I agree with you, but it's not just Christianity. This sort of thing happens in nearly every mainstream (and some not so mainstream) religion. I think that anyone who is secular could easily realize this.

I consider myself Catholic. I don't think that the Bible is the literal word of God because it was written by humans and humans are imperfect.

The story of Adam and Eve is one of my favorites because it's about choice. From the beginning, God gave Adam and Eve the right to choose. God put them in the garden of Eden and said, there's the tree of knowledge, I don't think you should eat from it but there it is. Eve said, knowledge? That sounds awesome! I'm going to grab an apple! Adam was a wuss and said, no I don't think that's a good idea and Eve was all, I'm curious, I want to know what that's about, I'm going to dive right in. Eve is our mother and she chose knowledge. If Adam was in charge, we'd all still be in Eden and it'd be boring. Eve was kick-ass and she gave us the gift of choice and it's our responsibility to use it for awesomeness like she did.

I think a lot of people who don't know a whole lot about the Bible think that it's all eye-for-an-eye and such. The New Testament - when Jesus shows up - is when it really gets interesting. The New Testament basically says, hey, remember the Old Testament? That's done-zo. This is the way it is, folks. Remember how it said eye for an eye? Forget that, now we're going to turn the other cheek. If someone asks you for a quarter give him a dollar. I think that's marvelous.

The New Testament says that we should love our enemies, bless those who curse you, pray for those who are mean to you. Treat everyone the way you want to be treated. Judge not lest ye be judged. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. It inspired Martin Luther King, Jr., Gandhi and Tolstoy. The poor will inherit the earth. Those who mourn will be comforted. Those who show mercy to others will receive mercy from God.

I personally don't view God as a male patriarch type figure. I see God as someone who loves me and wants the best for me and wants me to be happy and will always be there for me. God for me is a source of comfort and strength, not judgment. I might screw up but God won't. My father might disown me but God never will. God never fails and God is always with me so of course I love God back.

I also see religion as part of my heritage, culture and tradition. It's so incredible to me to go to church and think that my great grandparents did the same thing when they went to church years and years ago, that wherever my brother and sisters and I are, when we go to church we pray with the same words and sing the same songs. If I ever meet distant relatives living in Europe, chances are that they pray with the same words too. It connects me to my whole family and it is my family.

When I think about being Catholic I also think about what happened when my mother died. Our church was there for us front and center. The ladies from the church sent us food and flowers, helped us plan the service, cried with us, laughed with us and together we celebrated my mother's amazing life.

I also love that my church and my Catholic school teachers always taught me to question things and not to blindly accept anything. I think it made me a better critical thinker. We didn't always agree but at the same time, I feel confident that my God loves me for who I am. Sure, God would like it if I showed up for Mass more often and didn't talk shit but God still loves me. There's this beautiful part of the Bible where someone said that God knows about all of the little sparrows and God knows how many hairs are on your head and God always cares about you and loves you. I just find it inspiring that I can't push God away, that God just has unconditional love for me, even more than my fiancee or my parents. Because God loves me so much I want to make God happy.

Anyway, sorry for the rambly-ness but I hope that helps :)

You should check out Richard Dawkin's God Delusion or Sam Harris's Letter to a Christian Nation (it's short, to the point).

I think it is important to question religion and not to be scared away from learning about the history of religion, agnosticism, and atheism.

I'm not religious, but I'd recommend against Richard Dawkins / Sam Harris / Christopher Hitchens / any of the Famous Atheists out there, since they're basically the fundamentalists of atheism.

"I don't think that the Bible is the literal word of God because it was written by humans and humans are imperfect." I agree with you with this one, I think if god exist, not the one in the bible or religious, because my problem with the idea of God of the people is that people always want to label something they don't understand or are afraid of. So I think if the true God exist out there or inside everyone and everything, I will never fully understand the true God because the idea of a God has been so twisted by human's mind. So I will never see that God out there, because in a way you'll never be completely sure.Maybe that new faith you gain on God might just be your own mind trying to help you through a tough situation and you need that comfort of someone higher(whatever it is)to help you through.And then again it could be that I'm all wrong about this. To me I see it as there is no proof to say a God exist and there is also no way to prove the idea that God does not exist. I think at the very end all what matters in our beiliefs is the fact: if believing in a God makes you happy and has help you through yuor life, then accept it as truth. And if believing in science, yourself, or whatever else makes you understand life and yourself then believe in that.
Thanks for your feedback,and I love and agree with your idea of Eve for choosing knowledge and choice and all.

We can't leave philosophy out of the equation. I'm reading a book called 'Misogyny' by Jack Holland (after hearing about it on this site!) and Holland describes how Aristotle, Plato etc., wrote about how women were 'mutilated males' and 'the male is the ideal all beings aspire to... only if a baby is born male does it live up to its potential'. Freud, too, wrote about how women are substandard to the male, with their vulva and clitoris being the 'mutilated' version of the penis. So it seems to come, at the root, from a deep-seated fear of what women can do and what women are.

I would also agree that those arguing in favour of their being no god because the idea of god has had a bad influence on the planet is illogical. What people have said and written has nothing to do with whether or not there's something 'out there'. But I also do not believe in organised religion in any way.

Oh my god, I've done what I hate and used 'their' for 'there'. I'll never live it down :P

I've been thinking about this issue a lot lately, also. I think the main problem with religion in general and fundamental judeo-christians in particular is a lack of CONTEXT. When you take texts that were written thousands of years ago in a patriarchal society and declare them perfect and infallible, you're setting yourself up for disaster. These texts were written by men, for men. Even my very fundamental christian brother will admit that the bible completely lacks a feminine perspective.

I do think that there are a lot of great truths in holy texts. If people would just look at them in the context of their origins and use some perspective and common sense, religion wouldn't be such a misogynistic mess.

I've read Hitchens and Dawkins. I actually have a book edited by Hitchens next to my bed and have found myself lately interested in Einstein's beliefs on religion. It's hard for me to take Hitchens and Dawkins seriously when one of them (excuse me, I mix them up) argued that parents who bring their children up religiously should be charged with child abuse.

They also argue that religion has caused more problems than good in the world. I agree that religion isn't perfect, religious people aren't perfect and religion's effect on the world hasn't been entirely positive. But I've also seen a lot of the good that religious schools, hospitals, orphanages, food banks, family services and counseling programs have done. Just one small example, few people realize that in the U.S., Catholic Relief Services is the single largest source of refugee resettlement services. In a lot of situations churches step in to solve social problems when government fails.

I recognize but there's no way to prove that there is no God (sorry Dawkins!) because for the most part, it's impossible to prove a negative. I also realize that my own personal beliefs come from someplace unscientific and messy. I just believe that there are so many incredible things out there that have no real explanation, that just are (the periodic table comes to mind) and the only way some of that can make sense to me is that there is a God.

I also feel like I've been very lucky in my life so far and the only good explanation I can come up with for that is that there's someone looking out for me. I realize I might be wrong and there might not be a God. In the meantime, even if there is no God, I still want to live my life in a way that coincides with the parts of the New Testament that I love, namely loving my neighbor as I love myself. Even for those who don't believe in God, I think that's a wonderful way to live.

Wonder_woman, it sounds like you have recently embarked on your anti-spiritual-journey, so to speak!
I disagree with those who warn against Dawkins and Harris. Their books, imperfect as they are, will open your mind in so many ways, and give you some great anti-superstition arguments.
Religion has not accomplished anything "good" in this world that could not have been accomplished without it. If people need the promise of heaven/threat of hell to make them do good things, how good are they really? I'd recommend doing some research on secular humanism, too!

I'd argue that religion has accomplished good that would not have been accomplished without it. My friend's church started a school in Uganda. If her church hadn't started it, it wouldn't be there. Currently it's the only building in the village with flushing toilets. It's very exciting.

I think that the Bible has a lot to offer simply as a work of literature - in fact, one of the most popular classes in the English department at my state school was a class on the Bible as literature. Or as a book of philosophy - turn the other cheek, treat your neighbors as you would want to be treated. Pretty powerful stuff.

PS - This is in the new issue of Bitch: Rethinking the Beginning—Scholar Sarah Forth goes searching for feminist inspiration in the most unlikely of places—the Bible.

Msunderestimated, you have misunderstood me. You are taking what I said too literally.
People can be charitable, hardworking and empathetic without religion. Belief in god is not a requirement for starting schools in Uganda. Volunteerism is possible without god-belief.

And the philosophies found in the bible are not unique to the bible. Most are much older than the bible, in fact.

I agree that belief in God is not a requirement for starting schools in Uganda, volunteerism is possible without believing in God and that people can be charitable, hardworking and empathetic without religion. But a group of people I know who do believe in God went ahead and started a school in Uganda. Without religion, those people might have built a school in Uganda anyway but with religion, they did.

People all over the world do good things every day. Some of them believe in God, some do not. If the people who do good things and believe in God became convinced that God does not exist, I do not know if they would continue to do good things. Personally, I don't care why people do good things. I just hope they continue to do good things.

I do good things from time to time because I feel obligated. I feel like I've been lucky in my life and I want to help out people who aren't as lucky. Some people probably do good things because they think it's the right thing to do. Some people probably do good things because they think that will make God happy. I don't think that any of these reasons are more or less valid than the others.

I don't mind religion. I was raised Catholic, and there are aspects of it that I enjoy and find interesting. HOWEVER, what I do mind is people who are very religious trying to tell me how to think, what to do/wear, what to watch/read, etc.

If you like Jesus, I'm happy for you! Just keep it to yourself--no one wants to have someone in their face pontificating about how their religion is the way to go.

People's relationships with whatever higher power they believe in (or don't) are personal to them and should be private.

Hey Shae, I basically agree with you. Non-religious people shouldn't have to deal with religious people telling them what to do. I also think that in the interests of fairness, religious people shouldn't have to deal with non-religious people telling them what to do. If someone feels called by their god to do something like wear a head scarf and it's not hurting anyone else, I think they should be able to wear it.

Moreover, saying that religious people should just keep religion to themselves is kind of rough. For starters, some people are called in their religions to tell other people about them. Proselytizing is part of the religion. A lot of people don't consider religion something they only do on Sundays. Some religious people actually really love God, like Tom Cruise jumping on a couch kind of love. It's not always something you can contain.

Saying to a religious person "just keep it to yourself" sounds a lot like, look, I know you feminists believe in equal rights but why do you have to tell everyone about feminism all the time? Both religion and feminism are arguably beliefs. Why is it cool to be proud of being a feminist and tell everyone about how awesome feminism is but if it's not acceptable to talk about religion that way?

Have you looked at these sites before wonder woman?

http://www.evilbible.com/
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

You might like them.

I don't personally find the New Testament much better than the Old Testament. The New Testament is very sexist and also pro-slavery. Here are some gems from the NEW Testament.

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." Timothy 2:11-15

"For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." Corinthians 11:8-9

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." Corinthians 11:3

Hey Msunderestimated!

I totally agree with the flip side of it, if you need to wear a head scarf, pray several times a day, whatever you are called to do, I think that should be respected in a society that is supposed to have religious freedom as one of its basic tenets.

You know what my thing is? I really don't mind people talking about their religion. I just hate when people are RUDE and self-righteous about it. I think politeness and respect of others is an important aspect of this. On both sides of the fence.

I have had VERY bad experiences where people have been rude about Proselytizing.

Dolphin Donna,

But you know where those passages came from, right? The ones about women being silent apparently had to do with women yelling accross the church to their husbands (men and women sat separately). Also, they came about because there were so many feisty women in the early church. Some exist in the bible, i.e., Phoebe, who is listed as a deacon (now a role held exclusively by men) and Junia, who was described as a disciple (and whose name was mistranslated as a male name, Junius, for OVER A THOUSAND YEARS because no one wanted to admit that she was a she.) St. Catherine was accused once of preaching, in violation of that passage in Timothy. Her response? She denied that she was "preaching" and defiantly said that she would continue to speak in holy ways.

The same push-pull is also true in Islam, when you look at the haditha (sayings of the Prophet) that were passed on by Mohammad's wife Khadidja, they are practically feminist. Then there are the sexist ones passed on by some of his male followers.

Turning to Judaism, I was told by my gender and Judaism prof. that there is evidence that an important passage in Exodus was edited to downplay the role of Miriam--that a song originally attributed to her in the text was switched over to Moses, and that textual references to her glowing with a holy light (which would mean that she could be of the priestly line) were altered so that she was glowing with leprosy. Why was this done? To exclude women from the priestly line that began with Moses. No joke.

So when you see those textual references, it doesn't mean that there were not some strongly pro-woman elements in the church. One of the most common hymns I remember singing has that other biblical line "gentile or jew, servant or free, woman or man, no more." That is about as anti-sexist and anti-classist as you can get.

Jack Holland's Misogyny is great, too, Nettle Syrup!

Sorry everyone for not responding back so quickly, I have a virus on my computer so from now on I'm using the public library computers.Well it seem religion is always going to spark some good arguments that's the reasons why I posted my opinion in the beginning, because how do you learn the most? from the opposite side of your own beliefs, something you already don't know.

"If the people who do good things and believe in God became convinced that God does not exist, I do not know if they would continue to do good things." I don't if I agree with you here,let's look at why some religious people do good things in the beginning. In my opinion people do good things at time for selfish reasons. If you follow the Bible , like the ten amendments something like that. You might say your doing all these good things for other people and your not killing anyone or hurting anyone, because you truly want to be good. But when your obligated to be good, that means your doing it for a price in return. And that price to some people might mean you go to heaven, you made God happy, or you simple decided to not go hurt that some other person you hate because you have to be good. So even it was a good thing that you did not hurt that person emotionally , physically, etc.. you still wanted it to hurt that person in your mind. See good honest ethics only work when you do good things to another without even thinking about it. Does it make a good person if you did not kill your wife because you were going to pay the price, but in your mind that notion of killing her was always there. Isn't that being hypocrites? So that is one of my problems with some religious people, that they don't want to admit why they are truly doing good things for. If all human with all types of belief and no beliefs would admit that at the end we all have mistakes and we all are hypocrites then I think we would see that we really aren't that different from each other. Look at love for instance; love is a selfish emotion, it is amazing but I can say to myself why do i love that person so much? because he or she is what I want. I think like any philosophy religion has it's good things and it's bad things. I just think that we have been condition since we were little to believe in things other people believe, we've been brought with so many ideas like traditional customs, culture, patriotism, religions, sexism, and the list goes on. That we might not know who we really are and we may never know. But I ask myself does what my family thought me, does what I see on t.v. ,read on books, is that me? or is that just an image with all those things combine together put in me? See we have been condition by a lot of things and that is how we get our beliefs and values. So to make a decision of your own it's always going to be influenced by something, so just make sure that you really want to believe in God or do not want to believe in God for yourself. Not because of your parents or a price you will get.

Just to let you guys know I'm both, wonder woman and sinful rib.

What's up? enough about religious arguments?