I have the big tits too... it's a pain, but I have found more often that it's not so much the comments from people (and no one dares to just randomly grab them, because I have an aire about me that says "if you touch me, I will kill you"... at least I like to think I do) but from the media and clothing manufacturers. I have found ONE bra manufacturer that makes bras that I like to wear, don't minimize me, and aren't ugly. That's the worst thing about big boobs, imo, ugly bras.

Of course, ladies with the smaller breasts suffer public ridicule too, and that's not okay either. The bottom line being that we have to stop allowing ourselves to be defined by our body-parts, and start smacking people (figuratively, of course) who seek to do so.

I'm a person, not a pair of breasts.

Girl, I so know what you are talking about. I have a C-cup size over here and I really resent hearing all the flirty jokes I get from my male friends, to the point where I have yelled at them and threatened to end our friendship. Thankfully, most of my male friends have realized what jerks they were and have changed their attitudes toward me.

Do you remember the 90s movie, Now and Then, with Christina Ricci and Thora Birch? Ricci was a tomboy who loved playing sports and had a dream of becoming a doctor. Anyway she had a full rack (of course) and there was a scene that showed her always taping her boobs shut with duct tape under her shirt, cos she didn't want to be girly at all, and she resented being "different" from the boys cos they treated her differently whenever she played sports with 'em.

I did the very same thing that she did. I did it on most days through-out junior high and high school.

I'm a D cup, and at 5'3" it is quite obvious that I have large breasts. I've suffered through the usual - male stares, girls telling me how they wished they had big boobs too, and people just generally feeling free to comment on them. What bugs me most of all though is that my own mother is always fussing at me when I show any cleavage. I'm 28, and I started to figure a few years ago that if I've got large breasts I might as well enjoy them. I keep them tastefully clothed at work, but on the weekends I like to wear V and Scoop-neck tops. If even a hint of breast curve is visible, my mother tugs my top upward for me. I'm not sure if she things it is in poor taste, or provocative, or is just being a Mom. But it annoys me that my closest female relative does this. Btw, she has smaller breasts so I don't think it has ever really been an issue for her, to hide or not to hide.

I am 5'2" and a C cup. I have always hated guys looking at me. But I believe that telling them like it is, is the best way to change things. I am quite unspoken. I worked for Cold Stone Creamery for awhile and every time some person was staring I firmly reminded them, that "hello, I am up here, thanks". That has been the best for me. I am not about hiding them. But I am about people respecting me. If they feel the need to look, I feel the need to embarrass them. Blunt has always worked for me!

Not that a snappy comeback helps much right now, but maybe someone can use it in he future.

"Wow friend's name, and I never noticed how your foot reaches all the way up into your mouth."

On the issue of bras, those of us on the other end of the spectrum have problems as well. I was at Target recently and found that there was not a SINGLE bra in C or lower (34A here) that wasn't padded. Or a push-up. I don't understand. Seriously, not every girl in the entire world wants bigger boobs.
Luckily Target carries some seriously cool sports bras, so I have all but given up my search for a regular bra that doesn't make my boobs look ten thousand times bigger than they are.

You know what solves the problem of male staring? A knee to the groin. It works wonders not only on the specific receiver, but to anybody else with testicles who happen to be in the room.

Seriously, though. Somebody touching you in an inappropriate manner is totally grounds for proactive self-defense. While the problem is with the people staring and making comments, not with the victim, the victim standing up for herself and not letting perverts do any visual spelunking (or worse) will usually get it to stop. I don't think that's blaming the victim any more than recommending woman carry pepper spray is.

I had Ds at 14 and I extremely upset when my C bra wasn't fitting anymore and the sales lady broke the bad news. I was obsessed that there was something wrong with the bras and I hadn't grown.

It's extremely creepy how a 40 year old man thinks it's ok to strongly come on and make lewd remarks to a 15 yr old because they have a large chest. I have been harassed constantly by men since I was 12 who were 30+. Why do they think it's ok? At most I looked 15 or 16 (in the face) when I was 14, so I was still obviously a child. It is extremely obnoxious how people treat you like your body is open to everyone because you are shaped a certain way.

I still get the harassment but it's not as bad as when I was 15. It's like men felt more comfortable harassing someone underage than an actual adult. Maybe because adults are more likely to fight back and not take their shit.

This is just a rant to your rant. I don't have any really good advice because you might be able to get through to someone to stop being an ass, but that doesn't stop strangers.

They are "a beautiful, sexy, powerful part of your body."

Damn right. Us hetero guys agree -- AND that doesn't mean we all define you by your body parts! The guys who do so aren't worth your time, and I don't want to be around them. Nobody should feel ashamed of a body part; and nobody should be made to feel ashamed for finding a body part sexy. The problem arises when women define themselves or men define women by their bodies; this detracts from a woman's dignity as a human being and denies that she is a whole person. It is immoral, and I see nothing wrong with teaching this to boys. (And it's silly to assume this sort of primitive thinking is confined to women's looks -- boys who are scrawny or "nerdy" and girls especially, but also boys, who are overweight are routinely ridiculed -- their personhoods reduced to a bodily characteristic.)

And damn it, I am sick of hearing people (especially, frankly, older women) condemning young women and young black guys for showing "too much." And I am sick of hearing certain other people (again, frankly, certain women) condemning men for admiring the female form (I'm not referring to strip clubs, which I abhor).

To all of them, I suggest you just get over it!

Axel, there is no difference between "admiring the female form" and objectifying a woman. They're the same shit with different words. Have some self-control, man.

Staring at a woman's chest is not "admiring", it's being an asshat.

Do me a favor and don't "admire" me if you see me. It's get really old. I don't want to be on display every time I'm in public. And wearing a dress or some other article of clothing doesn't mean I want to be ogled. It just means I have some fashion sense and enjoy nice clothes. I'm sick of the idea that unless your wearing sweats or a tent you are the property of others (and I still get harassed/ogled when I'm dressed like that).

Seriously, learn some self-control. I exert self-control every time I don't kick someone like you in the nuts. You can offer the same restraint.

Awesome rant :)
I get a weird reaction from other women in regards to my boobs. I'm 5'2, and a D- but I get the "you have no idea what it's like to have big boobs" line from other women... it's weird. I don't hide them, either. Puzzling, to say the least.

Axel- if you want to admire the female form, go pick up an anatomy book. It's not cool to objectify people, not matter how nice you try to make it sound.

it should be it's getting or it gets...

And the above is directed to Axel.

Or, better than any anatomy book, stop being a pervert. I know it's hard to believe, but it doesn't take much to resist the urge to look. With a little practice, you'll actually find yourself not thinking about sex at all when around women! Holy shit, we can do what women do all the time!

I wish the disparaging comments I get about my tits at least identified me as a woman, and didn't make me feel like a 12 year old boy :( I'd give anything to go even go to a nice full B from my AA! The boob fairy never came for me...

Alright everybody, thanx for commenting, this is the first thing I've ever posted on any site and the ammount of comments made me feel quite good about myself. So thanx! Um about the whole touching thing, that was a long time ago, and at this point there is not much I can do, I don't even know where those boys are anymore,this happened like 6 years ago in school. Then I was way more shy as well, if someone touched me now, I would not hesitate to knee them in the balls. Ya the older men thing bothered me a lot too, and when I was thirteen other then my tits I looked like I was 11 years old probably. Even now I'm 20 and people give me like 16-17. Axel, there is a difference between admiring a persons body dicreetly, let's face it we all check people out, and someone screaming out of a car, or a way older man staring very openly (while licking lips) at a thirteen year old girl, or someone feeling that because a girl has large breasts that pop out more it's ok to go right ahead and cop a feel, or publicly announce that someone has very large breasts and would like to swipe a credit card between them, I can go on but I won't, the point is the problem is not the simple act of checking someone out. Sorry Jessica but I have to have a mini laugh at Valentiti, hehe, ok I'm done, high school boys are so uninventive eh, my nickname was simply double D. Oh and I will definitely use the foot in the mouth comment, because it's almost a certainty that I will find myself in a situation like that again. Thanx!!!!

The only difference between discreetly checking someone out and being obvious about it is the lie inherent in being subtle. Objectifying a woman in any circumstance for any reason is a crime.

Wait,one more thing Axel, what's with this: condemning young women and young black guys for showing "too much." The black guy part. Meaning the whole pants down to the knees thing. (my question mark doesn't work on my keyboard)

ugh I totally understand - double D here, but I am tall so most people don't realize how big they are-just that they're large. anyways - I've always been so worried about showing "too much" in certain tops, but then my mom bought me a very low cut dress telling me that it's ok for me to dress that way cuz I'm 22, and Oprah of course had her back. Being told this by my mother helped - plus going to an all womens college. But now I'm back home where a MAJORITY of my friends are guys, and so now I worry again about what I wear, even though I know I shouldn't have to - I just don't want them to think of me differently ya know?

Riotgrrrl, you are a sick, twisted, perverted and depraved woman. Kicking men in the nuts is a crime. Noticing a woman is not a crime. Your inanity is breathtaking. Glancing at a woman, and admiring a woman, are NOT harassing or ogling her. Harassing and ogling her are harassing and ogling her. Sorry, but since you are THAT stupid (and you are THAT stupid), I must spell it out for you. Am I suggesting that it's OK to make a woman feel uncomfortable? Absolutely not. Like you feel an urge to kick me or any man who looks at a woman in the nuts -- you sick, perverted, twisted, depraved, evil thing.

This inane blather condemning men for being sexually aroused at the sight of the female form is what gets old, Riotgrrrl. Do ME a favor -- actually, do humanity a favor: don't deign to tell where I can look; don't deign to assume that every look is harassment -- because no sane and rational person is buying it outside your sorry ilk; and don't deign lump every male who looks at a woman into the "disgusting, objectifying" category. In your world, men should just wear blinders as if they were horses, I supposed. And if you try to kick ME in the nuts, you depraved, evil woman, you will, of course, regret it.

Open sketch, you would do well to read my comments. There's a HELL of a difference between admiring and objectifying.

I hope that a man criticizing a woman on their grammar is not sexist, but a couple of these posts have resulted in significant pain in the lexicon segment of my cranium. I find it hard to contribute to a conversation if I can't really understand a post.

This isn't really directed at anyone in particular, but it's just a trigger of mine.

And Axel goes off the deep end.

If a woman feels like a certain action objectifies her, SHE IS RIGHT. It's how it works. You can't tell somebody they don't feel something, it doesn't work that way.

Second of all, I am a man and I'd kick you in the nuts for you're stupid, sexist comments. Now imagine how the real feminists must feel.

There's the e-door, in the upper right hand corner. Don't let it hit you on the ass on the way out.

ugh, always with the boobs! it's really fucked up that apparently a significant number of people think that someone's breasts are public property, free to touch, leer at or make unsolicited comments on. it's also messed up how a woman with large breasts can wear the same shirt as one with small ones and be deemed "slutty" just because well, there's more chest there! wtf?

anyway, it's no picnic on the other end of the spectrum--just about everyone who makes bras assumes that we all want instant implants, if you can even find one in a small size to begin with and don't even get me started on the constant pity from all sides and mockery.

bottom line: we just can't win no matter what kind of bodies we have, because we live in a society that reduces us to physical attributes.

I have a love-hate relationship with my chest.

I almost fainted when the sales assistant told me what size I took (a 30FF). On the one hand, they stop me looking like a child (I'm 25 years old and 4ft 11 tall). On the other hand, they make wearing blouses impossible, and I have to wear a camisole under my work tops otherwise I end up displaying more cleavage than is acceptable in the office.

I. Feel. Your. Pain.

Though when you get too much bigger than D cup (no matter what body type/size/build you have you still get the stares (or people obviously trying to get a look but not look like they are staring), but the comments change from playful, not trying to hurt your feelings comments that are just plain inappropriate but they just can't help to blurt them out to people (especially other women, strangers mostly) telling you that you were selfish to get a boob-job (trust me, I didn't purposefully end up with J-cup breasts, nature happened), or that I am purposefully trying to stick them out there for everyone to see (they do that on their own, I don't need to help them), or to the supposed 'mother' figures asking me if my back hurts or if I have looked into insurance giving me a breast reduction surgery (not as bad as you'd think considering I have sports related injuries to my back and yes I have, but one, that would require more than just my basic student insurance and two, it is harder than you think to convince a doctor, let alone an insurance company that it is medically necessary unless the doctor has big boobs too).

When I was smaller (my small was a D, DD), I'd get those type of comments and obvious stares. Now, I know people look but I don't really give a damn. I'll wear what is comfortable and that's that.

Oddly enough (or sadly), since they've been in my opinion HUGE, the only completely negative or playful but inappropriate comments I've gotten are from women. Actually, I can't really think of any guys saying something that hurt or offended me and I have a lot of guy friends and boobs are often in the conversation, lol.

Open sketch, your comments betray you as a nutcase. A woman's characterization of an act may be paranoid, insane, or just flat-out wrong. Like you are. Go read my comments, tough guy who wants to kick me in the nuts, and try to have a rational dialogue.

You are pathetic.

Axel - This is just to give you a view from one woman...me. As a woman, I can say when I feel objectified by someone's gaze. Any person can determine that for themselves and it is a valid way for them to feel. If I saw you subtly or not-so-subtly admiring my chest, I would feel objectified and gross. I can say this fairly safely because I know how I feel when someone who is not my significant other is obviously looking at part of my body for their sexual arousal.

This may not be the case for all women. There may be women who enjoy and rejoice in this type of gaze. I am not one of them. The problem inherent is that you will not know that until *after* you have triggered my negative response. At that point, your apology can not remove the way I feel.

This brings to mind the open source boobs project controversy of a few months ago. I am not sure why the female form is often considered public space.

i too have the D-cup and have a difficult time finding clothes to fit and flatter. um, hello, clothing manufacturers? just because we have large breasts doesn't mean we have large arms, waists or necks! oi.

i left a job last summer because i had a co-worker who (in an open-plan office, with other people around) would tell me, "your tits look great today!", if i had the audacity to wear anything that even suggested that i was female. when i reported it to a superior, i was told that i should respond to this coworker that "he looks fat today." as if that's either professional or effective.

unlike some of y'all, though, i don't mind getting discreetly checked out. i don't dress to hide my figure, and why should i, damnit? i notice when my friends or co-workers look exceptionally nice, so why would i expect any different? i want my boyfriend to find me sexually appealing, and if other people do, too, that's flattery, though it doesn't mean much. to me, the problem comes when the check-out becomes really overt/pathetic or when someone assumes that because i'm attractive, i certainly MUST be stupid.

Axel just had a meltdown. Apparently wanting to kick someone in the nuts, think it over, and restraining myself is a crime and I am deeply, deeply depraved. And evil.

heh heh heh. I'm sorry, but your response is HILARIOUS.

Thank you for that well thought out explanation of the difference between ogling and admiring. Because as another post said, discreetly checking someone out and ogling are actually different. Like if a person can feel your eyes on them, that's ogling. But then again, you are a rational thinker and totally get this, as it is completely evident from your calm, rational demeanor. And if you're actually sexually aroused and erect just by looking at a woman, that's a compliment and the woman has no right to feel creeped out. I mean, you are ADMIRING her. She should feel flattered that you are aroused. And if she fantasizes about kicking you in the nuts or showing you to the door she is a depraved, evil, crazed woman.

And open sketch, you are sick and insane. Geeze, how can you even type those evil, evil words that support a woman's right to not be objectified. How dare you; you aren't evil a real man for that. A real man would have backed Axel's well thought out responses.

I hope you think about what Axel said and reflect on your thoughts and actions on the computer.

ha ha. Now he can call me dumb for making a mistake. It's supposed to read: you aren't even a real man for that open sketch.

I'm sorry I was just think about the evilness of open sketch's and my actions in this comment thread.

Opensketch cleary has serious issues. admiring a body a crime? Fuck off.

in other cultures where breastfeeding is more normalized, breasts are not nearly so sexual in nature for people. I read about a conversation that some anthropigists where haveing with a couple of women in a tribe in the Amazon, they thought it was super funny that men in the West were turned on by breasts..."ha, ha, like little babies!"

breastfeeding helped me become a lot more comfortable with my breasts, I'm very lucky in that I've never had anyone start with me about it in public. probably becouse when I nurse in public I have a look of "just try to mess with me!" on my face.

Great post. I know exactly how you feel - my boobs developed very quickly and a couple boys in my 6th grade class decided to make it their daily goal to torture me and make me burst into tears. I wore lots of layers to cover up my chest because I just couldn't take it any more - I wanted to pretend that my breasts didn't exist. These boys were so heartless and cruel, and I'm still a little self-conscious even to this day. But I've made major progress, and now I proudly wear tight or low-cut shirts because I love my boobs.

As far as this whole objectifying vs. admiring debate goes... I wouldn't fault someone for glancing, but for God's sake, look at my face while I'm talking to you. And don't think I don't see you nudging your friend and blatantly pointing at my chest or my ass. Have some tact.

I've been in many similar situations to the one described in this post, and the thing I always regret is not saying something like "That was VERY inappropriate. How did you expect that comment would make me feel?".

If I'm going to walk away feeling horrible about myself, at least the perpetrator of the crime can take a little something home with them, eh?

I'm always caught so off-guard though, that I just shrink or stare at them with a baffled expression.

Oh, one story I forgot to mention in my previous comment:

I was out with some friends at a bar this one night. One of my female friends, who is a pretty girl, was wearing a low-cut shirt. It showed some cleavage, but I thought she looked classy and beautiful. Suddenly, an older guy walked by and yelled "You have nice tits!" To add insult to injury, he walked by a few minutes later, pointed at her, and yelled again, "Still have nice tits!" I tried to follow him to tell him to never do that again, but when I said, "Excuse me!" he replied with, "No." and went into the men's bathroom.

That shit really pisses me off. I don't know where douchebags like this got the idea that it's okay to blatantly objectify and embarrass a woman they don't even know. Most women don't even know what to do in a situation like this. It's scary, it's frustrating, and we feel paralyzed. It's not always as simple as, "Just stand up for yourself!" And pretty girls with nice breasts get this shit ALL the time. Do you have any idea how tiring it would be to fight every single battle?

You have to pick your battles. Kneeing every guy in the crotch who glances your way might not be the best method. I choose when to say something and when to keep my mouth closed and hold my head high. I can shake off a creepy older guy glancing at my tits, but I can't let it slide when a pervert walks by and yells "NICE TITS!" twice.

Axel, maybe it would help if you explained what you mean by "admire." The problem is that for a lot of us, this has a negative connotation because it IS often used in excuses to objectify women -- as is the term "female form." And, yeah, what do you mean by "female form," too?

You need to understand these are pretty loaded terms, so it would helpful if you could clarify exactly what you mean. Also, just some advice you are free to take or ignore, but I would just jettison the phrase "admire the female form" altogether and come up with something else. Like I said, that phrase is used almost exclusively as a justification for objectifying women, and differentiating the physical attractiveness of women's bodies from that of men's (again, as an excuse to objectify women and explain why it's okay, even though men don't get such dehumanizing treatment (nor should they)).

And in addition to what The Law Fairy said, you (Axel) use the phrase sexually aroused when looking at the female form, that sure as hell doesn't sound like just checking someone out. Finding someone attractive and glancing is different than fixating on that person's form or making lewd gestures/comments.

Here's the quote:"This inane blather condemning men for being sexually aroused at the sight of the female form is what gets old, Riotgrrrl."

But I don't think there will be any calm, rational discussion and clarification of terms with Axel based on his responses.

"I wish the disparaging comments I get about my tits at least identified me as a woman, and didn't make me feel like a 12 year old boy :( I'd give anything to go even go to a nice full B from my AA! The boob fairy never came for me..."

I'm in your boat. I'm sure it's not fun to be made to feel like being public property for having a huge chest. But frankly, I'm made to feel like that sometimes for other reasons (I cut a very tall, slim silhouette that I think makes me stand out on the street) and I prefer that kindn of attention to being told I'm "ugly" or "manly" for having small breasts (which I got a ton as a teenager, and sometimes now too).

My sister, on the other hand, has D-cups. She's never complained to me about unwanted attention, although she probably gets some. But what she does is make fun of me (sometimes meanly) for not having boobs! So apparently even in her view it's better to be big than small... She's 19, so maybe she'll outgrow it -I don't know.

"in other cultures where breastfeeding is more normalized, breasts are not nearly so sexual in nature for people. I read about a conversation that some anthropigists where haveing with a couple of women in a tribe in the Amazon, they thought it was super funny that men in the West were turned on by breasts..."ha, ha, like little babies!""

Can I say that that, is just the most awesome story? I'm studying anthropology too. If you could think of where you read it, I'd love to me!

"With a little practice, you'll actually find yourself not thinking about sex at all when around women! Holy shit, we can do what women do all the time!"

Oh yeah, not to take the discussion off topic, but open_sketch, I'm a woman and I think about sex an awful lot. It doesn't preclude my ability to be friends with men (or women) of course, or to act in a way so that they can be comfortable around me, but that doesn't mean I haven't at some point or another wondered what it would be like to have sex with them. I guess I don't find those thoughts in and of themself to be transgressive or invasive....

I don't doubt for a moment women think about sex. But there is a big difference between a women "wondering what it would be like to have sex" with someone and the way a man thinks about sex. Woman have healthy sexual thoughts, but as anybody who has watched this blog for any length of time will undoubtedly know, men really, really don't.

I only date D cups or better so I absolutely love your attitude. You've come a long way, baby!

CNBC Sucks... wow. Just, wow. You're the sort of people that have ruined the world for those of us who are sane.

open_sketch: I have no doubt there is huge variety in how men think about sex, just as there is huge variety in how women think about sex. Now, if you're talking about cultural norms and the way in which many men feel ownership/objectify women, I'd agree with you...

CNBC: no comment -other than I feel like this could get interesting...

I don't know about you guys, but I think I can tell when someone is pleasantly attracted to and interested in me, and when someone is ogling and objectifying me, and the difference is NOT at ALL related to how "discreet" they are. It's sort of hard to explain what the difference is, but it has something to do with that sense of curiosity about another *person* characteristic of real attraction, vs. the end-in-itself "adimration of the female form" where there's no real drive to find out particular things about me, where actually talking to me wouldn't be sort of thrilling as it is for real attraction but rather something one just sort of sits through in order to get something else.

And as was previously said, the ickyness of Axel's statemens are really revealed in that "admiration of the female form" line. The fact that you're abstracting that form from MY form is totally arbitrary to the situation. Your so-called "admiration" has way more to do with this weird abstraction of femininity, what my body represents to you, rather than my body specifically as mine (viola: objectification!)

So yeah, I do really like it when people are genuinely attracted to me, and I also really enjoy being genuinely attracted to other people, and I think that this attraction *does* have to do with the body but does *not* have to do with objectification. Sorry if it blows your puny hyperbolic mind that I like being attractive (specifically in this sense) but hate being "admired" for my "form," Axel.

The only variety in the way men think about sex is orders of magnitude of perversion, as CNBC just displayed in spectacular fashion. I do my absolute best and even then bad thoughts sometime slip through.

well open_sketch, and so what exactly are you considering "perversion"? I mean, different people mean very different things when they use that word, and you'll find plenty of "kinky" feminists...

Generally, any sort of sexual fantasies a guy might come up with is perversion. It's objectification, either of individual women or women in general, and therefore is wrong. Men have to learn to control and suppress their sexuality or we'll never get anywhere. 'Course, that'll never happen, which is why I think that the separation of the genders is the most rational course of action.

"Generally, any sort of sexual fantasies a guy might come up with is perversion. It's objectification, either of individual women or women in general, and therefore is wrong. "

And so you don't think women's fantasies involve degrees of objectification -of men, of themselves, or both?

I'd disagree. I think for most people, sexuality is largely physical.

Not to mention, I seriously doubt you have intimate knowledge of all other men's sexual fantasies... I know men who say they think sex is better when they're in love and they really know and care about the person -and frankly, that is not a feeling I can relate to yet at this point in my life at all. I hate broad generalities about what men and women are like, separately, when it comes to sexuality.

...I hate to say it, but I'm not sure I'm cool with all this generalizing about how men view sexuality :/ We can talk about what it is that is EXTREMELY COMMON that we don't like without stripping men of any possibility of healthy sexuality, you know.

I still have zero clue why boob obsession and feminist attitudes should be mutually exclusive. It's absolute B.S. Oh, just because I am pro-choice, heartily support the empowerment of and equal opportunity for women, and am continually amazed by the intelligence, strength, resilience, and outright superior humanity of the women whom I have been lucky enough to have had in my life, I am all of a sudden supposed to ignore that I really like a nice, big rack? Give me a break.

Yes, I agree it's absolutely socially impermissible to demonstrate unwanted attention towards a woman's chest, but I will forever disagree that a boob lover can't be a feminist.

Open Sketch: Any fantasy is a perversion? That's far fetched. Women, including myself, have fantasies that don't just cover I wonder what it would be like to have sex with that person. I have plenty of friends that are raunchy with sex and they way they discuss it. Are those perversions? So I guess you are not sex-positive.

Thinking about sex and finding someone attractive is not immediately perversion, nor is wanting to have sex with that person/fantasizing about it. I don't really like your definition and the way you use that word. But we can disagree. What I think is obnoxious and what I didn't like about Axel is that he more or less said he has every right to stare at a woman as long he wants and it isn't objectification. Staring to the point of discomfort (leering/ogling), making unwanted sexual advances, ect are what I would consider objectifying/harassment. And yes, that covers becoming aroused just looking at a woman's form (not directed at you).

And CNBC is a troll that has been making jackass comments on numerous threads. I would ignore that person.

Women have every right to objectify men, first of all. Second of all, how exactly does one objectify oneself? Finally, look at the society men have created, the objectification and sexism inherent in the system. Men are perverts, simple as that.

Can I propose something which will surely be TOTALLY REVOLUTIONARY and HIGHLY CONTROVERSIAL at this point: maybe it's possible to love and appreciate another person's body without objectifying it (that is, specifically as their body, not some "form")?

Idiolect, I'm sure women can do that. Just don't try to get men in on it, it's a losing battle.

I love my boobs even though they are gargantuous. I am 5'0, 113 LBS and wear 34DD. I get a LOT of stares, a lot of objectification and a fucking LOT of comments. Every shirt I wear people think I wear it to show off my boobs. My boobs are often the topic of many a conversation with pretty much anyone that knows me.

It just basically comes down to this.

Big boobs=slut.

Big boobs=for your pleasure.

Big boobs= woman must want you to look.

Big boobs= it's your right to look, she should expect and accept it. They are *huge* after all.

I was kind of a gradual bloomer. I wore A, B and C cup in highschool and D my first year of college.
When I had smaller boobs I had a lot less stupid comments, but then again they were always somewhat big, but never huge like they are now.
I have noticed people define me by my boobs now. "Sarah, with the huge tits" Or talk about how much my boobs grew since high school. It's insane how people viewmy boobs as something they can freely talk about, like it's their boobs too or something.

It's bullshit, but I can imagine whether you have small or big boobs there's going to be problems.

I have accepted my body and my huge tits, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Well CNBC, from one less-than-ideally physically-oriented person to another, unless you're over 5"10 with a good build, an at least average package, dark features, and a nice haircut, I probably find you unattractive. And that has exactly /what/ to do with this thread now, and has what place in public discussion about showing respect to others? Oh right, none. Let's move on, please...

Open_sketch:
If you don't know men who can appreciate, love, and lust for women as humans rather than just objects, perhaps the problem is less men in general and more the particular men you spend your time around? I know my dad has a particularly abysmal view of male sexuality, and I largely chalk it up to him being a frat boy in college and keeping similar crowd as company afterwards...

So men can't have a sexual relationship w/o objectifying the other person? I disagree from personal experience. What if all a woman is looking for is sex; to get laid?

It's only a problem if a person is imposing them self on another (the unwanted advances I stated in one of the above posts).

Thanks, a.k.a. Ninapendamaishi. I cannot believe anyone would suggest, "Men have to learn to control and suppress their sexuality or we'll never get anywhere." !!!!! Are you out of your mind, open sketch?

As for the troll comment, I am not going to accept that. I have been trying to provide a different point of view on Feministing that men who are "regular guys" or even "perverts" can be supportive of feminist causes too. Some people on this blog don't like it, and I have even had my commenting previleges removed. All I will say here before I get booted again is that the battle for feminism comes this November 4, and I ask all of you to do all you can to make sure the Democrats win. John McCain is a bigger threat to the feminist cause than any creepy boob stares and comments you are ever going to get.

Open sketch: I am as sure as anyone ever can be about anyone else that I have known men who could, and because of that, I'm kind of sad about your comments. Seriously, I really do know and understand that the current culturally normative way for men to behave and even for them to think about things incorporates a whole lot of terrible misogyny, but I refuse to believe that every one of them is inherently a mere brute that we can't and shouldn't expect any better of. I really have been lucky enough to come across some just profoundly wonderful human beings who were men, and I want to be justified in my anger and disappointment when others display behaviors that these men would find repulsive.

John McCain may be a bigger threat in and of himself, but I don't think you can really separate one from the other. Men who are creepy boob starers/objectify women enable politicians like John McCain to do what they do, and vice versa.

And also, you don't know what it's like to be a woman in this society, CNBC, so how 'bout cutting out the patronizing? Making comments deliberately to come across as a jackass doesn't make you edgy -or thought provoking (to feminists who so /obviously/ lack your superior critical thinking skills *rolls eyes*) -it just, well, makes you sound like a jackass...

"This inane blather condemning men for being sexually aroused at the sight of the female form is what gets old, Riotgrrrl. Do ME a favor -- actually, do humanity a favor: don't deign to tell where I can look; don't deign to assume that every look is harassment -- because no sane and rational person is buying it outside your sorry ilk; and don't deign lump every male who looks at a woman into the "disgusting, objectifying" category. In your world, men should just wear blinders as if they were horses, I supposed. And if you try to kick ME in the nuts, you depraved, evil woman, you will, of course, regret it.

Open sketch, you would do well to read my comments. There's a HELL of a difference between admiring and objectifying."

I'm sorry dude, but if I can walk down the street, be surrounded by women, be engaged in a conversation with a woman, I think I'm probably noticing women. Yet, I'm not getting 'sexually aroused' as you put it. Interesting how I can have the self-control to know when it's appropriate and inappropriate to be 'aroused' and that you can't. Especially since I'm probably a lot younger than you (hence, societally I'm supposed to be a lot more immature).

If you're going to admire a woman, admire her for being more than tits.

"don't deign to tell where I can look", I'm so sorry, but as far as the law goes, she may not be able to tell you where you can look, but she has the right to tell you exactly where not to look.

Also, if you "admire" women so much, as you put it, how do you justify or find it appropriate to threaten to physically assault one? "And if you try to kick ME in the nuts, you depraved, evil woman, you will, of course, regret it."

Axel, I'm so so hurting for all the women who are in, who have ever been in, your life.

Fair enough on the patronizing, a.k.a. I know I can be a major irritant.

@ideolect: There has to be a way to be both a breast obsessed human being AND a profoundly wonderful human being AS WELL AS a feminist, but thanks anyway for your more balanced comment.

The second part of Axel's comment that I quoted ("Open sketch, you...objectifying.") should also be in italics.

Oh MY GOD, dreadhead mags. I know exactly what you are talking about no idea when exactly my booobs got this big, it seems as thought happened INSTANTLY. I am 36F and 5'0 size 4 jeans wearing girl, so they do not fit my body in the LEAST. As young as 11, the kids at my sister's preschool would grab my boobs, and none of the parents, including mine, would do anything about it despite the fact that it obviously made me uncomfortable. They would just laugh. I live in China now, and I've had 4 random Chinese people to date just grab my breasts as though they had the fucking right to do that because I'm black and have large boobs or something. When I lived int he states, ppl would constantly make comments like "I wouldn't even WANT my boobs to be that big..." How is that an acceptable thing to say to someone? I've had guys who were under me in rank at work tell me I need a breast reduction, I had kids in high school talk about my breasts as though I couldn't hear them.

I have wanted a reduction since I was 14 (I'm 24 now), and yet still can't afford it. Then people will ask me "why? your boobs don't look that big." Which makes me think are you fucking kidding me? It's like they're not even listening and are just completely dismissing my concerns. One girl actually said "don't do it because you think it'll make guys like you." WTF? You've known me for 6 months and you think I'm going to have a risky majorly invasive surgery so that GUYS WILL LIKE ME?? How about ALL OF THE OTHER REASONS that I listed for you? Like how I'm constantly uncomfortable? Like how they DON'T FIT ON MY BODY. Like how working out is unbearable some days because of the discomfort, How I can't sleep without a bra because it's too uncomfortable, but sleeping with a bra on isn't exactly comfortable either? How about the fact that it's REALLY difficult for me to find clothes that fit my body? How I can't participate in practically any fashion trend because they're extremely unflattering on me? How I've ALWAYS wanted to take dance lessons and martial arts but I'm much too self-conscious because of how large my chest is? Those are the reasons I want it, not because I "want guys to like me." UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

/end rant

Thank you for making this post! Good to know I'm not alone.

"There has to be a way to be both a breast obsessed human being AND a profoundly wonderful human being AS WELL AS a feminist"

I don't claim to have the magic formula, but I think a good start would be to not randomly imply to random women you don't know that they should be proud of their breasts /because you're turned on by them/...

Oh, for heaven's sake. open_sketch is a classic troll. He pops on to feministing to write stupid, sarcastic, outlandish comments, trying to cleverly making them sound like they came from a feminist. Don't respond to him, logical arguments get lost in the black hole of stupidity and lack of a sex life which makes him feel the need to troll the site.

In terms of boob issues, I'm totally there. I can't begin to state my frustration with the clothing industry. I've had some sort of dream of starting a clothing line for large breasted women, unfortunately, that dream begins and ends when I remember I don't even know how to use a sewing machine.

"I can't begin to state my frustration with the clothing industry. I've had some sort of dream of starting a clothing line for large breasted women, unfortunately, that dream begins and ends when I remember I don't even know how to use a sewing machine."

Darn, me too. Except they would be clothes for small-breasted women, of course. That's at least one thing me and my large-breasted sister can sympathize with each other on, the difficulty of finding properly-fitting blouses...

I mean, frankly, that's just one problem that I think is inevitable with mass-produced clothes in general. They're not tailor-made, and everyone is shaped differently...

MLEmac, I don't respect my own gender very much, I admit. However, I believe I deserve a certain amount of personal respect. Disagree with my opinions, my comments, my ideas, but comments about my personal life is uncalled for. Sure, I mostly lack a sex life. I'm also eighteen and the only reason I haven't declared myself celibate is because I've meet a person who I feel quite deeply about and who I believe makes my efforts to improve myself and my control of my sexuality worth it. Please do not judge me unless you know me.

I was kind of curious to see what responses CNBC sucks would get on this thread b/c he was provocative, but also very careful to avoid saying anything he didn't feel he could defend.

I don't claim to have the magic formula, but I think a good start would be to not randomly imply to random women you don't know that they should be proud of their breasts /because you're turned on by them/...

This is close to a good response, but I think it's a little off b/c it makes an unfair assumption about being turned on. In general, I think feminists would do themselves a huge favor if they could engage more effectively with the physical attractions human have for one another. I think Amanda Marcotte does a pretty good job of this, but the instinctive reaction to criticize anyone who says, hey, I like women who looks like X, is dangerous.

I think the argument should be something like, "If you judge a woman solely on the size of her breasts, you're objectifying her. If your sole criterion in whether you're attracted to a woman is her breast size, your sexuality is probably driven by an objectified view of women. But it's okay to have certain physical features play a significant role in determining whether you find someone physically attractive, which is probably a precondition for being interested in a romantic relationship".

CNBC sucks is kind of being a jerk by commenting in this thread b/c what you have here is women relating stories of being treated poorly by other people obsessed with their breasts (which is definitely a real problem). So it's a pretty insensitive time to proudly proclaim your passion for large-breasted women.

Ultimately, I think the question is just how much energy do you want to expend engaging people on these kinds of issues. I don't think every thread needs to be doing that, so the "go away!" crowd has my sympathies, but it's something to keep in the back of your mind.

Well open_sketch, if your situation is as you say it is, and you are that young, may I suggest doing some readings to get other perspectives on what normal, typical, and even healthy sexuality can mean?

"The Erotic Mind" is an interesting book that explores the psychology of sexuality, and one of its themes is how people who have very negative self image or are brought up with a sense of guilt surrounding sexuality as teenagers, often struggle more with relationships/finding a healthy sexuality later in life.

Also the website http://www.scarleteen.com/ is run by a great feminist lady and geared for teenagers with questions. I found it pretty helpful on certain issues when I was about your age, even. I think their discussion board may be currently down, but when it's back up it's a good place to discuss things like that.

Those are just a couple of suggestions -others on this thread could probably come up with some more...

I hate how nipples and breasts are sexualized. I'm not very big and I never will be, but I did start developing before anyone else in my grade. It took me two years to start wearing a bra because I felt like a whore wearing one, like I had something to hide.

Well, I don't want to get banned anymore than I am (I can't comment on the main blog), so let me see if I can provide some constructive input here. To any women who have experienced discomfort from a guy staring at their chests or even touching them, don't take it. Please make sure they are actually doing what you think they are doing, and you have to make sure that you can take whatever implications might come from the confrontation, but just confront the guy (or girl), ideally with a friend or friends, and try not to make a scene. Don't suffer silently. I hope that's not too patronizing. I think some people build up all sorts of complexes when they should be proud of their bodies, when all they need is some assertiveness. The problem is not your breasts, the problem is people and sometimes you have to set people straight. And to aka (just in case I get booted by JV), I agree...women deserve the best from the men in their lives.

"This is close to a good response, but I think it's a little off b/c it makes an unfair assumption about being turned on."

CNBC sucks made a point of saying he only dates women with D cups or larger -I think the implication he was going for was pretty clearly that they turned him on, thank you.

"I think feminists would do themselves a huge favor if they could engage more effectively with the physical attractions human have for one another. I think Amanda Marcotte does a pretty good job of this, but the instinctive reaction to criticize anyone who says, hey, I like women who looks like X, is dangerous... CNBC sucks is kind of being a jerk by commenting in this thread b/c what you have here is women relating stories of being treated poorly by other people obsessed with their breasts (which is definitely a real problem). So it's a pretty insensitive time to proudly proclaim your passion for large-breasted women."

I think you just explained yourself exactly where we're coming from, snark about how feminists could do themselves a "big favor" aside. It's all about appropriateness to the situation. It's not that it's wrong to /ever/ like big breasts -but to whom is that relevant? Maybe to someone who asks for your opinion, or a partner who appreciates your preference, or even someone you're wanting to start something with, who you had already established some sort of relationship w/ and you don't think would be offended by the fact you thought they were hot? Yeah, then maybe it's appropriate. But in the context of this discussion, about women not liking the way strangers treat them, and learning to be comfortable with themselves and like themselves aside from any outside approval? No.

I may be young, but I'm not ignorant. I read a lot on gender issues and sexuality, not to mention the extensive collection of feminist literature in my room. I don't say anything unless I feel I know what I'm talking about, it's pointless to argue from ignorance. Yet, every piece of media I've ever consumed (And I've deliberately avoided mainstream news and media since I was thirteen) has just more and more enforced my view that men are, generally speaking, scum. I use generalizations when I discuss my gender because I feel that not doing so give us too much credit.

I've honestly tried to change my opinions regarding gender relations, but when I think "happy thoughts" so to speak, it always feels artificial.

Also, my little sister (whose boobs are far bigger than mine) was honked at yesterday by a taxi driver.

Mind you she's ten fucking years old!

open_sketch

I am sorry I went below the belt (double-meaning intended), that was wrong of me. but you have written multiple posts on multiple threads that cross the point of ridiculous into obvious sarcasm, and attempts at satire. That is all you do without offering real dialogue. You're comments are man-hating and crude and either indicate that you have some serious self-esteem issues, or you are a troll trying to trick the cute little feminists into thinking that you are one and get them to say they agree with something like rape hotlines where whoever is accused automatically gets thrown in prison without due process, as if anyone on this site is actually suggesting such a thing.

(Wow, this thread is kind of a mess).

CNBC Sucks,

I think you shouldn't make the mistake of thinking that women who complain of being ogled in public /haven't/ confronted the men.

I haven't been ogled or harassed for boobs, but for other things, and I've done more and more confronting as I've gotten older.

But that doesn't solve a problem -the problem isn't women being too passive. It's a systemic problem that everyone contributes to, and men have to change the way they view women, and the way they raise their boys.

I mean, sometimes men make nice and not overly-sexual comments on the street, and I don't mind (like a guy today who told me I have a beautiful hair color). But if it crosses into rude and I respond negatively, sometimes I get called "bitch" "slut" "unfriendly" (oh the horror, I know). I actually had one guy say to me the other day, when I was waiting to be picked up from the train station and he'd made a couple of unsolicited comments about my appearance before attempting to strike up a conversation "hey, you're supposed to be all smiley and friendly and stuff!". That, I think, is one epidemy of objectification of women. Right -I've had a long day, I can't walk down the street without 10 guys saying something to me about my appearance, and yet while waiting for a friend I'm still supposed to play "good hostess" to some male stranger who passes judgment on me and makes some random comment to let me know about it? That's male privilige, all over.

I don't want or need the constant judgment -sure everyone does it sometimes, but keep it to yourself. No one likes to be constantly judged on their appearance or anything else, and women know what this is like far more than men do.

Anyway, yeah, the problem is systemic. And even for relatively self-confident women like me, it's an annoyance. Just because we complain about it on this thread doesn't mean we can't handle ourselves -but just b/c there are worse problems in the world doesn't mean this one doesn't need to be addressed.

Oh god, SUCH word. I'm 5'7 and a DD.

It was really bad when I was in middle school; I hit a C by at least seventh grade, and it sucked. People said I was a slut, my mum constantly yanked my shirt up and yelled at me for looking trashy- often in public- and trying to buy clothes was a nightmare when my friends all wanted to shop at Lmtd 2 or whatever.

(I'm 21 one now, and my mum is still doing that. I keep trying to explain to her that as a high busted woman with 34 DDs, everything even remotely cut in the styles I like shows cleavage, but she can't quite seem to wrap her mind around it.)

Every time someone is all, "Oh, I would kill for your tits!" I just have to stare. Why, for Chrissakes? Back pain and constant bra indents on the top of your shoulders are not the party you'd think.

There has to be a way to be both a breast obsessed human being AND a profoundly wonderful human being AS WELL AS a feminist, but thanks anyway for your more balanced comment.

Breast *obsessed*? I don't know about that. Why are you "obsessed" with breasts? I mean, there's a difference between liking/appreciating a physical characteristic (which is completely normal and understandable) and being *obsessed* with it (which is not). I would argue, actually, that obsession with breasts is *not* compatible with feminism. Obsession necessarily implies some level of objectification, and objectifying women's body parts is a big no-no in feminism, as I'm sure you must know by now.

As for confronting oglers, are you serious? For one thing, as Nina notes, many women HAVE confronted jerks who stare at them. It doesn't do any good. Second of all, some people are simply not confrontational. Add to that the fact that women are socialized even further to be non-confrontational, and frankly it is impressive when a woman IS able to stand up for herself. Speaking from experience, even when you are naturally an extremely outgoing and assertive person, trying to work against 20+ years of socialization to be meek, quiet, and sweet (and yes, it DOES happen to us, to some more blatantly and forcefully than to others) is fucking HARD. It can take some women years to get to the point at which they recognize that they have the right to insist they be taken seriously and that their bodies are not public property -- let alone to build up the courage to go up to a strange man (who for all you know may follow you to your car and do who knows what to you for having the audacity to stand up to him) and remind him you're a human being. I assume you are male, in which case you need to appreciate HOW MUCH easier it is for you to sit there in your privileged position and lecture women about how to stand up for ourselves. Because you know what a lot of us have learned from very unpleasant experiences, sometimes as far back as early childhood? Women who stand up for themselves are bad people, no one likes them, men hate them, they're stupid, they don't understand the way life works, they're annoying and not worth the time of day, and they're just loudmouths who have no place in civilized society. I can't describe the pain and struggle that has gone into reversing these patterns that have been unfairly burned into my brain -- and as noted, I started life out as a very talkative, precocious, confident youngster before society beat me into a cowering wallflower. Only in my mid-twenties have I started really re-emerging as myself. Do not presume to tell me this is some kind of simple solution. I have thousands of dollars in therapy bills that suggest otherwise.

/rant

Sarah,

It sounds to me like you have a mom problem. I empathize with the physical toll your breasts take on you, so perhaps you might be able to find a more supportive bra. One thing I do know from my experience with women is that they often have a hugely difficult time finding the right bra (sometimes they even wear the wrong size), and I think the right bra can make a huge difference in comfort and appearance. I would not worry about how certain clothes can make you look "like a slut", because you are right, just about anything would probably give you cleavage. Don't let people get you down, including your mom.

I once was a cashier at a nightclub, and some cokehead actually did run his credit card through my cleavage. And got thrown out.

Thanks, Jessica. And don't worry about it; until the mods develop super powers, I understand y'all can't be everywhere at once. ;D

As for the 'appreciate the female form' and 'find women attractive' dilemma; one sounds lcreepyt and toolish, the other is human nature.

Do I want the guys I find attractive to find me attractive? Hell yeah. Do I want people in general to appreciate the efforts I take with my looks? Yes. But do I want to be objectified or ogled or made to feel like those looks are all that matters? A resounding no.

If I wear a shirt that is fitted, I'm "showing them off". Same for if I use proper posture ("I'm sticking them out") or anything with a fashionable neckline ("Too much cleavage"). I'm nothing but cleavage! I had a female supervisor tell me and another employee that our clothing was inappropriate, when the shirts we were wearing were cut more modestly than her own.

I don't have anything to say that someone else hasn't covered on here. Except when someone says, "Nice tits!" I usually say, "Shitty pickup line!" Some others I've heard are "My girlfriend likes them" and "Thanks, I paid a lot for them" but those come across as flirty and you usually don't want to encourage that sort of thing.

It's a strange feeling when you realize your breasts are viewed by some as public property. I've become immune to men staring at my breasts (I've had my girlfriends point it out while I've chattered to a fellow, oblivious that he was NOT looking anywhere near my eyes), because I'm so used to it. But strangely, the most upsetting and obvious comments have come from women. As a teenager at a party my friend blurted out "Oh my god, your tits are HUGE" in front of everyone. I now wait for the point when newer girl friend will get a bit tipsy and pull me aside to let me know that I have big boobs. My own mother, when taking me for a consultation for a breast reduction told me something along the lines of "you should really think about this, because many men really like big breasts."

As for the bras, I had an awful time until I was properly fitted. As a 32FF (not a 36D as I thought), it's more expensive, but a lot more comfortable, pretty and flattering. Unfortunately, North American manufacturers ignore the fact that the bra alphabet goes beyond DD (it annoys me when they come up with a new line for "curvy" women, and they stop at DD), so if you want a pretty, supportive, awesome bra, I suggest looking to the Brits:

www.bravissimo.com ... they also make clothes for busty women (I'm saving up)! Or try supporting an independant boutique (if they're good they'll offer fittings and the full range of 30-48/ AA-L sizes).

I wear a 32DD with no hips or ass to balance out my chest, and my posture is horrible. If I stand up straight, I feel so self-conscious. My clothing choices are limited, I can hardly ever find bras that fit right, my back and neck hurt all the time, and yeah, men think I'm "open for business."

This is why it really bothers me when other women treat me like shit because of something that's not my fault. I've had so many other women act like growing boobs is something I did to make them miserable and then take it out on larger-boobed ladies. I'm like, "you're the one who's defining me by my breasts and then YOU get pissy about it?" It's so upsetting.

John McCain may be a bigger threat in and of himself, but I don't think you can really separate one from the other. Men who are creepy boob starers/objectify women enable politicians like John McCain to do what they do, and vice versa.

Posted by a.k.a. Ninapendamaishi

Bill Clinton spent his entire adult life (including his political career) constantly checking out women's tits and asses. He was a total horndog/pussy hound and yet...

He was the best President any feminist could ever ask for.

McCain's only interest in his second wife was her beer fortune. Not that it matters, since McCain could be a clone of Alan Alda and I still wouldn't vote for him, since he's in league with the Fetus Christers like Dubya.

I wish people would get over this "the personal is the political" bullshit, since Bubba was a clear example of why that is pure nonsense.

"He was the best President any feminist could ever ask for."

wow, that's not a sweeping generalization of an entire movement which has many different opinions on that issue.

I could give a detailed response, but I'm about to go to bed, wasn't there a good blog post about Clinton and the ambivalence feminists feel towards him? I can't find it, but I remember reading it a few months back.

"He was the best President any feminist could ever ask for. "

If Bill Clinton was "the best" President any feminist could ever ask for, we are in deep shit.

I'm not afraid to ask for quite a bit more, thank you.

And the fact that the likes of McCain and Dubya are quite a bit worse for feminists than Clinton, has no bearing on that whatsoever.

He was the best President any feminist could ever ask for.

Um, hardly. I could ask for a much better president. Was he good? Sure. Was he better than most of the alternatives? Fuck yes. Is he the best I could ever ask for? Absolutely not, given that I'm not severely imagination-impaired and, you know, completely stupid.

I wish people would get over this "the personal is the political" bullshit, since Bubba was a clear example of why that is pure nonsense.

What the bloody fuck? Because he was an etremely imperfect and flawed politician who also did some good things (and some bad)... therefore feminism's most fundamental observations about the human condition are wrong?

Okay, seriously, explain yourself, and do it WELL, before you permanently cross the line into trolldom.

"You have nice tits!"
"Still have nice tits!"

Ahaha, what a genius. *headdesk*

Open_sketch, I know people have pointed out the problems with your comments, but I wanted to say one more thing. Stereotypes and generalizations are wrong, period. Do you honestly believe every single man on earth is a misogynistic pervert, simply because of his gender? Are you a misogynistic pervert? There are always more exceptions than rule.

Misandry is (occasionally) more tolerated here, because yeah, we've probably all had frustrating encounters with men, and sometimes it's nice to vent. That doesn't make it okay. Hatred towards ANYONE because of their gender is unfeminist, including men. We don't want to be judged according to our sex, why would we want to force that on others? At the very least, keep it to yourself instead of perpetuating more stereotypes about feminist women and men.

You know, I wasn't going to comment on this. I typed my manifesto, thought better of it, and went to read Salon. But now that I see what this thread has become, I kind of wish I had sooner.

I'm as feminist as it gets, but I do wonder about some of these people who are obsessed with what other people are thinking about them. It's a physical form you are wearing, and there are things about that form that may call attention to yourself; be it big boobs, or a different skin color, or a higher or lower than average perceived attractiveness, or size, or what have you. No one gets to live in a bubble, free of unwanted attention. I agree with a few people here who say you either call people on it, you try to hide yourself, or you grow up and deal with it, maybe even with laughter. And all of those are your options, which is all you ever have--controlling other people being completely out of the realm of possibility.

Yeah, it sucks to be ogled, harassed, etc. At the same time, I don't think it is reasonable to expect that guys (or women who like women) not notice what they find attractive or repulsive or interesting or weird. How many of you with giant knockers have honestly never judged someone based on appearance, whether it be the black guy in baggy pants walking behind you at night, or the frat boy looking fellow hanging with his friends, or the geek? How many of you have responded more favorably to someone who appeared more convivial in your eyes? Are you really open and kind to every person regardless of appearance? Do you never make a well-meaning social faux pas?

As far as what someone is thinking when they look at you, who gives a shit? If you don't stand up straight and give the middle finger to anyone who hassles you, the only person at fault is yourself.

@Open Sketch

You made a joke, saying
“You know what solves the problem of male staring? A knee to the groin.”

When I read your joke, it gave me a very strong sexist, anti-male impression. Joking about causing such immense pain and suffering to men for staring? What a cruel image to portray in a joke. It comes across as very inhumane, and sexist and anti male. I don’t think that belongs on a website which is against sexism. If I were the moderator I would not allow such impressions of cruelty and sexism to remain on the blog.

One more thing, as far as the boobs go I've got a 34 C.. but they may be D now, my bras aren't fitting so hot these days. I've been ogled, felt up, shouted at... the whole shebang, I think. I've also been admired in ways that DIDN'T make me feel like a piece of meat, so I would agree there is a difference. Mostly it has to do with eye contact and a genuine desire to know the person... y'know, behind the boobs.

I've also been guilty of teasing my sister, who is much smaller than me in all ways, out of mean spirited jealousy. Now that I've noticed that tendency, I hope I never do it again. *Strives to be a better sister*!

"Joking about causing such immense pain and suffering to men for staring? "

What /is it/ with all the trolls today? We've all gotten hit in the groin, sky. Yeah it sucks but I can tell you're being melodramatic here...

Alby D,

Do you disagree that women are made to be aware of what other people think of their physical form more often than men are?

Okay, seriously, explain yourself, and do it WELL, before you permanently cross the line into trolldom.

It's simple: Name a president in the last 30 years who did more for the rights of women. His personal issues should not have been political issues, since his personal life is no one's business (the fact that the Republitards made an issue of Bubba's sex life proves my point). The same goes for Edwards. If their wives really disapprove of their tomcatting ways, divorce is legal and available. Not that it matters: It's their concern -not ours!

That kind of thing has no place in politics because it isn't relevant. But even if it were, the fact that Clinton screwed around means less than Jack Shit when it comes to who is better for the rights of women. Or homosexuals. Or anyone else.

Bill Clinton was a horndog and a half, yet he did better on the subjects of birth control, abortion, the Violence Against Women Act and countless other areas than any President in my lifetime. Whether he personally considered women as his personal playthings is irrelevant. Deeds matter more than thoughts or words.

The original subject (women with big boobs and the problems they face) has almost zilch to do with politics. Every man, woman and child has some kind of insecurity over this body part or that one. The government (i.e. politics) has nothing to do with that, nor should it. If it is, should men with hairy backs, beer guts and male pattern baldness consider their problems political issues, too?

"That kind of thing has no place in politics because it isn't relevant. But even if it were, the fact that Clinton screwed around means less than Jack Shit when it comes to who is better for the rights of women."

Do you notice how women are way underepresented in congress? Are you aware that that's largely due to the "old boy's club" atmosphere of the government in Washington D.C., and the way female interns and politicians do indeed experience sexism and harassment from these men? Dude... it's all connected. In major league government was a friendlier atmosphere for women... that would probably lead to more female politicians and benefit the "common woman" as well...

"Bill Clinton was a horndog and a half, yet he did better on the subjects of birth control, abortion, the Violence Against Women Act and countless other areas than any President in my lifetime. "

And he could have done far, far more. And we young feminists aren't afraid to ask for it, or to fight for it.

"should men with hairy backs, beer guts and male pattern baldness consider their problems political issues, too?"

Do you think these men have female strangers comment on their characteristics everywhere they go, or commonly treat them as less than human because of it? If anything, I've experienced men fitting these characteristics approaching me as though they had a /right/ to my positive attentions...

That should have read: "IF major league government was a friendlier atmosphere for women... that would probably lead to more female politicians and benefit the "common woman" as well..."

And, I know it's spelled: underrepresented

Name a president in the last 30 years who did more for the rights of women.

I can't. So? Just because he's the best we've done so far certainly doesn't mean we can't do better, and it ABSOLUTELY doesn't mean we shouldn't DEMAND better. The guy with an IQ of 100 is a genius in a world where the average IQ is 35. That doesn't mean he's the smartest someone could ever possibly be.

His personal issues should not have been political issues, since his personal life is no one's business (the fact that the Republitards made an issue of Bubba's sex life proves my point).

Okay, I think you really misunderstand the meaning of the phrase "the personal is the political." And, again, I don't see how Republican witch-hunting proves much of anything, except that they're witch hunters.

To say that the personal is political doesn't mean that everyone's personal life should be blaring on CNN, and frankly that's an awfully simplistic and silly way of reading it. It means that the things we do and the choices we make in our personal lives both reflect and affect political realities. If, in my personal life, I disrespect and objectify other people who share a certain characteristic, this has political implications, in two ways: 1) it raises the question why I think it is okay to treat those others this way -- was I raised to think this is okay? Is my behavior socially tolerated? Is my behavior reinforced? -- and 2) it entrenches the idea that it is okay to "other" the people I'm othering through my words and actions. Granted, I'm just one person. Is the fact that I'm an asshole going to affect some random person's life on the other side of the world? Probably not. But that's just the general overall difficulty with any kind of social programming -- virtually impossible to reverse, since changes are made on an individual level, whereas the problem exists on a systemic level (and for purposes of this discussion, the delineation between the two lies in some unclear gray area defined only by orders of magnitude rather than actual separate characteristics).

For you to say that it is irrelevant that the then-most powerful man on earth regarded women as his personal playthings is really troubling. Of course it's relevant. It doesn't diminish or reverse the good things he did, but holy fucking Lord YES it is relevant. That someone could do so much right by women, and yet STILL be unable to break out of his misogynist social programming, if anything, demonstrates the sheer power sexism holds over society. I.e., the personal (Bill Clinton's awful treatment of women) is the political (a reflection of ingrained cultural sexism and misogyny). "Political," by the way, doesn't mean Congress and government. "Political" means having to do with power. Personal interactions and dynamics absolutely demonstrate and interplay with the relative balance of power between the individuals involved. To try to pretend away the broader implications of individual actions is disingenuous and, frankly, cowardly.

"Do you disagree that women are made to be aware of what other people think of their physical form more often than men are?"

Yes, and no. The problem with this question is that each person's perception of what he or she is "made" to be aware of is entirely subjective. I think there are a lot of men who are just uncomfortably aware of what other people think of their physical form as lots of women.

As a woman, speaking personally and frankly, no one can make me aware of shit. I control what I acknowledge, and if I do not give two thoughts for what other people think of my physical form, then my experience is not one where I'm changing my behavior to suit them. Actions? Sure. Anyone who lays a hand on me without asking is asking for a kidney punch, regardless of gender.

In any case, lacking any material ability to influence the minds of people who think gross/stupid things, I am contented with not letting it get to me and not being like that myself.

I had size 34 c bra by the time i was 13 and i was hell! Boys would give my boobs nick names, throw paper balls at them, punch my chest; it's almost as if they couldn't express their sexuality in a peaceful manner at puberty so they acted out frustration by being complete assholes. I remember once i had a jersey shit that was blue and said 55 on the front. and this kid yelled at me and said my boobs were stupid 55 boobs. I'll never understand those middle school boob events. Then my 1st year of college at age 18 they grew again which was a shock because I hand't picked up any weight.
Now I'm 20, 4'11, with 34 D sized bra. Oh the woes of boobage.

"As a woman, speaking personally and frankly, no one can make me aware of shit. I control what I acknowledge, and if I do not give two thoughts for what other people think of my physical form, then my experience is not one where I'm changing my behavior to suit them"

Sure. To an extent. Doesn't mean life wouldn't be easier without assholes, though. I don't think there's anything "weak" or "pointless" about acknowledging that. To the extent that some men are maybe treated like shit sometimes b/c of the way they look, well, I think that's a problem too.

But I think it's a lot easier for a lot of us as adults with experience behind us to shrug that kind of behavior off. What about developing teenagers who tend to be more sensitive and impressionable? What about all the girls with eating disorders? Especially for girls growing up without a strong support structure, or with parents who maybe even /enforce/ negative messages they're getting about their appearance, I think this kind of undesirable behavior from society is pretty serious.

And so, obviously as an individual you have to handle yourself as is best for you individually -but as feminists looking towards social change, we have to talk about the systemic...

It's late and I need to go to sleep, so I just want to take a moment to thank Law Fairy and Ninapendamaishi for making the comments I would've wanted to make had I the time (and probably doing so more eloquently anyway) :)

Wow...these comments have been interesting.

38DDD here, so I feel your pain.

I don't think any of us large-breasted girls are saying that we wish men didn't find our breast attractive. My boyfriend loves my breasts and I love that he loves them. I love my breasts. I think they are beautiful. I think all breast are beautiful regardless of size and, yeah, they are easy on the eyes. The point is that my boyfriend loves a lot more than my breasts. He loves all of me, which is the important part. He's not objectifying me just because he likes my breasts and I can clearly recognize that.

However, there is a huge difference between someone being sexually attracted to my breasts (like my boyfriend who have I have invited to touch to them) and someone being obsessed with my breasts (like some weird 60 year old man who likes to stare at them for 15 minutes straight). I can't really define what I think is okay and isn't okay when it comes to men checking me out. It's just whenever I feel uncomfortable, which generally means that they have gone beyond "appreciating my female form" (whatever) and are starting to undress me in their minds.

Also, I think it is important that women talk about these things though because it is women that can say the most inappropriate things about other women's breasts. Yeah, some guys are weird and creepy, but the worst comments come from your friends. I have had guy friends make comments and I have had girl friends make comments and they drive me crazy. What makes anybody think that it's appropriate to just start talking about somebody else's body like that? I've had friends make comments about how huge they are, how they're really obvious in a shirt/dress (sorry, but DDDs are always going to be obvious), ect. Some of my friends have mentioned breast reduction surgery to me on multiple occasions. I have never once complained about my back hurting (because it never has) or anything. I'm not going to get breast reduction surgery just because my friends don't understand what is and is not appropriate. I'm not going to get breast reduction surgery because Victoria's Secret doesn't carry my size. No, I'm not having a surgery that could possibly kill me just because you can't understand that it's not appropriate to say "Wow, your boobs are sooooooooooooo huge" every time I wear anything that has a neckline that is anywhere below my neck.

Also, there is nothing more annoying than whenever my sisters or one of my friends see my bra and are say "Oh wow, is that your bra? It's HUGE!!!!!" Like no, I just bought a huge bra and decided to decorate my floor with it. Of course it is my bra! And if they're always talking about how huge my boobs are, why are they so surprised that my bra is huge too?

I'm not self-conscience about my breasts. I don't think these comments are intended to be mean. Yes, in middle school I got the mean jokes, I was the known as the biggest slut in my grade (I'd never even kissed a guy when I was in middle school), the inappropriate stares from older men, the unwanted touching, Now that I'm older people just seem to think it's appropriate to talk about my breast whenever they want to and however they want to. They don't say anything mean like telling me that I look slutty or weird or anything like that, but it makes me uncomfortable. I would never look at my sister's bra, who is a AA, and say "Oh wow! Is that your bra?! It's sooooooooo tiny!" That's just no appropriate and I realize that. It just makes for awkward moments when people feel so free to discuss your body and nobody else's just because your boobs are "huge." It's not okay and people need to realize that.

As for women having to confront men who stare at her boobs, I'm sorry, but that's just bullshit. Sometimes I do confront them; sometimes I don't. Sometimes I'm just not in the mood to yell at someone or think of an intelligent remark to make. Sometimes I think yelling at a drunk frat boy who may vomit any second will not change his views at all and he will probably continue to stare at women's chests.

All the time I think that my only two options should not be to cover myself up with a baggy turtle neck or to fight the world. I should be able to wear whatever I want and go out and not have friends and strangers talking about/staring at my chest. Sorry.

Yes, it's good to stand up for yourself. When I am uncomfortable, I make sure to make the man stop starring at me. Honestly, I just don't know what I can say to someone, who thinks that I am an object or a lesser human being, in the same conversation that involves saying "Stop staring at my boobs" that will honestly change their mind.

As someone who developed D cups by age 12, and who received leers and creepy comments from any and all males, including my asshole father and his creepy brothers, I developed a hatred for my own breasts. I eventually ended up having breast reduction surgery at age 30 (which really pissed off my now-ex-husband) and I have never felt better about myself. I feel as though I removed a gross deformity and made myself normal. My daughter, who is 19, and wears a double D, loves her big breasts and is well aware of the sensation they cause, not only among males, but among females as well. Some women are able to deal with the attention in a healthy manner, and some, like my twelve year old self, are not. I have never regretted my decision to have reduction surgery. I'm not advocating it for everyone; surgery was the best thing I ever did for myself. Men love breasts and they will stare, but if they have any class they will at least try not to get caught in the act.

Alby, reading your comment made me fucking livid.

You're saying that because we (big-boobed, "different" skin-colored, differently-sized people) are not automatically attracted to every human being that has ever crossed our line of vision, that existing with large breasts means that ogling and harassment are perfectly reasonable?

And as far as not giving someone the middle finger, it's completely ludicrous for you to suggest that just because we don't give them a crass symbol, that we are to blame for harassment. You know who is to blame for harassment? People who do the harassing. It's not my fucking job to give them the finger, and every time I've been groped (or worse), the fact that I don't know how to react doesn't mean it's my fault.

I agree with your point that you can't control other people's actions. It's THEIR job to not grope, assault, or verbally harass me. So it's not MY job to give them the finger, since you think that is apparently my job and that if I don't do it, it's my fault that I was harassed.

You are NOT as feminist as it gets. Far from.

Well, Rock Star, I do consider myself a feminist. And although it is kind of crummy for you to engage in a personal attack, you don't define me.

I don't know why you say "we" as if I don't have the same experience as everyone else here. I do. So much so that I have had to adapt a different reaction to harassment as not to live in perpetual despair and discomfort (which I for one, absolutely refuse to do). A reaction that, in being defiant (um, the middle finger? usually if not always metaphorical) towards harassers without rewarding their behavior with my attention and shame, seems to me to effect more systemic change than being "made" to feel like an exposed side of beef and wringing my hands about it.

My comment in no way indicated that ogling or harassment is good or okay. It did indicate all our bodies, male and female, are in the public view, and very few people can be said to not ever have, in one way or another, behaved in the manner that is decried here. Some of you have stared at handicapped people, however unintentionally. Some of you have made law-abiding African Americans feel like criminals. None of it is right, but if people realize what they do that they themselves don't like, then change comes much easier. To paraphrase a cliche, it starts with yourself.

Saying that it isn't your "job" to do anything about harassment seems pretty unreasonable to me. I daresay it is never a winning proposition to leave it up to other people to behave they way they ought. There's always going to be assholes in the world, no matter how much progress we make as people or feminists. I do consider it my job to ignore them when I can, fight them when I can't, and teach my daughter to do the same--without giving a damn what they think.

36DD here. I am so used to men talking to my chest, I don't know what it's like to have them look me in the eyes! Not only did this include my classmates when I was young, but my stepfather, friends' fathers, teachers etc. Because of the way I was treated, I have a few body image issues, and tend to cover-up and rarely (if ever) show cleavage.

I admit I have looked at other people and wondered about their choices in clothing, but I am a firm believer in "don't judge a book by it's cover." Just because there are certain sterotypes does NOT justify the use of them, and certainly does NOT excuse barbaric behavior.

I love Feministing. Having this site as my home page has really helped my view of myself in so many ways. One of them, is that I have started to wear the clothes I want to wear. If you stand up to ignorance - for instance the guy who passes judgment on you for having big boobs - if you force someone to look you in the eye and meet his (or her) ignorance with your intelligence you feel better. Oddly, my standing up for myself has resulted to men calling me a "bitch" or "unapproachable."

I'm 34 years old, and have finally realized that I've been conditioned by society to FEEL like I need to please men - like I am SUPPOSED to allow men to treat me like an object so that they will "like" me. Popular media does a lot to reinforce stereotypes. Western society at large has a difficult time with people who do not stay within these confining definitions. Because we like to categorize people, to have security in believing that the guy with the baggy pants and the gold chains is into rap music.

We need to stop accepting this - excusing other people's behavior. The guy at the bar call me a bitch when I don't respond to his admiration for my boobs; it doesn't matter - frankly, I don't need his approval to be myself.

If anyone is still reading, let me ask how you think these two comments might be received differently:
"I only date women with real curves"
"I am boob obsessed"

Even though both indicate a possibly unhealthy focus on physical features, I think the first would be received a lot better. And that's understandable given the experience women go through. But at the same time, you also have to recognize that from a man's perspective whether it's curves or breasts that you like, there's not necessarily much difference in motivation. And when I talk about 'doing yourselves a favor' I mean persuading people who could be persuaded that there are important feminist issues out there. Because the truth is that a lot more people could sympathize with feminist concerns but are not very tuned into them. I have never seen any of the male friends I have publicly verbally harass women. I'm pretty sure it's a minority of men who do it, even if they do it enough that's it's a serious issue. But if the response is to try and make men feel guilty for finding something attractive that women get harassed for, I don't think you're going to make as much progress in trying to establish that public harassment is inappropriate and should be frowned upon (if it's frowned upon by other men, I think that would help a lot).

I know I am going to get a lot of shit for this.

I read about these C and D cup women and think "how petite". I was an HH. My back, neck and shoulders were in constant excruciating pain. The skin under my breasts was constantly irritated and often covered with itching oozing smelly fungus because I could not keep it dry. I was not beautiful or sexy. I was a circus freak.

I was totally public property. Everyone, male or female, friend, colleague, professional, stranger, considered it their god-given right to stare, grab, grope, comment, make vulgar remarks, make filthy noises. A freak does not deserve consideration or courtesy.

The final straw came when I got what I thought was my dream job at Lawrence Berkeley National Labs. 3 weeks into my employment I had my mandatory physical and was sexually assaulted by Dr. Edward Manoughian (naming names is the only power I have), who groped, bounced and squeezed my breasts, laughing when I tried to pull away and commenting on my "gigantic tits", his words. I tried FOUR TIMES to report him. The hospital, the head of the hospital, my supervisor, the office on sexual harassment, no one would take a report. I was told I was making it up and besides it was all my fault, classic nut and slut. I was told in so many words that although what I claimed surely never happened, if it had it would be my fault since any man, given a chance to get his hands on "all that", was going to do so and was going to comment. I should not expect anything else and should not complain.

I was fired.

The county medical association would not take a report because they needed proof that would stand up in court, not he said she said.

I am reluctant to bring this up since EVERY woman I have talked about it to, all normal size, told me what THEY would do to prevent it. Apparently I am the only woman in the world unprepared to meet an emergency. I raised it with a sexual assault group and was told I was not actually raped (true) and to compare what happened to me to rape was an insult to women who were raped.

The only thing I could do was to be sure I was never in a position to "make up" something like that again. No male doctors. Ever. I don't care if it's a fucking fingernail, no males doctors.

I finally was able to get breast reduction. My doc said it was medically necessary since I had so much pain but then I had to battle Kaiser for months. The I had to lose weight, ironically, I had gained weight hoping to bury my breasts under fat. Kaiser then got back at me for fighting them by making my information public.

Yeah, I know, women are supposed to be proud of our bodies. But I bet the women saying that were never treated as freaks. I thought of them as the grotesque lumps I was stuck to. Now I can finally move, buy clothes that fit, walk down the street without hearing hysterical laughter and lip smacking. The scars from surgery are almost gone. I am in a new job and get treated like a normal person.

So don't give me any lectures about how sexy I was and how I had the wrong attitude. Not until you've walked a decade or so in my HH cups.

Tecolata, that sounds like a terrible experience. I'm sure it was only made worse by the socially sexualized nature of breasts, but I think there is also a general social problem with how we treat people who appear 'freakish'. I'm sorry you had to go through that.

Wow Tecolata

I hope you don't get shit for this, and if you do screw those people anyway. I can't imagine what it would be like to be HH, I can understand how you would feel like we don't get it, you know. As much as my boobs are out there, you can literally say your boobs were OUT THERE with a HH, and what happened to you is a horrible example of the many problems out there with how organizations that are there to help, deal with sexual assault. I can't believe that they said that what happened to you was an insult to women who have been raped. That's ridiculous, I suppose it wasn't as traumatic, but it still isn't right and I'm sure it still made you feel like a piece a meat that a man can do what he wants with. NOt OK! Congrats on how everything turned out though, glad the surgery went ok and you got a good job now.

very few people can be said to not ever have, in one way or another, behaved in the manner that is decried here. Some of you have stared at handicapped people, however unintentionally.

Fair enough, Alby. I think when I was six, I probably did stare at "different" people. Then I, you know, turned seven.

So I will give you this: if I see a six-year-old (you know what? I will be generous and go all the way up to TWELVE) staring at someone (or me -- although my boobs are pretty "average" I'm sure someone could find a reason to stare at me), I will give him or her a pass. But pretty much anyone else, aside from perhaps people with severe mental impairment, had better have fucking learned to function in civilized society.

Also, I just want to say thank you to all the well-endowed ladies who have commented here -- I have a couple of friends with very large breasts who have said things like they want to get breast reduction surgery, etc., and I don't think I've ever made rude remarks to them about their breasts. But I guess I never quite realized the depth of the callous way society treats them. So I really appreciate your opening my eyes to just how nasty people can be just because of one silly part of the body. I'm now pissed off on all of your behalves...

Tecolata, that's horrible!! Kaiser made your information public? Have you sued them? That sounds to me like it would be much easier to prove than the sexual harassment (which, unfortunately, yeah, is damn near impossible to prove, especially when the employer -- as they always do -- hires expensive lawyers)?

Hearing stories like yours makes me so angry at this world. A part of me wishes that I could hear about that happening to, e.g., a coworker or subordinate so I could try to do something (it would be harder for them to call me a slut, what with my demure and chaste C cups *vomit*) -- meaning, certainly, not that I wish this on ANYONE EVER, but rather that, given it's going to happen, I want to be in a position to do, fuck, SOMETHING about it. But I can only imagine how horrifying it must be to actually BE in that situation yourself. And to not have people believe you!!! ARGH it makes me so angry just thinking about it (insert "crazy angry feminist" stereotype here).

mpowell, have you been paying attention? Not a single person here has said there's anything remotely wrong with being attracted to women/breasts/whatever. Read the comments and try actually thinking about what they say before going off on a diatribe about things you clearly don't understand.

Also, anytime I hear a guy say he "only" dates women with X physical characteristic, alarm bells go off in my head. There's a difference between celebrating curves (without diminishing a lack of curves, which is also beautiful) and requiring them.

girls telling me how they wished they had big boobs too,

What's the harm in someone being a little jealous of you?

I have always hated guys looking at me.

People are going to look at someone if they find them attractive. It's not up to you to demand that people avert their eyes in your presence, you are not a deity, you know.

It's never made sense to me, to hear someone say "I want to wear things that show off my chest! I'm proud of it! BUT YOU BETTER NOT LOOK AT ME WHILE I AM SHOWING IT OFF!".

You know what solves the problem of male staring? A knee to the groin. It works wonders not only on the specific receiver, but to anybody else with testicles who happen to be in the room.

Looking at another human being is not a crime. Violently assaulting another human being, however, is.

Axel, there is no difference between "admiring the female form" and objectifying a woman. They're the same shit with different words. Have some self-control, man.

So what you're saying, is no man is allowed to look at a woman, ever? Humans are visual, and define physical attraction via visual stimulus.

I'm sorry, but, honestly, are you telling me you NEVER look at someone you find physically attractive? Do you walk around only staring at your own feet, for fear of accidentally viewing another human?

Objectifying a woman in any circumstance for any reason is a crime.

No offense, but, looking at another human being isn't a crime. I'm certain you wish it was, but it's not.

Even though both indicate a possibly unhealthy focus on physical features, I think the first would be received a lot better.

Being physically attracted to someone is important in a romantic relationship. Plenty of women refuse to date men unless they meet a certain height criteria.

Good point about women dating men who fit a certain height criteria. You know what to be honest, I'm guilty of that. I love my boyfriend very very much, he is taller than me but only by a few inches and he's kind of a small guy for his age, he's 20 so most likely he will beef up, but sometimes I find myself fantasizing about my ex who was a big tall guy (I hate him), but I found his size very sexy. I'm making an effort not be like that because it's really silly, and my boyfriend is not a huge guy but he's plenty strong and gives me what I need in bed. (But he cannot pick me up, which makes me feel kinda like I'm a huge cow, and thus makes me fantasize about said ex boyfriend.)

Good point about women dating men who fit a certain height criteria. You know what to be honest, I'm guilty of that. I love my boyfriend very very much, he is taller than me but only by a few inches and he's kind of a small guy for his age, he's 20 so most likely he will beef up, but sometimes I find myself fantasizing about my ex who was a big tall guy (I hate him), but I found his size very sexy. I'm making an effort not be like that because it's really silly, and my boyfriend is not a huge guy but he's plenty strong and gives me what I need in bed. (But he cannot pick me up, which makes me feel kinda like a fat ass even though I weigh 145 which is not so bad, and thus makes me fantasize about said ex boyfriend.)

Just as for suing Kaiser, I did try real hard to file legal complaints with the state department of managed care. Guess what? That long permission form that no one ever reads says they can share information for purposes "including but not limited to treatment or billing". That "but not limited to" means damn near anything. I was told I had no recourse.

The Law Fairy-

I think the point I would like to make is that you are much more likely to attribute the most negative possible interpretation to a comment by a man about his interest in women's breasts, while the likely interpretation will be much more favorable if his interest is more politically correct. I suppose that you can dispute that if you like. I don't think it's a very plausible claim, but since it's pretty subjective, I don't think we're going to get anywhere arguing about it. I'll add that responding negatively to CNBC sucks on this thread makes sense, b/c his comments were insensitive given the original purpose of the post- offering support for women who draw unwanted attention to their chest. Or to summarize, I think your reaction is a little knee-jerk, but that can be appropriate depending on context and that can be a useful thing to point out.

Good point about women dating men who fit a certain height criteria.

It's strange, I've noticed that in general, women are much more inflexible on this issue than men are when it comes to boobs.

A man can strongly prefer a large-chested woman, but he'll still date one that isn't, but the women I've noticed, (largely personal experience) that are interested in men of a certain height will never bend on that requirement.

Also, anytime I hear a guy say he "only" dates women with X physical characteristic, alarm bells go off in my head. There's a difference between celebrating curves (without diminishing a lack of curves, which is also beautiful) and requiring them.

To devil's advocate this (which I missed earlier), is it really so wrong to know exactly what one wants, and to go for what one wants?

It's never looked down upon for a person to ONLY date someone who fits certain emotional/mental criteria, which are just as difficult to change as physical, so why are physical criteria the only ones maligned?

I mean, I understand it's important to view people as whole persons, and not a collected set of physical attributes, be it height and muscles, or hips and boobs, but, I find that people who bend too far on it, and date people that aren't what they're interested in physically, just end up dissatisfied, and by extension, they hurt their partner, or make them feel inadequate.

If a woman knows her boyfriend really likes big busted women, and she isn't, she'll always wonder (no matter how much he might stress otherwise) if she's not attractive enough because of her lack of a large bust. The same would go for a woman dating a man who isn't tall enough.

It's really difficult not to feel inadequate when you KNOW you aren't fitting your partner's physical preference. (We've ALL been there, yes, even men) And like I stated before, physical attraction is a key, important factor in romantic relationships that often have a physical component.

Regardless, this is waaaaay off topic, and a huge tangent, so, apologies to the writer of the article for digressing.

Well blackthirteen I wrote it and I guess I kinda started this tangent, so it's ok. I worry a lot that I am making my boyfriend feel inadequate, I mean I don't tell him I fantasize about another man who is bigger than him, but I've said things around him not realizing until after that what I was saying was probably making him feel like he isn't good enough. So you may have a point there about knowing what you want in someone and the dangers of settling for someone who doesn't necessarily fit into your criteria. You MAY have a point, I'm not saying I'm going to go home tonite and break up with my boyfriend, but it is a point worth thinking about.

I also wanted to add, that I really don't mind that what I wrote has got so many people talking, even if the conversation has been going on a few tangents, I still got people talking and thinking. This is the first thing I've ever posted so it's a compliment to me that you've commented at all.

Well blackthirteen I wrote it and I guess I kinda started this tangent, so it's ok.

Well, as long as you don't mind.

I worry a lot that I am making my boyfriend feel inadequate, I mean I don't tell him I fantasize about another man who is bigger than him, but I've said things around him not realizing until after that what I was saying was probably making him feel like he isn't good enough.

Exactly. Even if you never say anything, someone is going to be aware of your ex, etcetera. One can just tell.

You MAY have a point, I'm not saying I'm going to go home tonite and break up with my boyfriend, but it is a point worth thinking about.

Yeah, never said you should dump him, but the thinking about it was generally the point. It's just something where you'd either need to seek out what you're interested in, or you'd have to have really, really solid communication and trust.

Why has this discussion turned into a debate re: preferences in partners?

This post was written by a woman who's gotten a lot of grief due to the size of her breasts, and then someone comes in to say "Don't worry! I only like women with big tits!" as if that has ANYTHING to do with the topic at hand. And now that many of us have taken offense to that attitude (that men's approval of our bodies is all that matters), we're being led down this path of debating over whether people are "allowed" to be attracted to what they're attracted to. Missing the point.

there is no difference between "admiring the female form" and objectifying a woman.

Yeah, actually there is. A huge difference. Objectifying implies seeing someone a ONLY their physical state and the sexual gratification it provides. Admiring a form does not indicate a lack of respect for other parts of the person. I admire male forms I find attractive, it's very different from objectification.

Also - D and C cups are considered "huge"? Where does it go from there? I wear a 34G, wtf am I?

Why has this discussion turned into a debate re: preferences in partners?

Because the creator of the article sort of took it in that tangent as well, and she said she was okay with it going there?

See above for that. If she's okay with it, I'd say it's safe to continue it, until she chooses to take it in another direction. I mean, it's her article, and her comment section, really.

Hopefully this isn't too off the mark:

My friend has a fairly large tattoo on her back, which is visible depending on her choice of clothing. She is victim to comments, poking, and unacceptably rude behavior, which makes her angry and often feeling very self conscious about this permanent part of her body which she wants to love. Sound familiar?

A tattoo is not a female sex characteristic, so her case is obviously not at the same level of sexism that dreadheadmags and others face. But it's a similar situation in which a woman is being discriminated against because of her visual/physical features. So how should she respond? She obviously doesn't want to encourage the jerk(s), but she doesn't want to be [equally as] rude and further whatever stereotypes that person has of a tattooed woman.

So, she explains to them, with a certain measure of pride, that it's a personal, power-affirming piece of art. And that's it, really. I want to quote slopants' comment here: "...if you force someone to look you in the eye and meet his (or her) ignorance with your intelligence you feel better." And while not everyone will react favorably to a strong showing of self-confidence (someone who is so rude in the first place is probably not the best conversationalist), you have done a service for yourself, and all the people who look a little bit like you.

Education and moderation are great tools. Do some people deserve a figurative kick in the nuts? Absolutely. But spreading tolerance is a tremendous way to empower yourself and educate others, and what better way to fight discrimination (at least at that interpersonal level) about tattoos, or breast size, or anything?

As a man, I don't know if I have the best advice to offer to the women on this thread who are routinely harassed because of their breasts, but I will suggest that responding to crassness with class and intelligence is always a good option.

Also, Tecolata, that sucks.

As I just said, I have G cup boobs, which aren't quite as big as HH but are a damn sight larger than C's. I'm fortunate to not have had nearly as bad a scenario as you did, but it does scare me that something like this could happen.

It's really obnoxious that my jugs are somehow open for comment and interpretation by anyone who so chooses.

It's crap that certain outfits are "obscene" on me when they're "cute" on someone with small boobs. Like anything with a pre-set boob area, you know, dresses with the triangle cups or tops with a rigid seam? Forget it. I don't always want to wear a tank top under my sundress because some jackass clothing manufacturer can't get it through their snooty size-fascist skull that women have different size boobs even if they wear the same size everywhere else. How about a size 16 dress with varying cup sizes? I'd really be very happy buying a 16-G dress if it meant I could have triangles that actually contained the ladies! And I'm sure there's a 16-A out there that would like triangles that don't pucker and bunch at her lack of boob.

And don't get me started on bras, especially if you have giant cups (meaning DDD, E, F, G, H, and so on) without also having a wide back. I tell you, I have some nerve having an average (34) back with my big G-cup cans! How dare I want to find lingerie that fits, is relatively attractive and affordable? If I have the supreme gall to be the size I am, I should have no problem shelling out $80 a pop for some fugly matronly number that's horrifyingly uncomfortable! Because my huge-boob-small-back combo is an absolute freak show! I have no right to expect the same products as the "normal" gals!

...

end bra-shopping rant of supreme sarcasm

daniel, I kind of feel your friend's pain.

I have a very visible tattoo on my wrist. It's the Chinese character for "year of the pig" and I got it to commemorate a trip I took to China two years ago. Apparently the very act of having a tattoo is an invitation for others to drill you about it.

What does it mean? Oh is that the year you were born? Exactly what year is that? Why would a white girl get a Chinese character? Are you certain that's what it means? Did it hurt?

I hate "did it hurt" because, well, fuck, thousands of tiny needles pouring ink into the delicate skin on the inside of my wrist? Nah, it was like my puppy was giving me kisses the whole time!

Also, when people ask what it means, it's a trick to me. Because they generally just want a translation, but to me that's just what it says. What it means is that I took this amazing trip and I wanted to celebrate it with this tattoo. And I really don't know why they think it indicates they get to ask what year I was born - first off, it's none of your business; second, it's not hard to figure out - if you can guess my age within 12 years you can probably figure out which year of the pig I was born in. Uh gee, she looks to be in her early or mid 20s, it probably wasn't 1995 or 2007...hmmm...

Also, the idea that tattoos are indecent and should be covered with makeup for formal occasions. Ugh. I remember I was with my parents in a hotel on some vacation and there was a wedding going on. The bride had a large tattoo on her back and my mom said something like, she's such a pretty girl and that's a gorgeous dress, why would she ruin it by not covering her tattoo? Uh, gee mom, maybe she doesn't want to cover it? Maybe she likes the way it looks? Maybe it means something to her and her new husband? Maybe it's none of your fucking business?

Also, I kind of want a tattoo on my lower back, and am actually turned off by the "tramp stamp" stigma. As much as I know it's a dumb reason to decide for or against a location.

Also a friend of mine with a word tattooed on her wrist actually had someone grab her arm and look at it to see what it said. Apparently body art = free to be grabbed as well.

Apparently body art = free to be grabbed as well.

Happens to me all the time.

I have a fairly large tattoo on the back of my neck, but I have a ponytail covering most of it. People (generally women) have no problem walking up to me, grabbing my ponytail to pull it out of the way, and then touching all over the tattoo, and pulling down my shirt collar to see the rest of it.

Happens constantly, at least once a day.

I think the point I would like to make is that you are much more likely to attribute the most negative possible interpretation to a comment by a man about his interest in women's breasts, while the likely interpretation will be much more favorable if his interest is more politically correct. I suppose that you can dispute that if you like.

I'm allowed to decide what I do and don't think? Why thank you!

Seriously, how do you know what I'm more likely to attribute to what? You *seem* to me to be basing your assumptions off of the whole Oprah culture "Big is Beautiful" thing. The problem is there is subtlety here that needs to be acknowledged, but you are pretty clearly ignoring it -- or, rather, pretending that feminists ignore it. You assume that thoughtful feminists won't notice the difference between a form of objectification that is obviously bad, and a form of objectification that SOUNDS similar to something positive. Seriously, dude, if you won't give us more credit than that, I'm not sure how we can have a respectful conversation, given your patronizing mindset.

I don't think it's a very plausible claim, but since it's pretty subjective, I don't think we're going to get anywhere arguing about it. I'll add that responding negatively to CNBC sucks on this thread makes sense, b/c his comments were insensitive given the original purpose of the post- offering support for women who draw unwanted attention to their chest. Or to summarize, I think your reaction is a little knee-jerk, but that can be appropriate depending on context and that can be a useful thing to point out.

I don't understand the point of this portion of your comment. My response to CNBC was knee-jerk? Because he pissed me off? Oh come on. Men get pissed off all the time while they're making arguments (and, in fact, studies show that this generally earns men positive reactions). Just because I am angry while I'm saying something hardly diminishes the force or legitimacy of what I'm saying. It sounds to me like you're trying to play the "crazed angry feminist" card under a different disguise. Well I'm not buying it. Was my response to CNBC emotional? Well, duh. These are emotional issues, everyone here has some degree of emotion, more or less, when responding to these issues (CNBC himself dove into the thread with some pretty angry-sounding and emotional remarks). Was it knee-jerk? Absolutely not. My comment was incisive (delineating the difference between obsession and appreciation, an important consideration to help evaluate the claim CNBC was trying to slip under our radars), comprehensive (demonstrating one of my points by way of example), and unflinchingly honest. So tell me, mpowell: what about what I said was "knee-jerk"? And, again, please don't patronize me by telling me whether or not my reactions are appropriate. I'm an adult professional with more education than most people can sneeze at and experience many would kill for. I'm pretty damned familiar with what is and isn't "appropriate."

Also, you haven't addressed the substance of my initial comment to you, which I'm going to repeat as I see yet another commenter has failed to pay attention to the things people have actually said on this thread: NO ONE IS SAYING YOU CANNOT LOOK AT WOMEN OR THAT BEING ATTRACTED TO WOMEN OR HAVING PHYSICAL PREFERENCES IS WRONG. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEING ATTRACTED TO/NOTICING/LIKING SOMEONE AND BEING A DEHUMANIZING JACKASS.

Christ on a C-cup, is the problem here an actual INABILITY to appreciate subtlety or simply an obstinate refusal to do so? I'm seriously beginning to wonder about some folks here...

It's never looked down upon for a person to ONLY date someone who fits certain emotional/mental criteria, which are just as difficult to change as physical, so why are physical criteria the only ones maligned?

BlackThirteen, now THIS is a really interesting question/debate, although I think far outside the scope of this discussion. I love that you brought this up, though, because it's something I've found myself thinking more about the last couple years. Why do we find it legitimate to discriminate based on things like intelligence when they are (for the most part) just as immutable as things like race/gender/sexual orientation/etc.?

Of course, I think that's more of a sociological/philosophical question, but I love thinking about that kind of stuff. And no, I don't have a good answer (at least, not one that I've yet been able to make consistent with the basic principles that guide my other moral beliefs) :)

NO ONE IS SAYING YOU CANNOT LOOK AT WOMEN OR THAT BEING ATTRACTED TO WOMEN OR HAVING PHYSICAL PREFERENCES IS WRONG. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEING ATTRACTED TO/NOTICING/LIKING SOMEONE AND BEING A DEHUMANIZING JACKASS.

Actually, a couple people have strongly implied that so much as looking, is bad.

Of course, I think that's more of a sociological/philosophical question, but I love thinking about that kind of stuff. And no, I don't have a good answer (at least, not one that I've yet been able to make consistent with the basic principles that guide my other moral beliefs) :)

The best questions often lack answers. :D

I'd say it falls under being socialized to think that physical = shallow, emotional/mental = "who they are", even though those qualifications can be just as shallow.

But I really don't want to derail too much, even with the author of the article's permission to digress.

The Law Fairy,

To your last question, I decided freshman year of college that that sort of thinking may date back to our cultural Ancient Greek heritage. The Greeks were the first ones who wrote that the mind was superior/more divine than the body.

(They also associated men more with the mind, and women more with the body, interesting enough)

I struggle back and forth, and try not to close off attraction to anyone, just b/c I know as a matter of fact sexual attraction /is/ a very psychological and malleable thing -but, ultimately I have to accept that for certain, psychological reasons, it's easier for me to be attracted to certain physical characteristics than others. I think that's a pretty normal, human thing, and is present to varying degrees in all individual, in all cultures. Of course, individual preferences vary pretty widely, and I think that makes up for some of the potential negative impact...

What I fight against, more then, are the people trying to justify their /own/ preferences, by saying that they are innate, biological, etc. and that all people share them... you find that kind of thinking most commonly among men in western cultures, I think, and I've wondered why that is as well. I wonder if it's for a similar reason that men are so afraid of being gay -it's like male sexuality in western cultural is held up as this powerful, almost sacred thing -and in order to grant it this religious status you have to make it this rigid, definable thing... and when you have an "ideal" female form, that makes it easier to objectify women.

I agree this topic almost warrants it's own post though...

Black Thirteen, maybe I have just missed where people have said you shouldn't look at or be attracted to women. Honestly, I would be surprised if that sentiment gets much ground here at all, as it is obviously absurd and, frankly, provides for far less productive derailment than your interesting immutable characteristics remark.

And maybe this is just a semantic problem, too, because there is a difference between noticing someone/glancing at someone whom you find attractive, and allowing your gaze to linger for longer than is appropriate. Virtually every human being with a modicum of basic healthy socialization has at least a vague sense of where this line is, and the ability to stay on the correct side of it.

Tecolata, sorry, meant to respond to you sooner: if your state government is being unhelpful I would take it up to the federal level and look into filing a suit under HIPAA (which Kaiser is subject to, since it operates in more than one state). Here's a site that might give you some useful information.

Also, I would be *REALLY* surprised if that "but not limited to" clause is actually allowed to be interpreted to mean anything under the sun. Unless you live in the reddest of red states (and even then, again, there are HIPAA regulations to contend with), there will always, ALWAYS be an analysis of some sort of the reasonability and fairness of your contract. For any contract, any state has to be sure that you actually agreed to what's in question -- like, if you signed this thinking (say), okay, maybe they'll share this info with advertisers, I don't love that, but I'm willing to do it for health insurance, that doesn't give Kaiser carte blanche to run a CNN special about the intimate details of your medical care, just because the contract doesn't explicitly prohibit them from doing it. I think even Texas would bitch-slap them for that. In that case, it could not be said that this interpretation of the contract met your reasonable expectations in entering into it. Also, as for the state law issue -- check your contract again to see which state's law governs. Usually contracts have a provision saying that disputes will be decided under the law of state X. Who knows, that state might have more favorable pro-patient laws than your home state.

Part of this is also going to depend on how extensive the disclosure was. But if they went and, say, told your employer about the operation, I am pretty sure that's outside the reasonable confines of the contract's clear meaning and intent. Yes, corporations are powerful and unfortunately have a lot of ways to trample on the little guy, but there are SOME rules that protect us, and anyone who tells you Kaiser can do whatever the hell it wants because of four little words in the contract could stand to retake a law school class or two.

This is a really attenuated analysis, but hopefully this could help you a little? Whatever you decide to do, best of luck, and you certainly have my admiration for the incredible experiences you've already endured and the energy you've already displayed in fighting back.

Black Thirteen, maybe I have just missed where people have said you shouldn't look at or be attracted to women.

Well, just quickly re-skimming, I find these:

If they feel the need to look, I feel the need to embarrass them.

Or, better than any anatomy book, stop being a pervert. I know it's hard to believe, but it doesn't take much to resist the urge to look.

The only difference between discreetly checking someone out and being obvious about it is the lie inherent in being subtle. Objectifying a woman in any circumstance for any reason is a crime.

I have always hated guys looking at me.

I'm sure there are a few others, but it just seemed there was a strong current of people saying men shouldn't be looking at all.

That's one of the few situations where it's hard not to. When you see someone you find attractive, you're going to look at them. Humans are inherently visual in our initial attractions. Not just men, either.

I'm sure if there was actually a woman somewhere that found me attractive, she'd probably look at me.

And maybe this is just a semantic problem, too, because there is a difference between noticing someone/glancing at someone whom you find attractive, and allowing your gaze to linger for longer than is appropriate. Virtually every human being with a modicum of basic healthy socialization has at least a vague sense of where this line is, and the ability to stay on the correct side of it.

A couple comments implied or stated that there was no difference, really.

A couple comments implied or stated that there was no difference, really.

See, I think this may just be an instance of taking things the wrong way. The comments you quoted seem to me to be open to more than one interpretation. The thing is, you are suggesting that these commenters were insisting on a standard of behavior that is all but impossible. I think you are just misreading what they are saying in an effort to find a reason to be offended/disagree/whatever.

And I can just about promise you there is a woman somewhere who is attracted to you. Perhaps you simply haven't noticed her? By which I don't mean to suggest AT ALL that you have some obligation to be attracted to people to whom you are not attracted. No one does, and everyone has a right to turn down advances in which they are not interested. In fact, I think that scenario demonstrates pretty well the problem a lot of commenters are getting at, namely: not all attraction is wanted or desired, and CERTAINLY not all manifestations of attraction are wanted, desired, or appropriate. No one has the right to insist someone else not be attracted to him or her. But we do have the right to insist that attraction not be taken to an anti-social or rude extreme.

When someone says something like "I have always hated guys looking at me" in the context of a thread like this, she doesn't mean all men should poke their eyes out, and it's patently unreasonable to take her comments that way (and if someone DOES say something like that, either that person is a troll and should be ignored, or s/he is speaking out of a place of frustration and doesn't mean it anymore than Alec Baldwin means it when he says he's going to move to Cuba). All she means is that unwanted male attention makes her uncomfortable. Imagine if a girl you found completely unattractive, gross even, was constantly staring at you, made a point of hanging around you, acted clingy, wouldn't leave you alone when you were trying to enjoy a meal with your friends, whatever. Wouldn't you be pretty fucking annoyed??

Let me give you a hypothetical scenario that might help you understand where people are coming from:

You're road-tripping with a male friend and the two of you stop at a roadside diner -- unbeknownst to you, you've stumbled upon a rough part of the local town, which just so happens to be 95% gay men. Or. Something. There's some grody looking 50-something guy with some weird kind of giant zit-looking thing on his lip and a shirt that looks like it hasn't seen a washer in a decade, sitting across the room. While eating your meal, you glance over and notice that he's staring at you while slowly open-mouth chewing his food (which looks almost as gross as he does). A little bit of drool dribbles down his chin and he sees that you've noticed him (with a look of pure horror and disgust on your face), so he gives you a toothy, creepy smile and winks at you, after which he maneuvers his lips into a puckering position and makes a few kissing sounds before going back to his food, while he continues to stare and chew and moves his free hand closer to his crotch.

Now imagine you are trying to relay this story to someone else but are too completely disgusted and grossed out to go into all the detail into which I've just gone (or you just plain don't feel like putting in that kind of effort) and you tell you friends, "God, he was just... looking at me all creepy! I seriously wanted to punch him in the throat!" Then one of your friends interjects "so what? You're saying men shouldn't be allowed to look at you? What's your fucking problem?"

Personally, I would be pretty annoyed with that "friend." But you're free to try to put yourself, mentally, in this situation and think that your friend's reaction is entirely reasonable, in which case, well, I guess there is not much else I can say on this point.

To Law Fairy and Black Thirteen:

After my subjective reading of the last 144 post, I would have I agree more with Black Thirteen regarding the interpretation the statements he quoted.

Until the quoted clarify their post... at least.

Maybe one reason I agree with Black Thirteen is becuase of some of the more extreme feminist philosphies I have heard, such as any sex with a male occurs within the context of patriarchy and male prvilidge, there for is never non-coerce, so the only sex that is not assaultive is between two women.

Given that some people may believe the above it is not that far of a streak that /any/ glance at a person could be viewed as offenses.

I think you are just misreading what they are saying in an effort to find a reason to be offended/disagree/whatever.

How else can you take one that says that a discreet glance, and an obvious one are the same thing. Or that looking should be punished?

And I can just about promise you there is a woman somewhere who is attracted to you. Perhaps you simply haven't noticed her?

I wouldn't want you making a promise you couldn't keep. Unless women are a lot more stealthy than men, and have figured out a way to check someone out without even turning in their direction. ;)

By which I don't mean to suggest AT ALL that you have some obligation to be attracted to people to whom you are not attracted.

Worry not, it wasn't taken as such.

No one has the right to insist someone else not be attracted to him or her. But we do have the right to insist that attraction not be taken to an anti-social or rude extreme.

Right, that's kind of what I was getting at. If someone looks in your direction, because they find you attractive, and doesn't do anything inappropriate, what's the harm? Does it hurt you to realize that other people look at you and find you attractive?

I think a lot of this, is definitely a situation where standing in the other shoes would help. Getting an appreciative glance would probably improve my day. It'd be nice to think a woman I pass in my daily routines is attracted to me.

A lot of men think like that. (I'm not excusing the harassers, or those that make inappropriate comments, mind. Just the ones that take a look, and move on.) We assume that since we would take a look as a compliment, that everyone else would.

I know, it's a stupid way to go about things, but it's something a lot of people are guilty of doing, men and women alike.

Imagine if a girl you found completely unattractive, gross even, was constantly staring at you, made a point of hanging around you, acted clingy, wouldn't leave you alone when you were trying to enjoy a meal with your friends, whatever. Wouldn't you be pretty fucking annoyed??

Well, I think that's a lot more extreme than someone simply looking at another.

But you're free to try to put yourself, mentally, in this situation and think that your friend's reaction is entirely reasonable, in which case, well, I guess there is not much else I can say on this point.

See, though, you're taking something, and trying to make it the most disgusting, lecherous human imaginable, leering at someone else.

A lot of these situations could be someone innocently glancing over.

It seems the well-intentioned men get easily lumped in with the dirtbags. A man shyly coming up and trying to start a conversation is being treated the same as one that says "Hey, great rack!".

(But the dynamics and stupidity of society, and which gender is more inclined to approach the other is a whooooole other topic, that really would deserve it's own entire article, so I won't touch it today.)

Though, like I said, in general, it's really hard for me to fully understand it, because nobody looks at me. Be it a quick "Ooh" glance, or a lingering Looney Tunes-style look. (By this, I mean, imagine two Looney Tunes characters, on a desert island, and one looks at the other, and gradually sees them as a food item.)

See, though, you're taking something, and trying to make it the most disgusting, lecherous human imaginable, leering at someone else.

A lot of these situations could be someone innocently glancing over.

Sigh... see, again, I think we agree in substance but you're just deciding to take umbrage at a few comments that you may or may not be subjectively interpreting in the sense the author(s) intended.

And I do think you make a valid point that your subjective view comes from a very different place as that of the subjective view of a women who has been harassed and stared at enough to in fact *resent* unwanted attention. I HAVE been in your situation -- as a late bloomer and something of an ugly duckling, when I was much, much younger I thought (erroneously, upon reflection) that no one was attracted to me and would have loved to get the kind of attention so many girls seemed to dislike. I remember the first time I got a catcall -- I didn't even realize what it was, and turned to thank the guy for the "compliment," before my cousin (who is about 6 feet tall, trim, and gorgeous with perfect Mediterranean features, and has put up with this bullshit since about age 12) grabbed my arm and pulled me along so we didn't get caught in a potentially BAD situation. Back then, I likely would have felt as you do -- not understanding why people found excessive looking so offensive. Problem is, back then, I also identified this (WRONGLY) with legitimate physical attraction, rather than recognizing it for what it is: an assertion of ownership over another's physical appearance.

Also, as to talking about disgusting leches, who is to say that it's invalid to consider all unwanted rude attention to be as undesirable as attention from a lech? To you it seems extreme but, again, you haven't had to put up with a decade or more of ACTUAL harassment such that your hackles are easily raised (and understandably so).

As for well-intentioned men getting lumped in with dirtbags, you're right and you're wrong. First off, you're right in that, yeah, sometimes women will ignore perfectly decent guys, just because we HAVE been unfairly harassed so many times that we've found the most cost-effective solution is simply to ignore EVERYONE in certain situations. It's an imperfect solution, but pretty much everything is, and while I honestly do feel for you and your genuine compatriots (as well as for those of us who unfortunately miss out on meeting great guys as a result), at the same time I can't exactly disparage this approach because, you know what, I am a busy person and, I'm sorry, I simply do not have the time to get to know each and every guy who approaches me to find out if he actually is worth getting to know. And I think if you think about it, you'll realize that everyone more or less takes a similar approach to life in any arena (relationships, friendships, career, whatever).

You're wrong insofar as you're associating with the dirtbags being described here, and perhaps you've even answered for yourself why you're doing that -- because you're worried you'll be lumped in with the bad guys. I understand that concern and empathize with it. But at the same time, you can't presume to know that the women here aren't using shorthand/frustration to say what I am pretty sure most everyone here is saying, and assume that because YOU take it differently, therefore it was meant differently.

Steven, your reasoning is... off, to say the least. You're committing a logical fallacy (it's been a looooong time since college logic... I think that's called the association fallacy? Or something similar?) in assuming that because some people who believe X also believe Y, and some people who believe Y also believe Z, therefore it is probable that some people who believe X believe Z. That's not true. It's *possible*, but hardly probable. It is no more probable than improbable, logically speaking.

Again, you're taking these comments to an absurd extreme. Please explain to me how it is reasonable to assume that any of these women are saying that men should not, under any circumstances whatsoever, EVER, look at any woman. I mean, how on earth can anyone POSSIBLY be saying that, without basically suggesting that we wipe men off the face of the earth (or at least put them all somewhere they can't see us)? Are you accusing these women of advocating genocide?? That's a hefty accusation that really ought to be backed up by more than your subjective offense at the reality of their experiences.

Sigh... see, again, I think we agree in substance but you're just deciding to take umbrage at a few comments that you may or may not be subjectively interpreting in the sense the author(s) intended.

Seems like we do. I'm just sort of looking at it like, you're taking situations that are extreme, and comparing it to ones that might not be nearly as such.

Problem is, back then, I also identified this (WRONGLY) with legitimate physical attraction, rather than recognizing it for what it is: an assertion of ownership over another's physical appearance.

Well, like I said, I don't mean catcalls, harassment, etcetera. I mean simple things like, an appreciative glance, or a "Um, um, hi, I'm so and so..." approach attempt.

Also, as to talking about disgusting leches, who is to say that it's invalid to consider all unwanted rude attention to be as undesirable as attention from a lech?

Well, that's why I bring up well-intentioned people.

Like, if a male just gently tries to ask your name, or say hello, immediately attacking him, be it verbally or physically, probably not the best way to go about it.

You have to think, on the other end of that request, may very well be a terribly self-conscious, insecure person, and now, they're going to think even less of themselves for it.

Admittedly, that's a bit extreme, and the guy would most likely just move on, and feel stupid for a while, but you get my point.

and while I honestly do feel for you and your genuine compatriots (as well as for those of us who unfortunately miss out on meeting great guys as a result)

I've long ago stopped approaching women, so, don't feel too bad for me. (I've a running bet with friends, I'll go on a date when a woman approaches ME. :P)

and assume that because YOU take it differently, therefore it was meant differently.

Well, it's the internet, and intent is a lot harder to define than in verbal speech, let alone when it's people who don't know them personally.

I only know what they say, and can only take what they say how they say it. Like the commenter who relates all looking as bad.

It's not so much I'm worried about being classed with the dirtbags, because I'm never in a position where someone could assume I was doing those things. I don't even say hello, let alone comment on their physique, or ask for a phone number, etcetera.

If I look, it's a glance done from so far away, that I wouldn't even be noticed doing it.

"Like, if a male just gently tries to ask your name, or say hello, immediately attacking him, be it verbally or physically, probably not the best way to go about it."

Well, I seriously doubt any of the women here have attacked a guy who just gently asked them there name -so you're setting up a straw argument.

"(I've a running bet with friends, I'll go on a date when a woman approaches ME. :P)"

Do you have female friends? If so, have any of them ever expressed interest in being with you? If the answer to either of those questions is no, I'll hazard that that has more to do with who you are, than anything to do with the way women are in general...

Well, I seriously doubt any of the women here have attacked a guy who just gently asked them there name -so you're setting up a straw argument.

I'm aware, I'm simply saying that when you lump "bad" with "good", this is the sort of thing that results. It's why a lot of men are lately afraid to approach women they're interested in.

(Hell, it's partially why *I* don't do it.)

Do you have female friends? If so, have any of them ever expressed interest in being with you? If the answer to either of those questions is no, I'll hazard that that has more to do with who you are, than anything to do with the way women are in general...

I only have one male friend. Though, if you ask him (he's gay), he teases and says that all my friends are female.

Only one of my female friends ever expressed interest in me in that regard. (She later spent our entire ill-fated relationship sleeping with someone else. Ick.)

The rest of them? Nope. Though, with the way I am with them, it would largely be uncomfortable and weird. They're so close to me they're like family. My best friend is a better sister to me than my blood sister.

Thus, why I have the bet. I've never had a random woman approach me and express interest, ask for a phone number, a date, or just to hit on me or tell me she thinks I'm "hot".

(The last bet I had on my love life netted me the entire series of Kung Fu on DVD, so, I don't mind winning these bets. :D)

I still don't object to this debate, I think it's great. But at the same time I think that someone probably should write a post about physical and mental attractions, I think it's a topic worth discussing, and right now it seems the only people who know that this line of commentary has turned to that topic is me, black thirteen, law fairy and ninapendamaishi.

I was wearing a D cup at 14. You can't imagine the shit I've taken from strangers, teachers, vice principals, friends' fathers, men working in retail clothing stores, co-workers, bosses, fellow students, etc. In high school I started wearing men's XL shirts to cover up (I was 5'2" and 97 pounds) My sophmore year of college something snapped and I started wearing clothes in the right size, taking an enormous chance that I would be the target of leering or worse. I actuallly had a college boyfriend who told me my boobs looked like "big, nasty udders." After I got rid of him I was still labeled a slut because of my chest size and still am to some degree by strangers, even at 37.

Someone may jump on me for this, but now when I'm in public and a man makes a passing comment about my chest, I yell loud enough to humiliate the guy and say 'What the fuck did you say to me ?" They'e usually speehless, but I always add a "Do you want me to punch you in your fucking throat?" It works.

Finally, someone said it!
I've been DD since I was 16. End of High School was a mess. A huge mess.
The mean comments on the street (even when I wear shirt buttoned up to my neck!), the disaproving look, the leer from men old enough to be my grandfather, the guy who's talking to your cleavage instead of to you... I've lived it all. And I'm still living it everyday.
What makes me very angry, isn't this. It's other women reactions. It's the way my mom tried to put my prom dress a bit higher, thinking I was showing too much (even too I had the same neckline as my bestfriend; she just had smaller breasts). It's the way they try to shame me, for having this body.
The worst?
Last fall, I was in school, and about to meet the person responsible for my coming internship. In school, I wore V-neck, 'cause they look great on me. Of course, can't wear them at work, or anywhere else. In uni, I give myself a break and wear what I like, no matter what anyone can think. I met the teacher responsible for the internship; she called me back later that week, saying she had to talk to me about something. (Yes, it was a woman.)
She told me how innapropriate my clothes were, how she hoped I wouldn't wear that to meet the people at that place or I wouldn't get it. (And what I wore at this time, was jeans, running shoes, and an long-sleeved shirt - with a v-neckline.) Beside, it wasn't appropriate for school either; wasn't I thinking of the effet it would have on my male teachers?
I was so angry, I tried to tell her I wore perfectly adequate clothing, that she wouldn't said that to other girls with the same clothing but smaller breasts, but I don't think she got my point.
Later, I spoke of this incident with to of my girlfriends. I was so angry! And you know what they said afterward? "Don't worry, you can dress however you like. Its not as if we have that much male teachers anyway!"
Of course, that didn't made me feel any better. But it took me months to understand why!

Black Thirteen, YOU are the one lumping the good with the bad. This post is about the bad. Most comments are about the bad, and how the bad have impacted our lives as women. Then a few men jump in to talk about the good, raising arguments against strawwomen. This post is not *about* being offended by the mere presence of men, or feeling violated when men ask for the time. So why do men always lump those things in with the bad?

Then a few men jump in to talk about the good, raising arguments against strawwomen. This post is not *about* being offended by the mere presence of men, or feeling violated when men ask for the time. So why do men always lump those things in with the bad?

When people say any form of looking is bad, that's pretty much lumping good and bad, really.

Well nobody said anything of the sort, Black Thirteen. Pulling some out-of-context quotes (most of which are from a man of whom we're all a bit suspicious) does not constitute an argument. Almost everyone in this thread has clarified what she means, and it's right there in the original post. The tone of the thread has gotten conversational, so I wouldn't have thought it was necessary to clarify "long, lingering, obviously undressing me with his eyes whilst licking his lips" every time we write the word "looking."

Well nobody said anything of the sort, Black Thirteen. Pulling some out-of-context quotes (most of which are from a man of whom we're all a bit suspicious) does not constitute an argument.

Sure they did. It's not out of context when someone says "If someone feels the need to look, I feel the need to embarrass them", or somesuch.

And, again, if someone isn't making inappropriate comments to you, is it your right to come up to them and verbally assault them?

almost everyone in this thread has clarified what she means

Where?

Black Thirteen, two questions: 1) why is "verbal assault" any worse than visual or mental assault? Seriously. Who gets to decide this? You? Men? Why don't the women who are frequently assaulted get to decide this?

2) Who gets to say what is and isn't "inappropriate"? And who gets to determine what constitutes a "comment"? Comments don't have to involve words.

Black Thirteen, two questions: 1) why is "verbal assault" any worse than visual or mental assault? Seriously. Who gets to decide this? You? Men? Why don't the women who are frequently assaulted get to decide this?

The law, really. There's no such thing as "visual assault". Looking at another person is not a crime. Verbal assault can and often does constitute a crime, however.

2) Who gets to say what is and isn't "inappropriate"? And who gets to determine what constitutes a "comment"? Comments don't have to involve words.

As for inappropriate, the law, again, defines that. If I say hello to you, you wouldn't be able to press charges for harassment. So on and so forth.

Beyond that, it's up to the individual. For instance, if a woman approached me (lol) and said "My goodness, I find you incredibly handsome (double lol), I could say "That's not offensive to me.", however, someone else could take it as such.

If someone just offers a greeting, or politely asks my name, or, after a few minutes of conversation, if I'm seeing someone, generally, there's nothing inappropriate or illegal about that.

A comment does involve words. Looking at someone is not a comment.

Every single definition in the dictionary for comment, involves a remark. A look isn't a comment.

This question just seems to be arguing semantics.

"Also - D and C cups are considered "huge"? Where does it go from there? I wear a 34G, wtf am I?"

A D is huge on me, relative size and all... and that pretty much illustrates what I said earlier about women telling me that I have no idea what it's like to have huge boobs. Which is weird...

I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone. Black Thirteen, forgive me if a tiny fraction of the commenters on this thread made sweeping remarks about "looking" that you chose to focus on to the exclusion of all other points. I do wish they'd come back to clarify what they mean, even though it should be painfully obvious due to the nature of the original post and the stories that have been shared by similarly frustrated women.

And again, you're lumping the good ("My goodness, I find you incredibly handsome.") with the bad (pretty much all the examples of harassment we have given).

The law, really. There's no such thing as "visual assault". Looking at another person is not a crime. Verbal assault can and often does constitute a crime, however.

While I believe you are correct in that I'm not familiar with any cases where someone has been found guilty of assault simply for looking at someone, I think you're oversimplifying. Stalking in some cases may involve little more than following someone around, and no verbal assault whatsoever -- yet stalking is most certainly a crime.

I wouldn't say verbal assault is "often" a crime -- in fact, it is rarely a crime. The vast, vast majority of speech, even extremely offensive speech and speech considered socially inappropriate, is protected by the First Amendment. Now, if I chew someone out and the property owner asks me to leave because they don't want me to disturb the other customers, and I don't leave, I'm not guilty of verbal assault; I'm guilty of trespass. There are some "fighting words" statutes in various places around the country, but these are generally tricky to enforce because, once again, it boils down the the question of what's sufficiently "inappropriate" that it could be considered obscene, which is just about the only sort of speech that the government is allowed to regulate. Obscenity is largely dependent on local community standards, which (cynically speaking) boils down to the judge or jury's subjective feelings about the speech in question, as long as s/he/they is/are not unduly unreasonable about it.

As for inappropriate, the law, again, defines that. If I say hello to you, you wouldn't be able to press charges for harassment. So on and so forth.

Well, like above, unfortunately the law on this is far from black and white. On top of that, context is everything. If you have been stalking me or if I have a TRO against you, then your saying "hello" to me IS illegal.

Bear in mind that the standards you're blithely relying on have been quite helpfully described thusly by THE authority on the law, the US Supreme Court itself: "I know it when I see it."*

*(granted, concurring rather than majority opinion. But, notably, not dissenting).

Not making this up, I'm afraid.

which is just about the only sort of speech that the government is allowed to regulate.

Whoops, I should have said "prohibit," not "regulate." The government can actually regulate speech in a lot of ways as long as the regulation isn't unduly content- or viewpoint-based.

Oh sheesh, okay, one last thing. Hopefully.

Like you say, semantics, but let's be clear about one thing: whether or not you want to call it a "comment," it is absolutely, definitely the case that communication takes place without speech. If I flip you off, it's pretty damn clear what I am saying, even if I'm frakking mute.

And, again, as to looking versus speaking -- here's an example of how you're oversimplifying.

Next year, President Obama delivers a speech to a relatively small group of people. One person in the crowd yells "I hate you, you fucking bastard!! I hope you get AIDS and die!!" Another person is simply staring at Obama intensely, with a bizarre and vaguely threatening look on his face. How do you think the Secret Service (if it's doing its job properly) is going to handle the situation?

I'll venture a guess: they will have the loudmouth removed from the premises and not allowed back in. Case closed. But the creepy staring guy? They're going to keep a damn close eye on him, and the second he moves/does something suspicious/looks up to the rafters/whatever, they're going to haul him away for questioning. Who knows what this guy is up to. I can just about guarantee you that, of the two, they will find the looker far more threatening than the loudmouth.

I think you're oversimplifying. Stalking in some cases may involve little more than following someone around, and no verbal assault whatsoever -- yet stalking is most certainly a crime.

It is, but looking at someone in a public place when you have no history with said person is not stalking. Stalking requires a very specific set of criteria.

I wouldn't say verbal assault is "often" a crime -- in fact, it is rarely a crime.

I mean such things as threats. Like, say, threatening to kick someone in the groin.

And again, you're lumping the good ("My goodness, I find you incredibly handsome.") with the bad (pretty much all the examples of harassment we have given).

And if a male came up to a woman and said she was incredibly gorgeous, I'm generally certain she'd take it just as badly as "nice tits".

Another person is simply staring at Obama intensely, with a bizarre and vaguely threatening look on his face. How do you think the Secret Service (if it's doing its job properly) is going to handle the situation?

They'd grab the vocal one. Doesn't matter how strange a look you have on your face, if you aren't acting in a threatening manner, they can't touch you. If they do, they're getting sued.

Besides, glancing at someone in public that you find attractive isn't exactly being threatening.

This all comes back to why I don't dare so much as speak to women in public. As much as I'd like to have one in my life, I don't need it bad enough to get kicked in the groin, screamed at, or looked at like I'm a crazy rapist for it.

It is, but looking at someone in a public place when you have no history with said person is not stalking. Stalking requires a very specific set of criteria.

You can't be serious. You seriously, seriously don't get that I was drawing an analogy? Do you absolutely have to take everything one billion percent literally? No wonder you're having problems with subtlety.

I WAS NOT SAYING THAT CREEPY STARING IS STALKING. I was pointing out that you are WRONG when you try to draw your ridiculous, silly little black-and-white distinctions between verbal and nonverbal communication.

I mean such things as threats. Like, say, threatening to kick someone in the groin.

Oh I see. So looking can never, ever, in any circumstances, EVER constitute a threat? Well, thank YOU, Detective Chief with 50 years' experience in investigating violent crimes and a Ph.D. in criminal psychology.

By the way, if a woman reasonably believes her safety is in danger and makes it clear to the asshat threatening HER with his mental undressing of her that there will be consequences to fucking with her, that's not a threat. That's self-defense.

And if a male came up to a woman and said she was incredibly gorgeous, I'm generally certain she'd take it just as badly as "nice tits".

Well I am glad to see that, in spite of the fact that you would never EVER give WOMEN enough credit to acknowledge that maybe, just maybe, we might have a fucking clue what we're talking about when we evaluate the totality of the circumstances and decide that a PARTICULAR creep is pretty likely being a creep, YOU are all-knowing enough to tell US how WOMEN IN GENERAL would CERTAINLY respond to a man.

I'm beginning to understand why it is you can't find a girlfriend, which I am not saying to be an asshole, but rather to drive home the point that THE THINGS YOU ARE SAYING ARE SO INCREDIBLY DISRESPECTFUL OF WOMEN AND OUR ABILITY TO ENGAGE IN ANY KIND OF ABSTRACT REASONING, frankly I am surprised you even give us enough credit to acknowledge that we can read.

They'd grab the vocal one.

Yes, and throw him/her out and be done with it. Um, kind of like EXACTLY WHAT I ALREADY SAID.

Doesn't matter how strange a look you have on your face, if you aren't acting in a threatening manner, they can't touch you. If they do, they're getting sued.

JESUS CHRIST ON A MARASCHINO CHERRY-FLAVORED MARTINI.

Are you. Fucking. Serious???

Are you, like, COMPLETELY unfamiliar with how surveillance and threat detection works? Have you, like, not flown on an airplane ANWHERE in the past seven years? Do you NOT READ THE NEWS??

TSA is BLATANTLY RACIST and RELIGIOUSLY DISCRIMINATORY. All the time. Nonstop. Every day. They get sued all the fucking time. Guess what? The plaintiffs lose. Because "security" trumps.

Do you think terrorists waltz into an airport, high-fiving their terrorist buddies, screaming "Allah Akbar!! We're gonna blow this shizzle to hell, bitchez!!! Death to America!!!"???????? Do you think they have to SAY something to be considered a threat? Do you think TSA is more worried about a six-year-old play-acting with a friend and saying "I'm going to hijack your plane! CRSH PCHSSH POW!" or an adult keeping completely silent but with an intense and frightening look on his face???

My point is not that TSA gets it right, 'cause a lot of the time (hell, most of the time) they don't. But you have to acknowledge that buried deep down underneath all that bias and racism is a kernel of truth: it's PROBABLY reasonable to think that, if you're going to find a dangerous person, you're going to have to, you know, LOOK for that person, because chances are he won't come up to you and announce "I'm going to kick you in the groin." He's just going to watch you, wait for his moment, and THEN kick you in the groin when you don't expect it. So how do you know who's a threat and who isn't? You don't. But someone staring at you is a PRETTY GOOD FUCKING TIP THAT HE JUST MIGHT BE DANGEROUS.

So, yeah. If the SECRET FUCKING SERVICE decides that some random dude looks sufficiently menacing that he *just might* pose a threat to the president, they will do WHATEVER THEY BELIEVE IS NECESSARY TO PROTECT THE PRESIDENT. And they will do it WITH IMPUNITY. Good luck with that lawsuit. "But your honor, all I was doing was staring at the president for five minutes straight with a creepy and suspicious look on my face! These Secret Service guys are so uptight! I just wanted to be his new best friend!"

So you know what? If you want to sit there and wallow in misery and whine about how all women are mean nasty bitches who won't give you the time of day, because apparently we are ALL so stupid, by virtue of having vaginas, that we can't tell the difference between a nonthreatening hello and and a potential rapist, then you go right ahead and resent us all and never speak to any woman again, ever, and you go right ahead and tell yourself how much better and smarter you are than ALL of us who actually have experience, and continue to have experience (by virtue of not hiding from the world because clearly the world is out to get us at every turn) from which we learn that - gasp! - not all men out there are benign sweethearts who just want to get to know us better. And while you're at it, PLEASE TAKE YOUR ANTI-WOMAN, ARROGANT, PATRONIZING, RESENTFUL, SELF-PITYING, CONSPIRACIST NONSENSE SOMEWHERE ELSE.

::walks away from wall and stops banging head::

You can't be serious. You seriously, seriously don't get that I was drawing an analogy? Do you absolutely have to take everything one billion percent literally? No wonder you're having problems with subtlety.

I'm just saying, you're making false analogies. An analogy is to take two similar things, not two things that are completely alien to each other.

I was pointing out that you are WRONG when you try to draw your ridiculous, silly little black-and-white distinctions between verbal and nonverbal communication.

And I was pointing out that looking at someone is not a form of communication.

By the way, if a woman reasonably believes her safety is in danger and makes it clear to the asshat threatening HER with his mental undressing of her that there will be consequences to fucking with her, that's not a threat. That's self-defense.

The law states that a reasonable person would feel a direct threat. Assuming that someone who looks in your direction is going to rape or assault you is not a reasonable reaction.

Self defense does not cover "He looked at me, so I pepper sprayed him".

Well I am glad to see that, in spite of the fact that you would never EVER give WOMEN enough credit to acknowledge that maybe, just maybe, we might have a fucking clue what we're talking about when we evaluate the totality of the circumstances and decide that a PARTICULAR creep is pretty likely being a creep, YOU are all-knowing enough to tell US how WOMEN IN GENERAL would CERTAINLY respond to a man.

I'm just going by what is being said here.

I've seen women here and other places repeatedly state they do not want anyone talking to them in public. Never seen one say they wouldn't mind a respectful approach.

I'm beginning to understand why it is you can't find a girlfriend, which I am not saying to be an asshole, but rather to drive home the point that THE THINGS YOU ARE SAYING ARE SO INCREDIBLY DISRESPECTFUL OF WOMEN AND OUR ABILITY TO ENGAGE IN ANY KIND OF ABSTRACT REASONING, frankly I am surprised you even give us enough credit to acknowledge that we can read.

Don't use straw men and ad hominem attacks, please.

I really don't care to have someone put words in my mouth, or assume what I'm thinking without asking me.

ave you, like, not flown on an airplane ANWHERE in the past seven years? Do you NOT READ THE NEWS??

TSA is BLATANTLY RACIST and RELIGIOUSLY DISCRIMINATORY. All the time. Nonstop. Every day. They get sued all the fucking time. Guess what? The plaintiffs lose. Because "security" trumps.

Airlines are a special case, outside of normal security boundaries. Which is why they can force you to remove your shoes and subject your belongings to x-ray scans, which would otherwise be considered "unreasonable search and seizure".

So you know what? If you want to sit there and wallow in misery and whine about how all women are mean nasty bitches who won't give you the time of day, because apparently we are ALL so stupid, by virtue of having vaginas, that we can't tell the difference between a nonthreatening hello and and a potential rapist, then you go right ahead and resent us all and never speak to any woman again, ever, and you go right ahead and tell yourself how much better and smarter you are than ALL of us who actually have experience, and continue to have experience (by virtue of not hiding from the world because clearly the world is out to get us at every turn) from which we learn that - gasp! - not all men out there are benign sweethearts who just want to get to know us better.

And where did I say that? Oh, I didn't. You're putting words in my mouth, and going to extreme conclusions, based on statements that didn't mean that. Which, interestingly enough, is what you were previously accusing me of.

I simply made a point, that based on what people here are saying, that is partially why I wouldn't waste my time approaching some woman I was interested in, because I don't feel like being threatened or having my approach taken as a "threatening advance".

I never said you couldn't tell the difference, but I also don't believe you're all psychic and perfectly able to discern someone's intent.

And while you're at it, PLEASE TAKE YOUR ANTI-WOMAN, ARROGANT, PATRONIZING, RESENTFUL, SELF-PITYING, CONSPIRACIST NONSENSE SOMEWHERE ELSE.

I'd really appreciate it if you stepped back, calmed down, and ceased acting like a shouting, unreasonable maniac. You're attempting to turn a normal, peaceful conversation into some vicious screaming match, and frankly, I'm not going to allow you to provoke me into one. I've not "screamed", or insulted you, or attacked you, and your responses are, frankly, incredibly offensive and rude.

If anyone is acting arrogant here, it would be you. I don't even know where you get off claiming "anti-woman".

All in all, I will refuse to engage in further discourse with you, until you can have a more respectful tone suited to a discussion. I don't engage in screaming matches. I've been polite, and peacefully expressed my views and questions, and you respond with attacks. It's unreasonable.

by virtue of not hiding from the world because clearly the world is out to get us at every turn

To add to this, for your information, I do not "hide from the world" by not going out of my way to hit on/flirt with women.

I'm sure you might think that anyone who dares to not do that is "missing out" or "avoiding the world", but, they aren't. One can do everything they wish "in the world", and not go around flirting with people, amazingly enough.

If all you're going to do is insult me, do it with valid things, please.