Hi!

As a radical feminist from Norway, I might have another viewpoint than most americans. But I'll try not to bore you with my personal opinions on the "sex trade" as a whole.

I believe that the reason for why your customer and a lot of other men have that kind of thoughts can be explained by what they are getting out of the "trade" in the first place.

Watching you dance is never only a sexual experience, there will always be a certain illusion of having power over you, an ego boost, even if only subconciously. You could say that it's all an elaborate power play and they have paid to have the upper hand.

I guess your customer is relating to this, but that he was caught of guard by you snapping back at him.

I can understand how irritating it can be to become aware of expectations you didn't know you had to relate to. The norms of society can be exhausting to fight on the individual level. So just flip the idiot the bird. 'cause the world wont change "one by one". Sad but true. Fight the structures, not the symptoms.

I just want to applaud you. This is a huge double standard and good on you for calling him out on it.

Yeah, no shit. I think it's great you called him out on his crap.

And I agree with you - no sex worker is worth less than any other person because of his/her line of work.

My only concern with sex work is force or pressure, which doesn't seem to be a problem with you, so I don't see how it isn't a feminist choice.

Being a sex worker does not make me less. Less of a woman, less of a feminist, less of a person.

amen. great post. i've had this same conversation before. i hate this attitude that a lot of customers have. i just don't get how they think that strippers are so morally bad but they aren't, even though they are paying for it. i honestly think some go to stripclubs simply to feel superior. it's pathetic.

interesting read. thanks.

Bravo. Bravo for standing up to him and for coming here and posting! I could not agree with your perspective more and have the utmost respect for exotic dancers and sex workers.

I think it is great that you were able to sum it up so well for him: "Why? Are women not allowed to be sexually expressive? Are we not to be sexual?"

Woohoo! Double standard indeed. I recall back in the day (when I was a preteen and home sick meant a day of Maury and Montell) watching TV. I can't remember what daytime show it was, or the topic, but I clearly remember a well-spoken, well-presented young woman paying for her college by dancing. She was also involved in her school's sporting community. One night while she was dancing, the boys from her track team all walked in with their coach, all wearing their school athletic jackets, shirts and hats. When the coach spotted her, she was immediately kicked off the team and he tried to have her expelled for "representing the college in that light". Anyone else see the sick double standard in this story? There was nothing identifying her as a member of the college, no one knew where she was from, yet all the men from the college could show up to watch the naked dancers with their logo emblazoned all across them, and that's not a problem at all. Thank you for telling your story, I think it's the type that a lot more people need to hear. I've never thought less of dancers, thankfully; my cousin is one, she's an amazing person, unfortunately after learning of her life choice I am the only family member that still talks to her. Our family thinks she is now beneath us. I am so glad to have a strong role model like her, and it breaks my heart that I have to be the one to send her pictures of her little sisters because she isn't allowed to see them anymore, lest she corrupt them.

Ah, yes. I cocktailed in strip joints for a few years during and after college, and I remember this attitude of the customers'. My interpretation is that it's a classist/power thing as well as a sexist thing. Who is buying? Men. Who's selling? Women. The power is often in the hands of the buyer in a market economy, unless the good being sold is a necessity (such as oil/gas). So in my mind, it's similar to the attitude an employer might have toward a nanny, a cleaning lady, or someone else who provides manual labor or "unskilled" services for them. They feel that they are in a position of power and higher social class, so they look down on the person providing the service even though they are happy to pay for it.

God men are pigs!

At the end of the day men just think about one thing - having sex and dominating women.

Let’s face it, what have the brutes achieved so far? War, rape, child pornography. All fuelled by there insatiable ego and desire to have intercourse! I almost feel sorry for them.

The thing about sex workers is that they are being objectified by men, and they don't seem to realise that they are fuelling an industry which degrades and devalues women. This is why although one may chose to become a lap dancer because it provides good money they are betraying other feminists who refuse to accept the culture of women as 'sex objects'. By dancing for a man the only value you have to him is your body.

This is why pornography and other mediums in which you chose to 'be sexually expressive' should be prohibited - young girls who only value materiel possessions are prostituting themselves and promoting the objectification of women.

God men are pigs!

At the end of the day men just think about one thing - having sex and dominating women.

Let’s face it, what have the brutes achieved so far? War, rape, child pornography. All fuelled by there insatiable ego and desire to have intercourse! I almost feel sorry for them.

The thing about sex workers is that they are being objectified by men, and they don't seem to realise that they are fuelling an industry which degrades and devalues women. This is why although one may chose to become a lap dancer because it provides good money they are betraying other feminists who refuse to accept the culture of women as 'sex objects'. By dancing for a man the only value you have to him is your body.

This is why pornography and other mediums in which you chose to 'be sexually expressive' should be prohibited - young girls who only value materiel possessions are prostituting themselves and promoting the objectification of women.

Hello,

Thank you for your post. I am a French sex worker currently living in London. I met the same kind of situations with my clients but actualy with everyone.

I really think that as sex workers our feminism can be usefull for all women and minorities because we know men in their intimacy and so are more able to analyse domination mechanisms.

I think female sex workers are the strongest women I met and they taught me much more about feminism (in the practice and not only in theory) than any others.
I think that in sex work, the fact that the sexual contract is clear and that we impose our conditions before sex leads to a more equal relationship.

Sex workers are the only women I know who dare to go out in public places during nights.

I wish that one day we could ally with other feminist and stop seing each other as foes.
Unfortunatly many sex workers see the feminists as moralistic and men-hateful persons and thus lose so much from what feminism brought.
It's pity when the sex workers' movement is born from feminism and that we can give in return.

Thierry

Thank you for this post!

Good post!

I think the men who visit strip clubs view the dancers as beneath them because, in their minds (thanks to patriarchy), finding a woman sexually appealing is degrading to her. Sex and violence are very closely linked in their minds.
They don't "get" that it's a double standard because THEY are not devalued or degraded in sexual encounters - it's always the woman who's dominated and dehumanized.

...Also, because some men have fucked-up attitudes about women and sex (virgin/whore complex), they are unable to simultaneously respect a woman and find her sexy.
Once they begin to respect a woman as an individual, they no longer see her as sexual (and vise versa).

I'm glad you were able to get the customer to think about the double standard he made between you two. Men think they can do whatever but women still have to be kept in boxes of acceptability. Or at least certain women do, right?

Sex work is an issue I grapple with and I'm interested to learn more about your and other women's experiences.

Because the male gaze & approval is so desired, I think I can understand why it might be fun or gratifying or empowering work (in addition to the other reasons you say why you do it like pay and flexible schedule) but at the same time, so many men generally have so little respect for women that I would be worried about what they're actually thinking. Would I just be contributing to the pervasive idea that a woman's main value is her attractiveness/sex appeal? On the one hand sex workers can exploit the idea and benefit from the money men are willing to pay but at the same time do they perpetuate that idea? Or do we just need to get more male strip clubs going to make it more even?

I feel I'd also wonder about the customers and think, why gratify an unknown man in such an intimate way when he could be an abusive, sexist jerk? I don't know. I was raised in a very conservative religion and I know my views of sex are tainted by my upbringing and I'm kind of a puritan. But it is really important to me to never be intimate with anyone I don't feel respects me.

I also have a problem with how it's primarily men paying women for sex or to see them naked etc. If a similar number of women were also going to see men, I would feel sex work to be less exploitive of women and more just a sexual experience. It just still seems like a power thing to me. "I'm powerful and have money so you take off your clothes and be my fantasy, let me evaluate you, etc." Plus, stories about the high risk of abuse of sex workers by customers and a statistic I remember hearing that something like 70% of either prostitutes or sex workers were sexually abused when they were younger make me wary of the sex industry in general.

But if you and other people who posted on here don't feel that way and feel empowered, feel safe, etc, then I am really glad and people like me need to get educated about how things really are.

Great article.

I am however, disappointed by some of the comments I'm reading. Most specifically those who are suggesting you, as a sex worker, will always be stuck under the male gaze, commodification, objectification and blah blah blah.

First - we as women are almost alway living with the male gaze, and objectification. Does this mean we should hide away because walking down the street can lead to this? Hell no. Does this mean someone should not work as a sex worker because of it? I say HELL NO. You wrestle with your own thoughts on this one.

Second - I caution anyone who thinks they have the rights to put their perception of my experience in place of my actual experience.

I'll write more on my own blog when I'm not on the company's dime.

I think this double-standard is related to another that I've written on my blog...and that is that the men who will gladly go to strip clubs or look at women posing for porn but would not "let" their girlfriends do the same. As in, they have no problem looking at other women naked but don't want anyone looking at "their" girlfriend naked.

And I think part of the reason why points to that same issue of power and control that is the undercurrent of why it's ok for them, but is something they don't recognize in their own motivations.

The other part of this I think has to do with wanting sole "property" and "ownership" while wanting group ownership and entitlement (as men) to the community of sex workers. I think most men want the privilege of access to women who fulfill their sexual needs but don't want them be anyone they know--friends, family, etc.--they should be anonymous women who's sole purpose is to fulfill their sexual desire. I think a lot of men know they're objectifying and feel power even when they say they're not...otherwise, why would sex work be "below" anyone? And why couldn't your girlfriend do it--if it's no big deal to watch a dance why can't she dance.

Double standards all around...

So, it's funny how when you ask about sex work online, on websites mostly frequented by liberal feminists with a certain amount of cash and a certain lack of color, you get a lot of "OMG IT'S MY BODY AND ANYBODY WHO POINTS OUT THAT THIS CHOICE IS SOMETHING WHICH REINFORCES PATRIARCHY IS A BAD WOMAN WHO HATES ALL WHORES."

If we were in the real world, where over 90% of sex workers on the planet want to GTFO, where the majority of sex workers can be said to be living in slavery, we'd probably get a much more honest appraisal of what sex work is and how it functions in a patriarchy.

These are the women that men fuck in order to remind themselves that all women are subordinate; these are the women that men fuck in order to remind themselves that they always always always must have access to pussy and that a woman is a commodity you come inside and that when you can't buy it you should be allowed to rape it. These are real women who suffer, and addressing them from your atronomical levels of privilege, telling them about your free, fun, and sexy choice, is a bit insulting when you are the upscale version of what's being done to them and they are suffering such horrid abuse.

Did the big bad feminists make you feel icky at some point for being a sex worker? That's tough cookies, kid. They did the same thing to me and it saved my life- because no matter how much crap I was willing to spew about it at the time, telling everybody that if they ever ever questioned my choice they were bad feminists or bad women or bad people or prudes, the people who didn't let up are the ones who got me to knock it the fuck off and to address the underlying issues that were driving me to hurt myself, to put myself in the way of bad men who hated me. And those people saved my life.

As a former sex worker, I find articles like this not just sickening, but disgusting in their attempts to whitewash the sex industry and the selling of sex into a perfectly healthy activity that undamaged adults engage in for fun.

Thanks for indoctrinating the next generation of young women who will get beat and raped and coerced and hurt in strip clubs and hotels because they heard that sex work and feminism have nothing to do with each other except to demonstrate that feminists are totally mean and un-accepting.

for Voltairyne

Thanx for pointing out what I couldnt without sounding condecending.

Working in the sex trad isn't sexually immoral, but supporting the sex industry is immoral in that good old fashioned "dont stab your sister in the back" kind of way.

kind of makes me want to slip on my crusader slippers and get to work... wait I did that already.

I think this is a great post, though I have a question that stems in part from my ignorance of the industry:

Though I do not judge individual women sex workers as anti-feminist, I do tend to judge men who frequent strip-clubs and solicit prositutes as anti-feminist, in large part because it seems to me that from their vantage point, they have no way of knowing if they are engaing in a mututally beneficial contract or exploiting someone who has no other options. I also assume that most men who supporting the sex trade are doing so not just due to a desire to see naked women, but also from an active desire to have an unequal encounter where he possesses the woman.

Which leads to my question about developing friendships with customers...does this happen often? Would this guy still be interested in seeing you strip, once you forced him to acknowledge your humanity and own sexual nature? Or would that ruin the effect of going to strip clubs? I love that you called this guy out, I guess I am just curious about what he does after that conversation.

So the broader question I am asking is: can men who support the sex trade industry be feminists, and how does that relate to the feminism of women engaging in this trade?

I think the point for a lot of feminists who are critical of the sex trade is that woman are generally required to be sexual, that's the basis for how mainstream society values us and how we are taught to value ourselves.

So participating and supporting the sex trade does not reduce the likelihood of women being judged based solely on their sexual characteristics.

I don't think you can't be a feminist and a sex worker (similar to how you can be antiracist and white), but I don't see how sex work can be feminist in itself.

As a casual observer, the double standard is something that really has bothered me for a long time.

By simultaneously normalizing a culture of rampant sex consumption yet promulgating imagery and themes of the "dirty whore" and lowly sex worker, men are having their cake and eating it too.

Ultimately men want a large pool of women from which to choose long-term faithful mates. But they also want a steady supply of women who are willing to provide short-term sex. Masculine-based values dictate that there should be very little overlap in these two groups of women.

The key here is that society is far less accepting of women who are both sellers of sex services and who are long-term mates. Contrast this with what we've known for a long time: Husbands, boyfriends and fiances have long been paying for sex on the side, under a turned, blind societal eye.

I think it's frustrating for we women not involved in sex work to see these inequalities carried over and yet somehow people have the expectation that monetary compensation will negate the situation.

okay, i'm bugged by some of the comments in this thread. if an individual had a bad experience with the sex industry (i.e. Voltairyne), i can understand that they'd be against it, and i totally respect that opinion. i'll not question your lived experiences, because hey - you lived them!

what i DO question is the idea that sex-work is inherently anti-feminist. to say that both implies that women have no agency, and that there is no female gaze. what about the women who like to look at women's bodies? would, for example, erotica made by women/for women still be an evil tool of the patriarchy?

at the end of the day, i think the problem isn't the sex industry itself, it's the *patriarchal construction* of the sex industry - which starts with, but is in no way limited to, all the double standards laid out in this post. and if women can subvert and appropriate patriarchal spaces for their own purposes, i see no reason why that can't be true of sex work as well.

but Voltairyne makes another valid point as well - privilege does make a difference. it's one thing to choose the sex industry, it's a whole other thing if it's the lesser of evils, or something imposed on you against your will.

The sex industry "is" a patriarchal construction. The majority of men keeping it alive wouldn't think it was fun if it wasn't. I like to think of it as the last desperate thrashings of a dying culture. And now I don't mean the culture of fun and sexuality, I mean the culture of being an asshole.

It's sole basis of existence is the inequality between the sexes, and it is profiting from spreading the divide.

It's profiting from making the consumers care less about the "product." Do you really think a guy stops to consider whether or not he's wanking off to a trafficee once he get's started. The net has really become the place of "I don't give a shit who that prepubescent girl is, it's not my responsibility."

It's warping our concepts of what is considered feminine and what is considered sexual. Not to mention why we should be sexual and in what circumstances. Freedom of sexual expression kind of loose it's meaning once you've seen the "expression" a gazillion times before. And why bother to be creative when you know what the "client" expects to get and that he'll gladly go "somewhere else" to get it.

I've read a lot about "somewhere else", men are dirty to me now...

Stripping at a local club in and hanging out with the costumers doesn't deny anybody the right of calling themselves a feminist, about as little as prostitution would, none of these things takes away a woman's right to point out bullshit and stand up for her rights and others.

But a woman has to shut her mind a little not to see how it all works out in the end.

It's not nice to realize you're stepping on people, mushing them down into the dirt you help create a demand for, especially not when you're wearing stilettos.

Cedar, you trivialize the enormity of the situation when you refer to me as an individual who had bad experiences. What I am trying to say is that my experiences were normal because the vast fucking majority of people who have ever been in the sex industry freely admit that it was a bad experience. Stop referring to me as if I'm some sort of fluke.

Also, porn and stripping are not about nudity and sex per se, but about fucked-up power dynamics playing out in nudity and sex. Referring to porn and/or stripping as "naked women" ignores that these women starve themselves, mutilate their bodies in order to meet the standards of customers, and then engage is sex acts which are painful and subordinating and either simulate rape or are actually rape.

Finally, I am willing to concede that there are like, five women in the world who might be into looking at porn without the following factors being involved:

1) the encouragement of a patriarchal culture that thinks lesbian voyeurism is hawt provided everybody involved looks like someone straight men want to fuck,

2) the coercion of boyfriends who want to think that their chick is "bisexual" and may engage in some icky threesome fantasy someday.

And I think these women are weird.

I don't think that the woman who wrote this is in any way contributing to the illegal/harmful parts of the sex industry. Her dancing in a night club does not have anything to do with forced prostitution or child pornography. Both of those things are already illegal. If there is not a safe and legal sex industry the sex industry will go completely underground and it will be much more difficult to arrest the truly horrible people who abuse women and force them into it. Feminists should support sex workers, because even if the sex workers have jobs that others may dislike and/or see as opressive, they still deserve to be treated with respect.

Great Post!

@voltairyne

I am an under 18 lesbian and my under 18 ex girlfriend and I used to have a suicidegirls.com account until we broke up. Neither of us look anything like stereotypical "straight" girls either.

What about the other 3?

-the anglerfish

sorry to say this, but suicidegirls is major barf. It tries to sell the idea that it's somehow better and more on "womens terms" but it's still a place where men can pay to wank off at what ever they want, and it's still just women and not men that are "in demand". And don't get me started about the name...

And about the horrible "under ground"?

Ask a Swedish feminist about it today...

You know how they penalised punter in 1999, turns out that what the dumb bulk of the punters could find with a bit of work, so could the police.

We're getting the law in Norway in November,

And then us rad-fems are going to hunt down porn and kill that too. sattelite photos from Norway this winter will show up a whole lot brighter from all the porn pyres.

the anglerfish commented at July 17, 2008 12:43 AM: "I am an under 18 lesbian and my under 18 ex girlfriend and I used to have a suicidegirls.com account until we broke up. Neither of us look anything like stereotypical "straight" girls either.

"What about the other 3?"

They're reading sexually explicit novels about people who don't exist IRL and/or reading sexually explicit comics with drawings of gay men who don't exist IRL, and counting that as porn. Maybe one of them's reasing Ms. magazine and aware that even this counts as porn to some people out there what with all the photos of women's unveiled faces...

voltairyne commented at July 17, 2008 12:26 AM: "Also, porn and stripping are not about nudity and sex per se, but about fucked-up power dynamics playing out in nudity and sex. Referring to porn and/or stripping as 'naked women' ignores that these women starve themselves, mutilate their bodies in order to meet the standards of customers, and then engage is sex acts which are painful and subordinating and either simulate rape or are actually rape."

Thanks for the important reminders.

Meanwhile, I'm still anti-abuse instead of anti-porn and anti-stripping because not all starvation, mutilation, rape, etc. is on camera and not everything that gets labelled "porn" or "stripping" includes starvation, mutilation, rape, etc. (there are people out there who call it porn when two actors just kiss, who call it stripping when women expose our elbows in public, etc.).

@ Anglerfish

1. Yes, I'm sure that you and your subculture and very very edgy and don't look at all like those other girls with slightly different hair and makeup preferences. Waitta be a unique snowflake.

2. Yes this article does hurt women and promote the sex industry because it lies about anti-porn feminist's approach to the sex industry by saying that we have some sort of animosity towards sex workers and talks at length about working in the sex industry without ever bringing up the sex industry's most prominent feature, heinous abuse of damaged women so men with power can keep feeling powerful.

@Mina

Please read Robert Jensen. The claim that we can't condemn porn because nobody knows what it is just comes off as incredibly disingenuous and a little dumb. Where are these people who think that Ms is porn? I've never met them and I suspect that almost none of them exist, despite the frequency with which apologists for on-screen rape trot them out.

A random sample of the population of most countries on earth, not including any particularly noxious godbags, will show very consistent beliefs as to what constitutes porn. Porn is media whose sole intent from inception to creation to presentation is to provide the audience (almost always male) with material to which they can masturbate and climax by presenting people (almost always female) engaged in sexually suggestive poses or sexually explicit activities.

There are almost no people on earth who I can imagine disagreeing strongly with this explanation, and if the small percentage who do feel compelled to air their grievances, they probably don't need you to do it for them, nor do you need to make such efforts to keep the word from being defined in order to keep from offending them.

Finally, I'm sure there are many words which you have no such compunctions about dissecting and defining, despite much greater controversy. Do you know what "love" is? Do you have opinions about it? Do you think you should be allowed to talk about it even though we all disagree on the definition? How about "democracy?" You realize that a lot of people disagree about what constitutes a "democracy," yes? Many of them claim, in fact, that the US is not one. How about "good?" There's so many disagreements about what is and isn't good, should we all just stop talking about "good" and refuse to pass any judgments?

I had a wake up call when in the Spring of 2007 I traveled to Cambodia for three months as a part of my study abroad. The media has done a decent job of talking about prostitution there, especially focusing on child prostitution. There was an organization my group visited while there called "Womyn's Agenda for Change." They are a fabulous organization working to give sex workers a voice and work for their rights, since they are definitely given the short end of things in Cambodian culture. Their website is: www.womynsagenda.org and is worth checking out. But I was really struck in that moment in hearing them speak. One of the banners in their building said "Sex work is work." It's totally true. I can't tell them what's best for their situation, and right now- sex work is working for them. They'll admit that it's not what they want to be doing, or what they want to do for the rest of their lives, but right now it's their job. Right now this is your job, and I do support you- even if it wouldn't be the choice for me. I think that's where we all need to compromise and realize that not all women, or feminists for that matter have to have the same agenda in everything- choice of jobs included. I commend you for making the choice to do work that is so often looked down upon. Take care of yourself.

Posted by voltairyne | July 17, 2008 12:26 AM:
Finally, I am willing to concede that there are like, five women in the world who might be into looking at porn without the following factors being involved:

1) the encouragement of a patriarchal culture that thinks lesbian voyeurism is hawt provided everybody involved looks like someone straight men want to fuck,

2) the coercion of boyfriends who want to think that their chick is "bisexual" and may engage in some icky threesome fantasy someday.

And I think these women are weird.

Hi - you think I'm weird... but I"m okay with that people I'm happy to let you have your kinks and recognize that they will differ from mine.

I do have a question though, if a woman has an 'icky' threesome with 2 girls and don't have a boyfriend... do kinky queers not exist in your world?

Posted by voltairyne | July 17, 2008 8:25 AM:
"Where are these people who think that Ms is porn? I've never met them and I suspect that almost none of them exist, despite the frequency with which apologists for on-screen rape trot them out."

voltairyne - I"m not sure if you really just love hyperbola, or are actually seriously attempting to make this argument (for a second time).

These comments are exactly why many sex workers want NOTHING to do with the feminist movement. Because we are treated with the same condescension we get some some of our customers.

"...where the majority of sex workers can be said to be living in slavery..."

Do tell. Many of the sex workers I know live in relative comfort.

"These are the women that men fuck in order to remind themselves that all women are subordinate; these are the women that men fuck in order to remind themselves that they always always always must have access to pussy and that a woman is a commodity you come inside and that when you can't buy it you should be allowed to rape it. These are real women who suffer, and addressing them from your atronomical levels of privilege, telling them about your free, fun, and sexy choice, is a bit insulting when you are the upscale version of what's being done to them and they are suffering such horrid abuse."

I know that not all women live and work on my level. Some are worse off than me, but that does not mean that all sex workers are being abused. To tell us that we are being abused, we just don't realize it, is like hearing it straight from the mouth of the patriarchy. That we are not self-aware enough to comprehend such things.

"Did the big bad feminists make you feel icky at some point for being a sex worker? That's tough cookies, kid. They did the same thing to me and it saved my life- because no matter how much crap I was willing to spew about it at the time, telling everybody that if they ever ever questioned my choice they were bad feminists or bad women or bad people or prudes, the people who didn't let up are the ones who got me to knock it the fuck off and to address the underlying issues that were driving me to hurt myself, to put myself in the way of bad men who hated me. And those people saved my life."

If you had been a sex worker as you claim, then you will realize that not all sex workers are cookie-cutter blow-up dolls. We are individuals with varying experiences. For one woman the industry may be the thing to ruin her life, while it may actually save the life of another. Not all sex workers have issues. Some are merely here for the ride. Sex work is NOT for everyone.

"As a former sex worker, I find articles like this not just sickening, but disgusting in their attempts to whitewash the sex industry and the selling of sex into a perfectly healthy activity that undamaged adults engage in for fun."

I'm not whitewashing the industry. It's not all flowers and sunshine for everyone, but for some it can be an enjoyable experience.

"Thanks for indoctrinating the next generation of young women who will get beat and raped and coerced and hurt in strip clubs and hotels..."

Thank you for infantalizing the women who choose to be in this profession willingly. We don't know what best for us, so we should leave our choices in the hands of others? I've heard that logic somewhere before...

"...because they heard that sex work and feminism have nothing to do with each other except to demonstrate that feminists are totally mean and un-accepting."

Indeed.

Heather,

No, look at the whole sentence and stop quoting me out of context, as I mentioned coercion from boyfriends to engage in threesomes which I find icky not because of the threesome itself but because of the coercion and patriarchy. Quoting half a paragraph in order to paint me as a homophobic prude is the exact opposite of awesome.

Naked Feminist,

Just because you know personally many sex workers who live in relative comfort, you think this means that the majority of sex workers are fine? Geeze, I'm glad we can throw aside the real world and the reliable statistics people gather in it in order to project every assertion about everything from the people you happen to be friends with.

Telling the women who try to open your eyes to the fact that you are being used that they are condescending and disempowering you is also the exact opposite of awesome. You realize that the exact same claim has been made about rape, right? A couple decades ago, a lot of women were very mad at feminists for trying to imply that rape hurt anybody's feelings because they felt that in fact the feminists were causing rape trauma by telling people it existed and disempowering women who were in denial by telling them that their rapes were actually bad.

Pointing out the truth in an effort to help you is not the same as hurting you. Also duh.

Sweetie, if you wanna see my TER and BigDoggie pages, you can email me at voltairyne@hushmail.com. I was a sex worker. Waitta try to delegitimize anybody who disagrees with you though. Wait, how do we even know that YOU ever were a sex worker?

Expressing a dissenting opinion about sex work does not make me a liar or an infantalizer. Thanks for fighting dirty, resorting to antifeminist rhetoric pulled straight out of a rape-apologist manual.

"...Also, because some men have fucked-up attitudes about women and sex (virgin/whore complex), they are unable to simultaneously respect a woman and find her sexy.
Once they begin to respect a woman as an individual, they no longer see her as sexual (and vise versa)."

That assumption is flawed because it assumed all men want brainless, thoughtless women.

For the record, I dated that man I met in the club, who treated me like a perfect gentleman, preferred to just chat in the Champagne Room over a bottle of Kristal, and when he stopped coming in (for reasons outlined in the article). We were intimately involved, and he often said knowing me for who I was made me so much sexier than what I tried to portray at work

I've gotten similar sentiment from many people I got to know in the club. I didn't date or become intimate with any of them, but they pretty much all find a highly intelligent woman insanely sexy.

"Which leads to my question about developing friendships with customers...does this happen often? Would this guy still be interested in seeing you strip, once you forced him to acknowledge your humanity and own sexual nature? Or would that ruin the effect of going to strip clubs? I love that you called this guy out, I guess I am just curious about what he does after that conversation."

It happens with surprising frequency. Like anywhere, you don't become chummy with assholes, and for the most part assholes don't come into the clubs much. When they do, and are identified, the dancers quickly ignore them, for we are not forced to deal with bullshit like that (there is money to be made and nicer customers elsewhere). My customers, whom I made friends with, continued to come back and see me, and a number admitted they found me more attractive after getting to know me a bit. The man in the article still swings in occasionally, even though we go for drinks about once a week,when he's not overly busy from his job.

As for the comments regarding customers not seeing me as a human being, this is true. They probably don't see the humanity in the waitress at the steakhouse, or the kid bagging his groceries, or the person an the end of the line at tech support. No, a small number don't treat me like a human being, but I doubt they treat any woman like a human being. That does not mean the entire section of men as a whole also behave like this. Most are more than grateful, behaved, courteous, and many times humble. They are aware of the power balance in the club. Sure, they may have money, but the dancers can equally refuse to provide services (dances, etc) based on the attitude of the customer.

"Telling the women who try to open your eyes to the fact that you are being used that they are condescending and disempowering you is also the exact opposite of awesome."

The same could be said for ANY job other than CEO's. We are all being used for something.

I refuse to allow you to tell me I have no idea what I am doing to myself. I choose to be in this profession, well aware of my risks and what my job entails. I do things on my own terms. I do not allow people to tell me what is expected of me. I do not allow anyone to set my standards for me, not even other women. This is feminism to me. It may not be your feminism, but it is mine.

voltairyne,

Feel free to correct me, (seriously do) but I've now reread your entire first post twice and don't think I'm taking the paragraph I quoted of you of context. If you really meant to say that you are willing to conceed there are like 5, straight or bisexual women, with boyfriends who (paraphrasing here) enjoy porn for porn's sake and have no problem engaging in a M-F-F threesome for something other then to glorify their boyfriend's fantasy. Then you should have been more specific.

I still argue these women could simply be fulfilling their own fantasy and the boy is just lucky to be along for the ride (or not...depending on his perspective of the issue)

As for my second quote: you made a crappy argument - actually you repeatedly make a crappy argument - by writing off certain segments of the population that don't fit into your argument. Nothing out of context about it. Don't get your guard all up because someone called you on it.

voltairyne commented at July 17, 2008 8:25 AM: "Where are these people who think that Ms is porn? I've never met them and I suspect that almost none of them exist, despite the frequency with which apologists for on-screen rape trot them out."

If they don't exist then who's ordering women to keep our hair and arms concealed, banning on-screen kissing, etc. in some nations and neighborhoods out there? That stuff does happen IRL.

I'm no apologist for rape (no matter if it's on-screen or off-screen) and I am aware that the people we've met aren't the only ones in the world.

For example, back when Azizah magazine came out in the U.S. even that got condemned by some other Muslims for being pornographic. No doubt those complainers would say the same about Ms..

voltairyne commented at July 17, 2008 8:25 AM: "A random sample of the population of most countries on earth, not including any particularly noxious godbags, will show very consistent beliefs as to what constitutes porn. Porn is media whose sole intent from inception to creation to presentation is to provide the audience (almost always male) with material to which they can masturbate and climax by presenting people (almost always female) engaged in sexually suggestive poses or sexually explicit activities.

"There are almost no people on earth who I can imagine disagreeing strongly with this explanation, "

Same here. At the same time I can imagine some people in power disagreeing with you over what that explanation includes.

Presenting people having sex can include drawing writing about and/or drawing pictures of people who don't exist IRL having consensual sex. For all I know, the sole intent of

the Wachowski brothers and Dara Joy in having consensual adult sex scenes in The Matrix : Reloaded and Ritual of Proof was helping audiences at home masturbate. I don't have to want that movie and that novel banned or bowdlerised in order to want the assholes who abused you stuck in jail and want strong crackdowns on rapists. Speaking of crackdowns, when rape and/or other brutality is on camera, that media should be preserved and held as evidence. Burning the evidence is too convenient (less prfitable, but still more convenient in terms of trials) for the attackers, after all.

voltairyne commented at July 17, 2008 8:25 AM: "nor do you need to make such efforts to keep the word from being defined in order to keep from offending them."

I'm not trying to keep those jerks from being offended at all. I'm in favor of our rights to keep offending them.

voltairyne commented at July 17, 2008 8:25 AM: "Finally, I'm sure there are many words which you have no such compunctions about dissecting and defining, despite much greater controversy."

What makes you assume I'm not interested in those definitions? Sure I'm not discussing them right here, but that's just because I don't need to discuss everything whenever I discuss something. You know, the same way I don't assume you don't condemn marital rape even though you're not condemning it right here.

voltairyne commented at July 17, 2008 8:25 AM: "Do you know what 'love' is? Do you have opinions about it? Do you think you should be allowed to talk about it even though we all disagree on the definition? How about 'democracy?' You realize that a lot of people disagree about what constitutes a 'democracy,' yes? Many of them claim, in fact, that the US is not one. How about 'good?' There's so many disagreements about what is and isn't good, should we all just stop talking about 'good' and refuse to pass any judgments?"

Very good points! (and it also goes for "dating" and "marriage") That's why it's important and accurate to remember those distinctions, keep talking and dissecting, and pass more judgements instead of assuming those terms describe simple monoliths and deserve only one judgement each (not all dates include date rape, not all marriages are forced, etc.).

Meanwhile, why does it sometimes seem so hard to condemn rape for being rape? It's not just in discussions of porn either.

Years ago I read an interview with Orson Scott Card in which he said the way to stop date rape was requiring chaperones for dates (as if no chaperone's on the rapist's side and as if the unchaperoned date part, not the rape part, was the problem).

When someone in the U.S. marries and rapes two or more girls, so much of the news media condemns it as just "polygamy" (as if it's OK to marry and rape one girl and as if the having two partners at once part, not the rape part, is the problem).

When a gang of Lebanese-Australian teenagers gang-raped a white girl, lots of people condemned immigration (as if it's OK to rape in one's native land and the gang's parents immigrating part, not the rape part, is the problem).

Naked Feminist commented at July 17, 2008 1:42 PM: "If you had been a sex worker as you claim, then you will realize that not all sex workers are cookie-cutter blow-up dolls."

Either that or she only noticed some sex workers and didn't get a chance to notice (or did get a chance to notice but still ignored) other sex workers. Likewise, how many people enslaved on cacao plantations get a chance to observe other people earning a living growing organic cacao on land they own themselves for Fair Trade programs?

Naked Feminist commented at July 17, 2008 1:58 PM: "As for the comments regarding customers not seeing me as a human being, this is true. They probably don't see the humanity in the waitress at the steakhouse, or the kid bagging his groceries, or the person an the end of the line at tech support."

...and all of those cases of ignoring someone else's humanity suck. Sometimes the person bagging my groceries or whatever seems grateful for my politeness, as if customers being polite isn't common enough to take for granted. It should be common enough to take for granted!

okay, i'm backing out of this discussion now, because too many people are tossing around personal insults, and that's not a productive way to have a conversation.

but i do want to apologize to voltairyne. re-reading my comment in light of your response, i realise that my choice of words sort of does come across as trivialising you and your experiences. i'm sorry, that was crap of me, and i'll pay more attention to my wording in the future.

Watching you dance is never only a sexual experience, there will always be a certain illusion of having power over you, an ego boost, even if only subconciously. You could say that it's all an elaborate power play and they have paid to have the upper hand.

Someone who holds that view has clearly never worked as a sex worker. A common line of thought is just as you describe, but the truth of the matter is that the sex worker is the one who holds the power over the client/observer. Anyone who has actually worked as a sex worker will tell you that (though, invariably, those who've never worked a day as one will claim otherwise).

True, there are some instances where the men take advantage of the sex worker (dancers, prostitutes alike), but in the overwhelming majority of the cases, the power balance sets to the advantage of the sex worker (excluding streetwalkers - that's really an entirely different story).

If we were in the real world, where over 90% of sex workers on the planet want to GTFO,

You're channeling Farley now, aren't you? 90% of the streetwalkers want to get out, that is true (I'd argue it is closer to 99%, actually). But that figure is nowhere near accurate for those who are dancers (dancers are very rarely coerced into working), escorts, and the like.

Do tell. Many of the sex workers I know live in relative comfort.

And that mirrors my experiences as well. The vast majority of women I know who work in the sex industry (and I know a great many who work as escorts and in porn), live happy existences in comfortable situations.

I used to say it amuses me to see these "feminists" making all of these assertions about sex workers when the overwhelming majority of them have been as close to sex work as reading someone else's writing about porn. You have no idea what our experiences are like, what our lives are like, so you have no basis for making many of these ridiculous claims.

In the end, though, I've made enough in the month of July alone to pay for my entire two years of graduate school. If it makes you feel better to demean me because of the line of work I've chosen, then feel free to continue. I'm sure I'll ignore it when I plop the cash down in August. ;-)

I do so hate that I came late to this conversation. lol

God men are pigs!

At the end of the day men just think about one thing - having sex and dominating women.

Let’s face it, what have the brutes achieved so far? War, rape, child pornography. All fuelled by there insatiable ego and desire to have intercourse! I almost feel sorry for them.

How can you call yourself a feminist and say something like that? I'm aware no where in your post did you state that you were a feminist, by the way.

Your reactions pisses me off in so many ways.

As a woman, I do not want someone, man or woman, stereotyping me by saying that I am "emotional" or "needy." By claiming that men are "brutes" and "pigs" you are stereotyping them in just the same way that we hate being stereotypes as.

Not all men are brutes. Not all men are pigs. It's unfair for you to claim that. You wouldn't want to be called a bitch or whiny just because you're female, so don't do the same to men. Your comment was completely out of line. I understand that you're angry, I get angry myself some times. However, instead of blaming your anger on ALL MEN, try to figure out WHY you're angry, and WHAT that man may have done to make you so angry in the first place.

Just because one man raped someone, does not make all men rapists. I ask you, is your father a rapist? Because I know a rapist here in Indiana, and well, since he's a man, I was just wondering.

Also, just throwing this out there, as a woman, I too have a "insatiable ego and desire to have intercourse."

Mina: it's a OT; but I made my original point way up, so I'm going to stray a little.

re: politeness - I feel the same way; and I sometimes find that because I do take it for granted I'm shocked when I come across people who are just rude for no reason.

Funny story: The other day my cosmetics people called to check in and the person on the phone was actually taken aback when I asked (in return) how his day way going.

My clients dont think to have a power on me when we have sex. Actualy I feel the contrary. I feel that I have a power on them. Maybe some of them think they dominate me, and after all ok I am not in their head. But you are not either. How can we say all clients or all men dominate by using our services ? There are many different situations. All men are not pigs and all sex workers are not their victims.

I think saying that is essentialist and so is not feminist.

Lori

Thanks for your post.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I can see both sides of this argument:

1. On the one hand, being a sex worker, a woman is an entrepreneur taking charge of her sexuality and exploiting men's seemingly unlimited need to consume porn.

2. On the other hand, willingly objectifying herself into a sexual fantasy reinforces everything wrong with how men relate to women.

I would never judge a woman in the sex industry, nor do I judge the men who frequent clubs, prostitutes, web porn, etc. - but I have a sneaking suspicion that porn is not good for men and women, and certainly does not promote healthy sexual attitudes, with the possible exception of

(a) sex is not bad, or morally wrong

and

(b) the naked human body is not something to be ashamed of.

Without too much effort I can think of better ways to change those attitudes than by defending porn.

I agree that sex workers and feminists shouldn't be against each other when all involved basically want the same things. I respect every woman's right to choose what she wants to do with her life, whether or not I agree with it or would choose it for myself. Different strokes, right? I hope you are happy at your job. I know there are some women working in the sex industry that are miserable so I'm glad to know that there are others that feel comfortable and safe. I think a goal of feminism should be that all working women feel that way, regardless of their particular work.

And yes, it's ridiculous that men can feel pride going into a strip club, but the women working there should be ashamed. Does he presume himself to be better than you? Did he look down on you when he first came in and only later realized you were a real person? Maybe every patron of sex workers needs to be reminded that all the women involved are someone's daughter, and someone's friend (and possibly sister and/or mother). Maybe if they could find a way to enjoy the experience while treating the dancers like people everyone involved can also enjoy a little more dignity. You'd think that shouldn't be so difficult, right?

Lets get real about the sex industry shall we. We can do this easily without using the word "patriachy" once.

There is no arguing that there is a wide variety of experiences out there, and that "sex-workers" are individuals who deal with their experiences in different ways.

But the ones who will most often speak up on their own accord will usually be those privileged few who are still in some sort of control over their lives. The ones who could easily leave it all behind if they had a change of heart.

At least that is what they will readily claim if you ever entertain the thought that being in "sex-work" is somehow damaging in it self and that it might be difficult to leave it even if no one is holding you back. Just as when you're living in an abusing relationship, where you still feel sort of in control.

For those privileged few who live so freely and enjoy their alternative, enpowered lifestyles so much. The least you could do is stop talking as if your experience is somehow relevant to the industry as a whole.

It's like listening to a rich and well educated black man saying that rasism doesn't exist anymore.

And btw Naked Feminist, did it ever occur to you that what the man was saying when he said

"I don't know why you dance. You're so much better than that."

might not be a double standard about you and him, bit instead a naive assumption that you are somehow more human that those other girls he watched at that other place who clearly had no other choice?

How is it clear they had 'no other choice?' That there is a naive assumption in and of itself.

Do people WANT to hear that sex workers are practically enslaved by the profession they CHOSE to get into? With the exclusion of street-walkers, very few of them are. In stripping, damn near all of them are there by their choice. In my time dancing, I've met two girls not dancing of their own free will. They were streetwalkers.

Naked Feminist commented at July 19, 2008 10:37 AM: "Do people WANT to hear that sex workers are practically enslaved by the profession they CHOSE to get into? With the exclusion of street-walkers, very few of them are."

Some are enslaved in brothels instead of ordered to walk the streets by pimps or whatever.

I have been a whore for 6 years and I ve never met the slaves who are supposed to be the majority of my colleagues even when I was working on streets. You can say I m like a black educated man who deny racism. In that case, let me say that you are like christian people who want to cure homosexuality and present their ex-gays survivors as THE reality all the time to try to convince that homosexuality in itself is a disease.

Schaffauser-
Comparing sex-industry survivors to "ex-gays"?
Way to go.

But I guess that's the way you would have to see it...

Thierry Schaffauser commented at July 19, 2008 1:01 PM: "I have been a whore for 6 years and I ve never met the slaves who are supposed to be the majority of my colleagues even when I was working on streets."

There's a really big world out there, including billions more people than you or I have ever met in our lives. Your personal experiences are important to the issue and at the same time they're not the whole entire issue.

Is it really so hard to acknowledge that sex work includes both willing workers and unwilling workers? I mean, we do that for other stuff like agriculture...

I think this is a very complicated issue. I don't think that a woman who is college educated and works at a "clean club" thinks she is a victim, of course not. Does that mean that dancing in a club that I am assuming is geared towards heterosexual male fantasy is a feminist action? No. Do I believe it is a form of sexual expression? No. Are you doing it to get off or to earn money? To earn money. It is a job.

I do not believe most sex workers are feminists exercising their personal choice, nor do I believe that most pimps, johns, or customers of strip joints or purchasers of Girls Gone Wild are celebrating the freedom of choice of women. I think the perpetuation of the rationalization is not helpful to the many women who don't choose to dance out of self expression, and don't choose to be whores out of sexual pleasure, and there are many.

I am not a prude, I consider myself sex positive. If most strip clubs, nudie magazines, and other porn outlets gave as much credence to ANY other point of view than the typical heterosexual male desire, I would have a different opinion, but I don't see that happening.

Women are already up sh*t creek when it comes to our sexual autonomy. I can attest to that. Choice is constantly under attack, sex ed is lacking, problems with sexual assaults, etc. etc.

Introducing profit incentive into the picture and having it work out well probably already requires a certain level of privilege to begin with, especially if you are a woman of a certain social status and "in demand" ethnicity wise and age wise. Y'all know who you are.

Ultimately, if we want to make life better for sex workers we need to make life better for all women. I just have a feeling that we can't do both at the same time. Furthermore, I have a suspicion that a lot of (not all) sex work is serving to only slow down the overall process for us, by reinforcing the same shit that we are trying to dig ourselves out of.

And please, Naked Feminist, no one was coming to the strip club and dropping coin on you to talk to you because you were and intelligent woman. If so, why weren't these men joining book clubs for free? Please, I find this rationalization sad. You were naked. They were paying to see you naked. Yes, they were thrilled you would talk to them because they are looking for companionship, from a woman who EARNS MONEY by pretending they find them interesting. Both you and the customer can pretend this is about intelligent conversation, but please. I am glad you have an ongoing relationship with someone who NOW thinks you are too good for the dancing. tell me - did he come in there to meet this smart woman? Or did he pay the cover to meet the naked, subservient girl who would talk to him in the VIP room for tips.

And, just for the record, I still consider myself sex positive. I just don't think wearing a thong is a feminist decision, and neither is performing out heterosexual male fantasy.

"There's a really big world out there, including billions more people than you or I have ever met in our lives. Your personal experiences are important to the issue and at the same time they're not the whole entire issue.

Is it really so hard to acknowledge that sex work includes both willing workers and unwilling workers? I mean, we do that for other stuff like agriculture..."

To Mina :

No it's not hard to acknoledge that. I agree. I just expect that if my own experience as a sex worker is not representative of the whole entire issue, it must be the same thing for people who have no experience at all in the sex industry and pretend that the majority of sex workers are traficked or slaves or children or traumatised or manipulated by pimp because it's not true. There are both willing and unwilling workers as you say.

It's worse then when we are accused of denying an exploitation or being accomplice of patriarchy when we only have a different analysis of what our exploitation is and I consider the abolitionnist system as the main reason of our exploitation.

If we compare with other forms of exploitation in other working sectors like agriculture indeed, noone proposes to abolish agriculture or penalize people who buy waiters services to eat in restaurants. I give this example cause I used to work as a waiter and I felt more exploited than I am now as an independent sex worker.

It is only about sex work that the end of an exploitation has to be the end of the work itself. Why not abolish the work but why only sex work ?

About survivors, Yes I compare them with ex-gays cause their main problem is the internalization of shame and disgust they learned from the society and the abolitionnist movement. There is nothing disgusting in sex, even about a male body. People can become straight or stop working in sex industry but I dont see the point to want the end of sex work or homosexuality for all when you had a bad experience.

OK if you're forced to work you are a real slave and here is the violence, but if you have to work because it's better money you still can do another job and be poor.

well this is an interesting dialog.
I'm new here, and all those ideas generated from a single post? All that in a week or so? Wow, count me in...
So, I have a few questions.
I offer myself as someone who, for many years (20+/-), went to see dancers in clubs on all three coasts, and especially in Honolulu while in the Marines. In addition, I lived with dancers who frequently spoke of their experiences working in (topless) clubs. For most of that time I was a massage therapist (-and many people consider massage therapists to be "sex workers"). For the record, I haven't gone to clubs much over the last 15 years because I became a "social dancer," I don't like the music, and I do not prefer the "body-type" of most women who work as "exotic" dancers.

Anyway, I think I read through all the posts, but I do not think I saw anyone offer their perspective as a man who has had the experience of being with the folks who work in those clubs, but there sure were a lot of folks who reduced men's experience to suit their conception of sexual power dynamics.
I did see someone suggest that they were uncomfortable with having someone else substituting their judgment/perspective for that person's personal experience(s), and I most fervently agree with that.

There was also a lot of reduction of "pornography" and folk's (men's) motivation for viewing naked women -once again the motivation for this reductionism seemed to awkwardly cobble the individual's view of sexual power dynamics to a simplistic and reductionist view of sexual motivation in any given situation.
What's the difference between erotic art and pornography? -lighting...unless you are
Edwin Meese.Those who think that "men's magazines" hold women to an unrealistic physical standard have obviously not looked beyond the 7-11. There are magazines devoted to every size, shape, color, age and gender of people in every conceivable situation and combination. It would seem that the sheer egalitarian nature of what ALL kinds of people seek, would quiet the voice of those who reduce ALL of this material to some sub/dom patriarchal power dynamic.

So, here is a position, and I hope it adds to the dialectic: It is nice to see people dance for ANY reason. I like to watch folks dance without thinking too much about their "humanity," even as i consider that dancing humans are a great part of "humanity." I do not think I am "objectifying" them.
As that moves into the world of the partially draped, rhythmically-moving feminine form, I appreciate that experience as a man without any particular thought of power and dominance over a particular, rhythmically-moving female form. Some folks like to relax watching men in spandex and leather crash into one another to take the ball away, I prefer to view the befashioned or partially draped dancing female, and "I'll buy THAT for a dollar." Is that exploitation and objectification?

Finally, I am open to responding to ideas and questions. These are my IDEAS and EXPERIENCE, and not necessarily my BELIEFS... so have at...

Respectfully submitted,
Marlon
sic semper tyrannis

Hilary, how much time, exactly, have you spent as a sex worker?

"And please, Naked Feminist, no one was coming to the strip club and dropping coin on you to talk to you because you were and intelligent woman."

Never said they were. Yes, my being naked is a leading attraction.

"You were naked. They were paying to see you naked. Yes, they were thrilled you would talk to them because they are looking for companionship, from a woman who EARNS MONEY by pretending they find them interesting. Both you and the customer can pretend this is about intelligent conversation, but please."

So I was. Yes they were. Again, yes they were. And sometimes there IS intelligent conversation, but the center stage belongs to the women dancing in their birthday suit. I merely stated a lot of men find intelligent, conventionally attractive women, well...attractive.

"tell me - did he come in there to meet this smart woman? Or did he pay the cover to meet the naked, subservient girl who would talk to him in the VIP room for tips."

Of course not. Guys come into strip clubs for eye candy. I'm not going to deny the business for what it is. They like looking at a pretty girl naked.

Subservient, however, I take offense to. I, nor my colleagues, are at all subservient. I've never met a stripper who would roll over and beg if the customer snapped his fingers.

There is a double standard here but I see it differently. There are more female sex workers than male. The sex industry esp. stripping has not taken off with male strippers as it has with female strippers - that's the double standard. As for the customer, he does lower himself when he walks through the door and believe me on some level he knows it - he's just deflecting his own shame onto the person he thinks causes it.

@Marlon: "So, here is a position, and I hope it adds to the dialectic: It is nice to see people dance for ANY reason. I like to watch folks dance without thinking too much about their "humanity," even as i consider that dancing humans are a great part of "humanity."

I wish everyone held this view.

Let me ask a simple question: if I (and others here) am being reductionistic and overreaching in my assumptions about male sexuality and power, why then aren't there more mixed-gender performance strip clubs? ---that is, where men AND women perform and the clientele are straight, gay and anything in between?

If most men are so enlightened then forgive me for missing it. But I am certain that the market would picked up on this by now.

To further make my point, consider that most "clothed" dancing venues are mixed gender, e.g. a broadway show, dancing competitions, nightclubs, raves, etc,.

But when it comes time to pay to watch people get naked, whoops!, all of the sudden things change. This leads me to believe that it is not the dancing that people are paying for it is the nakedness.

And once again we are back to square one. Majority men paying to see majority women naked. I don't know, to me this is obvious...

And Marlon brought up a good point about getting men's perspectives. For 2 reasons, both sad.

The first is that clearly people have a hard time listening to women's stories on both sides. We don't even listen to each other either as evidenced by the accusatory tone in the comments.

The second is how funny it is how getting paid changes your perspective. Sorry for the slight, but it's human nature.

So for me personally, I like to hear from straight from the horse's mouth even if the info is anecdotal. I've asked male friends and acquaintances who have payed for sex; almost all of the guys I've asked have at some time considered it. And I can tell you that this existential crisis that we are having on this blog ain't happening for them. "It's just paying for tail"--as one guy put it.

But don't take my word for it. There is a quiet men's sexual revolution going on online. There are plenty of forums and blogs online for men who travel the world paying for sex, for example. Lurk for a while. You can at least get a feel for the overall climate, while still understanding that each person of course is an individual.

Or if you don't have the stomach for it, you can even listen to the musings of some camps of pick-up artists or dating coaches. The same basic male sexual perspective and motivations are there, except they believe that paying for sex is beneath them.

Don't you just love the stereotypes some folks, even some feminists, have against women in the sex industry?
For instance, "and they don't seem to realise "
In a comment on Feministing no less...
Wow, really? Didn't realize? Hadn't thought of it?
Come on folks, we can do better.

Anyway, I think you might appreciate this post by a retired stripper who was and is a feminist:

http://i-muse.livejournal.com/31517.html

as well as this one:
http://i-muse.livejournal.com/30983.html

Hillary,
Your prejudice is as palpable as your one sided-ness on this subject.
You have not spent nearly enough time in a strip club, interviewing feminist strippers, reading feminist stripper blogs, etc.
I understand your prejudice, as I once shared it.
There is so much more to that business than you understand.
It's OK. It's to be expected. Yours is a purely academic and sideline / peanut gallery perspective.

I hope you'll reach further than what you personally have or have not experienced and allow yourself to respect the voices of other women, even if they work in a different industry than you do.
Even if those women, feminist identified or not, make money with their sexuality/ sensuality.

I wish more people could be a little more visionary about their feminism. That they would open their mind to the forces that are moving our societies and the direction it's going. What kind of world do you think this will be in 30 years? Not to mention what kind of America?

I don't mean to sound condescending, but the US can come across as somewhat "dark ages" when you compare basic womens rights to Scandinavia.

And one of the things we can see historically as womens standing became stronger in Norway is that the "sex-industry" has become more and more frowned upon. But strange as it might seem it is the men in the industry who bear the brunt of this. As of November this year punters will be penalised. And traffic victims will be given free legal help and support.

And when I see that women in many US states struggle with rights to birth control and abortion. I can't help to make some generalising asumptions.

Man, I sound like such a bitch.

Martine Votvik,
Are you trying to silence women who have and share a different perspective than the one you want to have shared? Is her experience less relevant because it is not a majority experience? How do you know what the majority experience for sex workers, or strippers is?
Are you sure it is accurate? How can you be sure when so many are shot down when they open their mouths to speak- even on a feminist forum.
Are you in the sex industry? If so, please speak of your own experience. If not, when someone is discussing their experience, try listening instead of dismissing.
It isn't ideal to compare isms, but, since you took it there.
It is racist to deny that there are privileged, educated, professional Black folks in this country.
Acknowledging that wealth and privilege exists in the African American Community does not automatically deny racism.
Acknowledging that stripping can be a positive experience and a choice, is not saying all sex workers are choosing that work.

Please respect this woman's voice.

Interesting discussion. I don't realy have anything to say right now, except to adress the issue of Ms. Magazine being seen as porn. Technically, I have seen porn in Ms. I can remember at least one piece of "erotica" and I am fairly certain that Bitch Magazine has "erotica" in every issue.

Hmm, my posts occasionally are somehow assigned to other members of the feministing community, and I am not sure how that happens, but I am signing my posts from now on.

I am here in a feminist forum to present ideas I have about issues presented as "from a feminist's perspective." ...as if an old white guy's opinions need expansion. I am respectful and honor women; "they" saved me from a life of hell, and certain death if I had continued in my life's path as a Marine, circa 1975...and made me a dancer, instead...
Here in feministing I am offering myself as a "target" for some who would ask of the mind of man, and I am asking questions of the mind of feminists -fair trade and all. I can change ideas, if I like...
Can a man be a feminist
Thanking you in advance,
Marlon

Dear Folks,
How are dancers "sex workers?" Things may have changed over the last decade, but I haven't heard of "topless dancers" calling themselves "sex workers" ...ever...
I am not exactly sure how a semi-publicly semi-naked dancing woman is a "sex worker" ...folks can self-describe however they prefer, --but I am curious how observing a naked woman
moving -even "provocatively" -is "having sex" with them.
Most women who perform dance for an audience call themselves "dancers" -but you can find "topless dancers" -or "top-free dancers" who prefer to be called "strippers" -and consider what they do to be differant from "just being a 'titty dancer'"
Feministingers are surely aware of the Modern Burlesque movement/trend -check out Kitty Kitty Bang Bang here in the live music capitol of the world at one of the most famous punk-rock venues ever: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQUHNK3nKeM
I think this performance has some pretty insightful commentary about "The Cowboy" and maybe "Texas" -but perhaps they are actually "setting the cause of feminism back to the stone age." These women self-describe as "exotic dancers," "burlesque dancers," possibly "erotic dancers" or "strippers" -but I have never heard them speak about being "a sex worker" just because they are dancing on a public stage, (semi-naked in a "real cowboy clothes," for a very mixed straight and gay audience.)
"Belly dancers" sometimes self describe/prefer "Middle Eastern Ethnic Dancers" or maybe "tribal ethnic dancers" -but they dance in diaphanous clothing for money and pleasure -are they "sex workers?" Most belly dance shows have majority female audiences. If they are performing in a restaurant, of course the clientèle is mixed...
If someone who self-describes as a "sex worker" and thinks that dancing naked is "having sex," and that is their "work," ...well ok, but it seems to me that "sex worker" is just another pejorative and demeaning label used by someone who doesn't like non-traditional behavior and work. We feminists are against that, aren't we?

Thank you all for your consideration.
Sincerely, Marlon

How are dancers "sex workers?"

Anyone who uses sexuality as the basis for the way they earn their living is a "sex worker." And the dancer uses his/her sexuality (through the illusion of sexual fantasy, largely, though some strippers also do some light prostitution) to make money. Therefore, strippers = sex workers.

There's no requirement that you actually HAVE sex, you know? Phone sex operators are sex workers, for example.

@alexa
My suggestion is that these dancers do not self-describe as "sex workers" ...and it seems that some folks, in this dialectic "feminists" or maybe "real feminists" are using this "catch phrase" as a pejorative label.
Alexa, you said:
"through the illusion of sexual fantasy"
I presume you are using the feminist meme that men are watching dancers to play out "the illusion of domination and sexual control over women" and that any dancer that is "using his/her sexuality" to make money.
Leave aside for a moment that a LOT of people use every tool in their personal kit, including their "sexuality," in a lot of job situations to "make money" I have suggested that this meme is negatively reductionist, and does not contribute to the debate, nor is it accurate (according to my experience).
I gather you think that using one's sexuality to make money is wrong, and perhaps you think it is immoral, too. Perhaps you think that it is "exploitative" for "women to be subjected to this." The point of the "sex workers" side of the dialectic, as presented by Naked_feminist is that there are folks who have a variety of experiences that cannot be stereotyped as being "delusional" and "anti-feminist" any more than the cute waitperson who flirts for an extra 10%.

"Phone sex" is an oxymoron. Phone sex is not sex, except in the most expansive metaphorical sense, as in "The sexiest part of a woman's body is her brain."

Trying to link sex crimes, sex violence and global sexual exploitation to dancing/phone fantasy trivializes the debate, and lowers the bar and feminist credibility when confronting REAL evil.

um, I think, anyway...but I am just a guy.
Marlon

What I would like to know is why the author of this post believes that stripping is somehow related to her sexuality. Is she having orgasms while on stage? How is stripping expressive of her sexuality? In order for an activity to become an extension of your sexuality, you have to derive sexual pleasure from it. *Giving* sexual pleasure to others is not relevant to one's sexuality, and this is what the patrons of strip clubs understand and, in part, what makes the stripper fantasy so appealing: the understanding that another human being is debasing themselves for your pleasure. I've yet to meet a strip club regular who sincerely respects women; men who do respect women feel too uncomfortable with the unequal power balance inherent in the stripper/patron relationship.

It's like a cattle market with farmers watching livestock paraded around a ring, exercising their power to control the destiny of lesser creatures via purchasing power. Men who like strippers derive a fabricated sense of dominion over lesser creatures (as perceived by the patrons) they can "control" with their wallets. That's the fantasy they're paying for, that is why the customer in the story said "you're better than this", that is why stripping reinforces and perpetuates the patriarchy, and that is why stripping is fundamentally an anti-feminist job.

I'm an escort. I am educated. I was a rape crisis counsellor. I worked for Planned Parenthood. I sit on the boards of several feminist organizations. I have been involved in feminism since my early teens. I fuck people for money and I like it.

The guys are not bad. They're widowed. They're disabled. They have 2 jobs and no time. They're lonely. Neither escorts or our clients need to be vilified.

Thank you Naked Feminist!!!!!
from the Happy Whore

I tend to look at the sex-industry as a big network of different industries and businesses that all profit from the same misconception that "women have it" and "men need to get it".

I draw long lines here, and I realise it might look abstract to some.

I do not in any way deny that there are people with different experiences, and though I love to argue there is a simple truth to the fact that the one who draws the most accurate map is the one who flies over the land and puts things in perspective.

I will not accept claims that certain parts of the industry stays surgically clean from the others. Porn is linked to prostitution, exotic dancing is linked to prostitution, it's linked to trafficing and it's linked to husbands having the notion that it's their privilege to have sex with their wives.

Individual stories can sometimes obscure and confuse these facts, but they do not change them.

I can emphathise with "naked feminist", and I can put myself in her perspective and feel the insult of the double standard and the sweetnes of the repartee, because like most women I face hipocrisy and like most hard headed women I revel in shooting it down when I see it.

I don't mean to be condecending, but you can only study the industry for so long before it wears down your patience for ignorance.

And I don't care if I'm rude saying this, but you who don't manage to connect the dots, you are ignorant. And you better cling to that ignorance 'cause man is it going to sting when it breaks.

I was at the Womens Worlds conference in Madrid this year listning to women from all the world speak about these things. And my feminist group allso held workshops on activism.

I don't remember it clearly but I think it was Nawar El Saadawi who said it.
"It's the moment you realise the conections, that is when they try to shut you up"

Oh I do love a petty argument, but at the same time, this is the subject that scars my mind and keep me awake at night. So even if I plan to stay out of it, it will pull me in every time.

And while I'm being petty. I just gotta love the token enlightened man sharing his insight so genourously with us. :P

he has the perfect alibi doesn't he.

"um, I think, anyway...but I am just a guy."

Priceless.

I agree that the double standard exists, and of course it's ridiculous. However, it's also still true that you are participating in an activity which confirms and upholds the cultural attitude that you are only valuable for your appearance, and that it's appropriate to use and appreciate women's bodies as mere objects. This is something that you can't escape from. If you think that your customers are there because they appreciate your "personality," or talents, or political views, or anything else about you other than your body, then you are truly in a profound state of denial.

Sex Workers should have the right to choose how to use their bodies.

The puritanical laws of the United States are so obsolete it is ridiculous. A woman should have the right to choose how to use her reproductive system. If she wants to use it to bear children, fine. If she wants to rent it out to drunks at the bus station, fine. It's hers to use or abuse as she sees fit.

The law makes it very bad for men too, as women are the ones promoting the prostitution business. It is the women who dress provocatively and stand on street corners advertising, putting ads up on Craig's List or placing the red light in their window.

The attitude that these women somehow victimize families is also erroneous. Many men are trapped in unsatisfactory marriages with lousy wives and seek intimacy or sex on the streets with sex workers.

If this trade were made legal, it could be legitimized, de-stigmatized and cleaned up and made wholesome.

As the late George Carlin famously said, "Sex is legal. Selling things is legal. So why is selling sex illegal?"

"The puritanical laws of the United States are so obsolete it is ridiculous"

Nevada has legalized brothels and California is one of the worlds largest producers of porn. Elsewhere courtesans, strip clubs, escorts, etc are thriving. Many laws are put into place as a deterrent to underage sex and coercion even though the laws are not necessarily enforced that way.

"...women are the ones promoting the prostitution business"

This is clearly false. Prostitution is a multi-billion dollar worldwide industry promoted by men and women. In many countries (Israel, Russia, Italy, for example) the illegal side of the business tied to male dominated organized crime.

"Many men are trapped in unsatisfactory marriages with lousy wives and seek intimacy or sex on the streets with sex workers."

Not sure what this has to do with the topic, but OK. I'm sure there are many woman trapped in sexless and intimacy-less marriages as well.

"If this trade were made legal, it could be legitimized, de-stigmatized and cleaned up and made wholesome."

I'm still looking for solid data to support this claim across the board. At best the most valid predictor of making the industry wholesome is the prevailing cultural attitudes and gender biases that already exist within the culture.

For example, policies that work in the Netherlands may not work in Italy and may not necessarily work in the United States---for the same reason that Switzerland can have more guns per capita than the US yet one of the lowest homicide rates.

So in the end, if you want to change double standards around sex work, you have to change the double standards that affect all women. And to do that you have to ask yourself who really benefits more from keeping sexual double standards in place?

Marlon,

I gather you think that using one's sexuality to make money is wrong, and perhaps you think it is immoral, too. Perhaps you think that it is "exploitative" for "women to be subjected to this."

LMAO! Um, no.

Dude, obviously you haven't checked the link in my profile. I actually work as an escort, and spent three years as a dancer. Not only do I not think it isn't "wrong" or "immoral," I celebrate the fact that some elect to do just that.

My suggestion is that these dancers do not self-describe as "sex workers"

Your "suggestion" would be partially right - some don't self identify that way. Some do, however.

When I read that :

"I will not accept claims that certain parts of the industry stays surgically clean from the others. Porn is linked to prostitution, exotic dancing is linked to prostitution, it's linked to trafficing and it's linked to husbands having the notion that it's their privilege to have sex with their wives.

Individual stories can sometimes obscure and confuse these facts, but they do not change them."

I wonder if you accuse sex workers to permit the existence of trafficking and rape.

Yes I think that my clients dont value me only for my appearance. And even if I may be in a profound state of denial as you say, I also think that my appearance is not a natural data, but that I construct it everyday due to my personality.

It can be a sad thing, but I dont think that the capitalist system value all workers only for their personality, especialy for female workers.

So why blaming only sex work and not all other works ? Women are expected to take care of their appearance whatever their job. Why not abolish all work ? I am not saying I agree with that but I just see another double standard.

"However, it's also still true that you are participating in an activity which confirms and upholds the cultural attitude that you are only valuable for your appearance, and that it's appropriate to use and appreciate women's bodies as mere objects. This is something that you can't escape from. If you think that your customers are there because they appreciate your "personality," or talents, or political views, or anything else about you other than your body, then you are truly in a profound state of denial."

Schaffauser -

Most of all I blame the patriarchy, of course.

but when it comes to the individuals making their living in the industry. Let me explain by example.

Right now my feminist organisation in Norway have just finished a long and exhausting struggle to penalise the punters and protect the victims of prostitution. It's been difficult, but be wun trough in the end, the law will arrive in November this year and will include norwegian men abroad.

One of our fiercest oponents was the "national resource center on prostitution" that was lobbying for legalised brothels and more free condoms for the "girls". On their side they had two or three prostitutes talking about how womens groups like ours was making it difficult for them and how the coming law would ruin their businesses and make their work more dangerous.

They were always talking about the individuals who didn't have any problems, talking about how it was just another job and how it didn't affect them at all. And yet their main argument was that the marked would move under ground if the punters were penalised.

Knowing my city, I know that most of the marked already is under ground in apartments and masage parlours. And I know that the busiest time on the "street" is lunch, where would you take a prostitute if you had 15 min until you had to be back at your job?

I know that there is a broad spectrum of women working in the trade in Oslo, but the ones that speak up continiue to be the ones that own their own apartments and rent other places to work in.

Is it so strange that I worked up a grudge against them? I've heard from other prostitutes that say that they are sick of these women trying to be their face in the medias. And I've read enough reports and spoken to enough people to know that they are not only misrepresenting, they are flat out lying.

And if I'm still speaking about my own country, yes I blame those women for permiting traficing and rape. Because they went into the medias and said things like "it's not trafficing it's "sex-work imigration" and "if we ban prostitution there the men that "need" the sex will start raping more".

And many similar things.

I came out of this struggle feeling like the ones that feel perfectly fine in the "sex-industry" and that could leave any time, that they were creating a false image of choice and freedom. An image that didn't apply to the few I talked to, nor the ones I heard about, read about and saw standing on the street.

I blame the patriachy.

But those that are profiting "comfortably" from the patriarchy, I've come to blame them as well.

Martine Votvik commented at July 24, 2008 5:55 AM: "And if I'm still speaking about my own country, yes I blame those women for permiting traficing and rape. Because they went into the medias and said things like 'it's not trafficing it's 'sex-work imigration' and 'if we ban prostitution there the men that 'need' the sex will start raping more'."

What a bunch of assholes!

To Votvik,

So how do you think criminalisation of clients will not hurt all sex workers including those who dont like their job ?

I mean even if I imagine I didnt like my work, I still need to earn my life. Does your government plan to give an other income for people who will lose their clients due to the law ?

You say that only few people work in their own flat but dont you think this law can hurt their current independence (even if they are a minority as you think) ?

You oppose their argument saying that migrants are not traficked people but dont you fear to reduce migrant sex workers experience in considering them as victims of traficking ?

Does the law plan to deport them as usual ? or to let them choose if they can keep working in Norway ?

If sex workers activists are misreprentatives how do you consider yourself as better representative even if you re not a sex worker ?

Why "prostituted persons" who you know dont want to speak out to make hear their voice by themselves rather than let you talk for them ?

Dont you fear that criminalising consensual sex between adults is reducing sex workers as children who cant express their consent ?

How can you be sure that criminalising our clients is something wanted by sex workers as well ? Dont you fear to misinterpret what sex workers want ?

Why punish all the men with who we have chosen to have sex and not focusing against men who rape or abuse sex workers ?

Dont you fear that criminalising clients will make more difficult for us to impose our conditions to them ?

If a man can be punished just in being caught talking with me, dont you fear that I will need pimps to organise my business to meet my new clients ?

Why not considering clients as allies especialy in the strugle against traficking when they have access to sex workers and can denounce a traficking situation ?

Why not considering what swedish sex workers already say against the similar law in Sweden ?
www.sans.nu

I'm a little shocked and grossed out by a lot of the hateful, blaming rhetoric going on here. I don't really know what to say. But I do think that NOT all women in the sex industry are slaves and victims, I DO think that there are women who choose it and enjoy it as part of their sexual expression, I DO think conditions should be constantly improved for these kinds of jobs and I DON'T think it's too much of a stretch for a woman who takes her clothes off or has sex for money to still be respected and treated like a person by her clients.

It's pretty clear that the sex industry isn't going anywhere. It's always been around and it always will be. Perhaps it's America's weird double-sided puritanical history that makes us utilize such services while shaming the participants, but I don't think it's right. Do I necessary see stripping as the most effective way to express feminist ideals?- No. But can I open my mind to see how some women can find it empowering?- Yes!

Actually, in a lot of ways, I see stripping as being an improvement on certain types of main-stream modeling (in that at least erotic dancers are being honest with themselves).

But anyway...I'm done now, since my thoughts are kind of muddled and I don't have a conclusive point, per say.

I must admit that I shuddered when I saw the the heading to this topic, implying an adversarial relationship.

I would like to point out that most sex workers I know consider themselves feminists, that most people who work with sex workers and provide services to them are feminists, and nearly all of of us who do research in sex work consider ourselves feminists. In addition there are groups of feminists who have come together to advocate for the rights of sex workers, such as FIRST (Feminists Advocating for Rights and Equality for Sex Industry Workers):
http://www.workingtv.com/first-11june08.html

While I am obviously aware of how this issue has created schisms in the women's movement and feminisms, that is not the inclusive image of feminisms that I subscribe to. By excluding any class of women we merely perpetuate patriarchy.

This is not perhaps the place to get into the huge debate in philosophy and feminist theory as to the rights and wrongs of sex work, except to say that most of the time it is the wrong debate, and as Annette Jolin says, is argued on the backs of sex workers.

The real moral question is morally problematic 'othering' of a group of women because some people disapprove of their activities, thereby setting them up as targets for violence, and imposing the violence of stigmatisation upon them.

A feminism that sets aside those who do not necessarily subscribe to models of behaviour according to culturally dominant scripts will never succeed in achieving gender equity.

Yes there are abuses in the sex profession, as there are in all walks of life. Let us not make it worse - as feminists we are supposed to be good at unpacking issues - in this case the women's (and men's) activities from the circumstances in which they work.

Michael Goodyear
Department of Medicine and Women's Centre
Dalhousie University

Remember, gals, it's a market economy. Men need you and will pay money for what you provide. It's up to you whether you want to collect or not. Only a fool keeps donating for free.

Any woman who is still whining in this day and age about victimization, objectification, that men are jerks, etc. needs to wake up, smell the coffee, and go back to B-school.

Learn to separate sex and love like men do. Once women recognize that they have total control of their lives (and the world) if they successfully drop the male-invented moralizing and societal brain-washing about women's sexual power, the world will be a much better place for everyone.

Belle

I think you have a point, Belle. From where I sit it looks like men trying to have their cake and eating it too is only lessening their supply of 'marriageable' mates when the time comes. For the last several years I have heard nothing but moaning from all of my friend's male friends about how they couldn't find a woman who was a "nice woman" to date or marry. They all were really holding out for a woman without a past so to speak.

The fact that now that women have to share their relationships with porn and strip clubs and are consistently are asked to make love in ever more porny ways makes me wonder why they bother giving it away for free indeed. I've known many women who in their attempt to get their partners away from the porn have created porn of themselves. I've known women who try ever more kinky things in bed that they aren't really into just to keep his attention. Why do all this for free really? Especially since it's a hassle for many women. So, yeah, if every man is just another john why "donate it for free"?

Please respect this woman's voice.
Learn to listen, as women, men, humans be-ing,
it can only do us good to listen.
The VS. part is not necessary. Many sex workers are feminists.
Many do not choose the identification, yet, live independent, own their own property, invest in themselves and their families and are living an example of feminism. The woman whose blog I read, who was a math teacher and now strips, plays the market, sells stripper wear and teaches workshops on how to capitalize on your investments, is a feminist in my book.
What we humans do to make money does not define us.
It may inform us, but, it does not define us.

Every woman's story is valid. Every single one.

Every woman has the right to identify as feminist if she so chooses and ought to be supported by the community rather than vilified or dismissed. Of all the places to find so much prejudice against a group of women, this is the most disappointing.
Whether she is financially successful or experiencing poverty, whether she is a student or not, regardless of how or IF she earns money, she has the right to choose feminism and help define it from within.

Well I did harm reduction work in the area of drugs for about seven years, and because of that I learned about related outreach efforts in sex worker rights. Drugs and sex work in our society are viewed the same way: neither can be done safely or responsibly, and anyone who gets involved with it must be suffering from emotional problems and lack of moral character. The real problem is that both activities are so stigmatized and criminalized that it really is next to impossible to do these things without some sort of shame. I think I'm mainly rambling in support of legalization and regulation of drugs and prostitution, like in Amsterdam.

But to add to the point of double standards (and the prejudice against women in sex work), my friend told me about a case in Southern California where a law enforcer raped an exotic dancer and got away with it. I don't have the details on the incident, but basically the court sided in his favor because he was a well-respected officer in the community and she was just a stripper. The prosecution must've come up with one of those "she seduced him" arguments. This happened in Orange County, the most conservative part of California... ugh!

By excluding any class of women we merely perpetuate patriarchy.

The real moral question is morally problematic 'othering' of a group of women because some people disapprove of their activities, thereby setting them up as targets for violence, and imposing the violence of stigmatisation upon them.

A feminism that sets aside those who do not necessarily subscribe to models of behaviour according to culturally dominant scripts will never succeed in achieving gender equity.

Word. Thank you for that.

Le commented at July 27, 2008 2:58 AM: "I think I'm mainly rambling in support of legalization and regulation of drugs and prostitution, like in Amsterdam."

Do workfare rules there now exclude sex work, or can someone on public assistance officially be told "now that you got a job offer you don't need our help to buy food anymore" even if the job requires sex (as predicted in http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2001/12/18929.html )?

REGARDING OBJECTIFICATION:
What is "our" working definition?
Who first offered the idea that "men objectify women," and what did they mean?
What was their political/social/sexual background and perspective?
What does that idea mean according to the "Modern Feminist Perspective"?

I would like to personally thank the respondent who introduced me to the concept of "meme." It has been worth the whole ride.

Dear Fellow Femistingers:
A note to the "why can't we all get along" perspective:
The benefit of labeling two sides of the dialectic with visceral iconic terms allows for folks to weigh in on one side or the other and passionately contribute to "building the perspective." Ultimately, either both sides have validity, or one side's argument is not substantive, or a "false dialectic" is being presented.
OR
the dialectic is resolved, not by "one side winning," or "a compromise between the two sides of "the argument," or "agreeing to disagree;" it is resolved by recognizing a "third thing" that has resonance and respect of both positions.
OR
EVERYBODY runs out of juice and just doesn't care anymore, next topic please.

This topic has taken on quite a life of it's own, thanks to Naked Feminist. I would like to thank everyone who has been contributing (or sniping) to this forum, and I have grown in my understanding of "Modern Feminism."
SO, PERHAPS
Y'all Modern Feminists can help someone whose smarts are gender limited, and offer some definitions to things like "The Patriarchy" or "Objectification."
Thanks for persevering, I suppose there are some folks who think any "member" of the monolithic and unchanging Patriarchy "just don't get it."
...but no-one wants to be in a position of apologizing for their genitalia -right?

Marlon

I think it's wrong to call strippers "sex workers". They aren't performing sexual acts on anyone (at least not in any strip club I ever went to). If being naked and causing someone else to be aroused makes a woman a "sex worker", then most movie actresses who have done nude scenes (the vast majority of actresses) would also qualify.

There is a double standard here but I see it differently. There are more female sex workers than male. The sex industry esp. stripping has not taken off with male strippers as it has with female strippers - that's the double standard. As for the customer, he does lower himself when he walks through the door and believe me on some level he knows it - he's just deflecting his own shame onto the person he thinks causes it.
Posted by maeb

Part of that has to do with homophobia. If puritans have hang-ups about topless women dancing in bars, they go extra-strength ape shit over men doing it. Especially since "everyone knows" that men who work out a lot and keep in shape are "fags".

One of my old co-workers became a male stripper as a side job, and there were a lot of homophobic catcalls aimed his way once other people found out. I always chalked it up to petty jealousy (he earned more in one night at his stripper job than we earned all week, and was better-looking than everyone else) and spite.

God men are pigs!

At the end of the day men just think about one thing - having sex and dominating women.

asdasd

That's not true. We also think about football and power tools.

I think the men who visit strip clubs view the dancers as beneath them because, in their minds (thanks to patriarchy), finding a woman sexually appealing is degrading to her. Sex and violence are very closely linked in their minds.
They don't "get" that it's a double standard because THEY are not devalued or degraded in sexual encounters - it's always the woman who's dominated and dehumanized.
Posted by SarahMC

As a man who has gone to strip clubs in the past, I call bullshit on your thesis. It's true that there is a certain percentage of men who are misogynist assholes, but they're assholes whether they enter a strip club, the workplace, the supermarket or anywhere else. Most men go to strip clubs because drinking is fun, hanging out with the guys is fun, and looking at naked women is fun. The strip club offers a chance to do all three at the same time! With big-screen TVs you can add sports, too. As a pal of mine once said: "Where else can we watch the Super Bowl without being hassled by wives and girlfriends?"

Anyone who is worried about women working in jobs that are degrading might want to turn their attention from strippers to women and girls who have to work retail. They are treated very badly by customers and management alike, don't get tips, and don't have bouncers to throw assholes to the curb.

Some further observations in relation to the above:

Welfare and Workfare
No country has allowed that, which is an interesting observation on whether sex work is just another job or not.

There was a hoax circulated a few years ago about this happening in Germany, the details are on my website (under Germany).
http://myweb.dal.ca/mgoodyea/eurosex.htm#we

However, more seriously, as Sylvia Law points out in Beyond Decriminalisation
http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~usclrev/pdf/073302.pdf
that already is the de facto situation in the US.

Harm Reduction
The situation with substance use and sex work are analogous from an ethical perspective, and allow some common ground in that one can separate any personal feelings that might condemn or condone either activity, and apply pure moral reasoning to conclude that harm reduction produces the best solution. This has important public policy considerations.

Commercial or non-commercial sexuality?
As Viviana Zelizer points out, there is a continuum of exchange that pervades all relationships, on which what is commonly described as commercial sex is but one point.
http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8023.html

MORE DEFINITIONS PLEASE:
"pornography"
This was my post to the "Body Image" forum:
Dear Feministers:
Does anyone want to venture out on why the feministing "mud-flap girl" logo is so skinny with cartoonishly large breasts, and a size 0 waist?
I mean the raised fist and the extended finger suggests some kind of "in your face you repressive patriarchs" stance, but having Barbie giving feminist 'tude seems hypocritically inconsistent -but maybe I am missing some "secret symbology" or maybe some "we are reclaiming our power by choosing a symbol formerly used to oppress women" angle.
As a tangent, I hope the folks who believe that "pornography holds out an impossible physical standard that women are constantly compared to/compare themselves to" will acknowledge the many men who subscribe to "women of size" as their "physical ideal" -as evidenced by the many publications and internet sites that cater to men and women who prefer women who think The Venus of Willendorf is a total hottie ...er ummm, make that "exemplifies the ultimate in physical attractiveness while respecting Her thoughts and feelings in order to embrace Her as a 'whole person' and not 'objectifying Her' as a 'fecund symbol' conveying all there is to be conceived 'bout the nature of sexually mature femininity."
I am still looking for a working definition of "pornogrphy" that is different from the ideas of Edwin Meese and Andrea Dworkin (and Prof. Jenson's for that matter).
"Pornography" is always used here along with an implied pejorative sneer, and requisite commentary about patriarchal oppression.

For now, for me, the difference between "pornography" (patriarchal, exploitive, bad, boring, predictable)
and "erotic imagery" (empowering, good, exciting, nuanced, embraced by "sex-positive feminists")
...is lighting...

Your results are solicited.

Thanks,
Marlon

GUY POSTING. I have been to around 6 strip clubs during my life. I don't find it degrading, cheesy, and know matter how you spice them up, they are never classy.

I don't think any different of a person if they choose to take off their clothes for money, have sex for money, or work as a corporate lawyer. Actually I think lawyers are slimy, so that was a bad example.

The only time I looked at them in a different light was when they were crawling around on all fours picking up the dollar bills. It was a very pathetic scene.

I could care less what a woman does for a career or how she makes her money. As long as she is a responsible citizen than why should it matter.

I just found this really amazing how many women commented on how this is wrong.

How many of you have toys? Have watched a movie that has nudity in it? Rented a Brad Pitt movie (you cannot say it is for the acting). There is complete double standard here.

I cannot imagine that you are all hard core. A woman is a woman and a man is a man. I am not what one poster called a brute, we are only responsible for war, some other thing and oh; Child pornography. To classify men as the sole reason it exists is the most ignorant thing a person could say.

In fact war is from greed. Some of the worst wars were started and run by women. Men are very simple, we always have been and always will be. Plenty of women provide, distribute, and supply pornography.

Women are not so innocent in the world. In fact some of the most devious and underhanded people I have met in my life have been women. Maybe I just can see right through men, but women, I guess it has to do with us trusting our mothers.

Power to the ponahney

Being a sex worker does not make me less.

That depends on what you mean by 'less'. Less rights? BIG NO. I'll help you fight for your rights anyday.

But if you mean 'less' as in people wondering why you don't do something else for a living (which is what I assume your good friend meant), that's normal. People don't work ONLY to make money. They do things they enjoy doing for a living, and things they perceive as making a positive difference to the world they live in; well atleast I believe that's what leads to sustainable happiness.

I cannot imagine myself enjoying working as a sex worker for a living. And I cannot see it making as positive a difference to the world I live in as becoming (say) a doctor, an engineer, an artist, a lawyer, an accountant, or a whole horde of other professions.

It's a different thing if you're working as a sex worker to actually make enough money to be able to do something you enjoy more later. I would respect that. Your aspirations are more important than what you're currently doing.

Your friend's thoughts aren't misplaced; you just managed to confuse him.

I have a problem with the assertion that being a sex worker is empowering, and allowing a woman to express her sexuality. The irony is that she is expressing her sexuality on male terms. Her sexuality is divorced from her as a person and made into a commodity to be sold and bought.

While the author of the article views her experience of working in the sex industry as positive, this is not the case for the majority of women. Many women are forced into prostitution due to poverty and social disadvantage. Others sell their bodies in order to raise the money to support a drug habit. Working in a strip club with bouncers protecting you is at the "sanitized" end of sex work. Engaging in sexual intercourse with endless numbers of unknown men, often in dangerous situations, does not seem to me a choice many women would make unless desperate. It is well documented that most prostitutes have suffered violence and abuse when working. Not a small number lose their lives.

Nor is it a coincidence that organized crime is so cosily entwined with the sex industry. Many prostitutes are forced to give up a large proportion of the money they make to pimps or others who find them their clients. Often these women are subjected to violence from their "facilitators" as well as their clients.

Men often travel to countries where obtaining sex is easy and cheap because the status of women is so low, and this is the only way they can earn a living. Some are even sold into prostitution by their families. My experiences in Phuket, Thailand, of seeing very young Thai girls in the company of middle-aged European men did not speak to me of empowerment. It spoke to me of exploitation and the use of power (ie money) in the plainest terms.

Then there is the ever-increasing incidence of people-trafficking where women are illegally brought into countries and treated as slave labour in providing sex for clients. In Australia, where I live, the women are generally brought in from Thailand. They are locked up, threatened, have no papers to say who they are and are often told that they have to keep working to pay their way out of their situation. In Europe, the same happens to eastern European women, and I'm sure the US must have its sources as well.

So while dancing naked or twirling around a pole in the safety of a strip club may pay well and bring in the money for some other aspiration, this is just one example of how a particular woman works in the sex industry. She is one of the lucky ones. For most it is born out of poverty, degrading, full of danger health and safety wise, and renders the women the lowest possible status a woman can have. Of course, this lack of status is never transferred to her male clients, and there lies the proof of the power differential. Women who think they are the ones holding the power in such a situation are deluding themselves.

Hi Naked_Feminist!

you inspired this post:
http://community.feministing.com/2008/07/feminist-stripper.html

I'm almost twice your age and a retired stripper who was a feminist before, during and after my experience in the strip industry.

May you enjoy abundance while you do a bun dance!
Keep on shaking up the dominant paradigm in your own unique way.

peace and love,
i_muse
aka
Grace
aka
Miss River Bridge

etc.

p.s.

Wow, there are a lot of scared, un supportive, prejudiced comments here....almost like a bad night in a club.

wow.
how sad.

I hope you'll easily brush it off and enjoy any support.

"Allow people to adore you without putting too much importance on their adoration.
Allow enough importance to enjoy it for what it is.
It is something that can help you move forward.
Due to it's fickle nature, accept adoration without attaching to it."
Thomai

"It is not what people call me, it is what I answer to that counts."
African Proverb

Laura
this:
"even if it wouldn't be the choice for me."
reminds me of women who say they support abortion rights,
"even if it wouldn't be the choice for me."

until they find they are pregnant and want to abort.

C'mon now- reach deeper.
You are not that different from a woman who strips. Perhaps that thought is scary, but, it's true. Strippers are women too.

Martine Votvik
Your comments are prejudiced. You do not represent me or all of the women I worked with. You are guided by stereotype rather than truth.
Please stop and take notice of that, work on it...
don't make me quote Ghandi-

Re i muse: The comments on this blog made by people who do not view being a sex worker as empowering are not borne out of fear and prejudice towards the women themselves. This young woman's experience of being a stripper is exactly that - one experience. Where I live brothels are legal if registered and subject to government controls which give some form of protection to the women who work in them. This is in recognition of the fact that prostitution will always exist, and the fact that it puts women at risk safety and health wise. The strategy is only partly successful in that illegal (unregistered) brothels still exist, organized crime still seems to be involved in the running of many brothels, and many women still work from the streets or engage in "escort" work. It has been shown that those working from the streets are most likely to be drug addicts and/or experience violence. For another individual account of working in the sex industry, I recommend to you "In My Shoes", by Kate Holden. This book is an autobiographical account of how a girl from an advantaged, middle-class background in Melbourne, Australia, became addicted to heroin and from there became a street prostitute to support her habit, and that of her boyfriend. She later "graduated" to working in brothels and describes candidly the men she serviced, and the expectations placed upon her in order to do her work. To give one example, when a client came to the brothel, the "girls" would parade in front of him in a lounge so that he could choose one to his taste. This sounds more like a cattle market than an empowering experience for a woman. Holden, herself, says in her book that when she was working in the brothel, and wearing her gowns and make-up, she deluded herself into thinking she was living a glamorous existence. Eventually, with the support of her family, and in order to break her heroin habit, she left the brothel and cut all contact with any person associated with her former life. Holden has managed to get her life together, complete her education and among other things, writes a column for the Saturday edition of one of Melbourne's daily newspapers. She is lucky that she had people around her to offer help and support. I recently returned from a trip to Sydney and had to visit a notorious area called Kings Cross. The area is lined with strip clubs, and outside in the street stand the prostitutes while men in cars trawl up and down looking for a likely candidate. The danger a woman puts herself in by getting into a car with such men is obvious. Then of course, there are the establishments where overseas women are enslaved to provide sex, which are raided on a regular basis. Conversely there are the men who go on trips to countries where prostitution is rife due to poverty and the low status of women, and sex is readily available and cheap. Being a worker in the sex industry can take many forms, and a stripper is probably the safest, as the woman works in an environment where other men are employed to keep her safe, and she does not have to engage in sexual intercourse with patrons. It is therefore more likely that a stripper would view her work positively and perhaps even empowering. Women engaged in prostitution are at the mercy of the whims and desires of the men they service, because they are paying them money in order to have that power. The power is with the men, not the women. To return to your original comments about other bloggers being fearful of and prejudiced towards sex workers, perhaps the fear is more to do with the continued existence of the power differential between men and women, particularly in the area of sexuality. The ability of men to pay women for sex, often in degrading and highly dangerous situations, indicates that for ALL women we are still very much second class citizens.

Naked_Feminist asks what she's doing 'wrong' by being a stripper and people have responded that she's 'hurting' other women by perpetuating the myth that women are sex objects, by allowing lustful men to ogle her.

Newsflash: As an attractive woman, she's doing that every time she walks down the street or goes to the beach in her bikini. Men are already looking at her! The difference is that in a strip club they're ogling her on HER terms and, most importantly, she's PROFITING from it.

Are you really saying it's preferable that she gives it away for FREE? Surely as a woman with a specific skill or ability (in this case, being drop dead gorgeous and a great conversationalist) she should be encouraged to capitalise on her talents? Wouldn't it be more of an offence against 'feminism' if she catered to the whims of men for NOTHING? As though her acquiescence was a woman's basic obligation or requirement?

AliCat: Kate Holden's book is called 'In My Skin' and she would be HORRIFIED to see someone using her experiences in an anti-sex work context. She did not "get her life together" (by leaving the sex industry) - she MOVED ON with her life. As people do. Kate holds absolutely NO bad feeling towards the sex industry. Don't use her words against her.

Hi AliCat

I was not aware that you had been made the official representative of a community that I also belong to, where I also have a voice.

It is your choice to disagree with my voice, choose not hear it, or dismiss it in any other way,
still
I am here
I am a woman
I am a feminist
I was a stripper
I continue with or without your judgment of my experience, just as you can continue whether you choose to appreciate understand it from another perspective or not.

I became a stripper years after formally studying feminism. I realize there is a lot of prejudice against anyone who has worked any aspect of the sex industry. Do you honestly feel the the most feminist response you can make to Naked_Feminist's post is to fill it with judgment, blame and alientation?

Many of us have taken Women's Studies courses (nowadays referred to as Gender Studies)
Some of us (very few I suppose) have also taken part in Womanism Support.
I wont blame women for the patriarchy. I wont fault women who choose to survive and possibly thrive by any means necessary.
You may have a problem wrapping your mind around that.

Grace with ease,
i_muse

Newcomb Turk said, "I think it's wrong to call strippers "sex workers". They aren't performing sexual acts on anyone (at least not in any strip club I ever went to). If being naked and causing someone else to be aroused makes a woman a "sex worker", then most movie actresses who have done nude scenes (the vast majority of actresses) would also qualify."

IMHO, many mainstream, indie and blockbuster film actresses are sex workers. That's my personal opinion based on what I know of the sex industry from the stripper perspective.

There was a scene in the film that Halle Barry received an Oscar for that is way beyond anything I ever did as a stripper.
Way beyond,
and yet, respected....?
Go figure.

Martine Votvik, I think the questions Thierry Schaffauser posed to you are all valid, and I hope the reason you're taking so long to reply to them is because you're spending time actually thinking them over.

I googled your name and came up with a lot of hits for the feminist organisation Ottar, so I'm assuming that's the feminist organisation you're talking about in this thread. Now as a fellow Norwegian, I can tell you the sort of feminism Ottar stands for appalls me. I also find your dismissal of the sex workers' own experience telling. Apparently you know more about the sex industry then they do, because they're in the minority of all sex workers, whilst you -- aren't even in the sex industry. On which level does this make sense? OK, so you "study" the sex industry, but if your studies don't include the positive experiences as well as the bad, how efficient of a curriculum do you honestly think you've got? It's not studying you're doing, but memorising propaganda.

No, I don't think all sex workers are happy. Yes, I do think sex trafficking is horrendous and should be stopped at all costs. But when you have these people telling you they're not miserable being hookers or strippers, why aren't you incorporating that into your statistics at all?

Two things about my own comment:

1) When I said, "Yes, I do think sex trafficking is horrendous and should be stopped at all costs. But when you have these people telling you they're not miserable..." obviously in the last sentence I was referring to the people on this thread. Not victims of trafficking!

2) The then in "Apparently you know more about the sex industry then they do" should be a than.

Sloppy ninjawork!

To ashkara: First of all, apologies for misnaming Kate Holden's book, especially when I have it on the shelf in the next room! In moving on with her life, and feeling the need to do so, isn't that an indication that prostitution and all that went with it in Holden's particular circumstances, were going to lead ultimately to her own self-destruction? The book describes her many failed attempts to get off heroin, and her need to continue with prostitution to support her habit. She also discusses the amount of money she went through, while living a pretty squalid existence. I do not claim to use Holden's book as expressing an anti-sexwork view (that is your assumption), just as an example of the realities of it for one woman. Isn't she doing that herself in writing about her experiences?

To i muse: I have never appointed myself as official spokesperson for any community. I am expressing my opinion, based on life my experiences, just as you are.

In the original posting by the young female stripper, she describes herself as a CLEAN dancer, therefore implying that there are different levels of working in the sex industry, some being "dirty". That dirty distinction, of course, would apply to women who engage in sex for money with their patrons. It is interesting that she feels the need to make this distinction and let us readers know that she is not engaged in such activity. I am not condemning her for doing this. She is just reflecting the views held by society in general about women who engage in prostitution.

These women are "dirty", sluts, whores, etc, but no such labels are applied to their clients, who seem to left out of the equation in most discussions on sexwork. This is a direct result of the patriarchy you mention. However, what I would like to see is a society in which women would not have to engage in sexwork to make a living, particularly prostitution, because there would be other options open to them. It is the patriarchy, while making them necessary, that also allots them their lowly status.

Nor do I believe that being a sex-worker and feminist are mutually exclusive. I just cannot accept the view that prostitution, in particular, is empowering for a woman, because she is not the one in control. She is divorcing her sexuality from herself as a person and putting it up for sale, and when the transaction is made and the money changes hands, her sexuality is then owned by the man paying for it. He is the one with the power.

I encourage you to visit some third world nations, particularly in SE Asia, where women have such low status that prostitution is the only way they can survive, or are even sold into it by their families. My brother, who has often gone to Bangkok on business, has related to me that these women are so desperate for money that they virtually throw themselves at a white man, often offering comdom-free sex as a "bonus". When in Phuket on holiday, I was walking down a street with my 16 year old son who was behind me when I suddenly heard a scream, "Mum!!!!!!". We were walking past an open-air bar of which there are many, and 3 young women had come out onto the street, grabbed hold of him and were trying to get him to go into the bar with them. I turned into a lioness defending my cub, and we later had a very deep discussion about why this had happened and the desperate nature of prostitution in countries such as Thailand. In discussing sex-work, we must not be blinkered and only view it from the point of view of what occurs in our own countries. It exists worldwide, and the women in third world countries who suffer the lowest status and put themselves at most risk, ironically to stay alive and eat, must also be part of how sex-work is viewed. These women are completely and utterly dis-empowered.

Ali cat, you said,
"Re i muse: The comments on this blog made by people who do not view being a sex worker as empowering are not borne out of fear and prejudice towards the women themselves."

That goes beyond simply stating YOUR opinion as it stands on it's own.

You continue to judge from books you've read and from your own conditioning & prejudice, rather than listening to the real stories being presented by women. They/we are clearly sharing something a little more faceted than you can possibly formulate on your own with the limited experience you've had with the sex industry outside of academic speculation.
I haven't read the book your speaking of, but, I'll bet my perception of a woman who had a life that was different than the over promoted (in this culture) soccer mom path would be vastly different than your perception. I am a film maker who is working to see the multi-faceted world of women's stories on screen, tough and easy experiences, mainstream and fringe, real life stories.

Your tone and your comments remind me a lot of anti-choicers/ pro lifers.
I have footage on a documentary I created (funded by stripping back in 2002) of anti- choice / "pro life" women One of them actually said, "...These women are dis-empowered...."

Sound familiar?

You might want to look at that statement and the attitude you have against sex work and sex workers a little more closely.
Then again, maybe not. Maybe it's easier to stand in judgment and nitpick a woman's story with your red morality pen.

I agree with the statement that we must look beyond our own country and our own culture. However, those stories do not cancel out individual stories from this culture...from
Amsterdam to Thailand there are a lot of individual stories. I'd appreciate it if we could make fewer sweeping generalizations when describing a group of women.
Whether those women are soccer moms, soccer players or sex workers.

The fact that sex workers are stigmatized in our culture would seem to be enough reason to look and listen more closely & with more compassion.
If one even needs a reason to employ compassion towards any women.

The stripper sub culture is layered in ways you cannot understand by dissecting one entry posted by one person.
If you are at all invested in getting some understanding of it, read some of the blogs out there written by women who strip.
http://hobostripper.com/
http://www.myspace.com/azavalon/
http://graceundressed.blogspot.com/
http://www.davkadeergirl.com/

None of them are claiming a perfect life by American standards, but, all are women with individual experiences.

Hi AliCat,

I've personally spoken to Kate and I know for a fact she doesn't believe she was 'self-destructing' in sex work. She DID have a problem with her drug addiction (that is, it was causing problems for the people she loved) and she DID seek assistance moving on from THAT aspect of her life. However, she has gone out of her way to tell journalists, etc that she kept working in the sex industry long AFTER she had given up drugs. Since then, she's moved on to other things because other opportunities opened up to her. NOT because she hated sex work. But I don't really feel comfortable speaking on behalf of Kate, so I'll switch to my own story instead.

I was a sex worker for a number of years, but I'm not any more. I, too, moved on. While I was still working in a brothel, I was offered a job in (sex industry) sexual health education. As that job started to take up more of my time, my sex work started to decrease. Eventually I was so involved in sex worker peer education and advocacy that I had no time left for sex work. Then I moved to an area where sex work was all but impossible and I ended up giving it up completely.

I didn't stop working because I WANTED to, but because I HAD to. I would go back to it in a flash. In fact, I intend to some time soon. I know people find it impossible to imagine that sex work could be empowering, but that's exactly what it was FOR ME. I have never in my life felt as wanted/desired/sexy/attractive as I did when I was working. I've also never been so financially secure and independent. I'm not for a second suggesting sex work is for everyone - but it was certainly the best thing FOR ME.

I've never done drugs, never been forced into anything by a 'pimp' or partner and I've always had other options open to me. Sex work was an option I freely chose. I wouldn't look down on someone for making that choice any more than I would look down on someone for having sex before marriage or engaging in homosexual sex (both of which are deigned abhorrent by large sections of our society).

I'm sorry that some women out there feel I'm doing them a disservice, but my own idea of feminism grants me the right to autonomy and control over my own body. And for the record, sex workers are ALWAYS in control during the service. Whether she's selling sex or stripping, SHE sets the boundaries and SHE makes the rules. The client/customer does what he's damn well told. Any sex worker will tell you that. A sex worker who ISN'T in control is a victim of bad sex industry laws which allow clients and employers to abuse them without penalty...but that's a whole other story.

To MetaHara: You make huge assumptions from my comments that I am prejudiced towards sex-workers and sex-work. How far from the truth that is. I also believe that a sex-worker can be a feminist. However, I also believe those "soccer-mums" you lump together as if they are one homogenous group can be feminists too. Feminism is not about limiting our defition to particular ways of living or value systems. If we do that, we are as guilty of limiting women's choices in their lives as much as those we currently accuse of doing so. To transfer my arguments to the pro-life/pro-choice debate is nonsensical, as is your assertion that I stand in moral judgement of sex-workers. Maybe these are your own prejudices surfacing in assuming I must be anti sex-worker and pro-life because my views differ to yours on this issue, the issue being not whether sex-work is moral or immoral, but whether it is empowering for a woman.

I cannot agree with the view that sex-work is an empowering experience for most sex-workers, and I do feel it necessary to look beyond one's own backyard, and take a global view. As a film-maker, you must be aware of the 2005 Academy Award winning documentary, "Born Into Brothels", by Kauffman and Briski. The children of prostitutes in Calcutta endure the burden of being even more stigmatized than their mothers. In the majority of countries in the world, women who provide sex for money are marginalized and given the lowest status possible for a woman, while their services are freely utilized by men. This is the case too in modern, western countries, even those which have made an attempt to legislate to legalize sex-work and control the negative influences such as organized crime. No, I do not stand in judgement of the sex-workers. What I question is the double-standards which prevail with regards to the women and their clients, and the fact that most cultures and societies condemn the woman, but not the man for engaging in paid sex.

To ashkara: It is wonderful to read that you view your sex-work with such positivity, and that it has led you to other avenues of work, by choice, as you assert. Of course, you have the right to do with your body as you wish, as do I and every other woman. If only stories such as yours were the story for most sex-workers. You actually support my argument in your last statement when discussing the sex-worker/client power differential: "A sex worker who ISN'T in control is a victim of bad sex industry laws which allow clients and employers to abuse them without penalty...but that's a whole other story." To me it is part of the same story, not another one. Experiences of individuals, especially when positive, are wonderful to read about, but do not necessarily reflect the general experiences of sex-workers. In most countries prostitution is illegal so there is no legal protection for sex-workers. In fact, in working, they risk prosecution. Reporting abuse and violence is not going to be an option when one is engaged in an illegal occupation in the first place, and the men know this, so it places the power very much in their hands.

In a perfect world, the sex-worker and the soccer-mum would be able to stand together, both with heads held high in the knowledge that each had a choice in the path her life has taken. But in reality, we live in a very imperfect world, and one in which women bear the most of the brunt of moral hypocrisies and disadvantage. Isn't that why we come together on this site, to debate the issues that affect us AS WOMEN, regardless of social background, education, race, occupation, sexual orientation, marital status, motherhood and all the other variables which make us who we are?

AliCat

"Soccer mums"
are socially acceptable/ mainstream society. Strippers are stigmatized.
That is what was being discussed.
If you don't want to come off as prejudiced against strippers or sex workers, stop making generalized, sweeping, prejudiced statements.
If you want to retract a statement, do so, but, don't expect people to assume you think strippers can also be feminists unless you do.
Save the lecture for some much needed mirror time.

"Of course, you have the right to do with your body as you wish, as do I and every other woman. If only stories such as yours were the story for most sex-workers."

No one is awaiting your permission.
You've missed an opportunity to learn about a woman's story that vastly differs from your own, as well as from your assumptions, and instead, responded with a lecture.
You might want to take a look at that.

To i_muse:

That "soccer mums" are considered mainstream society and acceptable, and sex-workers are not, hence stigmatized, is exactly the point I was making when I said that in a perfect world, both groups would be accepted without prejudice for the choices they have made. How can sex-work be empowering for women when the overwhelming and prevailing attitude towards them is one of prejudice and stigma, as you point out yourself? Sure this needs to change, and it will be one hell of an uphill battle, but one worth fighting. It relates to the way women's sexuality is viewed and controlled, and the levels of acceptability placed upon the differing ways women express it. That stereotyped group, "the soccer mums", would be viewed as expressing their sexuality within the sanctified institution of marriage, and the fact that they have produced children as a result, in an assumed stable environment, brings further nods of approval. Sex-workers, in using their sexuality to earn money, places them at the lowest level of acceptability.

Individual stories are interesting but do not necessarily reflect the general experiences of a group. Nor is it a pre-requisite to actually be part of a group to be eligible to discuss the advantages/disadvantages they attract. If this were the case, very little discussion of social issues would occur with the result of negligible positive change. Disadvantaged and stigmatized groups often have very little voice, and even when they speak, people choose not to listen. In every society, for reasons of power, economics and religion, which all relate to the patriarchy, women who engage in sex-work are stigmatized and looked down upon. You are proud of your previous work and the work you do now, and it is a sign of your personal strength that you can be so in a cultural environment which could be very quick to condemn you. Don't point the finger at me as being prejudiced because I merely point out that your positive experiences are not the case for most sex-workers, particularly those involved in prostitution. It's a clear example of "shoot the messenger".

It is a pity that rather than keeping to the issue, you have chosen to make personal attacks against me, eg I make generalized, sweeping, prejudiced statements; I am lecturing; I am in need of mirror time; Nobody is waiting for my permission. However, the most personal attack of all is your assertion that I have missed the opportunity to learn about a woman's story that vastly differs to my own. Incorrect. I have read your story, the stories of other posters, and the stories of sex-workers in a whole variety of contexts, situations and countries. While some stories are positive, the overwhelming majority are not, because these women are regarded so negatively and marginalized in the societies in which they live. Also, I don't remember discussing "my own story", although you seem to be in a position to make ammumptions about it. I wonder what you assume my life to be? Yes, I have said I am a mother, so does that class me with the "soccer mums", who couldn't possibly be considered seriously as feminists because they've "sold out" to the patriarchy? lol

Maybe some "mirror time" would also benefit you in realizing that your positive experience of sex-work is not the case for all who engage in it. While basking in your own feelings of satisfaction and empowerment in the choices you have made, could you possibly be guilty of denying the very negative experiences of others in the same work? By doing that, you are drowning out their voice, and they deserve to be heard as well.

AliCat:
"How can sex-work be empowering for women when the overwhelming and prevailing attitude towards them is one of prejudice"

Thank goodness I do not look to you or others, let alone the mainstream to feel empowered.

I did not dis "soccer mums"
I was one after all (yes, I too raised children). I didn't say soccer moms were ideal or didn't have troubles. I didnt say my experience was all sunshine in any industry I have ever been in. I was pointing out that "soccer mom" is a mainstream, accepted position as opposed to one that is stigmatized by the mainstream.
I was the same women driving to the soccer field as I was driving to work on weekend nights.
Same exact woman, different time of day, doing a different thing.

Women treated me more differently if they knew I was a stripper than men did. Still do.

Not all the strippers I knew were also moms. I'm pretty sure I have a better idea of the range of women in the clubs (having been there so long) than you might have.

I've read your comments and i do not agree that you have actually listened to the comments and stories, here or elsewhere. Rather than expanding your perspective, you seem to be taking the stories of women and bending them to fit your perspective.
When you seem to lecture (IMHO) you may be doing so to those who once sang in your proverbial choir.

The answer to your question in the last paragraph is:
No.
I do not claim to know every womans story.
I am not basking.
I am not negating anyone's negative or positive experience. Not even my own negative and positive experiences.
I am speaking to you directly about the prejudice I hear in your comments.

If you were to tell my sister what it is like to be a black woman in the United States (and if you are not a black woman in the states) because you read stories and majored in African American studies, or because you volunteered in our neighborhood, she would suggest more than mirror time.
You see, like me, she is tired of people trying to fit her into their perspective of her.
I think a lot of women can relate to the discomfort from that.

Sometimes, it's nice when people listen to the minority(or subculture) in the room rather than telling us how we should feel, how we should be and how discussing our feelings affects the rest of our minority group (or subculture).

If you intended to come off as supportive of strippers, you missed by a long shot with me.

More than any course taught me,
I have my story and the stories that touched my life.

good- bad- ugly- beauty
blood- n guts
women's stories
are not only about being empowered.
Sometimes they are about survival and thriving.
Sometimes they are about demise.
Sometimes they do not fit the text book theory.
Bottom line-
there is no need for VS.
Strippers are often feminists.

As far as I'm concerned, we've exhausted this thread. You will either expand your perspective and employ compassion or you wont. It's not my business what you choose. You are not mine to work with on this any further.

peace,
i_muse