The other day I had this conversation via good ol' Myspace with my cousin. He's about my age and though it doesn't seem from this conversation, also very liberal.
Him- Feminism is a lie.
It's not equality, it's fascism!
Me- What kind of feminists are you talking to?!?
Him- Ok.
I'll give you three reasons feminism is crap:
Here is the thing about women getting paid less on average. If 100 male chemical engineers that worked for fortune 500 companies were compared to 100 female chemical engineers that worked for fortune 500 companies, their pay would probably be the same, if not very close. If it were not, then sexual discrimination would probably be a good candidate as to why it's not. The reason why women get paid less than men on average is because women and men simply prefer different occupations, and different lifestyles. If a woman decides to have a child, chances are that she would end up taking more time off from work to take care of her child than would a guy (if only for child labor alone). It's unfair, but usually the case. Women are usually more family oriented, and nurturing, while men are usually less sensitive and work oriented. All this is of course changing, but it's to be expected that women get paid less than men. If for example, pay for men in the armed forces was compared to pay for women in the armed forces, the men would probably swamp the women in pay comparison simply because of the militariy's past male domination & segregation policies. That does not necessarily imply the same segregation today.
And pornography
Why would anyone do anything that's degrading to themselves? Would you strip down in front of a crowd of people? Probably not. But would you do it if they were paying you $250 per hour? Or if they paid you $1000 per hour? Maybe then. It doesn't seem so degrading when there's a huge incentive for you to do it. So why do some feminist extremists think pornography is degrading to women? Obviously the women in pornography don't think it's degrading, otherwise they wouldn't do it. Their dignity has a price, and they were willing to sell it.They don't represent all women in general, but only the few who chose to go into that business.
Me- Women make 76 cents to every dollar that men make. Is that right? so yeah there is a possiblity that women might take time off for kids, but that doesn't make the wage gap valid.
and about the porn industry, feminists only have issues with pornography in the sense that it usually is based around women pleasing men. that's the degarding part they see in porn.
Him- What feminists are YOU talking to?
Who told you they make 76 cents to every dollar?
Here was my final argument, which got cut off. Feminism is in a lot of ways like fascism. Your average Fascist will disregard any scientific argument unless the conclusion supports his existing belief. The ideology comes first and the Fascist looks for anything to back it up, no matter how trivial, unreliable or discredited. Much like today's feminists and their ideology. Fascists attempt to rationalize their beliefs and portray them as truth by twisting the facts. A fascist might, for example, cast blame for unemployment and work discontent on immigrants "stealing" their jobs. Feminists similarly cast blame for women's lower average pay onto another party (men). Both feminists and fascists are quick to cast blame on someone else for anything that goes wrong in their lives. Most feminists seem to conform to feminist stereotypes. I can usually pick out a feminist in a croud of women. She'll usually have short hair, regular pants, a regular shirt, and an unbathed look; she'll look very much like a stereotypical guy. I think why a feminist might appear like this is to make a statement that "if men can do it and be accepted, then women should be able to". How bold, to go around and look like a stereotypical guy as opposed to a stereotypical girl. Who cares? Either way, you're an ass for thinking anybody cares about the statement you're making. If you're trying to prove a point to the average guy that's only concerned with women as sex objects, you're wasting your time. A guy that's concerned with women as sex objects is going to be concerned with women as sex objects regardless of how you look. Not every woman will share feminist ideals, so a possible argument that "if all women did it, then guys would have to respect us" isn't very realistic. If you really want to make a point, surgically remove your breasts.
ME- The wage gap is widely known and true. What, do you think I make this stuff up?
I am a feminist and I promise you, not a fascist.Your logic isnt making much sense. I don't blame men for every problem that women face. The culprit is society in general, which includes both men AND women. we need to change the culture to right these wrongs and make equality for all.
and by the way I don't seem to fit your description of a 'feminist stereotype.' unbathed...what? I don't need to dress a certain way to make a statement. or remove my boobs for that matter.
Him- Feminism serves as nothing more than a wedge to further seperate the sexes, segregating men and women into cultures that wouldn't otherwise exist. All it does is pull us apart.Nothing is wrong with thinking men and women should be equal, but feminism is a joke.
ME- Separating the sexes is far far from our goals. Feminists aren't a bunch of man haters and female supremacists. We don't want to dominate over men. All we want is equality.
Also you'd be interested to know that there are tons of feminist men. Being a feminist doesn't mean you have to be a woman.
Thoughts?


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Whoo, here comes a mega comment.
"Women are usually more family oriented, and nurturing, while men are usually less sensitive and work oriented."
Oh hello, biological determinism. Attitudes like that are EXACTLY why women are making 76 cents to the dollar. Just be being a woman, we're viewed as a liability because maybe, JUST MAYBE, we'll have children someday and leave the job. Women can't stop being the ones to bear children, that's our lot, unfortunately. And even the ones that DON'T have children still suffer from being passed over for raises, ect. If your cousin wants equality as he claims, he has to understand that it's the workplace that needs to change, not women. There was a big study recently that actually controlled for the very factors your cousin refers to: women in the VERY SAME JOB being paid significantly less. I'm searching frantically for it, I'll post it here as soon as I find it. (Can someone help me out? I probably saw it here or at Feministe) I did find this interesting article that suggests the only way women will make nearly the same pay is when women reach the upper ranks.
http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/2006/08/15/wage_gap/
Has it occurred to your cousin that perhaps traits like "nurturing" and "sensitive" could be more of a result of social factors than biological? That these traits are reinforced in us by society constantly? I mean, does he think women are just BORN wanting to wear pink and skirts?
"She'll usually have short hair, regular pants, a regular shirt, and an unbathed look; she'll look very much like a stereotypical guy."
"How bold, to go around and look like a stereotypical guy as opposed to a stereotypical girl. Who cares?" (You do, apparently)
"If you really want to make a point, surgically remove your breasts" (?!)
Oh, okay. Stereotypes aside, he's being horribly inconsistent. Not dressing like your gender is cliche, but getting surgery to look more like a man is a REAL statement? Please. Feminists are not trying to be men. Wanting to be treated equally and enjoy the same privileges as another gender does not mean they want to BE that gender. Some feminists dress more like the stereotypical man because they want to challenge the idea of what a woman is. With the visual identifiers gone, what makes that woman a woman? Blurring the gender lines is a first step to seeing women as more than their sex. They're people first, women second.
I really want to take apart your cousin's argument point by point, but since he's already convinced feminists don't bathe, among other things, I think the first thing he needs is to understand what it is that he's attacking.
Ask him to define feminism.
Now define fascism.
Move from there. Forcing him to clarify his position will make it easier for you to show him what feminism really is and how he's been misled.
He's obviously just regurgitating things that he's heard around. It's just like when people shout political things that they hear on Crossfire (dems and reps both, no one's immune).
Tell him to, uh, read or something.
His logic is also very inconsistent. I took a basic logic class and I could still pick it apart.
Ok, so the most obvious one. Women blame men for their problems, because we are fascist and we need to find the "other" to blame, yet we (feminists) want to be like them? That don't make no sense!
The Nazis didn't blame the Jews for their problems and then go around dressed like Woody Allen and eating latkes. The minute men don't sit at the Arizona border eating tacos and listening to cumbia. Your cousin is either mentally challenged (not to insult your gene pool) or not paying attention to his own argument.
I think that just gave me an ulcer
This, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls everywhere, is why stupid ought to be painful.
I think kam meant "Behind the Pay Gap," a research report released by the American Association of University Women (AAUW) in 2007. Here is a summary of the findings:
The report found that "just one year out of college, women working full time already earn less than their male colleagues, EVEN WHEN THEY WORK IN THE SAME FIELD..... one year after college graduation, women earn only 80 percent of what their male counterparts earn. Ten years after graduation, women fall further behind, earning only 69 percent of what men earn. EVEN AFTER CONTROLLING FOR HOURS, OCCUPATION, PARENTHOOD, AND OTHER FACTORS KNOWN TO AFFECT EARNINGS, THE RESEARCH INDICATES THAT ONE-QUARTER OF THE PAY GAP REMAINS AND IS LIKELY DUE TO SEX DISCRIMINATION. OVER TIME, THE UNEXPLAINED PORTION OF THE PAY GAP GROWS.
The research also shows that ten years after graduation, college-educated men working full time have more authority in the workplace than do their female counterparts. Men are more likely to be involved in hiring and firing, supervising others, and setting pay.
"By looking at earnings just one year out of college, you have as level a playing field as possible," said AAUW Director of Research Catherine Hill. "These employees don’t have a lot of experience and, for the most part, don’t have care-giving obligations, so you’d expect there to be very little difference in the wages of men and women. But surprisingly, and unfortunately, we find that women already earn less — EVEN WHEN THEY HAVE THE SAME MAJOR AND OCCUPATION AS THEIR MALE COUNTERPARTS."
The AAUW research also shows that this pay gap exists despite the fact that women outperform men in school – earning slightly higher GPAs than men in every college major, including science and mathematics.
"The persistence of the pay gap among young, college-educated, full-time workers suggests that educational achievement alone will not close the pay gap," Hill said. "WE NEED TO MAKE WORKPLACES MORE FAMILY-FRIENDLY, REDUCE SEX SEGREGATION IN EDUCATION AND IN THE WORKPLACE, AND COMBAT DISCRIMINATION THAT CONTINUES TO HOLD WOMEN BACK IN THE WORKPLACE."
http://www.aauw.org/about/newsroom//pressreleases/042307_PayGap.cfm
http://www.aauw.org/research/behindPayGap.cfm
(I added the caps for emphasis)
I hate that argument that because women are in porno that means its not degrading that doesn't make any sense. And I think you are blase about the effects of pornography, it eroticizes domination and sadism, its not just that the pleasure is male-centric its that the woman is utterly dehumanized. ATM - Anus to Mouth [when the penis is taken directly from the woman's anus and inserted into her mouth uncleaned] - not only is this degrading but its a health-risk, and pornography also increases rape and other sadistic sexual crimes. And no offense but your cousin sounds like an asshole.
I had a friend like that. He kept calling me a sexist since I kept referring back to sexism. He was a big double talker too. I used the term pig for describing some dude and I was a sexist, but he could say Judge Judy is a hag and that's perfectly acceptable. I don't talk to him any more.
You said he's about "your age." Is your age around twelve, and you're just extraordinarily mature? He's using malformed regurgitated logic, designed to get cookies from older boys or MRAs.
This kind of reasoning is common and and somewhat forgivable in children and early adolescents, since they are still forming opinions and often have yet to be fully exposed to counterpoints. Unfortunately, culture as whole teaches little boys to dismiss female role models as just being too "other," and to look up to and emulate only the men around them. Especially when they're doing that "male bonding" thing that seems to put an inordinate amount of importance on putting women down and reveling in perceived male superiority.
Often as people age and continue their education, they are more exposed to counterpoints, learn to question their basic assumptions, and develop the ability to take multiple sources of information to reach more informed opinions. This is especially true as hetero boys reach sexual maturity, since suddenly they are much more interested in getting girls to like them (thus they have to, at least occasionally, listen to what a girl has to say).
However, if you guys are much older than that, I'm afraid he may have either been too thoroughly brainwashed, or may simply not be that bright (again, not to insult your gene pool).
The logic is flawed, and the points are detestable.
@Zoray - Your second paragraph gives a pretty good basis for this kind of thing. But there may be more to it than that. When I first ran into gender equality issues, I was angry that I was part of the problem simply because of my biology. Nativity combined with lack of knowledge, as well as the louder arguments of some of my female classmates, made me feel like the patsy that someone was pinning a crime on. I got pretty defensive pretty fast, although not to this level.
A few more years and a lot more knowledge did the truck.
@Amnesiac,
I agree, there's much more to it than that. As this is a comment on a blog, not a thesis, I was making a pretty simplified point.
However, I would say that you "perceived" that you were seen as part of the problem based "simply on your biology." Most men are part of of the problem, at least until they do start to question their basic assumptions about women and feminism, based on their societal indoctrination and unquestioned male privilege, not their biology.
@Zoray - You're right about all that. I was trying overly hard to be concise and didn't explain myself well enough.
My problem was that I didn't have time to understand all the ideas in play before someone yelled at me repeatedly about them from a perspective as ill informed as I was.