thank you

As a green-card holder, I also can't vote. And if I happen to be on vacation in Canada when they have their elections (they do, right?), then I can't vote there, either.

But, you know, I'm OK with that.

My husband was naturalized this year (after 19 years in the US). He's really excited about voting in his first election at age 33.

My partner was convicted of several felonies (all at the same time) when he was 17, and in the state we live in he can never vote again for the rest of his life. Of course, at 40 he's a totally different person, and he did 13 years back in the day, and none of his crimes were violent or sexual or anything like that, but in many states there's not even a possibility to appeal to have your rights restored. So you end up in prison because you're misplaced and lacking in life skills to begin with, and then when you get out you're even more maladjusted after living in an institution for so long, but you're expected to work hard, pay taxes, and become a responsible member of the community, while at the same time you can never really be a full-fledged member of that community. Now there's some solid reasoning for you. Doesn't this count as taxation without representation? Doesn't this violate one of our founding values as a nation?

OK, I'm done. Thanks for the post!

I'm sorry but I think you need to be a citizen of a country to vote in that country's elections. I think most countries that have elections do it that way. If the problem is that it's not easy enough to become a citizen of a country, that's another issue.

Great post. And wintermute: way to miss the point. Rachel- I had my students debating prisoner and ex-prisoner voting rights this past semester. Most of them didn't even know that you could lose your rights forever. There are civil rights groups fighting for this, I think even the ACLU's on it.

A very interesting post and it did make me think about voting barriers. However...I still think you need to be a citizen of a nation (any nation) to vote. I agree with Holli that the problem arises when there are obstacles to becoming a citizen. But hey, voting is right and privilege, and a good reason to desire citizenship.

Reformed felons, ex-convicts, shouldn't be denied the right to vote in my opinion. If we're going to put any stock in rehabilitation, we cannot permanently disenfranchise those whom we claim to rehabilitate.

As for non-citizens, I'm not quite okay with the extension of voting rights to non-citizen groups in society. However, I think non-citizens who have lived here for some number of years should be able to vote in local elections, and it should be much, much easier to become a citizen.

SociologicalMe: If you're going to call someone out for "missing the point," you should be a bit more specific. It's not proper etiquette to hit and run.

I know I need to be a citizen to vote, but if I become an American I've been told I have to renounce my Canadian citizenship. But I really like living here. On top of that it took my family 6 years to even get green cards which also included thousands of dollars (10,000 aprox in lawyer fees) in order to actually get our green cards. We were here on Visas before that. I was just ranting because it is a REALLY difficult process and I REALLY hope that ALL of you who have the right to vote do so.

To all those who say only citizens should vote: that's a very good point. But the only thing that makes the author a 'non-citizen' is a set of ill-conceived immigration rules. She is not on vacation. She is not a foreigner. She is a part of her community. This community will gladly take her money and benefit from her work, but when time comes to share power it will label her an "alien".

I'm having trouble understanding why you feel entitled to the right to vote in U.S. elections as a non-U.S. citizen. Nowhere in your post do you even mention that you intend to become a citizen, either. So if you want to vote on issues that matter to you, it seems the answer is fairly evident. I'm also not understanding why it's not clear to folks why we need to have voting regulations, or why you seem to think that it is some sort of U.S. conspiracy to oppress you.

j-doug: fair enough.
My understanding of this post was that the original poster was going to extreme lengths to explain to the reader how s/he is a participating member of the U.S., detailing not just political involvement but routine daily activities and an investment in the culture and economy. This would stand in stark contrast to "if I happen to be on vacation in Canada when they have their elections." Stating that one does not vote in elections whilst on vacation is not a fair comparison to being a long-term, heavily invested "alien" who contributes to society but is lacking technical citizenship. Therefore, by making this comparison, I believe that wintermute missed the original poster's central point and, in doing so, trivialized it to an offensive degree.

For me, it's as simple as believing that anyone whose life stands to be directly affected by the election of a politician ought to have a say in who is elected. I know that's naive and idealistic, but it's where I stand, and I'd need some proof that being so open would harm our country before replacing it with something more pragmatic.

SocialogicalMe:

And wintermute: way to miss the point.

Stating that one does not vote in elections whilst on vacation is not a fair comparison to being a long-term, heavily invested "alien" who contributes to society but is lacking technical citizenship. Therefore, by making this comparison, I believe that wintermute missed the original poster's central point and, in doing so, trivialized it to an offensive degree.

In short, I'd be surprised if any attempt to reform voting law so that "involved" resident non-citizens could vote didn't end up barring many of the people it was meant to help, or giving people with no connection to the country whatsoever an easy way to fool the system into thinking they're eligible to vote.

The current system may not be perfect, but it at least has the virtue of simplicity.

Non-citizens cannot vote. Seems reasonable to me.

Robos-
I think many of us would agree that the much of the world was affected by the actions over the last 8 years of this country's current president, but I doubt you'd find many who, like you suggest, think that Iraqis, North Koreans, Mexicans, or Norwegians should have had the right to vote in our election (or us in theirs).

I can think of quite a few reasons why a more "pragmatic" system would be favorable to one open to all those affected.

ania, i totally agree.
i'd be fine with saying only citizens can vote if we had a workable path to citizenship.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure the U.S. offers dual citizenship so I don't see how you'd have to stop being a Canadian citizen in order to become a U.S. citizen...unless Canada doesn't allow that.

I'm also fine with non-citizens not being allowed to vote here. Now, if this post talked more about how they've tried to become a citizen and yet failed to do so because of the extremely diffcult process involved or money or whatever then I completely agree.

I think my post was deleted. which i take great umbrage with, i t was not anti-immigrant at all. I wish to address this in two parts. First my opinion: I sincerely feel that in a presidential election one should be a citizen to vote. i don't think one should need to be naturalized, but i feel that is is silly to allow non citizens (not non natives, but people who do not make the commitment to be come a citizen) to vote. to do otherwise creates a situation where elections could be swayed by people who do not necessarily have a similar stake in a community. this does not mean that i think the path to citizenship is not unnecessarily difficult (because i do), no does it mean that i disapprove of immigrants, undocumented or otherwise (I want nearly open orders. but when i move to Europe to work there for many years and pay my vastly higher costs of living, i do not expect to vote there unless i decide to go in a dual citizenship program. I do however expect to continue to vote here at the home i will likely refuse to give up for the ability to vote in another country, even if it is only for national elections.

My issue-
if my comment was deleted (it was there, it now is not so i doubt an overeager spam filter got it) i would like to know now. its components were simply line one of my position, with the comment that i do not feel a particular sympathy with the poster because i know 17 year olds that do every thing on her list who also cannot vote. i also mentioned that there are ways other than voting, that while not as fulfilling as voting, she could utilize to advance her issues. where is the anti immigration? i really do want to know so that i an address it wither with my self if i am using some unknown privilege, or with the community if the comment was erased b/c it disagreed with the mod. (some thing that the other evidence--other disagreeing posts still in existence--does not seem to support.

"Robos-
I think many of us would agree that the much of the world was affected by the actions over the last 8 years of this country's current president, but I doubt you'd find many who, like you suggest, think that Iraqis, North Koreans, Mexicans, or Norwegians should have had the right to vote in our election (or us in theirs).

I can think of quite a few reasons why a more "pragmatic" system would be favorable to one open to all those affected."

I said directly, by which I meant something like having direct authority over the voter.

I don't know enough about immigration issues, can someone help me?

I know that immigration policy in the US is fucked up. But for obvious reasons the US can't just open its borders to everyone who wants to come in either.

I'm assuming the poster immigrated illegally b/c otherwise she would be at least on track to get citizenship and voting rights. Is this assumption correct?

If it is, then what would be a better way to legislate voting rights? Again, the US just can't let everyone in, so I don't see how voting rights and other benefits of citizenship can be extended to those who did not follow immigration laws. I think citizenship is a pretty standard requirement for voting, am I wrong?

I know reform is needed, but unfortunately am ignorant about what that should look like. Thanks for writing this post, it's beautiful and definitely got me thinking.

on second thought, I shouldn't say I'm "unfortunately" ignorant b/c it's my responsibility to inform myself...

I’m surprised this hasn't entered the discussion yet, but every time you spend $12 on a salad, every time you watch the Colbert Report, you are voting. You are voting with you dollars (which arguably carry more weight: did you see how the last presidential "elections" went?). Each of us needs to remember that we don't just vote in November every 4 years. We vote daily when we choose which coffee to drink, which gas to fill up with (or whether to use gas at all).

I have sympathy for resident aliens who fall under the "no taxation without representation" clause, but I also have to agree with the above commenters that I should not be allowed to vote in France's presidential election, no matter how much I care about its outcome, nor how much I would be affected by it. I’m not a French citizen. So, too, should non-US-citizens be able to vote for the president of the United States.

I have to say, I don't really get this. I lived in the states for high school and college, and I didn't get to vote either. (Granted, I wasn't old enough to vote the first time, but I digress.) Not only did I get to vote, after living there for so long I don't even have a green card to show for it and had to leave, even though I was there legally the whole time. You said you have a green card, so you have the option of becoming a citizen if you want, and which would give you the right to vote, but you don't want to, because you don't want to give up your right vote in Canada. I've never gotten to vote because I've spent my entire life (except for my first year) living outside my country of citizenship.

"Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure the U.S. offers dual citizenship so I don't see how you'd have to stop being a Canadian citizen in order to become a U.S. citizen...unless Canada doesn't allow that."

I don't think so. Everyone I know who has become naturalized in America has had to renounce their original citizenship. There are ways around it (like going back to your original country and saying you lost your passport), but it's pretty difficult to naturalize plus keep your original citizenship. Not saying it's impossible, am saying it's often pretty difficult.

I'm seventeen. I and most of my friends are missing this election by a couple of months. While we may not be contributing to the economy as much as people with full-time jobs, we've got part-time jobs and summer jobs. We consume stuff.

We learn about the government and the issues, and the history of the United States and the world. We're probably better informed than a lot of the electorate.

We're political. We protest. We march for an end to the war, for peace in Darfur, for LGBT rights, for the Jena Six. We wear Obama buttons on our schoolbags and lapels.

This election, like any election, will affect us. It'll affect our student loans, our taxes, our healthcare, our gas prices. For me and other female students, it'll affect our right to control our bodies.

And we can't vote either. We are the future, and we can't vote.

(I agree that immigration law could probably use some reform, but the original poster doesn't even mention whether she is seeking citizenship. Or whether she is a legal alien who pays taxes.)

i honestly see no problem with ANY country having the rule that non-citizens can't vote. i think the real problem is how difficult our government makes it for certain people to get citizenship.
also, it is not the u.s. government that makes you denounce your citizenship from where you were born. that is entirely up to the laws of the country you're originally from. i have a friend from japan who's lived here for 15 years, and has not become a citizen because japan does not allow dual citizen. the u.s. DOES allow dual citizenship, though the federal government's website says they "frown upon it". (at least that was the wording when i read up on becoming an irish citizen about 10 years ago).

I think duel citizenship works in this way:
One can be a duel citizen of the United States and somewhere else if he or she is born here and his/her parents are citizens of another country. One can also be an American-born citizen and leave the United States and become a citizen elsewhere.

But someone who is not born here cannot also be a citizen of another country.

I don't understand why 17 year olds are being brought into the discussion...They can't vote because they are not ADULTS. When you become an adult, you'll have the right to vote. And own a firearm. And own property. And have a credit card. And all the other rights that you are granted when you reach adulthood.

Anytime these kinds of discussions come up, I think of my best friend from Guam. Guam is a U.S. territory. They are governed by the US, follow US laws, can travel to the US and have 'most' of the rights that we citizens have. BUT they can't vote. The Presidential election certainly affects them but they can't do a darn thing about it.

Wow. I have to say that I'm incredibly disappointed. I think of our Feministing community members as some of the most progressive and enlightened people online. I was sad to discover that many of us are not enlightened or progressive when it comes to the issue of immigration.

Citizenship is as much an accident of birth as gender, race, and sexual orientation are. People who live in our country are denied basic rights simply because they weren't born here.

Think about this - most immigrants are poor people of color, with none of the resources rootedwillow has available. If she can't obtain citizenship, what does that mean for the average person who would like to be a citizen of our country? The DESIRE to have U.S. citizenship does not transfer to the ABILITY to obtain it.

I think much of the world needs to re-evaluate their definition of 'citizen'.

I also think that even though one may not WISH to become a citizen of a country, as long as the outcome of a vote should affect them, they should have the right to vote. I would not wish to be a citizen of the U.S. for many reasons, but I know that if I were to live there the laws, taxes and other legal stipulations would affect me and thus, I would feel entitled to the right to vote. I think it would be frustrating for me if I couldn't. It's a huge part of why I'm not willing to move to the U.S., despite various opportunities down there that have opened up/are appealing to me.

Responding to previous posts in reverse order...

1) Shae: If you don't want to live in the US b/c of the lack of voting rights, do you have voting rights in your own country? Would you have voting rights there if you were not a citizen?

2) UWMKatie: This has nothing to do with immigration. The legal immigrants already here simply have to choose to become citizens. The original poster wanted to keep her Canadian citizenship. To many, that sounds like having her cake and eating it too.

3) Guam being a US territory has among other things... no US federal taxes! That's right, the residents of Guam pay no taxes to the US. But I can assure you they get plenty of benefits from being a US territory. It's hard to feel sorry for someone who wants the benefits of voting without paying for the government they're voting. Wasn't the old slogan... "No taxation without representation"? They're not taxed. At least permanent residents in the 50 states have valid complaints of being taxes without voting rights.

Personally, I have proctored numerous US citizenship exams in the late 90s. In 2002, my father become a citizen after living in this country nearly 50 years, about 40 years after my mother received her own US citizenship. I have personally helped at least 10 people, friends and colleagues study for the citizenship exam in the last 10 years and am unaware of the difficulty of attaining citizenship for permanent residents. Can someone more informed please inform me.

I'm kinda surprised that so many people here are against permanent residents voting.

If you're living and working and paying taxes in the US on a permanent visa then I feel you should have the right to vote. Or has the feeling against people being taxed without representation died away somewhat?

It just seems odd that a person can be a parent of American children but can't vote on the government that runs their country.

It seems odd that someone can pay taxes and have no say on how those taxes are spent.

It seems odd that someone can be a member of a community but by accident of birth, as small as a mile away, they have no legal say in what happens in the community.

I've got two citizenships, have lived in a number of countries as both an adult and a child and am married to someone with a different citizenship to me. So my experiences vary greatly from many peoples, and I realize my views stem from those experiences. But I'm still shocked that on a mostly liberal board that so many people are so strongly against hard working people having the right to vote on issues that affect them as much as they affect their neighbor.

I'm with UVMKatie- I'm disappointed. There's a LOT of unexamined privilege going on in the responses to this post. Why are most people assuming that the OP is in the country illegally? And why are we requiring that s/he explain in detail how difficult it is to get citizenship before we're willing to extend any sympathy?

We talk about lots of things on feministing with the emphasis on emotional process, and without detailing an extensive legal process. We can talk about sexism without explaining amendments and titles and acts of congress. In fact, when people require that we explain these things we get understandably pissed and redirect them to Feminism101.

Voting is a feminist issue. A lot of men and women in this country weren't born here, but contribute to our society. A LOT, ok? Our economy wouldn't function without these people, regardless of their official, legal status of citizenship. Women living in the U.S. without full citizenship rights still deal with all of the other issues that we discuss on feministing every day. Let's stop the intellectual border patrolling.

I know my humble opinion is quite simplistic and the issue is complicated, but if you pay taxes in this country, you should be able to vote.

Re: Dual citizenship:

Historically, it's been difficult for immigrants to America to gain dual citizenship, which is another point of difference between the US and the rest of the western world, and dates back to the isolationist days before WWI.

When you gain citizenship, you need to swear an oath that you've renounced any previous citizenships. In the last couple of decades, this has been relaxed so that you can get away with not *actually* renouncing your citizenship, but if the pendulum swings back the other way in the future, having lied on that oath could well be enough to have your citizenship revoked and get you deported.

I'll soon be eligible to apply for citizenship, and I have no desire to give up my current nationality, so I'll have to decide if I want to take the risk. At the moment, I'm leaning towards leaving things as they are, and accepting that I don't have the right to vote.

@rootedwillow

I'm surprised someone told you you would have to renounce your Canadian citizenship if you acquired American citizenship. According to the US Immigration Support webpage and the Citizenship and Immigration Canada webpage it shouldn't, in theory, be a problem. I've no idea how difficult it is to execute in practice however - certainly the U.S. page says they do not encourage dual citizenship.

The following is on the U.S. Dept. of State's website:

"A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth. U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship."

Vagabond, it seems no less ridiculous to me than the original post. Yes, seventeen-year-olds cannot vote because they are not ADULTS. Aliens cannot vote because they are not CITIZENS.

Just to clear things up about ME the poster, which might make things more confusing but since everyone is asking questions I will answer some.

1. I was born in Bosnia, and when the war started my father was taken away to a concentration camp. My mother and I escaped to be with her Serbian family so she could give birth to my sister.When my dad got out (because we gave up the deed) we moved to Croatia, where we were refugees. We didn’t have any citizenship of any country because OUR country broke up. So after the local teenage boys in our neighborhood decided to blow up my dad’s car we decided to move to the US. We applied, sent money and waited. We were denied. So we applied to Canada and they took us in. We lived there for about seven years and got our citizenship in the meantime.
2. My mother (who was a doctor back home) got re-certified by North American standards and got a very good offer from Cook County Hospital, now known as Stroger Hospital. We always wanted to live in America so we decided to move here. So my parents, my sister and I moved here, in Chicago on their two working visas. We’ve been here since then. (Even when we were here on working visas we still paid taxes…just a thought)
3. I basically grew up here and how could I not love it all my friends are here and my soon to be American husband. (No when we get married I will not get citizenship, because it’s more complicated than that). No I cannot vote in Canada because I don’t li