Hi!

As a radical feminist from Norway, I might have another viewpoint than most americans. But I'll try not to bore you with my personal opinions on the "sex trade" as a whole.

I believe that the reason for why your customer and a lot of other men have that kind of thoughts can be explained by what they are getting out of the "trade" in the first place.

Watching you dance is never only a sexual experience, there will always be a certain illusion of having power over you, an ego boost, even if only subconciously. You could say that it's all an elaborate power play and they have paid to have the upper hand.

I guess your customer is relating to this, but that he was caught of guard by you snapping back at him.

I can understand how irritating it can be to become aware of expectations you didn't know you had to relate to. The norms of society can be exhausting to fight on the individual level. So just flip the idiot the bird. 'cause the world wont change "one by one". Sad but true. Fight the structures, not the symptoms.

I just want to applaud you. This is a huge double standard and good on you for calling him out on it.

Yeah, no shit. I think it's great you called him out on his crap.

And I agree with you - no sex worker is worth less than any other person because of his/her line of work.

My only concern with sex work is force or pressure, which doesn't seem to be a problem with you, so I don't see how it isn't a feminist choice.

Being a sex worker does not make me less. Less of a woman, less of a feminist, less of a person.

amen. great post. i've had this same conversation before. i hate this attitude that a lot of customers have. i just don't get how they think that strippers are so morally bad but they aren't, even though they are paying for it. i honestly think some go to stripclubs simply to feel superior. it's pathetic.

interesting read. thanks.

Bravo. Bravo for standing up to him and for coming here and posting! I could not agree with your perspective more and have the utmost respect for exotic dancers and sex workers.

I think it is great that you were able to sum it up so well for him: "Why? Are women not allowed to be sexually expressive? Are we not to be sexual?"

Woohoo! Double standard indeed. I recall back in the day (when I was a preteen and home sick meant a day of Maury and Montell) watching TV. I can't remember what daytime show it was, or the topic, but I clearly remember a well-spoken, well-presented young woman paying for her college by dancing. She was also involved in her school's sporting community. One night while she was dancing, the boys from her track team all walked in with their coach, all wearing their school athletic jackets, shirts and hats. When the coach spotted her, she was immediately kicked off the team and he tried to have her expelled for "representing the college in that light". Anyone else see the sick double standard in this story? There was nothing identifying her as a member of the college, no one knew where she was from, yet all the men from the college could show up to watch the naked dancers with their logo emblazoned all across them, and that's not a problem at all. Thank you for telling your story, I think it's the type that a lot more people need to hear. I've never thought less of dancers, thankfully; my cousin is one, she's an amazing person, unfortunately after learning of her life choice I am the only family member that still talks to her. Our family thinks she is now beneath us. I am so glad to have a strong role model like her, and it breaks my heart that I have to be the one to send her pictures of her little sisters because she isn't allowed to see them anymore, lest she corrupt them.

Ah, yes. I cocktailed in strip joints for a few years during and after college, and I remember this attitude of the customers'. My interpretation is that it's a classist/power thing as well as a sexist thing. Who is buying? Men. Who's selling? Women. The power is often in the hands of the buyer in a market economy, unless the good being sold is a necessity (such as oil/gas). So in my mind, it's similar to the attitude an employer might have toward a nanny, a cleaning lady, or someone else who provides manual labor or "unskilled" services for them. They feel that they are in a position of power and higher social class, so they look down on the person providing the service even though they are happy to pay for it.

God men are pigs!

At the end of the day men just think about one thing - having sex and dominating women.

Let’s face it, what have the brutes achieved so far? War, rape, child pornography. All fuelled by there insatiable ego and desire to have intercourse! I almost feel sorry for them.

The thing about sex workers is that they are being objectified by men, and they don't seem to realise that they are fuelling an industry which degrades and devalues women. This is why although one may chose to become a lap dancer because it provides good money they are betraying other feminists who refuse to accept the culture of women as 'sex objects'. By dancing for a man the only value you have to him is your body.

This is why pornography and other mediums in which you chose to 'be sexually expressive' should be prohibited - young girls who only value materiel possessions are prostituting themselves and promoting the objectification of women.

God men are pigs!

At the end of the day men just think about one thing - having sex and dominating women.

Let’s face it, what have the brutes achieved so far? War, rape, child pornography. All fuelled by there insatiable ego and desire to have intercourse! I almost feel sorry for them.

The thing about sex workers is that they are being objectified by men, and they don't seem to realise that they are fuelling an industry which degrades and devalues women. This is why although one may chose to become a lap dancer because it provides good money they are betraying other feminists who refuse to accept the culture of women as 'sex objects'. By dancing for a man the only value you have to him is your body.

This is why pornography and other mediums in which you chose to 'be sexually expressive' should be prohibited - young girls who only value materiel possessions are prostituting themselves and promoting the objectification of women.

Hello,

Thank you for your post. I am a French sex worker currently living in London. I met the same kind of situations with my clients but actualy with everyone.

I really think that as sex workers our feminism can be usefull for all women and minorities because we know men in their intimacy and so are more able to analyse domination mechanisms.

I think female sex workers are the strongest women I met and they taught me much more about feminism (in the practice and not only in theory) than any others.
I think that in sex work, the fact that the sexual contract is clear and that we impose our conditions before sex leads to a more equal relationship.

Sex workers are the only women I know who dare to go out in public places during nights.

I wish that one day we could ally with other feminist and stop seing each other as foes.
Unfortunatly many sex workers see the feminists as moralistic and men-hateful persons and thus lose so much from what feminism brought.
It's pity when the sex workers' movement is born from feminism and that we can give in return.

Thierry

Thank you for this post!

Good post!

I think the men who visit strip clubs view the dancers as beneath them because, in their minds (thanks to patriarchy), finding a woman sexually appealing is degrading to her. Sex and violence are very closely linked in their minds.
They don't "get" that it's a double standard because THEY are not devalued or degraded in sexual encounters - it's always the woman who's dominated and dehumanized.

...Also, because some men have fucked-up attitudes about women and sex (virgin/whore complex), they are unable to simultaneously respect a woman and find her sexy.
Once they begin to respect a woman as an individual, they no longer see her as sexual (and vise versa).

I'm glad you were able to get the customer to think about the double standard he made between you two. Men think they can do whatever but women still have to be kept in boxes of acceptability. Or at least certain women do, right?

Sex work is an issue I grapple with and I'm interested to learn more about your and other women's experiences.

Because the male gaze & approval is so desired, I think I can understand why it might be fun or gratifying or empowering work (in addition to the other reasons you say why you do it like pay and flexible schedule) but at the same time, so many men generally have so little respect for women that I would be worried about what they're actually thinking. Would I just be contributing to the pervasive idea that a woman's main value is her attractiveness/sex appeal? On the one hand sex workers can exploit the idea and benefit from the money men are willing to pay but at the same time do they perpetuate that idea? Or do we just need to get more male strip clubs going to make it more even?

I feel I'd also wonder about the customers and think, why gratify an unknown man in such an intimate way when he could be an abusive, sexist jerk? I don't know. I was raised in a very conservative religion and I know my views of sex are tainted by my upbringing and I'm kind of a puritan. But it is really important to me to never be intimate with anyone I don't feel respects me.

I also have a problem with how it's primarily men paying women for sex or to see them naked etc. If a similar number of women were also going to see men, I would feel sex work to be less exploitive of women and more just a sexual experience. It just still seems like a power thing to me. "I'm powerful and have money so you take off your clothes and be my fantasy, let me evaluate you, etc." Plus, stories about the high risk of abuse of sex workers by customers and a statistic I remember hearing that something like 70% of either prostitutes or sex workers were sexually abused when they were younger make me wary of the sex industry in general.

But if you and other people who posted on here don't feel that way and feel empowered, feel safe, etc, then I am really glad and people like me need to get educated about how things really are.

Great article.

I am however, disappointed by some of the comments I'm reading. Most specifically those who are suggesting you, as a sex worker, will always be stuck under the male gaze, commodification, objectification and blah blah blah.

First - we as women are almost alway living with the male gaze, and objectification. Does this mean we should hide away because walking down the street can lead to this? Hell no. Does this mean someone should not work as a sex worker because of it? I say HELL NO. You wrestle with your own thoughts on this one.

Second - I caution anyone who thinks they have the rights to put their perception of my experience in place of my actual experience.

I'll write more on my own blog when I'm not on the company's dime.

I think this double-standard is related to another that I've written on my blog...and that is that the men who will gladly go to strip clubs or look at women posing for porn but would not "let" their girlfriends do the same. As in, they have no problem looking at other women naked but don't want anyone looking at "their" girlfriend naked.

And I think part of the reason why points to that same issue of power and control that is the undercurrent of why it's ok for them, but is something they don't recognize in their own motivations.

The other part of this I think has to do with wanting sole "property" and "ownership" while wanting group ownership and entitlement (as men) to the community of sex workers. I think most men want the privilege of access to women who fulfill their sexual needs but don't want them be anyone they know--friends, family, etc.--they should be anonymous women who's sole purpose is to fulfill their sexual desire. I think a lot of men know they're objectifying and feel power even when they say they're not...otherwise, why would sex work be "below" anyone? And why couldn't your girlfriend do it--if it's no big deal to watch a dance why can't she dance.

Double standards all around...

So, it's funny how when you ask about sex work online, on websites mostly frequented by liberal feminists with a certain amount of cash and a certain lack of color, you get a lot of "OMG IT'S MY BODY AND ANYBODY WHO POINTS OUT THAT THIS CHOICE IS SOMETHING WHICH REINFORCES PATRIARCHY IS A BAD WOMAN WHO HATES ALL WHORES."

If we were in the real world, where over 90% of sex workers on the planet want to GTFO, where the majority of sex workers can be said to be living in slavery, we'd probably get a much more honest appraisal of what sex work is and how it functions in a patriarchy.

These are the women that men fuck in order to remind themselves that all women are subordinate; these are the women that men fuck in order to remind themselves that they always always always must have access to pussy and that a woman is a commodity you come inside and that when you can't buy it you should be allowed to rape it. These are real women who suffer, and addressing them from your atronomical levels of privilege, telling them about your free, fun, and sexy choice, is a bit insulting when you are the upscale version of what's being done to them and they are suffering such horrid abuse.

Did the big bad feminists make you feel icky at some point for being a sex worker? That's tough cookies, kid. They did the same thing to me and it saved my life- because no matter how much crap I was willing to spew about it at the time, telling everybody that if they ever ever questioned my choice they were bad feminists or bad women or bad people or prudes, the people who didn't let up are the ones who got me to knock it the fuck off and to address the underlying issues that were driving me to hurt myself, to put myself in the way of bad men who hated me. And those people saved my life.

As a former sex worker, I find articles like this not just sickening, but disgusting in their attempts to whitewash the sex industry and the selling of sex into a perfectly healthy activity that undamaged adults engage in for fun.

Thanks for indoctrinating the next generation of young women who will get beat and raped and coerced and hurt in strip clubs and hotels because they heard that sex work and feminism have nothing to do with each other except to demonstrate that feminists are totally mean and un-accepting.

for Voltairyne

Thanx for pointing out what I couldnt without sounding condecending.

Working in the sex trad isn't sexually immoral, but supporting the sex industry is immoral in that good old fashioned "dont stab your sister in the back" kind of way.

kind of makes me want to slip on my crusader slippers and get to work... wait I did that already.

I think this is a great post, though I have a question that stems in part from my ignorance of the industry:

Though I do not judge individual women sex workers as anti-feminist, I do tend to judge men who frequent strip-clubs and solicit prositutes as anti-feminist, in large part because it seems to me that from their vantage point, they have no way of knowing if they are engaing in a mututally beneficial contract or exploiting someone who has no other options. I also assume that most men who supporting the sex trade are doing so not just due to a desire to see naked women, but also from an active desire to have an unequal encounter where he possesses the woman.

Which leads to my question about developing friendships with customers...does this happen often? Would this guy still be interested in seeing you strip, once you forced him to acknowledge your humanity and own sexual nature? Or would that ruin the effect of going to strip clubs? I love that you called this guy out, I guess I am just curious about what he does after that conversation.

So the broader question I am asking is: can men who support the sex trade industry be feminists, and how does that relate to the feminism of women engaging in this trade?

I think the point for a lot of feminists who are critical of the sex trade is that woman are generally required to be sexual, that's the basis for how mainstream society values us and how we are taught to value ourselves.

So participating and supporting the sex trade does not reduce the likelihood of women being judged based solely on their sexual characteristics.

I don't think you can't be a feminist and a sex worker (similar to how you can be antiracist and white), but I don't see how sex work can be feminist in itself.

As a casual observer, the double standard is something that really has bothered me for a long time.

By simultaneously normalizing a culture of rampant sex consumption yet promulgating imagery and themes of the "dirty whore" and lowly sex worker, men are having their cake and eating it too.

Ultimately men want a large pool of women from which to choose long-term faithful mates. But they also want a steady supply of women who are willing to provide short-term sex. Masculine-based values dictate that there should be very little overlap in these two groups of women.

The key here is that society is far less accepting of women who are both sellers of sex services and who are long-term mates. Contrast this with what we've known for a long time: Husbands, boyfriends and fiances have long been paying for sex on the side, under a turned, blind societal eye.

I think it's frustrating for we women not involved in sex work to see these inequalities carried over and yet somehow people have the expectation that monetary compensation will negate the situation.

okay, i'm bugged by some of the comments in this thread. if an individual had a bad experience with the sex industry (i.e. Voltairyne), i can understand that they'd be against it, and i totally respect that opinion. i'll not question your lived experiences, because hey - you lived them!

what i DO question is the idea that sex-work is inherently anti-feminist. to say that both implies that women have no agency, and that there is no female gaze. what about the women who like to look at women's bodies? would, for example, erotica made by women/for women still be an evil tool of the patriarchy?

at the end of the day, i think the problem isn't the sex industry itself, it's the *patriarchal construction* of the sex industry - which starts with, but is in no way limited to, all the double standards laid out in this post. and if women can subvert and appropriate patriarchal spaces for their own purposes, i see no reason why that can't be true of sex work as well.

but Voltairyne makes another valid point as well - privilege does make a difference. it's one thing to choose the sex industry, it's a whole other thing if it's the lesser of evils, or something imposed on you against your will.

The sex industry "is" a patriarchal construction. The majority of men keeping it alive wouldn't think it was fun if it wasn't. I like to think of it as the last desperate thrashings of a dying culture. And now I don't mean the culture of fun and sexuality, I mean the culture of being an asshole.

It's sole basis of existence is the inequality between the sexes, and it is profiting from spreading the divide.

It's profiting from making the consumers care less about the "product." Do you really think a guy stops to consider whether or not he's wanking off to a trafficee once he get's started. The net has really become the place of "I don't give a shit who that prepubescent girl is, it's not my responsibility."

It's warping our concepts of what is considered feminine and what is considered sexual. Not to mention why we should be sexual and in what circumstances. Freedom of sexual expression kind of loose it's meaning once you've seen the "expression" a gazillion times before. And why bother to be creative when you know what the "client" expects to get and that he'll gladly go "somewhere else" to get it.

I've read a lot about "somewhere else", men are dirty to me now...

Stripping at a local club in and hanging out with the costumers doesn't deny anybody the right of calling themselves a feminist, about as little as prostitution would, none of these things takes away a woman's right to point out bullshit and stand up for her rights and others.

But a woman has to shut her mind a little not to see how it all works out in the end.

It's not nice to realize you're stepping on people, mushing them down into the dirt you help create a demand for, especially not when you're wearing stilettos.

Cedar, you trivialize the enormity of the situation when you refer to me as an individual who had bad experiences. What I am trying to say is that my experiences were normal because the vast fucking majority of people who have ever been in the sex industry freely admit that it was a bad experience. Stop referring to me as if I'm some sort of fluke.

Also, porn and stripping are not about nudity and sex per se, but about fucked-up power dynamics playing out in nudity and sex. Referring to porn and/or stripping as "naked women" ignores that these women starve themselves, mutilate their bodies in order to meet the standards of customers, and then engage is sex acts which are painful and subordinating and either simulate rape or are actually rape.

Finally, I am willing to concede that there are like, five women in the world who might be into looking at porn without the following factors being involved:

1) the encouragement of a patriarchal culture that thinks lesbian voyeurism is hawt provided everybody involved looks like someone straight men want to fuck,

2) the coercion of boyfriends who want to think that their chick is "bisexual" and may engage in some icky threesome fantasy someday.

And I think these women are weird.

I don't think that the woman who wrote this is in any way contributing to the illegal/harmful parts of the sex industry. Her dancing in a night club does not have anything to do with forced prostitution or child pornography. Both of those things are already illegal. If there is not a safe and legal sex industry the sex industry will go completely underground and it will be much more difficult to arrest the truly horrible people who abuse women and force them into it. Feminists should support sex workers, because even if the sex workers have jobs that others may dislike and/or see as opressive, they still deserve to be treated with respect.

Great Post!

@voltairyne

I am an under 18 lesbian and my under 18 ex girlfriend and I used to have a suicidegirls.com account until we broke up. Neither of us look anything like stereotypical "straight" girls either.

What about the other 3?

-the anglerfish

sorry to say this, but suicidegirls is major barf. It tries to sell the idea that it's somehow better and more on "womens terms" but it's still a place where men can pay to wank off at what ever they want, and it's still just women and not men that are "in demand". And don't get me started about the name...

And about the horrible "under ground"?

Ask a Swedish feminist about it today...

You know how they penalised punter in 1999, turns out that what the dumb bulk of the punters could find with a bit of work, so could the police.

We're getting the law in Norway in November,

And then us rad-fems are going to hunt down porn and kill that too. sattelite photos from Norway this winter will show up a whole lot brighter from all the porn pyres.

the anglerfish commented at July 17, 2008 12:43 AM: "I am an under 18 lesbian and my under 18 ex girlfriend and I used to have a suicidegirls.com account until we broke up. Neither of us look anything like stereotypical "straight" girls either.

"What about the other 3?"

They're reading sexually explicit novels about people who don't exist IRL and/or reading sexually explicit comics with drawings of gay men who don't exist IRL, and counting that as porn. Maybe one of them's reasing Ms. magazine and aware that even this counts as porn to some people out there what with all the photos of women's unveiled faces...

voltairyne commented at July 17, 2008 12:26 AM: "Also, porn and stripping are not about nudity and sex per se, but about fucked-up power dynamics playing out in nudity and sex. Referring to porn and/or stripping as 'naked women' ignores that these women starve themselves, mutilate their bodies in order to meet the standards of customers, and then engage is sex acts which are painful and subordinating and either simulate rape or are actually rape."

Thanks for the important reminders.

Meanwhile, I'm still anti-abuse instead of anti-porn and anti-stripping because not all starvation, mutilation, rape, etc. is on camera and not everything that gets labelled "porn" or "stripping" includes starvation, mutilation, rape, etc. (there are people out there who call it porn when two actors just kiss, who call it stripping when women expose our elbows in public, etc.).

@ Anglerfish

1. Yes, I'm sure that you and your subculture and very very edgy and don't look at all like those other girls with slightly different hair and makeup preferences. Waitta be a unique snowflake.

2. Yes this article does hurt women and promote the sex industry because it lies about anti-porn feminist's approach to the sex industry by saying that we have some sort of animosity towards sex workers and talks at length about working in the sex industry without ever bringing up the sex industry's most prominent feature, heinous abuse of damaged women so men with power can keep feeling powerful.

@Mina

Please read Robert Jensen. The claim that we can't condemn porn because nobody knows what it is just comes off as incredibly disingenuous and a little dumb. Where are these people who think that Ms is porn? I've never met them and I suspect that almost none of them exist, despite the frequency with which apologists for on-screen rape trot them out.

A random sample of the population of most countries on earth, not including any particularly noxious godbags, will show very consistent beliefs as to what constitutes porn. Porn is media whose sole intent from inception to creation to presentation is to provide the audience (almost always male) with material to which they can masturbate and climax by presenting people (almost always female) engaged in sexually suggestive poses or sexually explicit activities.

There are almost no people on earth who I can imagine disagreeing strongly with this explanation, and if the small percentage who do feel compelled to air their grievances, they probably don't need you to do it for them, nor do you need to make such efforts to keep the word from being defined in order to keep from offending them.

Finally, I'm sure there are many words which you have no such compunctions about dissecting and defining, despite much greater controversy. Do you know what "love" is? Do you have opinions about it? Do you think you should be allowed to talk about it even though we all disagree on the definition? How about "democracy?" You realize that a lot of people disagree about what constitutes a "democracy," yes? Many of them claim, in fact, that the US is not one. How about "good?" There's so many disagreements about what is and isn't good, should we all just stop talking about "good" and refuse to pass any judgments?

I had a wake up call when in the Spring of 2007 I traveled to Cambodia for three months as a part of my study abroad. The media has done a decent job of talking about prostitution there, especially focusing on child prostitution. There was an organization my group visited while there called "Womyn's Agenda for Change." They are a fabulous organization working to give sex workers a voice and work for their rights, since they are definitely given the short end of things in Cambodian culture. Their website is: www.womynsagenda.org and is worth checking out. But I was really struck in that moment in hearing them speak. One of the banners in their building said "Sex work is work." It's totally true. I can't tell them what's best for their situation, and right now- sex work is working for them. They'll admit that it's not what they want to be doing, or what they want to do for the rest of their lives, but right now it's their job. Right now this is your job, and I do support you- even if it wouldn't be the choice for me. I think that's where we all need to compromise and realize that not all women, or feminists for that matter have to have the same agenda in everything- choice of jobs included. I commend you for making the choice to do work that is so often looked down upon. Take care of yourself.

Posted by voltairyne | July 17, 2008 12:26 AM:
Finally, I am willing to concede that there are like, five women in the world who might be into looking at porn without the following factors being involved:

1) the encouragement of a patriarchal culture that thinks lesbian voyeurism is hawt provided everybody involved looks like someone straight men want to fuck,

2) the coercion of boyfriends who want to think that their chick is "bisexual" and may engage in some icky threesome fantasy someday.

And I think these women are weird.

Hi - you think I'm weird... but I"m okay with that people I'm happy to let you have your kinks and recognize that they will differ from mine.

I do have a question though, if a woman has an 'icky' threesome with 2 girls and don't have a boyfriend... do kinky queers not exist in your world?

Posted by voltairyne | July 17, 2008 8:25 AM:
"Where are these people who think that Ms is porn? I've never met them and I suspect that almost none of them exist, despite the frequency with which apologists for on-screen rape trot them out."

voltairyne - I"m not sure if you really just love hyperbola, or are actually seriously attempting to make this argument (for a second time).

These comments are exactly why many sex workers want NOTHING to do with the feminist movement. Because we are treated with the same condescension we get some some of our customers.

"...where the majority of sex workers can be said to be living in slavery..."

Do tell. Many of the sex workers I know live in relative comfort.

"These are the women that men fuck in order to remind themselves that all women are subordinate; these are the women that men fuck in order to remind themselves that they always always always must have access to pussy and that a woman is a commodity you come inside and that when you can't buy it you should be allowed to rape it. These are real women who suffer, and addressing them from your atronomical levels of privilege, telling them about your free, fun, and sexy choice, is a bit insulting when you are the upscale version of what's being done to them and they are suffering such horrid abuse."

I know that not all women live and work on my level. Some are worse off than me, but that does not mean that all sex workers are being abused. To tell us that we are being abused, we just don't realize it, is like hearing it straight from the mouth of the patriarchy. That we are not self-aware enough to comprehend such things.

"Did the big bad feminists make you feel icky at some point for being a sex worker? That's tough cookies, kid. They did the same thing to me and it saved my life- because no matter how much crap I was willing to spew about it at the time, telling everybody that if they ever ever questioned my choice they were bad feminists or bad women or bad people or prudes, the people who didn't let up are the ones who got me to knock it the fuck off and to address the underlying issues that were driving me to hurt myself, to put myself in the way of bad men who hated me. And those people saved my life."

If you had been a sex worker as you claim, then you will realize that not all sex workers are cookie-cutter blow-up dolls. We are individuals with varying experiences. For one woman the industry may be the thing to ruin her life, while it may actually save the life of another. Not all sex workers have issues. Some are merely here for the ride. Sex work is NOT for everyone.

"As a former sex worker, I find articles like this not just sickening, but disgusting in their attempts to whitewash the sex industry and the selling of sex into a perfectly healthy activity that undamaged adults engage in for fun."

I'm not whitewashing the industry. It's not all flowers and sunshine for eve