I wish I could do that. The only thing my mother ever talks to me about is my appearance, usually my eyebrows. If I don't look just right to her, she accuses me of letting myself go or having no self-esteem. It got to its worst point yet the other day, where she wouldn't let me go out to dinner with the rest of the family unless I "cleaned myself up."

It's really that she's embarrassed to be seen with me. She's said it before. Or even if I go out by myself, she's embarrassed because people know I'm her daughter.

wow, you have a really awesome outlook on this! I haven't shaved my legs in three years but I still occasionally am plagued by self-doubt over it. The last time I wore heels I ended up taking them off to dance and walk and I swore 'never again!' For me it's really a struggle to evaluate these things and make conscious decisions about them, but it's a really rewarding process. I like what you said about how the men in your life never react negatively to those decisions; it's definitely true and I forget about that. In fact, the only people who ever actually give me shit about my hairy legs are my mom and my sister...hmmm...

Great post! Katemoore, I also have a family who's gung-ho on appearance... I always feel like I'm not "trying" hard enough -- except that as I was growing up, it took a serious toll on my self-esteem. Nowadays, I have more of a "fuck-off" mindset, which helps. :-)

Thank you for this. You are inspiring!

I absolutely love this. All it comes down to is personal choice. I don't feel like less of a feminist when I wear makeup and high heels. I don't always wear either, it depends on the day or occasion. Same goes for shaving plucking waxing whatever - sometimes I do it, sometimes I don't. Luckily enough my family is supportive of my appearance, whatever it may be. I don't embarrass them.

Really when it comes down to it, I do these things for myself. If I wear make up, it is to make me feel a bit better about myself (some days I need it) - it's not to appear more attractive to anyone.

I give you an A+ for an EXCELLENT BLOG!!!!!!!!

I am a riot grrl/punker and I've never felt bothered by other women's attitude toward my body. with guys, most guys seem pretty chill about it. yeah, i mean, i've had some questions from curious guys who have never met feminists or punk chicks (hey I'm from the midwest!) and I'd politely answer their questions and explained why, and then they'd be like "oh ok that makes sense."

and yeah I totally agree with you. Isn't it sad that it's the FEMALES who have such a hostile attitude toward me and you?

I'll say it's due to jealousy and low self-esteem ;-)

they wish they can be awesome and confident like you and me. WE ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I feel you on the straight, thin, fine hair. I am exactly the same. I remember when I was little, my mom cut my hair short almost like a boy's because it was easier to take care of (and she thought I looked adorable with it short). Naturally, I detested it. My main reasons were that many people often mistook me as a boy when I was little; a police officer, a scared girl in a bathroom, some kids. It had a really bad effect on my confidence, so now if I go short I have horrible memories about it. But as I got older I realized that short hair made me look older and more mature, and it just fits my face better.
I have short hair now, and while sometimes I wish I could have long hair, it's just not realistic for my hair type. I realize it just doesn't matter.

thanks for this awesome post! unlike katemoore and midniteinda, my immediate family doesn't really care how i look. well, sometimes my mom tell's me i'm dressing odd (when i am!) but i never mind it. neither her nor my sister ever wear/wore make-up, but i really enjoy wearing it sometimes. that being said, even denying certain make-up products can make me feel better. i would where foundation and it always left me feeling gross, sweaty, and afraid to touch my face. why did i feel it was necessary? "because if you're going to wear make-up, you have to wear foundation." that was my best, though not very logical, answer. i wear make-up occasionally because i WANT to, so why not where specific products that i want to where? i don't like products covering my face or lips, which is why i stick to mascara, blush, a bit of eyeshadow (depending), and lip balm. my sister often tells me that i'm "so much better at dressing up then her" which may or may not be true, but i can't help but be jealous of the fact that she can look good without even brushing her hair. as for shaving? underarms, no way no how. i have a skin condition and shaving my armpit seems to irritate it. legs, sometimes, yeah. my hair is very fine and light so it's never evident to other people whether i shave or not (but i am likely to mention it one way or another.) i've had my hair chin-length for most of my life, and only now am i begining to grow it out, solely because long hair is something i've never had before. somedays i either want to dread my hair, or shave it, but for the time being i think i will dye it bright red and leave it.

(i realise i am rambling here, sorry!)

you are right that it's all about personal choice. sometimes i make beauty decisions to adhere to the norm, sometimes to deviate from it, but mostly because i want to look the way I WANT to look, and i love the freedom of self-expression. i am the girl with shoulder-length red hair who wears a bit of make-up nearly everyday, who either loves dressing down and ultr-casual or dressing up (whether in a 'nice' outfit or just an weird, eye-catching one) and wearing excessive amounts of jewellery, who shaves bi-monthly and would never ever wear footwear if it wasn't for the safety concerns of going barefoot in the city (and in the snow.)

I have definitely spent some time without shaving my legs, my husband does not mind, and I prefer the feeling.. However, there is a backlash I find by both males and females who do not understand....

I do shave now during the summer, but not the winter....

I love this post!!
When I hit puberty my mom noticed i was getting pit hair and stuff, and told me I had to start shaving but I never really wanted to much... later on I was trying to fit in and started doing my hair getting blonde highlights and nice haircuts, and plucking my eyebrows and wearing makeup but it was just awkward.

I've been makeup free, hair removal free, even deodorant free (I like smelling like a person :) ) for a couple years now and I definitely think it's for similar reasons to Brown trash punk!, I got into the whole punk/hardcore/riot grrl scene. I found the people in that scene to be a lot less judgmental and patriarchal about appearance. It's very common to not shave or wear makeup and to have short or otherwise crazy hair, dreads, mohawks, shaved right off, WHATEVER.
I haven't even had a pro. haircut in around 6-7 years because I am SO more than through with spending money on anything that's perpetuating a standard of beauty that is based on increasing consumption.
I create my own beauty standards, fuck it!

also the thing about girls being (in general) more critical is def true of mainstream society... most dudes i know really don't care either way, OR they find it attractive, in my experience. Mind you I never hang out with yuppies or anything haha.

nretsneklafm said: "The oddest thing that I've found out through all of these experiences is that I've received almost all of the negative comments from other women. For the most part men (except for a few male friends I have who joke about my hairy legs) have either been neutral or positive about my decisions."

BROWN TRASH PUNK! said: "I've never felt bothered by other women's attitude toward my body. with guys, most guys seem pretty chill about it."

I think you're absolutely right. The truth is that heterosexual men honestly do not care as much about a woman's appearance as heterosexual women seem to think.

Women, on the other hand, are very judgmental and critical.

It seems to me that these two observations, by nretsneklafm and by BROWN TRASH PUNK! really fly in the face of the first line of this blog post: "a lot of my behavior is shaped by heteronormative, patriarchal, societal expectations."

It is NOT men, it is not a patriarchy, demanding that you look a certain way. It's other women. And women are even more critical of men. You think you feel pressure? Try being a guy who decides not to shave! There is significantly more pressure on men to fall in line with the heteronormative, matriarchal, societal expectations than any pressure that you, as a woman, might feel. When you stopped shaving, by your own account, men were supportive but women were not. If I stop shaving, no woman will ever talk to me ever again (an exaggeration, but I hope you see my point).

The fact is, women create the societal pressure that you feel, and I'm glad to see that you've overcome it. Women also create the societal pressure that I feel - because most heterosexual women want a man who fulfills her fantasy of an adolescent boy, with no facial hair. I join with you to fight against this oppressive conspiracy of judgmental women with their unrealistic fantasies.

enave commented at August 9, 2008 1:42 PM: "It is NOT men, it is not a patriarchy, demanding that you look a certain way. It's other women."

What about workplace dress codes? Do you expect me to believe that those only come from women?

Mina said: "What about workplace dress codes?"

oh yes, I'm glad that you brought this up. Many businesses have dress codes that are incredibly sexist against men, in that they take the form, "women may do X and/or Y, but men are restricted to X only" (for example, X might be pants and Y might be a skirt).

What's even more amazing is that the courts uphold this kind of blatant sexism! In Harper v. Blockbuster Entertainment Corp. for example, the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals found that, basically, civil rights laws just don't apply to men, not where dress codes are concerned - sorry guys. Here's my source: http://www.altlaw.org/v1/cases/1089188

In summary, blockbuster allowed women to have long or short hair, but men were required to have short hair (another case of men may do X but women may do X or Y - more rights for women).

So yes, I agree with you that workplace dress codes are a form of sexist discrimination against men. As to why this sexism exists, I would just refer you back to nretsneklafm and by BROWN TRASH PUNK! (and my own) observations. Men were not critical of their appearance as often as women were. Women tend to be very unforgiving of anyone who steps out of their narrow, sexist (and in the case of men, fantasy) ideals. It is no great stretch to think that Blockbuster is afraid of losing women customers if they do not bow to that pressure. How sad.

Enave,

While I agree that men are under considerable social pressure as well, I think you may have missed my point. I am not a fan of the beauty market in general, but I don't think it's a "matriarchal" conspiracy, and thus have not and will not join in a fight against the matriarchy. Men can choose to not shave their face (quite easily). I know LOTS of men who have facial hair. I'm not saying they aren't expected to groom the facial hair that they grow, but by no means are they expected to shave their facial hair 100%. If they were, you wouldn't find people having annual contests (http://www.worldbeardchampionships.com/) to show off their facial hair and receive rewards and recognition for it. While I choose to cut my hair short instead of growing it long, either way it would be socially unacceptable for me not to trim and groom my hair. I'm not making a judgment on whether that is good or fair, but it's equal across the sexes. We are expected to groom to some extent.

Let's look at the meaning of the word "matriarchy" for a moment. It comes from two Greek roots "mat?r" meaning "mother" and "archein" meaning "to rule". In order for this to be a matriarchal conspiracy of sorts, you are implying that women are ruling, governing, and in charge of either the societal system, the beauty industry, the government, or some other institution that would allow them to have great influence. Sadly to say, this is not the case in the world today. Men are, and have been, the owners and CEOs of most of the major beauty industry companies that sell anything from make-up, to razors, to shampoo. For some reason all the marketing for these products hardly strikes me as oppression from the "matriarchy."

I did make the point that women are PERPETUATING this patriarchal beauty standard. There's a difference between perpetuating something and creating it. (I'll let you look up those definitions for yourself).

And I'll agree with you on one point: Women do seem to care more about physical appearance (when it comes to grooming and such, from my experience.) Do women do this because they are living in some fantasy world where we want to sleep with pseudo-teenagers? I don't think so. Society has ingrained in women that physical appearance and physical attractiveness are the only ways we can wield any power in society. We are taught from a young age to obsess over our appearance. Doesn't it follow that when other women (or men for that matter) break the rules, so to speak, that women, more than men, are the first to criticize? The same goes for men and how they are socialized in our society. They are taught from an early age that they cannot be emotional. They must be tough and "manly." So when men show emotion, who are the first to criticize them? Other men. It has to do with the patriarchal expectations in our society that women are passive, pretty, and emotional, while men are aggressive, strong, and "tough."

If you've ever learned about group interactions, you know that those in your own group are the most likely to enforce the rules (even if they're detrimental. Think about gang initiations and how they treat individuals who leave the group for an extreme example).

I hope this has clarified some of the points I was trying to make. The main point in bringing up women as the main critics of my life-style choice was to point out the problem of perpetuating sexist, patriarchal ideas and practices.

nretsneklafm--

Thanks for this interesting post. I don't shave either, I haven't since high school. I don't wear make up or deodorant and I have never owned high heels.

I have had males be rude to me about not shaving, but my response is always, "You don't shave and you are hairer than me, why should I?" They never know what to say to that. In fact, males have been WAY ruder to me about my appearance than females ever had. In high school guys would say "Ew, her bookbag is touching me" and call me an ugly bitch, etc.

enave:"There is significantly more pressure on men to fall in line with the heteronormative, matriarchal, societal expectations than any pressure that you, as a woman, might feel. When you stopped shaving, by your own account, men were supportive but women were not. If I stop shaving, no woman will ever talk to me ever again (an exaggeration, but I hope you see my point)."

What universe is enave from? That is complete bullshit. A lot of guys (including my fiance) have facial hair and a lot of women and men find it attractive.

Here is a link to a "People Magazine" slide show showing male celebs with beards. The first one is Brad Pitt. His then-wife Jennifer Aniston said of it "I do like the beard. It's soft."

http://www.people.com/people/gallery/0,,1107326,00.html

Who thinks that "People Magazine" would have a similar feature about female celebrities that don't shave (even for a short time)?

*crickets*

Another note on your second post. Yes, there is sexism. Sometimes it favors women; usually it favors men. I'm glad you are finding inequalities that you believe need changing. Write your congressperson and ask for change.

Again, I don't agree that women are at the helm of all this, although they do play a role (just like men). There are plenty of dress codes that require women to wear uncomfortable high heels and pantyhose. As a woman, I would lose my job if I shaved my head. You, as a man, would not. At my senior prom, women (or rather, girls) HAD to wear a dress and men HAD to wear a suit. Do I think that's fair? No. Do I think women are the only ones enforcing this standard? No.

There are so many double standards in our society. It makes me angry, too. Please stop only blaming women for these double standards. Many of them (the double standards) are deeply ingrained in our culture. While our society is patriarchal (i.e. run by men), both men AND women are responsible for changing it.

nretsneklafm,

What a great post. I don't shave, wear make up, heels or deodorant either -- although I do have long hair. I've cut it short before (myself) but now it has grown out. I have friends trim it now and my mom used to when I was young, I've only had a professional haircut two times before. My sister is a herbalist, so she makes me all natural shampoos, lotions, etc. I spend VERY LITTLE on "health and beauty," basically just toothbrush and toothpaste.

enave,

I agree with you that it is sexist that men are fired for having long hair, wearing dresses, etc. That is discrimination and it should stop. But there is no evidence of a "matriarchy" to blame this unfairness on.

Viacom (now CBS) bought Blockbuster Video in 1994, the same year the hair legnth regulation went into effect. CBS/Viacom is headed by Sumner Redstone, a male. Guess what? Men make up the majority of CEOs.

Stanley Marcus (a male) was the district court judge who dismissed these males' complaint. Men also are the majority of district court judges.

Where is there a "matriarchy" in this case that is oppressing these former Blockbuster employees, when it was MEN who made these unfair decisions?

If anything the case reminds me of this Bible verse:

"Doth not even nature herself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering."

1 Corinthians 11:14-15

Do you realize that many Christians embrace the fact that their religion is PATRIARCHAL?

For example:

http://business.gorge.net/zdkf/family/flt-bppb.html

Seems to me that the people that love the patriarchy are the same ones who think having long hair is "shameful" and an offense to God. Maybe you should switch the "m" to a "p" and fight against an enemy that actually exists? Just a thought.

Dolphin Donna commented at August 9, 2008 4:55 PM: "I have had males be rude to me about not shaving, but my response is always, 'You don't shave and you are hairer than me, why should I?' They never know what to say to that. In fact, males have been WAY ruder to me about my appearance than females ever had. In high school guys would say 'Ew, her bookbag is touching me' and call me an ugly bitch, etc."

I had that kind of experience in middle school, and while I got bullied about having facial hair by both boys and girls, the male bullies outnumbered the female ones.

Melissa commented at August 9, 2008 5:02 PM: "As a woman, I would lose my job if I shaved my head."

...and as a woman, I wouldn't get a job if I showed up for an interview without shaving and plucking and putting makeup on my face (it takes all 3 to fully hide the fact that I grew that hair in the first place.

I've had both men and women make nasty comments about my refusal to fit into the usual standard for women. I could barely get dates or make friends in high school because of it. For a long time, I avoided being friends with women, so I often got counted as "one of the boys" and they would say things to me about other women that they wouldn't have said to her face. But part of the reason that I started hanging out with guys so much was because I had found the girls to be too judgmental of my appearance (got sick of them saying, "Oh, you'd look so cute if you'd just let me give you a makeover!"). So I don't think it's one particular gender enforcing it more; both are equally terrible about it. In fact, I would suggest that women hear it more from women because it's considered more acceptable for women to notice and comment on appearance, not because men don't notice or comment at all.

Melissa: "As a woman, I would lose my job if I shaved my head."

You refer to the case of Stacey Fearnall, fired for shaving her head to support a cancer charity. I'll bet you a $500 donation to the charity of your choice that she wins in court, and gets a settlement or her job back. Compare that to those poor blockbuster men, they were laughed out of court.

Melissa: "Please stop only blaming women for these double standards"

ok, you're right, I should moderate my position somewhat. It's just that on this particular issue I feel that women are the main cause because in our society, in western liberal culture, women do the mate choosing. A woman may have long hair or short hair, she may be tall or short, she may choose to shave or not, and (if we assuming she desires male attention) she can still lead a happy and fulfilling life as a heterosexual, having as many partners as she wishes.

On the other hand, if a man is too short, his prospects are *severely* limited. A bald man has substantial trouble finding a date. A man with too much body hair is disgusting.

Clearly this issue affects men more than women. Clearly women are exercising more power and influence here.

Is this really so hard to believe? Can you name any animal other than humans were the males do the selecting? Don't you know that in almost all bird species, the females are plain (read, camouflaged) while the males are garishly colored? Do you think the male peacock actually wants to have that giant blue tail? Of course not! That tail makes it easier for predators to catch him. Why does he have it? He has it because the females like it, and female selective pressure drives evolution. Peahens created peacocks with giant blue tails just as surely (and as easily) as we humans created chihuahuas from wolves.

This is a simple fact of evolution. Why would it be true for every other animal on planet earth, but not true for humans? The very idea is ridiculous!

Consider this, what if all us males got together tonight and decided that we only like women with a certain breast size? I'm sure some women, operating under the cultural delusion that our opinion matters, would go out and get breast implants. But what about a woman who refuses? Do you really, honestly believe that she will have trouble finding a boyfriend (assuming she desires one)? Of course not. But if women got together and decided that they only like men with a full-on Abraham Lincoln beard, every heterosexual man would comply, or else he wouldn't have the chance to pass on his genes.

It really is simple science.

The only physical attribute that really matters in women is weight, and even then an overweight woman has better prospects as a heterosexual than an overweight male, all other factors (such as socioeconomic status) being equal.

And that's what motivated me to create an account here and post, even though I've being reading blog posts for quite a while. I saw someone post, "omfg the patriarcy is keeping me down - but when I violate it, men don't seem to mind, only women do." I couldn't help to point out that maybe you need to reevaluate your starting hypothesis.

Enave,

Again, I don't think you're fully understanding the points that I am trying to make. First, I'd like to mention that I never said "The patriarchy is keeping me down." I wrote about a group of social expectations that I think both men and women should stop perpetuating. You must admit that out society is FILLED with sexist double standards (some of which you have picked up on and pointed out yourself). Where I disagree with you is where you are placing the blame. You said you should moderate your views, but you didn't. Our culture, up until VERY recently, has been androcentric and patriarchal. The vestiges of those beliefs are infused in our current society; ideas like women being more concerned with physical appearance and men having to be tough, for example. Both men AND women perpetuate these ideas.

While, I may not have had MANY men criticize my appearance, SOME have. Other women have dealt with this as well. Yes, I agree, men have societal pressures put on them for appearance as well.

This: "A woman may have long hair or short hair, she may be tall or short, she may choose to shave or not, and (if we assuming she desires male attention) she can still lead a happy and fulfilling life as a heterosexual, having as many partners as she wishes.

On the other hand, if a man is too short, his prospects are *severely* limited. A bald man has substantial trouble finding a date. A man with too much body hair is disgusting." is not true.

I'm sorry that you believe this, but it's a two-way street. Women who are hairy, too tall, overweight, losing their hair, etc have trouble finding dates just as much as men, and may in fact find it harder. All you have to do is look to Hollywood to find not so attractive men with more attractive women, but rarely ever the other way around. We see it in movies, on TV, and in real life! How many fat actors can you name? I can name several. Now how many fat actresses can you name? I can think of only a few and they are almost always cast as "the fat chick" (and with the rise of the fat suit, I'm sure we'll see less of them). What about the "gold-digger" phenomenon. There is really not a male equivalent.

I like that you tried to use science to back up your claims, but I think you need another biology lesson. Humans are HARDLY related to birds. We're both animals. That's it. Birds are closely relate to lizards, not mammals, primates, or humans. You'll find if you look at other primates that their mating rituals are a bit more egalitarian, and the males do not parade around in any fur that make them better prey. If anything polygyny is common among primates (only a few new world monkeys have polyandrous mating systems). This would mean that males are having MANY female mates, while females have one.

While all of this is interesting, it's still not HUMANS. In traditional society, it's the men that are doing the choosing (i.e. asking women on dates), not the other way around. Although women can say no, they are supposed to be too modest to ask men out (I think this is stupid and I don't follow it, but it's tradition).

"Consider this, what if all us males got together tonight and decided that we only like women with a certain breast size? I'm sure some women, operating under the cultural delusion that our opinion matters, would go out and get breast implants." This is interesting, because the number of breast implants continually rises every year. Close to 10 million people get plastic surgery each year. I'm sure you'll be surprised to hear that 88% of these patients are women. If men are under SO much more pressure to look physically appealing, why are more women literally putting their lives at risk to look more attractive? Your arguments just don't add up.

I believe that men do feel pressure to look attractive, but women feel it more so because it is part of women's social expectations to look "pretty," "beautiful," and "sexy." Lots of adds use sex and physical attractiveness to sell things. While they do use men, there a lot more that use women's bodies and physical attractiveness to sell things. The message that women and girls get is that they MUST be physically attractive. I don't quite understand where you think men are so much worse off? I'm not saying things are perfect for men, and I want both men and women to be free from these ridiculous standards, but I just can't agree with you when you put the burden of blame on women. It's not factually true and it's unfair.

You know, I was going to write a reply to enave's comment, but then I felt like a total schmuck actually typing a post explaining that women don't have a monopoly on "mate choosing". Sheesh.

Anyway, count me in as yet another girl who very rarely wears makeup or heels. I sometimes wear them for fun, and I feel fine about that, but I really really hate it that I feel like I won't be taken as seriously at job interviews if I don't wear them.

I do conform more on body hair issues, and in some *ahem* areas that's personal preference, but there's also definitely social pressure at play. I would kill for a practical pair of women's swim trunks (that aren't skin tight) so I don't have to feel self-conscious about not always staying on top of shaving my "bikini-zone" when I go to the gym.

For those of you going without deodorant, you must not sweat as much as I do. When I sweat I mostly just smell of brown sugar, but I get *drenched* so it's antiperspirant for me.

Does anyone else's mother still pressure them to wear pantyhose? Like, even in the summer, when it's boiling hot outside? I had to explain to my mother just last week when I was going to a wedding (at a cottage no less) that nobody does that anymore.

My actions agree with this partially. I like the feeling of shaven legs and armpits (and uh, partially around the ladybits), but I hate the action of doing it. It's so time-consuming if I want to make sure I don't cut myself, I'm too shy to get professionally waxed, always seem to leave chemicals on too long and bleed anyway (!? CREEPY!), etc..

Basically, I'm not a fan of the obligation to do it. I don't like having to soak in a bubble bath for ten minutes so my skin's soft enough to kind of bend with the razor and not get cut, then clean it all up, just because there's a wedding coming up or I'm going to wear a skirt out. I'd really like it if I felt free to shave at my leisure--every few weeks or months I go, "Hmm, I think it's time for a long bath," and do that. And I enjoy it well enough, especially if it's not hot in the house.

In the end, I think it's definitely a problem, but not one I feel so passionately about that I'll deal with the arguments and dirty looks that would stem from refusing to shave.

Other than that, I don't wear makeup, if I can help it. I don't have my own--when I do have some bought for me, it's usually dried out by the time I go to use it again. If I'm going to a wedding or something like that, I'll wear it because I don't want to reflect poorly on my family, who expect girls to wear makeup at "nice" events, but I don't wear it to work, and don't plan on doing so ever, even if I get a full-time job where I'm expected to dress nicely (which I enjoy doing, actually; whenever I'm leaving the house and not working, I get a "why are you all dressed up?" just because I'm putting on what I want to wear). I also don't put any products in my hair (spray, gel, mousse, etc.) because I don't care what it looks like half as much as what it feels like. If it's soft and smooth, I'm OK with it; I don't need it in place or in style.

In the end: Yes, this is how people should be. But I'm not quite as naturalist.

I love your outlook on this; it's amazingly refreshing.

I don't wear make-up either, and I put a lot less effort into my hair than most girls.

The effort I do put in sometimes makes me wonder if I have OCD. I love having things even and in order, so the cowlick over my right eye (a sinusoidal wave in my otherwise straight hair) gets straighted out almost daily, and I neaten up the obvious stray hairs around my eyebrows maybe every other week.

I think its hilarious that people have complimented me on my eyebrows...I think plucking them is rather ridiculous and I actually do worry about it.

Good for you woman! Seriously I hate all that crap, I can especially relate to the eyebrow thing, cause my older sister is a 'yuppie' so to speak and has been trying to pluck my eyebrows for years. We actually get into fights about it, because she does not seem to understand why I would not want to rip my eyebrow hairs out of my face. It really is girls who give us the most crap about it eh. I still shave my legs and armpits (and other areas...tee hee), but I do it for me and only me. Sometimes I don't shave for weeks and you know what, my boyfriend doesn't even care. My sister gives me shit about my 'gross hairy legs'.

Anybody who steps out of the norm is badass.

I sorta snuck around the issue by reinventing myself as sporty. Both men and women seem to be able to wrap their heads around that; and other than remarks about my hair (because this black girl's hair isn't bone straight) and my kinda goofy fashion sense, I've been able to go along pretty unscathed (at least to my face).

As far as unconventional male beauty, I dated a guy with long dreads who would wear a skirt on occasion. Not giving a fuck is a very attractive feature, actually.

Anyway, I think the reason women can be super critical to each other is that we are forced to confront questions about what beauty really means. Deep down a lot of women recognize on some level some of the absurdity and expense that goes along with beautification. It's painful to be reminded of this---and that's just what happens when we are in the presence of nonconformity.

Lastly, It's odd how commenters like enave tend to "androgenize" female sexuality by asserting that supposedly "any" woman can have as many sexual partners as she wishes, as if this is the end-all-be-all. When you take into account the desire for emotional intimacy and stability, men and women on average are on pretty equal footing as far as selecting partners (with notable exceptions being in communities where the available male-to-female ratio is skewed).

And many a heterosexual male enjoys ample opportunity to have as many sexual partners as he likes. It's called prostitution.

Really.

Ugh, sorry for the long reply. I know that nobody likes to read tolstoy.

Melissa: "I don't think you're fully understanding the points that I am trying to make"

I am sincerely trying, and enjoying this conversation.

Melissa: "a group of social expectations that I think both men and women should stop perpetuating."

We agree on this point. It's just that on this one single issue, I happen to believe that women are the primary problem. I'm really responding here to the blog post, in which I saw a contradiction: she celebrated her victory over the patriarchy, then reported that women had criticized her. It's like someone bragging about their bear-proof house, then mentioning that they live at the south pole. My point is that I don't think there were ever any bears (men) except in her imagination.

Melissa: "I'm sorry that you believe this, but it's a two-way street. Women who are hairy, too tall, overweight, losing their hair, etc have trouble finding dates just as much as men"

Yes, I agree* You may or may not know, men are attracted to youth signals. In practically every culture, for example, women are considered beautiful when they have long hair. This is because hair changes as a woman ages, thus long hair is an advertisement of age. All men have an instinct that causes us to notice hair - we aren't even conscious of it. It's really amazing, you could tell how old a woman is given only a photograph of her head from the back. And that's what men key on, though we aren't conscious of it. And everything in our culture that we call beautiful in women, is actually an extension of that male instinct to seek youth. For example, breast implants aren't about making breasts larger, but about making them firm and higher on the chest, as in a young woman. Makeup, clothing styles, everything that women do instinctively is trying to tap (hack, if you will) that male instinct to seek youth.

Women's instinct is to seek good genes. Muscles broadcast that, as does social status.

We all have our instincts. I think it's silly to blame culture for all of this, or to imagine patriarchy daemons in the closet.

*I just want to point out that you mentioned tall women having a hard time getting dates, and I suppose this is true, but it's not because of the youth instinct that I talked about above. It's because of the male ego, plain and simple.

Melissa: "look to Hollywood to find not so attractive men with more attractive women"

I predict that, in general, men with good genes, as evidenced by their high social status or whatever (it's a big topic) will be found along side youthful women. You're right about Hollywood. I don't see this as a problem for my world view.

Melissa: "but rarely ever the other way around"

Indeed. How often have you seen a youthful woman with a male that broadcasts poor immunoocompetence and genetic quality? When you have seen it, you're seeing proof of the "sexy son hypothesis."

Melissa: "Humans are HARDLY related to birds"

We are in the relevant way. We are both sexual. Birds are great because they have a real problem with parasites, and that drives them to evolve extreme sexual displays. It takes a lot of energy for the males of almost any species with substantial sexual dimorphism to grow his extra plumage or his colors or whatever. Any parasite will detract from that, even if only slightly. The females are able to see these differences, and they choose the males with the best resistance. There's a great experiment with cardinals where they observed the mating success of males, then used a computer to determine their exact color, and dissected them, counting parachutes. We would look at all the males and say, "they're red" but the computer could see the some were more red than others, and that correlated perfectly with parasite count. The reason I talk about birds is because it's so easy to understand how female choice drives evolution. Also, I love birds!

In primates, there's often less sexual dimorphism. Female selective pressure drives males to more and more extreme displays - this is why human males are prone to violence. Think of any reality show you've seen. It's amusing to me that they all mirror human female selection strategy. If you keep turning up the heat, keep demanding more and more extreme tests, then invariably any male with any kind of fault shows himself. It's a little bit more difficult to understand than what happens with birds, so I use birds in my examples.

Mellisa: "If anything polygyny is common among primates (only a few new world monkeys have polyandrous mating systems). This would mean that males are having MANY female mates, while females have one. "

My response is already too long, so I wont touch on this unless you're interested. I'm sure you know who Jane Goodall is. I can relate some fascinating observations that she made that refute the notion that females only have one mate. Hint: it's explains why foreign men are so attractive. ;-)

Mellisa: "men are doing the choosing (i.e. asking women on dates)"

I would phrase that, "men are doing the *work* by asking lots of women on dates. Women get to sit back and choose to whom they say yes." The average mating success of a women is above 75%. The average mating success if a male is around 50%. Source: Richard Dawkins, River out of Eden. Come on Mellisa, it's silly to think that men are doing the choosing.

Mellisa: "Lots of adds use sex and physical attractiveness to sell things"

I don't think you want to go there. Ads incredibly sexist against men. Haven't you noticed how often the male is stupid and incompetent in an advertisement and the women has to "fix" him or the situation?

Anyway, sorry for the late reply and the long reply. Nice talking to you.

I just can't help myself:

"Women get to sit back and choose to whom they say yes"

You just went through a spiel on evolutionary biology about how men cue in on health to CHOOSE which women they want to ask out.

Then you say that women "get to sit back" so clearly you are not listening to the conversation about the amount of time, money and energy that women commit to making themselves available for mate/sex selection.

Furthermore, you are conveniently leaving out other factors that influence dating success rates.

These factors include preferences that men have for women to be coy and reserved (yes, men actually prefer women to be picky), the fact that men use two different criteria to choose long-term mates versus short-term mates, and the fact that men are far more likely to be polyamorous---for example, polygyny (1 man for multiple women) is way more common than the reverse.

When men have simultaneous multiple girlfriends, they essentially take up the prime reproductive years of multiple women at a one time. Not very fair to other single men, I would think. Yet a lot of heterosexual males see players like Hugh Hefner as a hero (while the women are seen as bimbo gold diggers).

@enave

I'll keep this short. The point of the post is that PATRIARCHAL beauty standards are being enforced by both men AND women, but in my experience it has been mostly by women. Women did not create these standards, and are taught they are important to being "feminine." On the evolution stuff: I'm not that big of a fan (I believe in evolution, but I think that social conditioning has a bigger influence over our behavior than evolution). I was just pointing out birds were not a great choice, and I looked at all primates, not just chimps (which is what Jane Goodall studied).

I can tell that we just have differing opinions. I'm not blaming men more than women, I'm just pointing out the standards in our PATRIARCHAL society that are leading to these symptoms.

This has been a good argument back and forth and has given me some things to think about.

One final note: Because of the way WordPress works, they show a my username for the posts and my display name for comments, so I am the same person who wrote the post. I'm not sure if that was clear before.

spike the cat commented at August 13, 2008 1:54 PM: "I just can't help myself:

"'Women get to sit back and choose to whom they say yes'

"You just went through a spiel on evolutionary biology about how men cue in on health to CHOOSE which women they want to ask out..."

Exactly. He seems to be pretending that the women he chose to not ask didn't exist in the first place, instead of existing and being ignored by him or considered and rejected by him.

spike the cat commented at August 13, 2008 1:54 PM: "When men have simultaneous multiple girlfriends, they essentially take up the prime reproductive years of multiple women at a one time. Not very fair to other single men, I would think. "

Nitpick: Not very fair to other single men who are interested in the prime reproductive years of a woman. Other single guys exist too, like gay single guys and childfree straight and bi single guys cool with dating a wide age range of women and elderly straight and bi single guys who prefer dating in their own age group and so on. ;)

Great post. I think it's so important for women to find what is comfortable for them in appearance, not only for ourselves but to create space for other women to feel comfortable expressing themselves - whether that be in heels or Doc Martins.