Why don't we expect that little boys will become fathers if we expect girls will become mothers? No, boys are destined for many other things.

It's annoying when people project onto you. It's even more shocking when people learn that I am married and I'm actually pretty good with kids, yet I don't want any of my own. Like when my inlaws saw me holding my cousin's baby and thought it looked "natural" proving that I should have kids since I don't old them like a football.

Our school did the eggs. The school was attempting to show us being teenage/young parents is hard, but I don't think that the message got across very well.

I'm tempted to respond to the next person who asks about my desire for children (strangers ask when they see I wear a ring) and tell them I think kids are assholes and never leave you alone. Maybe then they'll be like maybe you shouldn't have kids...

It's annoying when people project onto you. It's even more shocking when people learn that I am married and I'm actually pretty good with kids, yet I don't want any of my own. Like when my inlaws saw me holding my cousin's baby and thought it looked "natural" proving that I should have kids since I don't old them like a football.

Our school did the eggs. The school was attempting to show us being teenage/young parents is hard, but I don't think that the message got across very well.

I'm tempted to respond to the next person who asks about my desire for children (strangers ask when they see I wear a ring) and tell them I think kids are assholes and never leave you alone. Maybe then they'll be like maybe you shouldn't have kids...

Agreed. I've even heard the term "selfish" applied to women who choose never to have children. How can they be selfish towards someone who doesn't exist?

On the toys front, I think kids grow up imitating what they see and reflect this in play. So to me, it's not the taking care of a doll that's the problem, but that this is so gendered. I think toy companies have a responsibility to de-genderize toys. If you're going to market baby dolls and kitchen sets, market them to all kids. If you're going to make tool sets and dump trucks, make them appeal to everyone. It's so oddly anti-capitalist, always leaving out half your potential market, but all companies do this, and certainly with more than children's toys.

What I hate the most is "you'll change your mind" or " you're just young...you'll want to have them someday." Bullshit! If I do "change my mind" I'll be adopting. I don't think having makes you special or not selfish...if anything it is more selfish to want to pass on your genes. And lets not forget the impact on the environment each child has. All those diapers, bottles and toys. People are funny when it comes to reproduction.

I've never understood why ANY aspect of fertility is so cavalierly discussed. There is no way of knowing why anyone makes a choice they make. I never ask my friends if they plan on having kids, or if they plan on having more kids. Some people don't want to have kids- which is no one's business. Some people can't have kids, which is no one's business. Some people want only one kid, which is no one's business. Some people want seven, which is no one's business.

But I truly believe that people believe parenting is a spectator sport and everyone is a commentator.

When people say to me "you'll change your mind when you're older" I feel like punching something. I just don't understand how making a conscious, well thought-out decision to NOT reproduce is seen as immature.
When people ask me why...I say that I don't see myself ever willing to make the sacrifices required to have a baby. I don't want to put my career on hold for God knows how many years. I don't get how that's selfish...it's just me wanting to make sure YEARS of hard work don't go to waste.

I knew as young as 12 that I didn't want kids, or a husband for that matter, and all everyone kept telling me was "You say that now/I said the same when I was your age/you'll change your mind in a few years." Very annoying.

15 years later, I still don't want kids and I'm still pretty positive I don't want a husband. Yeah, I can see how my mind's really changed.

I agree 100%. Though I thought about having kids over the years, it was never a driving goal in my life. Now, I am pregnant and I know I'm about to embark on the scary adventure that is parenthood but it doesn't make me feel like I'm fulfilling some lifelong dream or destiny. I'm happy about being pregnant. This is something boyfriend and I did intentionally. But, I continue to reject this notion that having a baby is a cure all for any personal angst, dissatisfaction or issues a woman might have (though, this attitude is prevalent in the pregnancy/baby literature and websites). This is just one of the many decisions about our lives that we make. Women can be perfectly happy without having kids.

I have to say, I always hated that "oh, don't worry you'll change your mind" attitude.

I definitely agree! When I tell people I'm not interested in marriage or motherhood, I get that patronizing tone and response from other women in my life that goes somewhat like, "Oh, well you're young. When you grow up and meet MR. RIGHT, you'll want all of that." Mr. Right? Would somebody spare me? And even though I'm old enough to make all other decisions about my life (21), my beliefs on these issues will just SPONTANEOUSLY reverse and I'll just be dying for a huge wedding and baby-making with that perfect man.

I have nothing against women who choose motherhood and are happy doing it, but I am not, nor have I ever been, enamored with the idea of children. I get especially agitated when older women don't respect my opinions or reasons for choosing the lifestyle I have, and think it is just some silly phase I will grow out of when some mystery man makes me see the light and folly of my ways. Psh! Who needs a man anyways?!?!

I like to tell people that I hate children (which I do hate, by the way) and when they have this shocked look on their faces, I just smile.

I don't care what people think. I hate children, I don't want to be a mother, and I want nothing to do with kids.

god, seriously, if i hear "oh, you'll change your mind in a few years!" one more time, heads will roll. i do get that some people do change their minds and ultimately decide to have children, but increasingly not every woman does! also, it's annoying how not only am i asked about my plans for marriage/kids much more often than my boyfriend, guys who say they don't want kids are much less likely to be patronized about it.

i can't say that i won't change my mind--it's theoretically possible, but at this point highly unlikely. i like other people's kids, but i like playing with them and then leaving someone else to handle them when they get loud or poopy or otherwise ill company. sometimes it sounds appealing to be a parent (though i'd probably adopt), but it's just so much responsibility and i'm such an independent person who needs a lot of space that i'm not sure i would be very happy as a parent. basically i just think that there are other people who are better at and happier parenting than i would be and that there are things i can do with my life that i'm better at and would enjoy more. apparently this is somehow selfish or freakish or un-feminine of me.

i'll go right out and add, as a soap-box rant, that i might feel less terrified of having children if a) parenting weren't, as mama mia so eloquently put it, a "spectator sport" and b) if this country attempted in any way to make it feasible to have a successful career and be a mom. i'm just not sure i want to fight an uphill battle on that front.

YES. I have been telling my family since I was 12 years old that I do not want to have children. Now I am 26 and still feel that way. I happen to have met the man with whom I want to spend my life three years ago, and luckily he does not want children either. I'm not even good with other people's children. They bewilder and scare me a little, especially if they are pre-verbal. My not wanting to have children has nothing to do with my career or my relationship status and everything to do with me knowing that I would be a terrible mother, AND knowing that I would not ENJOY being a mother. My own parents enraged me last Christmas by saying out loud to each other as my boyfriend and I were in another room that we are going to get divorced/break up as soon as normal human nature and hormones kick in for me. They are apparently anxiously awaiting the day I lose my mind and am desperate for a baby, even though I know in my heart of hearts that day will never come. As far as my friends go, only one couple we know (who happen to be pregnant!) treat our plans for a childless life as an actual reasoned plan. I am forced to respect your choices in life to the point where if I want to hang out with you I have to also hang out with your kid, so please have the courtesy to respect MY choices in life enough not to question them or cajole me to change them!
Another thing that makes me so angry is that we are not allowed to use surgical procedures to ensure this never happens because we are obviously so young and stupid that we couldn't possible know what we actually want out of life.

Yup, same here. I've been married for 14 years and neither of us wants kids. Seriously, it just isn't for us.

His folks are great about it. They're glad we know what we want, and know enough to not try to force it.

My folks, not so cool, but they're letting it go. My mom did try to reverse psychology me into it when we first got married. As a stubborn child, reverse psychology worked spectacularly with me. Now that I'm an adult and know what they're up to, not so much. Thankfully.

I feel the exact way. However, since I'm a senior in college, I'll "eventually change my mind." according to everyone I know. I've also heard people who think that women who don't wish to have children as selfish, so now when I hear that, I just tend to ignore it.

Can I just say AMEN to that?! For years I've known I don't want children and I don't want to be married and I ALWAYS get the same response "You'll change your mind when you get older." No, I won't. It's so frustrating! I'm more than biology!! I have other aspirations!

What's honestly more frustrating for me, even beyond the "Oh, you'll change your mind," are the folks who say, in the most condescending manner possible, "It's different when you adopt." Considering that the man I'm proud to call my brother was adopted over ten years ago, they're generally lucky if I don't reach out and smack them.

And I knew at 16 that I'm not the mothering type. I knew when I was 24 and getting married. Seven years later, still married, but people can't get it through their skulls that I DON"T WANT KIDS!!!! (only marginally less frustrating are the family member who refuse to remember that I kept my maiden name.) I don't like kids I can't give back, and the thought of being pregnant makes me nauseated. Knowing I'm not cut out for motherhood before having kids seems like a good thing, yes?

I hear this... I hate the whole 'youll change your mind' or 'wait till yer hormones kick in' attitude... I don't like kids and pregnancy and birth kind of scares me, it seems weird to have a will-be-sentient being growing up in one of yer organs and suckin' up yer nutrients and such. Yuck...
my mom is awesome about the whole thing, but my partner's mom used to always ask myself and my partner about it. thankfully my partner's brother's wife got pregnant so that's distracted her for awhile.

The thing is, I love kids. Between the ages of 2 and 8, I think they're the best thing around. But I know I wouldn't enjoy them so much if I had to be around them ALL THE TIME, and you can't exactly adopt a kid from ages 2 to 8 but then give them back.

For a long time, I used my little brother (who was born when I was 13 and who I babysat every day until I moved out of the house at 18) as an excuse when people would say crap to me about having kids. "I basically already have a kid," I would say, and they would smile like that actually meant something. But I got really tired of basically reaffirming what everyone was saying when that wasn't what I meant at all, so now I am completely honest. And no one really asks me anymore, either, because they know they'll just get a wry, "I like to be able to give them back" in return.

vcmaude commented at August 11, 2008 2:19 PM: "It's so oddly anti-capitalist, always leaving out half your potential market, but all companies do this, and certainly with more than children's toys."

OTOH, planned obsolescence is kinda pro-capitalist. By gendering toys they're leaving out half the second-hand "market" and promoting more purchases of new toys. Suppose a girl's parents buy her a bunch of toys and then have a boy. If their culture tells the boy that he can't play with girls' toys, he's more likely to ask his parents to buy new toys for him and less likely to be happy playing with his sister's hand-me-downs and playing with his sister with the toys she's still using herself...

It's funny, in high school my best friend would always say she didn't want kids, and my immediate reaction was to roll my eyes and say "Oh, you'll change your mind..."

Now my older, better educated, feminist self cringes when I hear others say the same to her. I hate seeing how people assume it's so natural for women to become mothers that they think it will (and should) somehow happen, even if the woman doesn't want it. And I hate to see how my friend almost seems to agree. She hasn't had the same exposure to feminist thinking as I have, and I think it really affects her, hearing everyone scoff at her ideas about motherhood over and over again.

She probably will have kids someday, when family, friends and the man she marries all expect her too, even if she doesn't want it. I wonder how happy that situation will be? And I wonder how many other women succumb to the same pressures, not realizing any other option is acceptable?

I'm the oldest of five (I'm 20, the youngest is not yet 2), so I've been raising kids my whole life. I also worked at a daycare chasing 20+ 4-8 year olds around every day. I know what it's like. I deal with it on a day to day basis and it's difficult, and even then I know it's still MUCH harder to be the parent than the sibling or temporary caretaker.

So, you'd think people would take me seriously when I expressed doubt about wanting to be a mom. And yet, I get the same reaction every time. "Oh, you'll change your mind when you're older." When? I've already had tons of experience with children. Much more than most of my friends have that tell me the same thing, all the time.

If anything, I may have one child or adopt... but even that may not be enough. All of my aunts and uncles have at least four children. My extended family is HUGE. I think even if I do have a child, all I'll hear is "when are you going to have another?" It's ridiculous.

At least I know my family will be supportive about adoption, one of my sisters is adopted. They know very well that adopting a child is in no way worse than having your own :)

I've always been uncertain about children. I don't particularly enjoy the company of small children or babies... This seems to be some kind of maternal impediment. However, I've never been able to say I'd never be willing to have a child of my own. I haven't yet desired this. I don't anticipate desiring this. But the future, well... who knows, right? I might fall down and hit my head and change my mind.

But I agree that there is a tremendous amount of pressure on women to multiply. When I was in high school, our teachers used to ask us, especially in our senior year, where we saw ourselves in ten years. The boys would talk about a career. The girls would talk about being married and having 2-3 children. Even girls with straight A's... they might make a concession towards being a "nurse" but they always came back to the family goal. Which is fine, I guess--but the sheer number of girls who could fantasize about nothing further boggled my mind.

I talked about working on my PhD. Traveling the world. Writing.

Did I miss something? It's nearly ten years since I graduated from high school, and I'm not married, and I don't have children. Did I mess up? Did my mother forget to browbeat me into fertility?

Why don't we expect that little boys will become fathers if we expect girls will become mothers? No, boys are destined for many other things.

Society does, actually.

The reason that people in general will assume women will become mothers, is that in great majority, they do. The vast, vast majority of women, even the ones that say they'll "never have kids", eventually DO have them.

That's where the attitude of "you'll change your mind" tends to come from, as well. Because a lot of women DO change their mind when it comes to it.

Also, because speaking in pure absolutes is generally not something anyone takes seriously.

People change, and vastly so, over the course of their lives. You can say that right now, you definitely don't want children, but you can't make that call for the "you" from 10 years from now. Nobody really can, at least not with honest certainty.

That's why people have a hard time taking it seriously.

I could write about this all day, but basically, I feel your pain. The most serious problem I have with this attitude (i.e. that "you'll change your mind") is that it translates into active resistance to my plans not to become a mother.

I get this ALL the time. I've been married 8 years, and I am absolutely sure he has never had to deal with the same question. I usually respond to the kids question with I have three canine children. Beautiful boxers, but dogs can also be limiting.
I think even when I was a kid, I was sure that I didn't want them. I have explained to my family that if we (husband and I) do have children they will be adopted as, frankly, I find the idea of pregnancy so unappealing; not to mention the notion of having to put a child first. I guess I'm more of a dog-person rather than a child-person!

I am absolutely sure he has never had to deal with the same question.

You'd be surprised. Women love to give me crap because I'm 28 and have no children.

I am now 21 and realizing how little I want to be a parent. This unfortunately resulted in my very first conflict with my boyfriend (a great guy, very supportive of my politics and feminism) last weekend, when I was apparently the first person to challenge the idea of automatically getting married and having children. I basically said that I was open to changing my mind (which is true) but that I wanted to be able to say no, that it's just not for me.
I feel the same way as many of you- I am not a big fan of young children, and even though I was an awesome babysitter, I knew even as a young teen that the idea of kids just turned me off. Ironically, our conversation took place at a family reunion with many young children. I would be talking with one parent for 2 minutes about my major, and suddenly we would part as their child spilled something or began screaming and needed attention. My parents are amazing and I respect all parents for their dedication, it's just not my cup of tea. Within one hour, my boyfriend admitted to seeing all of my points clearly.

yesssssssss it seems to be something about the 20's that brings this on? As if suddenly when you're 20-something your focus should shift to baby-making and house-cleaning? I don't get it. And I can only imagine the questioning and probing and "influencing" gets worse with age.

What I especially love is that people do not even take into account the actual person- ie who you are, what your social location is, what exactly you want to do with life, the fact that you have openly stated your life plans which do not include babies- and instead assume that since you are 1. alive 2. presumably healthy and stable and 3. female, you are looking forward to and planning pregnancy. Regardless of your actual age. Regardless of your disdain towards kids and large bellies. Regardless that you just spent 5 years at X University studying X with concrete and distinct plans to continue studying X for another 5+ years at grad school. All of which contain NO plans for babies.

Yea, they don't seem to hear that.

Just in case a different user name shows I'm both sinful rib and wonder woman. And thanks for replying.

"If you're going to market baby dolls and kitchen sets, market them to all kids." I agree but the market wants to place everyone into a role, gosh! who knows who is in the hands of all these decisions of putting roles to people. I guess it's so every citizen does it duty, sorry if it sounds so shocking but hey were not so far from brainwashing kids like the Nazis did to women and men. Girls are to be mothers men are to be soldiers and spread their genes. But I also agree with this point of view; "OTOH, planned obsolescence is kinda pro-capitalist. By gendering toys they're leaving out half the second-hand "market" and promoting more purchases of new toys. Suppose a girl's parents buy her a bunch of toys and then have a boy.
"I've even heard the term "selfish" applied to women who choose never to have children. "
Now I think when it comes to society and conditioning it really works! You get people seriously believing that definition of a woman could be: mothers, wives, girlfriends, hookers, sluts,liars, cheaters.....all of these words are just made to put people inside a bubble with their minds, people are so stupid they no longer think for themselves! they eat everything everyone tells them. For example Simone de beavouir's "The second sex" she mentions how a woman is not born but made. That is exactly what people think of women and any other type of human being. They put humans that are black into this stereotype they put white into another, females into another, and so on. To me there is no essential authentic or real idea of a "woman." Women were created for society and mainly men's purpose, that is why all our role expectations are "coincidently" agreed with men's demanding of us. There is no real woman out there , all those ideas are created by men or whomever wants to keep humans slaves. Most people in this world, will not let anyone live for themselves, by that I mean right away when your born your immediately placed with some type of label. We are all just been classify into labels, just like animals are in their own ecosystems! Do you think it's right? does this classification serves it purpose to society? Apparently to the government does, since their all the way at the top and women and minorities are all the way at the bottom of the food chain in society. Were always going to be classified no matter what government type we have; capitalism, fascism, communism,....
This systems sucks, because it makes people nothing but tools.

GoGirlGoGo commented at August 12, 2008 9:28 AM: "Did I miss something? It's nearly ten years since I graduated from high school, and I'm not married, and I don't have children. Did I mess up? Did my mother forget to browbeat me into fertility?"

Sounds like you missed nothing good, you didn't mess up, and your mother remembered to do better than browbeat you into fertility. :)

Why don't we expect that little boys will become fathers if we expect girls will become mothers? No, boys are destined for many other things.

Society does, actually.

Black Thirteen:
I WHOLEHEARTEDLY disagree with you here. I understand that you've been bugged for not having kids and that men will be bugged as they age for remaining childless, but the extent to which boys are socialized for parenthood isn't even in the same ballpark as it is for girls. Without even mentioning toys like baby dolls, kitchen sets and other "playing house" toys, there are numerous ways in which girls are told they will definitely be mothers. Politicians of the pro-life persuasion have suggested women always be in a state of "possible pregnancy," where bodies must be fit for having a child at all times, regardless of those women's wishes. NEVER has there been any mention of possible fatherhood bodies, even though it would certainly be ideal for both partners to be physically and emotionally fit upon the birth of a child.
Again, I understand that people have approached you, but is it really to the same extent as a female at your age? I can say that my boyfriend at 22 has been asked about his future plans in passing, but I have been absolutely INUNDATED with questions from my traditional paternal relatives. Also, in regular conversation with older females that I rarely know, it is a regular topic of conversation when they ask me about myself. Is it the same for you?
I could go on, into further rhetoric coming from a million sources, but I don't feel it's necessary. I see what you're saying, but I also see how inaccurate that statement is at its very core.

NEVER has there been any mention of possible fatherhood bodies,

We don't carry the child. We don't need to mind our vitamin intake, etcetera.

Women might be taught they aren't "good women" if they don't have kids, but men are taught we aren't "good men" if we don't concentrate on turning our lives into a financial framework for family providing.

Trust me, we get the same message, it's just delivered differently.

Is it the same for you?

At least once a day, I get told by a woman that I'm "wrong", that I'm "being unreasonable/silly", that I'll "understand when I have my own", that I should "just wait til I meet the right girl", I was derided for considering purchasing a car with only two seats because "you'll just have to sell it when you start a family", etcetera.

At least once a day. Sometimes more.

Black Thirteen - So, I guess sperm count (strongly influenced by a number of factors relating to a man's physical and psychological health) has nothing to do with conception.

Black Thirteen - So, I guess sperm count (strongly influenced by a number of factors relating to a man's physical and psychological health) has nothing to do with conception.

Not really relevant. If a man eats crappy and doesn't take folic acid or whatever, it won't create a child with a high risk of birth defects/premature/etcetera.

That's why more focus is placed on the woman's health. Conception will eventually happen, regardless of health/sperm count. However, the health of the child will be greatly affected by the mothers vitamin intake.

NEVER has there been any mention of possible fatherhood bodies,

We don't carry the child. We don't need to mind our vitamin intake, etcetera.

Didn't ask for a biology lesson- I get that we have the uterus, but there continues to be an imbalance in the expectations for women. A male body that is in good physical condition (yes, including sperm count) would be best suited for raising kids, especially as they get older and run around like crazy.

That sucks that you get badgered, but I still contend that my boyfriend- with a 2-seater CRX, mind you!- just hasn't faced the same level of scrutiny, nor have my 5 male roommates, nor have any guy in my classes. I am in sociology, so we talk about societal pressure for kids and marriage on a daily basis in different contexts. If you're an outlier, I get that, but I will continue to assert that the framework for pressuring women into motherhood is FAR stronger than for fatherhood.

Didn't ask for a biology lesson- I get that we have the uterus, but there continues to be an imbalance in the expectations for women.

Well, if you express irritation that the expectations are on the women, eventually someone will point out the fact that it's her health that matters in terms of carrying and birthing the child. The male's health doesn't matter. Even with a lower sperm count, eventually, he's going to get you pregnant.

I am in sociology, so we talk about societal pressure for kids and marriage on a daily basis in different contexts. If you're an outlier, I get that, but I will continue to assert that the framework for pressuring women into motherhood is FAR stronger than for fatherhood.

I'm just pointing out the pressure is the same, just applied differently.

Women will lean that pressure on men a great deal. Also because not only are we expected to father children, we're expected to make ALL OUR LIFE DECISIONS based around making sure we have enough money to raise kids.

"You know, at your age, you really should look into moving into a better paying job in your field. I mean, what're you going to do when you start raising a family, and still make what you do now?"

Blahhhhh, hate that one.

I think that women get more of the pressure of being mothers and wanting children naturally. But I think that men also experience that differently, like Black thirteen said, it is in a more "are you going to be able to have financial support for children?" and if your can't then your pretty much looked as it is all your fault and your a bad father. But as far I've known my brother and my boyfriend, say they are not really pressure on society expecting them to naturally want to be fathers. I think men's pressure is mainly focused on things like; having money, good car,a career,how many women they've had... and so on. Basically their being pressure on a variety of things. And women are being pressure on mainly being a mother or an extremely sexy woman.

People seem to have some strange ideas about women who don't want children. I told a colleague I didn't ever want kids and she looked me right in the eye and said "Oh, I didn't realise you were a lesbian". Where did THAT come from?! I guess people have strange ideas about modern gay relationships around here too.