It would be more honest if the Essence article read "Average sized women"
rather than "Real Women".
Especially since thin women are not the ideal in the African American community. I recall hearing thin women with thin or "skinny" legs being teased in the neighborhoods I lived in.
Essence ought to know better and feminists ought to get behind not allowing a definition of so called "real women".
You are absolutely right.

I really really liked this. My sister is in a similar situation and really hates the phrase "real women have curves" because it actually ends up making her feel left out.
Yeah, maybe a Thin Acceptance Movement is a bit much, but I'm really glad you brought this up

QQ MOAR.

I think its ridiculous to judge anyone based on their size. All people are people regardless of their size.

I can't stand that "real women" bullshit either. ALL women are taught to hate the way they look, and ALL women have a tough time finding clothes that both fit and are stylish, so ALL women should be reminded that they aren't freaks because they don't look like models or don't fit into certain clothes. I mean, I've picked up size 0 pants in a store that were taller than I am (I'm 5'2"). I didn't walk out of the store thinking that my legs are abnormal because they're not 5 feet long (although I used to hate the fact that I'm short). You can't take those things personally. It's not you; it's the clothes.

I'm naturally thin as well (I'm a size 5 or so and this is the largest I've been) and I always hate when people say that I'm lucky to have this ideal body or whatever, cause to me it's not ideal, it's not the body I strive for (it has been incredibly difficult for me to even gain this much weight so that I'm not underweight)-- it's just what I've got.
The real women have curves thing is insulting, too. I've had super small boobs and barely any booty up until the last couple years and it always made me wonder, if real women have curves, what am I? A little girl? A boy? Genderless?

I'm so glad you brought this up. As a self conscious "average woman" I used to lash out and make fun of thin women like Keira Knightley. Just as people who bash curvaceous women need to be stopped, so do I need to be called on my feelings on thin women, feelings that are based in anti-feminist, sizist jealousy. My best friend is a size 2, and she is beautiful. As much as I want to hate her for being that size naturally, I know that her skinny jeans aren't what makes her awesome, and if I could where them, they wouldn't make me awesome either.

i think this "real women" thing goes along the lines of who's "black enough," who's "feminine enough," etc. i also object to comments like "real women have curves," because plenty of real women don't. the problem is with the media only portraying a very narrow category of women - thin, mostly white or white looking. what i'd like to see is not all the thin women replaced by fat women, but the diversity in shapes and sizes. men are definitely not portrayed homogenously in the media - they're are old, young, fit, this and fat men in sitcoms/movies/news. but there's only one narrow qualifier for women - no matter what ethnicity, what body type, try to get as thin and "white" as possible.

you bring up a great point. I wish we could more consistently frame the topic of body image with the idea that NO ONE has a right to judge and critique our bodies simply because we are female.

I always interpreted the "real women" thing as applying to women of all different sizes - because in fact women do come in all different sizes. But I see your point. Statements about "real women" should be accompanied by images of all different body types.

On a related note, it's also really irritating that skinniness is associated with fitness. When I was a personal trainer I met a lot of people who thought thin people don't need to work out, and I had a few thin clients who were afraid to do weight-bearing exercise. It was really hard to convince them that all women need weight-bearing exercise to build up bone density. I think they were afraid of acquiring any bulk at all, even muscles.

So just out of curiosity, do you read nerve?

Either way, yes I definitely agree with you.

"I realize that entering the healthy body image discussion with complaints about how tough it is to be thin is probably about on par with responding to women's rights issues with "but men are discriminated against too!""

Actually, I'm going to have disagree with your attempt to be humble here...

I don't think it is overall easiest to be thin. I think it's overall easiest to be average, with boobs. (At least, I know that my sister who was average size with boobs, never got made fun of for her looks. Me, who was always tall and skinny all over, including AA-cups, got hell through school, just for the way I looked. And we're white, not Latina or African-American (cultures in which "curvy" women are stereotypically preferred) I imagine obese women get made fun of at least as much as I did, but I think like in most things, it's probably "easiest" to have an average body-type.

Thanks to everyone for commenting!

@Rachel_in_WY: I've always seen "real women" accompanied with pictures of curvier women. The feministing post on Essence recently put model-sized women in opposition with "real women". And of course the slogan "real women have curves"...

@Ninapendamaishi: You're totally right, it probably is easiest to be average sized with boobs (although I'm sure many women with that body type probably are made fun of as well). And I've actually never heard of nerve before?

I'm so glad you wrote this. I occasionally manage to fit into a size 0 or 1 (when I can find these - nobody around where I live carries these sizes) and otherwise I get stuck shopping from the 'juniors' section. I don't have an eating disorder; I've just always been underweight. I think now I've finally reached the point where I don't look perpetually starved, but for a long while, people would comment on my skinniness all the time. It made me massively uncomfortable, since either people would congratulate me (which I found weird since it wasn't like I TRIED to be thin) or be rather disapproving (again weird, because it wasn't like I was doing anything wrong - it's just how my body was!).

Another thing nobody mentioned: the verbiage of 'the skinny bitch.'

I was thinking that some of the Dove ads featured a range of body types from thin to curvy, but I'm not sure they were actually using the words "real women." There was a billboard here with 7-8 women sitting on a bench together that was a part of that campaign, and two of them were pretty thin without the fake boobs that thin models often have (what my mom would call "angular"). But I agree that the Essence feature was making a contrast between "real women" and model-thin women.

I was thinking that some of the Dove ads featured a range of body types from thin to curvy, but I'm not sure they were actually using the words "real women."

They weren't. The Dove ads featured women who wore US sizes ranging from 6 - 12. That's hardly inclusive of the average American woman, who wears a size 14.

I run an eating disorders awareness and education site where we often discuss issues related to body image. I've often seen other similar sites use the phrase "real women" to describe curvy women, but when the authors are enlightened about the inherent discrimination in that phrase, they usually drop the terminology. I don't think the intent is to exclude thin women from the ranks of womanhood; it's more of a backlash to the unrealistic and myopic visions of thinness women today are expected to achieve.

I also think that cultural forces exist to turn women on each other rather than toward the real source of their oppression. It's easier to extend our hostilities horizontally than at vertically.

I'm developing a line of clothing that is based on a size 12 instead of the typical size 4. Does anyone have any good ideas on what words or phrases I can use to convey that it's designed for sizes 8-16 women? I don't want to use "plus size" or anything cheesy like that. I would like to use a term that is empowering but that doesn't diminish or insult women of smaller sizes. I'd thought about saying it's for "women of shape" or "women of magnitude" but neither one of those seems right either. How can we refer to size ranges in a way that is positive? Any thoughts?

ALL women are taught to hate the way they look, and ALL women have a tough time finding clothes that both fit and are stylish, so ALL women should be reminded that they aren't freaks because they don't look like models or don't fit into certain clothes.

Amen.

I'm a size 4 most often, but I've got D-cup boobs, round hips, and an ample butt. I dread the idea of pants shopping. When I go pants shopping, it almost makes me puke because nothing I put on is shaped like I am. The pants do not accomodate curves, they're cut to fit on a boyish frame. If I go up a size to try to compensate for the curvy parts, other parts of the pants are just way too big.

And at the same time, I stopped seeing a trainer at the gym because she kept yelling at me for not dropping 20 pounds. I kept telling her I don't want to lose 20 pounds, I want to build muscle and get stronger. I like my curves, I just want some freakin' clothes that fit them.

"The pants do not accomodate curves, they're cut to fit on a boyish frame."

/Boyish frame/?? That's the exact kind of labeling we're complaining about in this thread...

I have the opposite problem as you, when it comes to finding clothes (I think most of them are made for people with fuller boobs and rounder butts" and /I/ would not consider myself "boyish"...

You're basically using the same terminology as the "real women" people...

I apologize, a.k.a. Ninapendamaishi, you're absolutely right. These phrases are all so common it's easy to just use one without analyzing it. That one comes up a lot when discussing problems with the modeling industry.

huh. this thread raises a lot of interesting questions...

I am also one of those "blessed" with a naturally thin frame. I have no idea what size I am - I hate the way the sizing system works for women's clothing. It's never consistent! But that's a whole 'nother issue. I'm 117 and 5'8" and I'm trying to gain a little weight. I've been steadily loosing it ever since I cut soda, fast food, and processed crap out of my diet, much to my chagrin. I have no boobs and hips like woah. All of these combine to make finding clothes that fit exceedingly difficult. Add to that the fact that I'm usually shopping in the men's section and it becomes a true miracle when my clothes fit.

I was never really offended by the "real women have curves" phrase. I don't know why that might be... perhaps because I already don't fit so much of what "real women" are supposed to be that a little body acceptance slogan just flies over my head.

We are all conditioned to be self-critical, but it occurs to me that I never really vocalized any criticisms about my own body until I was around people who would complain about their bodies and then tell me they wished they were as thin as me. It's funny - I became self-critical in opposition to others' self-criticism.

I think for the most part, though, I get a pass for being butch/androgynous. I *do* look boyish, so I guess my body type fits with that idea. Sure I get the occasional "I hate you, you're so lucky", but it's actually not that often that people comment on my size.

On the up side, when my friends complain about having too much fat on some part of their body, I can often demonstrate that fat is, in fact, supposed to collect there! If I have it, then you should *definitely* have it!

artdyke,

I guess my experience is different than yours.

Because why I was never a "girly girl" (and never wanted to be), while I value strength, independence, and a certain amount of scruffiness, I never /wanted/ to be thought of as "boyish" or "manly". It's always other people who've labeled me that way, and very often meant it as an insult.

If we're going to acknowledge that gender exists as real concepts for many people, I would rather we at least have a /choice/ as to our gender expression...

artdyke, I guess the difference for me is that the "real woman" stuff comes from feminists, and others who are rejecting imposed notions of what the female body should look like. I'm used to tuning out the bullshit about what women should look like or do when it's rooted in sexism, but it hits me harder when it comes from sources that should know better.

Everyone has made a lot of great comments about how the 'real woman' ideal can be damaging whenever it's narrowed down to just one body type.

But I haven't seen any discussion about how to react, as a thin woman who hears "you are so skinny!" or as a curvy women who hears "I would kill for your boobs."

I feel like these kind of comments are passed around fairly often, and the person in question usually just feels flustered and unsure of what to say- just like Mariella. A good answer for this seems to be moving this conversation into real life- answering the women who compliment your frame by explaining, sincerely, that all women, themselves included, are beautiful. The problem is not having the wrong body, but not loving the body you have.

Men, too, have to deal with negative reactions to being too skinny.

i think you're right, jessica, that that's an important conversation to have. but the people saying this to me are always strangers - sales people, other customers in stores, other students at random campus locations...

i don't think it's particularly appropriate to respond that way when someone like that just says "you're so skinny" because it's really making a lot of assumptions about them - that they have a negative body image or think being underweight is healthy etc.

i don't know what the best thing to do is, so i just say "oh" and smile, because it's my way of showing that i know they're trying to be nice without actually accepting it as a compliment.

"I'm developing a line of clothing that is based on a size 12 instead of the typical size 4. Does anyone have any good ideas on what words or phrases I can use to convey that it's designed for sizes 8-16 women?"

Clarissa Pinkola Estes uses the term "women of size", which I thought had a nice ring to it even though I'm small and thin.

"Curvy women" could work. "Curvy girl" would introduce an element of assonance, but I know it'd get mixed reactions -- some women use "girl" in a playful fashion, others think it's infantilizing.

I've also heard some curvy women refer to themselves simply as "big girls".

Mariella,

Thank you so much for this wonderful post. I know it's several days old, but I was perusing the archives and was first drawn to your title. Reading your post, I felt the need to respond.

I am not a naturally thin woman. I am a recovering anoretic who has spent the majority of my life forcing myself thin. So I will (begrudgingly) admit that once I went into recovery and was very bitter about "getting fat" (nice way of saying "getting healthy"), I used to make crass comments about naturally thin women. Never to their faces, because I am not a mean person, but mostly in my head.

But I always have to learn things the hard way.

Last year I became incredibly ill and could not keep weight on me. I dropped to a dangerously low weight before being diagnosed with Celiac disease and subsequently going gluten-free. Once I changed my diet, I gained some weight back to where I'm on the thinner side, but not as thin as you are. Ever since, I have been told "how nice it must be" to be skinny and how I'm not a "real woman" because I'm thin.

I can see it from the other side now. And it's terrible that people say such things. Because even though mine is due to illness followed by a restricted diet, and therefore not inherently natural, it is not something I have much of a choice in now. I resent being told that I am not "womanly" because I am so thin. I resent the implication that my life much be so much easier now. Trust me, it's quite the opposite.

This is my long-winded way of saying that I'm sorry I was once one of those people who made those comments. It would be easy to blame my disordered thinking, but I would like to believe I'm more enlightened than that.

And kudos to you for starting a dialogue on this. It's not an easy subject, to be sure.

(Also, I'd like to note that not all Celiacs are skinny because of the gluten-free diet. It just so happens that I am thin now no matter what I do. But that is not always the case.)

THANK YOU!

This is the best post I've read on the community blogs yet.

I am "lucky" enough to have the stereotypically "perfect" body type: I'm 6' tall, 125lbs, and my measurements are 36-24-36. But I don't think I'm lucky at all.

Women (friends and complete strangers alike) come up to me and say things like, "I hate you, you're so pretty!" or "you bitch, how do you stay so thin?" Usually I giggle nervously - is that supposed to be a compliment or an attack? I get hit on by creepy guys more than most of my friends - again, is that supposed to be a compliment? Should I be happy that my particular body type is everyone's favorite to glamorize and revile?

I've gotten to the point that I'm okay with how I look, and I actually like my body. But some days I really wish I could be a "real woman" too.

You just cannot win either way! As a teenager, I was very skinny, and my classmates joked about it a lot. While they would often tease me about my "boyish" frame, I would also get comments about how I lucky I am to be so naturally thin. I tried and failed to gain weight, and would literally cry and pray to God every night, asking to be granted hips and breasts.

By the end of college, I gained a fair amount of weight, and suddenly had what my boyfriend called a “womanly” body. I stopped getting the “I hate you! You are so skinny!” comments and started getting diet tips. I was under the impression that I looked fine, but others felt differently. My entire perception of myself shifted. First, I was too skinny, but now I am apparently too large. There must have been a brief period in between the two stages that I looked fine. I just cannot figure out when that was. I am unable to embrace my larger body now, and I will admit that I have been trying to slim down ever since gaining the weight that I so desperately wanted when I was a teenager.

I know this is going to get me in trouble, but realize that I am only basing this off my personal experience. As troubled as I was by my skinny body when I was younger, it does not compare to the pain I feel when someone says something about my weight now. There just is not the same sort of stigma attached to being too thin that there is with being too large. It was much easier, although extremely annoying, to be lambasted for being too “perfect.” Being labeled “real” or “curvy” does not make it any easier for me personally. If anything, it is down right patronizing.

Of course, I am not saying that everyone who is thin has it much easier, but I was treated much better as a skinny woman. Everyone’s experience is different. I have just come to realize that no matter what size or shape you are, you are going to be unfairly judged.