I've noted so far that being pregnant is the fastest way to be both scrutinized and invisible- no part of you seems to exist beyond your uterus. I'm not showing yet, but when I do, I'm planning some snappy answers to people's nosiness. Nothing mean-spirited, but just a bit to challenge the notion that pregnant women are publicly-owned vessels.

Why is that their business? Because once a woman becomes pregnant, her body becomes public property. She is subject to public debate and comment, even inappropriate touching by strangers. In some cases, decisions involving the fate of her pregnancy, whether through the birthing process or abortion, are removed from her control.

Frankly, this is the fundamental reason why motherhood turns me off. It is not the process of caring for and nurturing a child to adulthood - which I am sure would be very rewarding. It is not the weight gain or fear of childbirth or time- intensive nature of motherhood. It is the fundamental truth that once a woman becomes pregnant, she is shoved headfirst into a role with a set of expectations and criticisms that can be all consuming at times. What little control we had over our lives and destinies just by virtue of being women, is either crushed in an instant or subjected to a slow and painful death by a thousand paper cuts. I am guilty of it, too. I have unfairly judged mothers before - on this very board.

Hopefully someday this will change. Anyway, I hope that you have a better experience than I described. For now, just focus on your kid (and all the free stuff you might get at your baby shower if you are having one!)and try to ignore the ignorant fuckwads of the world that feel they have the right to comment on your pregnancy. Although that one-liner about the menopausal women was pretty good, and personally, I wouldn't be above using it!

My mother thinks it's an example of society's benevolent feelings towards pregnant women (people are happy to see them and want to talk to them).

That's why I smile at pregnant women. But then, I also have the social grace to not be obvious about it and I don't approach them, pester them with questions or (horrors!) ask to touch their tummies.

Not totally on topic, but when I was pregnant the euphemism "bun in the oven" would almost invariably send me into a homicidal frenzy.
"So, you've got a bun in the oven?" Ugh, still makes me mad for some inexplicable reason.
(perhaps it's the obvious comparison to inanimate objects and baked goods)

I've never been pregnant, so I wouldn't know what it was like to recieve that much attention all the time. But personally, as long as they were respectful, I would love it if random strangers came up to me one the street and asked me borderline personal questions. I'm sick of living in a society of such extreme individualism and independence that people can't talk to other people.

However, being treated as an oddity or as public property would get very irritating, very fast.

See I've never been pregnant, but my mom was pregnant when I was twelve and I remember random strangers coming up and touching her belly like that was okay...wtf?!

I do not see how it is anyone's business much less their right to touch the belly of a pregnant woman who you do not know...a couple of people almost lost a hand when my mom was pregnant...

I understand how frustrating it would be to have a constant line of the same questions from strangers all the time, and the touching the belly thing really pisses me off, but I don't think people are necessarily just being rude. For instance, if I was standing in line at the grocery store and the man in front of me was holding a book I'd read or something, I'd talk to him about it. I think a lot of people just naturally want to be friendy and talk to others, and being pregnant provides them with something to talk about. I really do understand how that can be frustrating and like I said that belly thing really pisses me off, but I think some people just want to be friendly, even if misguided.

I think pregnant women are beautiful and I usually smile at them, but not with intentions of hurting their feelings or belittling them. I guess when I'm pregnant if someone smiles at me, I'd probably take it as a friendly gesture. Now, it's totally different if someone were to try and touch my belly. That would piss me off to no end. I'd probably chop someone's hand off or spray them in the face with pepper spray. I wouldn't want a stranger touching me when I'm not pregnant, and having a little fetus in me doesn't mean a free pass for wayward hands.

There is something interesting about that smiling business. It really only happens on your first pregnancy. People look at you and smile because they are excited for you and think you are entering into a magical land. But when people see a pregnant woman with a child, they don't smile. They almost frown, like you are already there, so you don't need any congratulations, and boy, I wouldn't want to have that many kids, and that one kid is out of control and she is going to have another?!

As for the touching, an old russian woman with a thick accent came up to me in the grocery store and rubbed my belly like a crystal ball and told me I would have a girl. I got lots of comments, but generally just people being friendly. Once the child gets older, the comments get more pointed.

Lastly, taxgirl, I understand your point that motherhood is subject to a lot of criticism- this is true, and it can be quite painful. But I also find it painful to hear women without children say the reason they don't have kids is because it is like being "crushed in an instant or subjected to a slow and painful death by a thousand paper cuts." It kind of feels like I am being written off, like I chose to give in to the patriarchy. I don't think this is what you mean, but that is how it feels.

But I also find it painful to hear women without children say the reason they don't have kids is because it is like being "crushed in an instant or subjected to a slow and painful death by a thousand paper cuts." It kind of feels like I am being written off, like I chose to give in to the patriarchy. I don't think this is what you mean, but that is how it feels.

I think that ideals of pregnancy and motherhood are so enmeshed within our patriarchal society that it creates a lot of defensiveness on both sides. Childless, I can't escape hearing and feeling the tsk-tsks and accusations of selfishness I'm showing by NOT having kids (and those are very real and have been verbalized by people I do love and who do love me). That tends to put some of us in a defensive position where we cry out "No kids EVAR!!!11!"

However, even when I feel like this, I don't in any way feel that those women who have picked motherhood are "giving in." I feel bad for women who truly didn't want children but felt they had to have them. But for women who really do want kids and want to be mothers, go for it! I don't want to be a mom right now (and maybe never). I also don't want to be a plumber right now, but have nothing against those who do want to do that.

But back to the main post:

I'm terrified of the idea of pregnancy anyway. There might be a way that I get "cool" with the idea of growing something inside of my own body, but the idea of strangers getting too personal is not ever going to be okay. I have a feeling that if anyone assumed that I was a jolly pregnant woman and tried to rub my belly, I would grab their wrist and squeeze it while staring them dead in the eyes without blinking. I say in a flat voice, "Some pregnant women don't like being touched. Please don't do it again unless you're expressly invited."

Grr.

"I don't want to be a mom right now (and maybe never). I also don't want to be a plumber right now, but have nothing against those who do want to do that."

When people say things like this, it is like I have given in to the plumberarchy. (This, of course, is a joke!)

ElleStar, you probably agree with me that the MOST frustrating part of this all is that it is that all the sides of the motherhood question feel defensive. I have heard working moms say that only stay at home moms are validated, I have heard stay at home moms say the same thing, and child free women say the same thing. We all feel we need to defend ourselves, and we all hear belittling comments. Obviously, as I am not a man, I can't compare my experiences to mens, but I often wonder if there is a similar situation for them. When I asked my husband for an example, he says the only man who has to defend himself is the stay at home dad. If a man is working, then he doesn't have to explain anything. He can be a bad dad, bad husband, bad friend, but if he is supporting his family, he's a "man".

My reaction to taxgirl is one that feeds into that problem. I need to stop defending myself. But it's really hard.

I empathize on how annoying it must be to have strangers assume they should know about your personal life.

I have a question, though. I'm a hairdresser. The salon I work at relies mostly on walk-ins. Occasionally, those walk-ins are pregnant. I won't say anything to them about being pregnant unless they bring it up first. I ask them how they are, where they work, etc. Stuff that is somewhat personal, but I try not to be too nosy, as it really is none of my business, but it's better to talk to them than not. Then clients get bored/think you're rude. Having said this, would it be too nosy of me, if I ask them when they're expecting/know what sex it is? Like I said, I try not to bring up the subject unless they say something first, although I have a couple times, because it really isn't my business/doesn't effect me. Just wondering what you think.

"I also find it painful to hear women without children say the reason they don't have kids is because it is like being "crushed in an instant or subjected to a slow and painful death by a thousand paper cuts." It kind of feels like I am being written off, like I chose to give in to the patriarchy. I don't think this is what you mean, but that is how it feels."

On the contrary. I don't think you have given into anything accept your desire to be a mother, which is fine. I feel for mothers - I wish society treated them better. I wish childcare was more affordable, mothers were not discriminated against at work and could breastfeed their babies in peace. But I have enough problems. I don't need anything else that will make my life harder. It took me 18 months to find a job coming out of school. The job that I managed to get barely pays my bills, I have had to pawn personal belongings to pay my phone bill. I would cancel my home phone and cable and internet, but I work from home and I need the phone and the internet to work. I would just go into the office, but it is so far that the phone and internet costs less per month than the gas it would take to get there.

I am a black woman. Becoming a mother makes me 5 times more likely to live in poverty. My economic condition is already difficult enough. I don't know what YOUR financial situation is, but motherhood would crush me in an instant.

Lori - I can't speak for everybody but I find that in situations that require small talk, reference to the pregnancy doesn't bother me. I just don't like random strangers with no reason to talk to me wanting a piece of the experience.

Mama Mia - I didn't even think of how a preexisting kid would change the public's reaction to a pregnant woman. Also, I understand that unsolicited advice/criticism from strangers increases once the baby is born. I'm NOT looking forward to that!

I'm also pregnant. With #3. My first two are 13 and 2.

I'm not really showing yet, so I haven't had to deal with all the questions and tummy touching. But it will come, I'm sure.

I'm sick of people asking me if my first two are from the same Daddy. Can you even believe someone would ask me that?! Sometimes, if they know us a little, they get more subtle. "So, how long have you been together?" 13 years. "Oh. And how old are your kids now?" Fuck off. Seriously. What business of theirs is it? My minister has told me that people ask *her* if she knows whether my husband is father to both my kids!

I'm also sick to death of people telling me how "irresponsible" I'm being by having a third. Yeah yeah, overpopulation. Whatever. Go to hell. For one thing, I didn't say, "You know, I want my kids to outnumber me. I want to make sure that there is no zero population growth here". I didn't even plan this damn pregnancy (and that wasn't irresponsibility either).

And finally, so help me god... "Did you plan this?" pisses me off to no end. To a few people, I've said, "Why? Does that matter?" They don't get it and say, "No. Just curious. So? Did you plan it?" This time, I'm planning to say, "Are you seriously asking me about my sex life?"

And one last thing. On the touching me issue. I work at a church. There are a gazillion old people there. They *will* touch me. I can't very well break their wrists. I'm not sure how I'm going to handle that one this time. Ideas would be fantastic.

Luna, you can wear a shirt or a button that says "don't fucking touch me or I will punch you in the face". I don't know if that's appropriate for church but it will probably solve that problem. Maybe the minister could briefly discuss etiquette in the seminar and tell people that some people do not want to be touched and find it inappropriate when people touch their pregnant bellies, or something of the sort.

A shirt is a good idea. I'm thinking something like, "Hands off the belly!" or, "Unless you put the baby in here, NO TOUCHING!" :)

Definitely not having the minister say something. There are two women under 40 in our congregation. It would not not not go over well.

Thanks for the ideas. I love the shirt/button idea. :)

This is interesting to me.

I've never been pregnant so I've never experienced the intrusiveness that many of you describe. But whenever I've observed strangers interacting with pregnant women I've always felt quite heartened and more or less took it to be well-meaning. I think a part of why strangers talk to pregnant women is because we've all heard about what happens during pregnancy, the cravings, the mood-swings, the morning sickness. We also know that bringing a life into this world is a beautiful and sacred thing and an incredible gift, so we can't help but be enamoured by pregnant women, to wish for their well-being, and to offer a friendly smile. The belly-touching is a bit weird, but I think on the whole people generally mean well and I don't really understand a lot of the irritation and hostility expressed here. It's one of the few times in a women's adult life in which she is universally admired and looked out for. Is that such a terrible thing?

Shocking but true comments from strangers to me or my friends during pregnancy:

Were you able to get pregnant the regular way or did you need in vitro?

Do you think having a second child is smart when your first is special needs? You might get another one!

Your first child is still so young. I would never have kids so close together. That's just stupid.

Having a miscarriage is no excuse for not having a kid yet. (that one came from my mother in law)

It's been scientifically proven that only children are more likely to be serial killers. (Both my child and I are only children- I was almost motivated to kill by this comment)

ALL TRUE

Taxgirl,
I totally understand your feelings and find them all very logical. I think you are making the right decision for yourself, and I think you are smart enough to make that decision.

Lori,
It shouldn't be too much of a problem to mention the pregnancy (as long as you are certain it isn't just weight gain). I don't think most women would have a problem with it, particularly since you are in a relationship (hair dresser/customer) and not just a stranger. And obviously, don't tell horror stories about labor or loss or anything like that.

Tori,
I actually didn't have a problem with people saying nice things or congratulations or something like that. I think it is a bit like when you see actors doing interviews and you know this is the 100th of the day getting asked the same question over and over. Sometimes the questions seem innocent but require a long intimate response. And sometimes you just want to be anonymous. But I think generally people are just being nice, and trying to connect with a shared experience, like you said.

"I'm sick of people asking me if my first two are from the same Daddy. Can you even believe someone would ask me that?!"

Sadly, it isn't just mothers who get asked things like that. My sisters are 7 years younger than me (and twins). I've been asked if I got along with my dad's new wife (and it is always my DAD who has a new wife and not my mom who went off and found herself another guy), I've been asked where my mother is, and I've been asked how long my father and my sisters' mother have been together for. It always shocks people when I tell them that my sisters' mother is in fact my mother, and that they've been married for 30 years thank you very much. Then comes the questions about why they waited so long to have kids!

Women can't, as a rule, win when it comes to family planning. Having kids close together is "crazy"; having them too far apart is also crazy. Not having kids right away is selfish. Having kids right away isn't practical. It is just a long crazy system that makes me want to tear my hair out.

"None of your fucking business" is always a cromulent answer, but when I wish to be polite, I like Miss Manner's advice for dealing with unwanted comments:

"How kind of you to take an interest." (follow with icy stare)

I HATED the attention I got when I was pregnant. And it hasn't stopped, because my child happens to be conventionally attractive and has striking red hair. My husband and I both have brown hair, so I get from total strangers "oh, where did that red hair come from?" I hate hate hate this question! What would the answer possibly mean to you? You don't know my husband's dead grandfather on his dad's side- you just saw me for the first time in a hardware store. My best friend told me to memorize a ten-minute lecture about latent genetic traits and subject everyone who asks to the entire thing, and I'm starting to seriously consider it. It'd serve them right. Oh, and if one more person makes some sort of clever comment about the mailman or the milkman, I'm going to fucking explode. Thanks for implying I cheat on my husband! How cute and completely appropriate! grr

The only person I've ever seen get as many questions from strangers as a pregnant woman is my boyfriend...he's 6'8 and people always ask how tall he is and if he plays basketball. And therefore, through my association with him I can see how absolutely annoying it is to have the same question leveled at you all the time. Can't imagine what will happen if we ever decide to have a kid together...

Everyone has a right to their privacy, but out in public we have to interact with people all the time, whether on our terms or not. If someone means well, then I'm not sure the abusive internal monologue is necessary- wouldn't a simple smile and, "it's kind of private for me, actually" be more effective?

I'm thinking of my mother when I say this. She loves babies, had two of them, and feels a special camaraderie with expectant mothers and mothers to be. She even helped our neighbour through her birth and cut the cord, and she certainly smiles at babies and mothers on the street all the time. She does this because she sees it as a kind gesture- she knows its not easy being pregnant or having a baby, and its the kindness in her that prompts her to reach out to woman.

At the same time, when she was working in Tokyo with me in her belly, she certainly did not appreciate the belly rubbing- or when people touched her red curly perm in absolute awe, for that matter. There are lines that can be crossed when we interact in public, but I would advocate treating people on a human-by-human basis.

So, if my mom is in your checkout line one day and smiles at you, please just smile back- she's just trying to be nice in a world that is often hostile to mothers.

To everyone who's mentioning the "they're just trying to be polite/supportive/whatever" angle:

I don't mind being smiled at in public, and if your mother or grandmother is just trying to be nice to me I'm not going to go into an angry rage on her ass. We, as pregnant women, get that people are trying to be nice, and that's not what pisses us off. For me at least, what bothers me is the contrast between pregnant and/or toddler-toting and the pre-baby years. Was I not worth smiling at before? I've been told I have an off-putting expression on my face more often than not, and before I got pregnant I was used to being considered relatively unapproachable, even though the people who actually bothered to get to know me would find out I can, in fact, be nice. Then I got pregnant, and although the facial expression didn't change, suddenly I was approachable. I felt a huge boundary shift when moving through public spaces- my bubble got smaller. So even though most people were saying relatively banal things to me and doing so in a conventionally polite way, I honestly just felt a bit violated by the change. Also, even though I have always wanted a child and planned to have one and was happy to be pregnant (hormones permitting), I was very uncomfortable with the sheer amount of public approval it gained me. People don't smile at me because they see me heading into work, or buying my own power tools. But I'm having a baby- oh! Well done! There's something useful! It doesn't surprise me in the least to hear that this changes with the second and third pregnancies and people start to police you for being selfish or overpopulating or whatever it is they think. I hope this makes sense, but I wanted to explain a bit- I know where you're coming from, I have a cute little grandmother too who I don't want people yelling curses at, but I still think the anger pregnant women feel at this is VERY valid.

I smile at cute babies and kids (and they're all cute), and their moms too. You get twice the joy spread around from smiling at a mom and kid than from only a mom-to-be, and when you're covered in formula stains and exhausted, I'd imagine that you'd welcome a reason to smile.

I don't think it has anything to do with declaring a woman public property. For the most part, it's women that ask these questions, so I'm going to look at it from that point.

Perhaps it's a woman who remembers having her own kids, and she's excited for you, during what (presumably) is a happy time for you.

Perhaps it's a younger woman, who is trying to get pregnant, and finds it joyful that you are.

In general, these are not evil or negative things these women are approaching you with.

An intended or wanted pregnancy is (supposed to be) a happy thing, and some people just want to share in a bit.

They don't mean any harm, they're happy for you, and generally, most pregnant women can't STOP talking about it.

Seriously, in a society where all of our interpersonal interactions have become small-talk, people actually being personally interested in another's life is refreshing.

My mother thinks it's an example of society's benevolent feelings towards pregnant women (people are happy to see them and want to talk to them).

I think your mom is right. People, especially other women, especially other women who are moms themselves are fascinated by pregnant women. Kudos to you for handling the unwanted attention so gracefully. Remember - some day when you're an old grandma you may feel the same tenderness towards the pregnant women you see.

When I was pregnant with my daughter I didn't get a whole lot of this kind of attention, I guess I was just lucky. People occasionally asked me when I was due, but many just congratulated me, which I thought was pretty nice. There was one woman who saw me outside a restaurant (when I was only about seven months, by the way), and remarked "Ooh, that's a big one!" LOL! That was my only negative experience so I'm able to laugh at it now.

For those who have never been pregnant - what can I say? It's a unique experience that's completely different for every woman. I was afraid of it more than I could say until the day that I decided I wanted to have a child (which didn't happen until my late 30s!). Being pregnant was a wonderful experience for me. I didn't feel oppressed by the patriarchy in the least. ;-) Of course I realize that I am very lucky to be in the socio-economic class that I am and I had many advantages. I wish we lived in a world where all women (who desire to) get to experience a happy, healthy pregnancy free from want or hardship.

Dear God that drove me crazy when I was pregnant! I'd also like to warn you to not expect it to get any better once the baby's born. Total strangers would come up to me and demand to know whether or not I was breast feeding or would criticize everything from how I was carrying him to what he was wearing.

Oh! You know what else I also hated? When people would openly leer at my tummy for a while and then say smugly, "You're having a boy. I know because your carrying (low, high, big, etc.)" By the end of my pregnancy, I just started being really rude to people so they would leave me alone.

This post made me think of the song 'It's So Chic To Be Pregnant At Christmas' by Nancy White:

And they want to know exactly when I'm due.
I say, "Why do you care? Are you plannin' to be there?
I could use an extra labor coach or two."

Haha. People are honestly ridiculous. I think perhaps you should conduct a social experiment the next time someone asks you [it appears inevitable doesn't it?] and tell them you are actually NOT doing fine, the pregnancy is NOT okay, and see what they do. Or say. Or both. You could potentially get maybe a chocolate bar or something out of it, if not some really good laughs.

People's intentions may be that it's a nice gesture, just curiosity, etc.

But that doesn't change the fact that no one has the right to touch another person (deliberately) without their permission. It's invasive, it's rude and it implies public ownership of their body.

Nor does it change the fact that some questions are just too personal and invasive to ever be acceptable, especially toward a stranger. Asking a good friend when she's due or f she knows the sex is one thing, randomly asking a stranger if both her kids have the same father or if her baby was planned is another. Hell, asking a stranger the questions you'd ask a friend is inappropriate.

I think the general rule is, if something is pertaining to an internal organ, it's probably not appropriate to ask a stranger about it. And yes, this includes the uterus.

When I was pregnant I made a Tshirt that said "please don't touch my belly, and I won't touch yours" right over the bump. I kind of have boundary issues, and it amazed me that people feel like your body is suddenly public property, so they touch your stomach without giving it a second thought. I didn't even really feel pregnant until the very end, so it always caught me by surprise.

Luna commented at August 11, 2008 1:30 PM: "And finally, so help me god... 'Did you plan this?" pisses me off to no end. To a few people, I've said, 'Why? Does that matter?' They don't get it and say, "No. Just curious. So? Did you plan it?" This time, I'm planning to say, 'Are you seriously asking me about my sex life?'"

Either that or seriously wondering whether to offer congratulations (for a wanted pregnancy) or condolences (for an unwanted pregnancy), instead of just politely keeping quiet about that and talking about some other subject? I know I wouldn't want to offer my condolences to someone for achieving a wanted pregnancy or congratulate someone for suffering from an unwanted pregnancy, and I don't need to ask nosy questions to avoid doing those!

Black Thirteen - Yes many pregnant women talk about pregnancy a lot but that is generally ALL anybody EVER wants to talk to us about (this includes friends, relatives, co-workers, everyone we know). Oh, and when people start talking to pregnant women in the supermarket, it IS small talk to them. To the pregnant women it often feels like an intrusion.

I don't think people have evil intentions when they start talking to pregnant strangers but I do think that the fact that a woman is pregnant makes them feel entitled to do so. They just want to say something to acknowledge the pregnancy (for whatever reason) and satisfy their curiosity (that's when the personal questions start). I like the song quote that JasonM posted - that says it all.

I see little public scenes all the time that strike a chord with me (couples in love, cute litte kids, sweet old ladies who are like my great-grandmother, babies, whatever) but, though I might smile if that doesn't seem too weird, I'd never approach them because their lives are none of my business.

When I was pregnant with both my boys, I found that people were certainly more likely to strike up a conversation with me, and yes, it was always to do with my pregnancy. Usually the questions were the same: Is it your first? When are you due? Where are you having your baby? These questions I could cope with and felt people were being friendly if a tad nosy. I must state that noone ever touched my belly, thank goodness, but with my second, a guy dressed as Santa Claus at a play-group Christmas party, asked me to sit on his knee for a photo two days before I was due! EEEEEWWWWW! I declined by saying I would flatten him (meaning by my weight, not my fist, although that could have been warranted lol), even though I was still tiny but with a basket-ball belly. I really felt like being rude that time, but my training in politeness still over-ruled.

The really intrusive questions and eye-brow raising occurred when I was seen pregnant together with my husband, because you see, I am a very fair Anglo-Australian, and he is Chinese-Malaysian. People known and unknown to us would speculate on how our mixed-race children would look, often with the qualification that such children usually get the best of both!

My first boy was born quite olive-skinned with dark-brown eyes. When people would look at him in the pram then at me, they would ask outright, "Is the baby's father dark?"

When my second boy was born, he was very fair to begin with, and the paediatrician who examined him in the hospital remarked that I must have strong genes! Somehow I found his remark offensive. Was he implying something?

Then when I was out and about with both my boys, people would again remark at how dark they were compared to me, was their father dark, etc, etc. The difference, this time, was that they did it in front of my older son who was talking and growing very quickly in his ability to understand conversation.

My sons are now young men, and I still get funny looks when we are seen together. As they have matured, they have become more Caucasion looking re facial features and body size, but kept their dark colouring. Now they get the questions too. Where are you from? Why do you have a Chinese surname when you don't look Chinese? Are you Greek, Italian, Spanish? It doesn't seem to bother them, thank goodness, and they just answer politely that their Mum is of English-background and their Dad Chinese.

It is natural for people to be friendly and/or curious about others, but some seem to miss that fine line where a friendly remark becomes an intrusive, unwanted invasion of another's privacy. I had my children very young and being brought up to be "polite", was unable at the time to deflect the intrusive questions, or more to the point, tell people to mind their own bloody business! It seemed that my pregnancies not only opened the door to uninvited discussion of my condition, but it also enabled people to ask questions and speculate on notions of a racial nature that in other contexts would not be seen as appropriate.

Well, on the plus side, you actually are pregnant.
I am a cashier at a clothing store and a woman I had never seen or met before asked me if I was pregnant. I said no, because I'm not, and she replied "oh. I think pregnant."

I guess I'm just "fat?" I was appalled. But, back to the topic, I would feel very violated if someone were to touch my belly...if I was pregnant.

Intention is NOT all that matters. People may not be malicious when they invade pregnant women's space and ask intrusive, rude questions; I don't think anyone has claimed as much.
Most people are unwittingly invasive and thoughtless, but that doesn't mean they should be let off the hook. People should THINK about how their words and actions might be interpreted and how they impact the recipient.
My friend had a baby a couple months ago, and during her pregnancy she was really disturbed by the fact that all anyone wanted to talk about was her pregnancy. She felt as though SHE had been erased, and all anyone saw when looking at her was a baby-maker. People asked all sorts of personal questions that could have been really painful had her pregnancy not been smooth. It's like folks just make assumptions about pregnant women and don't treat them like individuals.
I've never even been pregnant, but I've been asked about my "pregnancy" by complete strangers on more than one occassion. I just have a big tummy, and I was exasperated by the crossed boundaries. People are so uncouth.

Re Emma: Well on the plus side you actually are pregnant...

Re SarahMC: I've never even been pregnant, but I've been asked about my "pregnancy" by complete strangers on more than one occasion. I just have a big tummy...

I hear you and can only acknowledge how demaeaning and invasive these experiences must have been for the two of you. But the irony is, complete strangers also deem themselves entitled to comment when you ARE in fact pregnant, but on the small side (in their view). Whatever you are, you are subjected to judgement. I had a conversation in a checkout line along these lines:

Person: Are you pregnant?

Me: Yes.

Person: How far along are you?

Me: 6 months.

Person: 6 months! Where are you putting it? You're very small. Is everything all right?

Me: As far as I know. My doctor has no concerns.

Person: Hmmm. You're still very small. Is it your first?

Me: Yes.

Person: Maybe that's why. You always take longer to show with the first.

By the time I reached my car, I was howling, not only with frustration that anyone dare ask such questions, but also with the fact that I had not been able to tell her that her questions were inappropriate, intrusive and rude. I couldn't be rude, but she could.

She also managed to sew the seeds of worry in me regarding the welfare of my growing baby and I expressed this to my obstetrician at my next visit, visibly upset. He asked me where all this was coming from, so I told him and he shook his head. He said that he often has to reassure his patients that their pregnancies are progressing normally as the result of migguided and unqualified comments from supposedly well-meaning people.

I gave birth to a healthy 7lb 6oz boy.

I loved the smiles and the happy stories or congratulations that people offered while I was pregnant, but I hated the vast majority of comments I got because they went something like this "Oh wow! You're huge! Are you having twins? No? Triplets?" Me gritting my teeth "Nope, only one. She/he is just big" Rude random stranger "Oh! Wow. But you're so big! How much weight have you put on?/Are you having a c-section/other rude unnecessary question". I also had a really bad second pregnancy (the fetus had severe and fatal defects) and when I got pregnant for my third child four months after we lost our second I heard a lot of "It's so soon! Is that healthy? Have you talked to your doctor? Are you really ready? Was this planned?" Holy shit, I wanted to slap people. No, after losing a wanted child to a horrible and severe defect, I decided to rush right into a new pregnancy without consulting with my doctor to see if it would be healthy for me or a fetus. Clearly, I'm just really dumb. The one thing that I will mention (and maybe I should write my own post, I don't know!) for all the people who say "They are just trying to be nice/It's not a big deal" that for some women ANY question about their pregnancy is a horrible reminder for them. I was 22 weeks when I found out my son had a condition incompatible with life and I carried him for five weeks before ending the pregnancy via early induction. For five weeks people would ask me "When are you due/what are you having/what are you going to name him" and I would smile and I would answer and then I would go to my car and cry. Even worse were the few people who would say things like "Aww!! You'll have a boy and a girl, how perfect". It was those times when I struggled not to break down and I afterward vowed that I would never ask a pregnant woman ANYTHING unless she said something first.

When I found out my best friend was pregnant, I knew exactly what to get her: I went out and bought her a shirt that said "touch the belly, lose a hand".

She hates anyone touching her belly area for any reason, never mind perfect strangers. I've never been pregnant, but I understand how annoying it can be to have strangers touch you, because I have a fairly large tattoo on my back. Its amazing how many people think its okay to touch me, without even asking first.

I think smiling at pregnant women is an instinctive reaction, something programmed in us.

However, asking invasive questions is just rude. If you're in a situation where the topic comes up, basic social skills should tell you if the woman wants to talk about it, and common sense should dictate your questions.

I work in a department store, and have spent the last few weeks mainly in our infants department (which I know nothing about), and can state quite confidently that if someone is pregnant and wants to share, they will bring it up into conversation. And occasionally share too personal details that only strengthen my plan to not get pregnant. I think having kids is amazing, just not for me. Pregnancy is a long experience, getting asked nosy questions must make it feel even longer.

I'm not pregnant, never have been, but I can relate to your story because people seem to react the same way to my tattoos. They just assume that since I decided to color my skin they have the right to not only ask me dozens of stupid and annoying questions, but even to touch me and to criticize/scold me.

I'm also really pregnant. 35 weeks. Luckily, I haven't had anyone other than a coworker try to touch my pregnant belly--and I think she learned her lesson. Maybe it's because I'm nearly 6' and generally look tired and and pissed-off (it's been a difficult, high-risk pregnancy) but I haven't had that many complete strangers ask me about my pregnancy. Although there are some. In the baby store, it's sort of expected, as it was when I was shopping for nursing bras in a lingerie store. Coworkers I've never spoken to before ask me about it, but that doesn't bother me.

I certainly haven't had anyone offer to help me carry anything. And I only get offered seats in the NYC subway about half the time. The worst was a few weeks ago, when I was standing on the C train platform next to a short, bald guy in his 30s or 40s. The train arrives, we were on either side of the open door, and I could see there was a seat on my side, one in from the door. I wait for everyone to disembark, then I get on the train--and the little bald guy whips around me and dives into the seat. Fucker. I was flabbergasted. So I said, "THANKS!" in my nastiest tone to him (while planning on standing over him and "accidentally" kicking his shins all the way to my stop.) But then the girl sitting next to the door jumped up and insisted I take her seat. Nice girl. So I got to sit next to the bald asshole for about four stops, and I glared at him the entire time. I thought about saying something more but it's not worth pissing off random strangers on the NYC subway, especially when you're slow and pregnant. You never know who hasn't taken their medication that day.

I don't get it, myself. I've always offered my seat to pregnant women, elderly people, or anyone who looked like they needed it more than I. I hold doors for people, and I always offer to help people with strollers up the subway steps. This is what I was taught by my parents--it's just good manners. Whatever happened to good manners? Good manners means helping people out when they need it, and it also means not asking them rude and intrusive questions. Like, "Are you planning to breastfeed?" I always say "No, euw!" just to upset them. (Yes, I am, but it's not anyone else's damn business.) I'm thinking about using: "No, because it will ruin the look of my breast implants," in future. What do you think?

I agree that touching the belly of a pregnant woman (without permission) is beyond the pale, as is asking about the circumstances of the pregnancy. However, one reason that pregnant women get so much solicitous attention is that we all had mothers, most of us love our mothers dearly, and we all realize what a difficult physical process being pregnant (extra weight, change in center of gravity, hormonal changes that sometimes manifest negatively, etc.) and giving birth is (pain and health risk). In short, public policy aside, just on a person-to-person basis, IT'S ABOUT RESPECT!

Yes, there are paradigm issues in the interaction between men and women but it is important to understand when people are trying to be repressive and when they are trying to be sweet -- and cut people slack when they are trying to be sweet.

I have a scar going from ear to ear over the top of my head. I've had a short hair cut since my teens(partly due to my male pattern baldness, military service, and rebellion against the Beatle-esq haircut my mother gave me). I am asked weekly, or more often, about my scar. Did i have a tumor, car accident, did I get it in Iraq? And so on. Often, people show me their wicked head scars.

My point is; don't feel bad. Pregnant women aren't specialized targets of scrutiny. Anybody who isn’t homogenous is open to scrutiny. I'll have this scar from 1 year- death. Ya'll will only have to worry about it while your showing. All also note that I didn't consent to any behavior that caused my scar.

I have tattoos as well. I don't have any sympathy if some one adorns their body with art where it can be seen by others and it gets upset at the comments. Your taking time and money to express yourself to everyone and getting bent out of shape when some expresses themselves to you. I think your lost. Hippocrates are over there---->

Re Paul:

"Anybody who isn't homogenous is open to scrutiny."

Nobody here is denying that.

However you are incorrect in your assertion that pregnant women aren't specialized targets of scrutiny. The above comments from women indicate that being pregnant suddenly makes them become publicly visible and available for comment and scrutiny in a way non-pregnant women are not.

Two of your comments are interesting in the way you deny the validity of the experiences of pregnant women by validating your own, and implying that pregnant women really have no cause to worry or complain:

1. "My point is; don't feel bad...Ya'll will only have to worry about it while your showing."
2. "All also note that I didn't consent to any behaviour which caused my scar."

Are pregnant women to understand from the first statement that because pregnancy is a temporary condition, it lessens the impact of intrusive and uninvited comments? However, your comment about not consenting to any causative behaviour on your part for your condition is downright offensive. Are you asserting that because a woman has engaged in sex resulting in pregnancy, she has contributed to or "chosen" her condition, and therefore has less of a right to complain about the insensitivities of others and their perceived right to ask highly personal questions?

You then draw a very shaky parallel between choosing to have tattoos and pregnancy:

"Your taking time and money to express yourself to everyone and getting bent out of shape when some expresses themselves to you."

Pregnancy is the natural process a woman's body goes through in order to bring another human being into this world. It is a highly individual, and personal experience. Yes, pregnancy is very visible, particularly in the late stages, but the bodily changes a woman undergoes cannot, in any way, be compared with a choice to adorn herself with bodily art, nor be seen as a chosen means of expressing herself to everyone.

No Paul, we women are not lost, nor are we hypocrites. (I think that's what you meant. I'm not quite sure due to the spelling.) We are a varied group of people, some of whom have come together on a website to discuss our very real and personal experiences. Nobody is here to say that her experience is any more important or valid than anyone else's, because the understanding is that everybody's experience will be different.

Your discussion of your own personal experiences is interesting and further illustrates the insensitivities of some people towards others, especially when they may be perceived as "different". However, I do not understand your motive in coming onto a feminist website, which is obviously going to be discussing issues pertinant to women, and go about putting women down. Your tactics are not even consistent. Firstly you endeavour to gain empathy through describing your scar and how it attracts unwarranted attention, akin to what women experience during pregnancy. Then later, you describe choosing to have tattoos and claim that if you take the time and money to decorate yourself in a way to attract comment, you have no reason to complain.

I will not claim the right to speak for others, so will only speak for myself. Both of my pregnancies were planned, so I guess in your eyes, self-inflicted, but that did not give people known and unknown to me the right to make comments and pass judgements. While I, and my partner, felt a sense of wonder at the miracle of my changing body and the fact that it was capable of nurturing a newly-forming human-being, this was an intensely private experience for the two of us, and was never an attempt at personal adornment or attention-seeking on my part.

You sound very bitter, and maybe have cause to be, but attempting to invalidate the experiences of another group of people in order to validate your own is not constructive for anyone, least of all yourself.

Wax Ghost;

I have had complete opposite experience with women and lifting at work. I work retail, have for the last 8 years. Time and time again I have seen groups of women stand around something that needed to be lifted while they wait for a man. Often, its me. It happened my last day at work, even. Little 110lbs guys are asked to lift heavy stuff by women who may be stronger than them; they certainly outweigh them.

I’m currently in a relationship, but I remember the delicate dance of eye glances when the bill arrives at dinners and other early dates. It is expected that men pay for women’s affection. I understand the fundamental ‘asker pays rule’, but in my experience women will initiate dates then still expect me to pay. These courtships don’t last long. I’ve had women co-workers brag about stringing several guys along, getting movies, dinner, booze while they have no intention of dating them. Its not respectful. One of the first things I’ve learned is not to buy women drinks at clubs. I’ve chatted women up, who ask me to buy them drink then they abruptly leave, or they boyfriends arrive. Young guys, let me mentor you, if your out there. Never buy a lady drinks if you’ve just met her, at the worst you‘ll take her home and sex her up and then you‘ll have charges filled against you because she was saying no “in her head.” (that one wasn’t me). At best she’ll leave after drinking a $7 red-headed slut (that was on 2nd Ave in Nashville). If you buy a pitcher of beer at a bar, then try and make it to your crew you will have to elbow aside women asking you for free beer (the marina, outside Lejeune).

And for reasons I can’t comprehend women things its totally fine to hit men. Women whack men in the arm, slap their faces, hands, its all game. I have never seen a man actually hit a woman. I’ve seen women with bruised faces around, but I’ve never seen a man hit a women, personally. But women hitting men is a different deal. I go bars and see women slapping men, women slapping women, drunken brawls outside of the club before the rest of her friends pour her in the cab. I’ve had men hit me, and it’s go time. But I know there is no go time if a women hits me, even if I crack her one back with equal force I’m likely to either get my ass kicked or sent to jail.

Two periods ago my girlfriend tried Midol for the first time; apparently it never worked for the women in her family so she had never tried it before; once she did she felt ‘fabulous’. Last period, Paul is kicking around the house, notices bloody toilet paper in the crapper, and my girlfriend is pissed off with me, but wants to cuddle, is achy and tired, complaining about being bloated; basically a walking before commercial waiting for medication (and hugs). I suggest she have a Midol; it worked wonders last month. What resulted was a huge hissy fit with remotes and fridge magnets thrown at me and me being beaten about the head and shoulders with an oven mitt. In no world I live in would I take an oven mitt and hit my girlfriend with it. I brought it up to the women at work and they all laughed like it was my fault. She hurts her knee, I can tell her to use ice and ibuprofen, but if she is cramping and tired I can’t suggest Midol without risking violence? Every women I’ve mentioned it to sanctioned the violence and said I deserved it. See above posts.
In this country men have to apply for the draft in order to receive monies and scholarships. Women have no such obligation. To me being a citizen is not just what benefits you receive, but the duties and obligations that are placed on you. The draft is not going away. But instead of advocating equal responsibility and citizenship the consensus among women seems to be, eh.

And most controversially lets look at childbirth. I have read interesting articles about women getting semen from men in order to get pregnant. One instance was a nurse was consoling a guy who lost his mother at the hospital; she gave him a blowjob with a condom and used the semen to get pregnant. Other cases involve women sleeping with drunk men, which would be called rape if a man did it, and getting pregnant. After all this the women file and get child support. The courts have decided that it is in the best interest of the child to have the father pay support, even if it was rape. In the end even neo-cons would allow a woman an abortion in the case of rape or incest, but a guy has to pay for 18 years if he is raped.

Further on abortion. I was raised to take responsibility for my actions. My mother taught me that if I ever got a woman pregnant I was to provide for my children, if we got married, or not. I was raised to be accountable. My mother would disown me if I abandoned my child. I can’t wrap my mind around feminist who support abortion. I’m not talking about rape, incest, condoms, plan B, medical conditions that affect the life of parent, or unborn. I’m discussing people who decide after they have consensual sex to abort the pregnancy.

I own a hand gun. I buy beer. I drive a car. I have sex. I’ve never shot anybody. I’ve never driven drunk and gotten into an accident. I’ve never gotten a woman pregnant. If you drink and drive your license if revoked, if you commit a crime with a gun you loose the right to bear arms. What’s the consequence of irresponsible sex?

For me the right to choose ends at coitus. To me, women insisting on a right to choose to carry a pregnancy to term should occur at coitus, with responsible family planning, condoms, birth control, Plan B. I take a Schrödinger's cat view on the womb. But to argue that some one can just decide, shit, I’m pregnant…. wait, I get a mulligan. Is life a pair of shoes, or TV to be returned because it didn’t match your plans for the house once you looked at it? Are women so irresponsible for their actions that we don’t expect them to have responsible sex?

If I ever shot some one, or hit them with a car, or got a woman pregnant, I would be held accountable. I have signed up for the draft. I have never hit a woman, nor raped one. I gather male privilege gets me promoted, and paid more than women. My opinions are given more weight.

Female privilege is a willing, self inflicted infantilzation. When I was younger and had less tact I would help the women standing around something to be lifted, and once I was done, I would flex and say “That’s why we get paid more.” They never complained, I never got in trouble.

I would be careful to note that no where did I advocate criminalizing abortion. I merely shared my sense of values. I have never had to have an abortion decision discussion... because my partners and I have been responsible. Let me put it this way. Women have come a long way in the last 100 years or so. Women gained the right to vote and made advances into the military. We have female Generals, Senators, governors, and CEO's, but the average woman can't be expected to have sex responsibly? It seems women feminists are attempting to gain the benefits that men have while shirking the responsibility. See the draft and abortion.

Take the phrases “be a lady“ & “be a gentleman.” Both require the subject to act with good manners and aplomb. Be a man; that is a different phrase all together. Sure, its probably outdated and perpetuate gender roles. But I don’t believe being a man is a bad thing. It tells the subject to be accountable for their actions, sacrifice, and be strong. Is there a female equivalent?

This entire thread is getting to unwieldy. First. I work nights, and I’m out of the house for about 13, 14 hours at a time, so I when I swing by I try and hit the high points. I acknowledge that women are not permitted to sign up for selective service, per the law…. but I haven’t heard of any feminists trying to change that.

A woman gives up her right to her BODY and many opportunities to behave autonomously and freely when she becomes pregnant. I would have to say, well don’t get pregnant. Sex results in children. That is the biological end result Anybody need comprehensive sex education to understand that? As for comprehensive sex education I have 2 points. 1) The interior of a condom package has the fundamentals of safe sex. 2) Parents ought not abdicate their responsibility to educate their children in safe sex to the schools, or the state.

My argument was that the institution of abortion is available to average women whom are pregnant. It may be better to say the situations are average. An extra-ordinary situation would be rape, incest, ect. I believe that if pregnancy results from consensual sex, then both partners need to be responsible.

Wax-ghost; why is it always the men and the rape? Can I find you a different drum?

Onevoice; given your list: CHALLENGE ME, CRITIQUE ME, REBUKE ME, SCOLD ME, INFORM ME, YELL AT ME, DEBATE ME… can I ask you to shut up just a little bit?

Onevoice;
I didn't know if "CHALLENGE ME, CRITIQUE ME, REBUKE ME, SCOLD ME, INFORM ME, YELL AT ME, DEBATE ME" was an inclusive or exclusive list. I was asking if shutting up, just a little bit, could be appended to the list. As too why its not about censorship. It seems like your fighting with Christ for room on the cross. Caps all over the place; prostrating yourself at the end of every post. Take it easy Onevoice.

I spend quite a bit of time on my posts. Doing laundry, tiding up the house, beer runs, and in the end a lot of things are posted while I'm typing, so I often have to backtrack. I'm not trying to skip over anything.

Llama; sorry I was trying to clarify my average point with "It may be better to say the situations are average." The majority of abortions (even D&E) are not the result of rape, incest, or life threatening conditions to the mother, or viability to the child. Most abortions are the result of consensual sex that results in a pregnancy. That is your average abortion situation. I'm sorry for not effectively communicating that.

As for sex education. Maybe I'm a victim of my own life, but I had sex education in 6, 8, and 9th grade. The kids in Degrassi Jr. high out to buy condoms. The kids your talking about seem like a segment of Jay walking on Leno.... where nobody watching TV would admit to being as ignorant as the people on TV.

Also, Llama it seems to be that you grant all of my points up post, i.e. sex causes children, condoms come with instructions etc, but follow up with ‘but’, and ‘in this imperfect world’

Why do you thing the government is the correct agency to step up and educate our children.. You seem to have distain for their current tract record on the topic. Most of them don't believe in evolution, and a majority of officeholders voted for the Iraqi invasion

Maybe part of my problem is that I have a pretty strict set of ethics. I take for granted that some one would be responsible for their actions. I would never tell an adult not to have sex, drive a car, day trade, own a hand gun. But if pregnancy, collision, bankruptcy, or a shooting result some one has to be responsible. In all the listed situations except abortion people would agree. Llama- do you agree that a drunk driver needs to be held accountable? My argument is that abortion is a female privilege that frees women (and in many cases men, although its not a males decision) from the responsibility of their actions.

I may be saying the same things over and over again, but its because to me they seem so fundamental, and yet you don't seem to get it. I find it baffling.

So, what do you think off my Schrödinger’s cat approach to the womb? Seriously. Condoms, the pill, intrauterine devices, morning after pills may prevent a pregnancy that could or could not occur. Depending on the source and methodology I've read that 30-60% percent of embryos either don't implant or abort naturally without the mother's knowledge. Abortions occur with the explicit knowledge that life IS being terminated. That’s why I have problems condoning it.
I have a scar going from ear to ear over the top of my head. I've had a short hair cut since my teens(partly due to my male pattern baldness, military service, and rebellion against the Beatle-esq haircut my mother gave me). I am asked weekly, or more often, about my scar. Did i have a tumor, car accident, did I get it in Iraq? And so on. Often, people show me their wicked head scars.

My point is; don't feel bad. Pregnant women aren't specialized targets of scrutiny. Anybody who isn’t homogenous is open to scrutiny. I'll have this scar from 1 year- death. Ya'll will only have to worry about it while your showing. All also note that I didn't consent to any behavior that caused my scar.

I have tattoos as well. I don't have any sympathy if some one adorns their body with art where it can be seen by others and it gets upset at the comments. Your taking time and money to express yourself to everyone and getting bent out of shape when some expresses themselves to you. I think your lost. Hippocrates are over there---->

I hire people for my company. I’ve got to go over their work history, check their application for errors, make sure that none of my conversation treads onto grounds that could get me sued later...etc.

My advices is to treat your hair as a part of your appearance. Most people would not show up to a job interview with wrinkles over their clothes, and odor of funk about them (although some do). I'd make sure its clean and orderly. I don't think color matters. Unless your roots are showing.... I guess that could show a lack of preparation and low standards. I guess.

This post has me thinking and remembering. I remember being on a fishing trip with my ex and her family and friends. Her little brother and a friend of his (both about 5) were in the back of a mini-van and friend said to little brother “I love you [little brother]. Friends dad told him not to say ‘love’ say “you’re my Buddy’. My mind was rocked. I had never seen male conditioning so poignantly. I thought that it was wrong for Friends dad to correct him so, but at the same time the correction was going to help him fit in his latter years, and I let it pass.

As for thinking. The same ex became my fiancée, and then my ex after she cheated on me whilst I was in Iraq. I would not say that my mother raised me to be a feminist, but the end result was I ended up having a elevated opinion of women. If you had ever seen the un-edited version of The 40 year Old Virgin you would agree that I put the pussy up on a pedestal. I would endeavor to teach your son that women are people. Just like men they have faults, and your average young love is fraught with disappointment. I may be embittered, but so much I hear about feminism is anti male and pro female. Ensure that your son knows that we’re all mere mortals. This probably seems melancholy, but I really had a sense that women are the fairer sex…. They’re not. There just people like all the rest.\

Alicat;

1: My point was I got this thick scar that people have been commenting on and trying to touch for the last 25+ years. Comparatively, I get more scrutiny than women who are pregnant.

2) Sorry my spell checker past on Hippocrates (ancient Greek doctor, has an oath) instead of Hypocrites. I'm centering on people with tattoos who complain when people comment on them. Women and the pregnant are not included, specifically.

And as to pregnant women choosing to get pregnant for the most part, yeah, I typed it. If you get pregnant your going to gain weight, may have morning sickness and food craving, and go through an intensive and probably pain filled birth. And people, most women it seems, are going to want to give you advice and touch your belly. I wouldn't say I'm bitter. I'm going with stoic. Find a grain of salt and take it.

I'm going to take a moment and ask what is it with women touching? Bellies, my scar, rubbing the stubble on my head.... Its like there is no private space if they want to touch something. Weird.