable because they have size 7 1/2 feet, nor for having long or short fingers, compared to the length of their palms. Why should people assume things about someone and judge you based on the size and shape of his or her body?

Additionally (speaking as a recovered anorexic and recovering bulimic), why, OH WHY must one always greet or be greeted with "You look great!" WHY? Oh my god, I get so tired of hearing that (both from others and myself) (though I'm getting better at stopping). What about, "Gee, you seem happy today," or, "Great to see you! You seem full of energy today. Get some good news or something?"

PROFOUND SARCASM:
CONGRATS ON YOUR ARTICLE THAT KEEPS GENERATING COMMENTS!

WICKED WENCH SAID:
"I'm very curvy with a bubble butt, C-cup boobs, and a small waist. I live in a neighborhood in Boston that's pretty racially diverse--about 40-50% White, about 30-40% Latino/a, and about 20% Black (I am white). When I get catcalled or hit on, it's most often Latino or Black men--white guys typically don't approach me (unless they're old enough to be AARP members).
Anyway, so last night...I put on my stretchy running capris (I don't wear shorts because they ride up and give me chub rub) and head out to the park near my house to stretch before I start my run. On the way to the park (all of about 200 yards mind you) two Latino men sitting on the corner whistle at me and tell me they'd like to "bend me over." Whatever, it happens a lot, and I just ignore them."
MARLON SAYS to Wicked Wench:
Wow, from your self description you sound like you could be somebody's sweet dream. i understand why you do not want public catcalls, positive or negative, but let's stick to the "cultural attitudes" of "the guys" you mentioned.
Black men are well known for loving big butts, "Baby Got Back"...etc., Part of this is that black women are known for -as Whoopi Goldberg says, "BWA" so I feel that black men's attitude references black women -or at least a black woman's shape. Same for the Latin guys -generally there is more appreciation within these cultures for curvier women, even "fat" women, than there is within 'white" culture.
WICKED WENCH, You have two white guys: one is young and skinny, the other is "old enough to be an AARP member." I am drawing a hypothetical conclusion that your preference is "young" white guys 18- 35; but they are always going for "The Maxim Girl" and have since high school. I surmise you do not have a preference for black or latino guys in the same age group who have a cultural affinity for big women.
You don't like old white guys ...because they are ...well...old.
CAVEAT:
Now I admit to a reductionist view to prop my point, and I would imagine that if you, Wicked Wench, met a moderately attractive man or woman of any age or color who had an open heart, the capacity to love and be loved, owned their own car, had a job and some shared artistic values, that you could be loved by them, and could love them right back, right?
It would also be pretty nice if they found YOUR "Jiggling Sexiness" to be THEIR IDEAL EXPRESSION OF FEMININE FORM -just the way it is.

I have reread these comments in Profound Sarcasm's "My Jiggling Sexiness" and am amazed that there has been so little posted about how sexy and attractive fat women are. No one, has said that an extremely fat venus of willendorf kind of woman could be REALLY attractive to someone, and in fact, many of the women who have posted comment about how they would feel better if they were thinner, or exercised more, or ate better, or stopped smoking, etc.
Nobody has anything to say about the men who find them sexually, erotically, physically, attractive just the way they are.

Now there is significant "objectifying women" and "porn holds 'regular' women to 'unrealistic' standards" rhetoric from folks who believe that "all men" want Barbie... but that's sort of a silly reductionist perspective, too -right?

My Very Feminist Friend is 30 years old, an Master Science Candidate, size 16, 'bout 200 pounds, caucasian, with a "dynamic profile" (big boobs and butt, narrow waist), big green eyes, beautiful smile, dynamic in every way including being a great social dancer. She is a goddess in any way that could be described: smart, funny, educated, beautiful, and physical in a way that is just not available to some size 4 twig (apologies to the size 4 twigs out there). I love it when she dips me!
...when we walk out, black men and latin men of all ages HAVE to holler all kinds of things, but I believe the appreciation is genuine -and she is in every way, a walking embodiment of empowered female.
She just doesn't like black men, or mexican men as (potential) partners. She does not consider them as "marriageable" or "a serious relationship." I don't perceive it as a "racialist" thing, she has many black and latino friends, and does a lot of social work for minority communities.
As she grew up in high school, she became aware that she had a physical presence that was not appreciated by the boys/men that she wanted; they wanted Barbie, not somebody that could bench press more than they. She began to become aware of "other" kinds of men who could appreciate her uniqueness.
Now, at thirty, she is very clear of her "preferred demographic."

Young (skinny) white guys 18-35 will ALWAYS go for Barbie. I do not think that is an unfair reduction and yes, I know about "cougars" and "milf" but overall, i think my idea is true, and most of my young male friends corroborate my ideas. They won't even dance with my VFFriend because they say that "she's fat," or even "she's too old."

For my part, I don't think I had a genuine personal thought until I was 35.

Anyway, wicked wench, I think you suggested that the AARP guy wasn't rude, and he seemed appreciative, and my VFF is always looking for Sean Connery in a cowboy hat. I believe that once a man gets to be a certain age, that his appreciation of all types of women ...broadens...beyond culturally ascribed stereotypes.
...and I hope that "jiggling sexiness" will someday be as appreciated as "washboard abs" ...but i doubt if it will ever come from the targeted demographic of Maxim Magazine.
I thank My Goddess of Willendorf that there ARE other kinds of guys out there, and "the times they are a-changin.'" I am saying that there are MANY MEN who love curves; do a google image search for SSBBW, and see what you get.
"Dance with who brung ya" was one of Ann Richards' favorite expressions...My teacher always said "go where you are wanted."
Maybe it is sexist objectification, but if a woman who self describes as "very curvy with a bubble butt, C-cup boobs, and a small waist" in "stretchy capris" ran by, it would definitely get my appreciative attention. If I happened to have her in my arms on the dance floor, I would politely compliment her ear rings, or whatever. If she smiled, I would thank her for the dance, and perhaps add, "you have a lovely physique," ...and most all women appreciate a genuine appreciative compliment, especially women who don't think they fit the "norm" for beauty.
Anyway, ...like we need to hear from another member of the dominant paradigm...
Thank you for your consideration, and thank you profound sarcasm.
Sincerely, Marlon

PROFOUNDSARCASM, WICKEDWENCH, MISS.MESHUGANER:

Soliciting your comments.

THANK YOU,
marlon

very nice, short, simple blog with a powerful message :-D

Hi - I'm new to this discussion, but I just wanted to respond to something that Marlon said in his last post.

I have read through most of the comments in response to this (fabulous, by the way) post and I did, in fact, find it interesting that, for all of the talk about acceptance of one's self and of others, no one has ventured so far as to suggest that a "fat" figure is as legitimately beautiful as any other. I feel that my perspective on the issue may be slightly biased, but it is real, nonetheless. My mother is 5'6", red haired, and self proclaimed fat. She is also one of the most beautiful women I've ever seen. Perhaps my affinity for full figured women is simply a manifestation of a daughter's love for her mother, but, though she has her flaws, I can't help but admire, even as she ages, her beautiful smile, the way her full face frames her features, the way her hazel eyes stand out against a back drop of freckles, and the way her long layered hair flows around her broad round shoulders. Sometimes I look at pictures of her at my age and I'm proud to see the resemblance. I've never once imagined that the shedding of a couple hundred pounds would uncover anything more beautiful in my mother that hasn't already shown through a thousand fold.

That said, my mother is, to date, obsessed with the fantasy that one day she'll undergo the plastic surgery that will make her beautiful again. The idea that, under my mother's brilliant smile, there might be a woman burdened beneath years of discrimination and hurtful "suggestions" hurts me as deeply as if it were me. Whether or not an individual is or is not leading a healthy lifestyle is an individual choice and it sickens me that the same people who make assumptions about people's health choices based solely on their weight are the same people who pick up issues of cosmopolitan and pine over models whose malnourished hearts are steadily shrinking. I'm not trying to make unfair generalizations in the opposite direction: not all fat people are unfit and not all skinny people are anorexic, but it troubles me that, as a society, we seem to be much more comfortable with the latter. I believe this attitude is especially evident in the recent non profit and government campaigns launched to fight "obesity" as if we were waging a war on a "nasty disease", when what we ought to be fighting is a the war on "poor health" or "malnutrition" or "really f - ing awful eating habits across the board". The war on "obesity" in all of its forms , a war highly publicized and printed in green on the side of cereal boxes (smart choices, everyone!), doesn't seem to address the REAL problem of general poor health - whether you're keeping them down or throwing them up, you shouldn't be wolfing down greasy hamburgers three meals a day - we shouldn't be waging wars on obesity (a term that immediately brings to mind images of the overweight), we should be promoting nutritional common sense and ACTUALLY making realistic strides to promote a more eclectic interpretation of personal beauty.

lol on "They: "Why are you so fat?"
Me: "Why are you so rude?"

They: "Go on a diet!"
Me: "Go off a cliff"

hahahaha perfect!!!

I used to be *really* hung up on weight as a fitness issue. Then I heard about studies that say fat isn't the issue in itself and overweight people can still be fit (therefore, healthier than thin people who eat junk and do no exercise at all).

So yes, anytime anyone links fat to health, it's important to correct them.

I'm glad I found this out myself. I no longer get anxious about being overweight and have accepted my XXL size, since I can still cycle, swim, walk, and go snowshoeing and skating. My main criteria is the ability to do things I enjoy doing. As long as I can do them, I'm doing fine in the body size department (if not in everything, which is a separate issue).

Another thing that irritates me no end is when the "fat" remarks come from pot-bellied old balding guys. Like maybe they should look in the mirror!!!