You shouldn't feel at all ridiculous. He violated you and your friend is treating it like it's no big deal. It's not just "cheating." He touched you in a sexual way even when you tried to make him stop. You trusted him enough to sleep in a bed with him, and he abused that. Shelly is probably trying to rationalize it because she loves him. Ask her how she thinks he'll act if one day he wants to have sex and she doesn't.

He's an asshole, and you're very much within your rights to be upset, particularly since your friend is trying to convince you that what he did was okay. If you can get him in trouble for the alcohol without getting yourself in trouble, go ahead.

Don't feel ridiculous. I think it's ridiculous that our friend is willing to overlook the fact that her wonderful boyfriend was fondling another woman while she was passed out. I think this kind of stuff happens a lot and people usually don't say anything. I think you're pretty brave to have confronted them.

You have no reason to feel ridiculous. Being asleep (or being drunk or even passed out for that matter) is not an excuse for someone who is "curious" to violate you. If you feel violated, then you were. I hope one day that your friend can realize what you are going through. If not, the feministing community is always here!

You have no reason to feel ridiculous. Being asleep (or being drunk or even passed out for that matter) is not an excuse for someone who is "curious" to violate you. If you feel violated, then you were. I hope one day that your friend can realize what you are going through. If not, the feministing community is always here!

I just wanted to tell you that your story is very close to my own. I've had the same feelings you've got, feeling like I'm making a big deal when other women survive so much more, all of that. Its difficult because we don't exactly have a category, and it's rare that we'll hear stories similar to our own.

I just wanted to reach out and let you know you're not alone. I thought it was fucked too, when it happened to me.

Hmmmmmm!

One, you claim all 3 of your were drinking heavily and slept together in the same bed but that you (or both you and your female friend) aren't supposed to be drinking given the legal drinking age and he provided the booze.

Two, you claim he "felt you up" and you described all these pyschological, emotional, reactions you felt in response, including the things you did afterwards.

My feed-back, if I'm correct in the above, you and your girlfriend should go to jail for the rest of your life (without parole) for breakng the drinking laws. Her boyfriend (and your former male friend) should be put to death (via the gas chamber) for buying your drinks when he knew it was illegal and for feeling you up (regardless of whether you were drunk or sleep, because he agreed to be in a monogamous relationship versus open-relationship with another woman).

Like you said: "No matter how small or how big what he did was, it still wasn't right and he needs to have consequences for it." Well I agree. But then why let yourself off the hook for your illegal drinking, let your female friend off the hook for her illegal drinking, and punish him so midly -- especially since you want to psychologicall, emotionally, and physically give this "violated" meaning to the incident:) All three of you "violated" a legal and moral laws of some sort and should pay the consquences, and for the rest of your life, for not one of you should be permitted to have made a human mistake, no matter what any mitigating circumstances or excuses. If this punishment sounds absurd or harsh, then perhaps you'll be a tad bit more redeemptive (forgiving) of yourself for drinking, for your female friend drinking, and for her drunken friend providing those drinks, for his feeling you up (versus RAPING YOU), for his denial it once busted, and for his girlfrien (and your female friend) forgiving him because love makes us do silly shit like that when a loveone does something mildly wrong. Remember, YOU put your stuff out there in public, so if what I wrote disturbs then, then hey, consider this opinion punishment for your having violated the rules of privacy:)

P.S. In retrospect, you should have not been drinking unless it was legal (since you insist all human beings must obey the laws whether technical or moral). Two, you should have gotten up at the very minute he felt you up or in the morning and spoken to him one-on-one without your female friend present, and made it clear to him you felt "uncomfortable" vs violated with him "feeling you up" and for "messing with another woman" when he was in a monogamous relationship -- which, of course, assumes you'd had no knowlege of his girlfriend having cheated on him ... which raises the question, what should her punishment be for doing that, capital punishment too .... hmmmmm! Funny how all three of your are guilty of so many wrongs but let yourselves off the hook, consequence wise, but are quick to wanna throw the book at another person:) It is wonderful how morality and punishment are so self-serving:) I wonder what you would have done if it had been your girlfriend "feeling you up" (acting out some repressed bi-curious desires) cuz of the booze:)

First of all, I want to thank Nattles Thing, Nyx, Emily, and Alexandra for their support. You're great and I needed to hear what you said. Thank you.

One, you claim all 3 of your were drinking heavily
Don't tell me what I "claimed". She and I were drinking heavily. He did not. I had more liquor than him and I'm less than half his weight and I was still coherent. He was not drunk and admitted as much.

Well I agree. But then why let yourself off the hook for your illegal drinking, let your female friend off the hook for her illegal drinking.
There's a difference between doing something morally wrong and doing something legally wrong. Yes, I broke a law. It's not the first time, it won't be the last time. I personally do not feel there is anything morally wrong with drinking at age 18. I do feel there is something morally wrong with copping a feel on a sleeping person, though it probably isn't a serious legal offense (or prosecutable anyway) which is why I dealt with it personally. I could understand the hypocrisy you're seeing if I wrote an entire entry about how evil he is for breaking the law, but that's not what I did.

All three of you "violated" a legal and moral laws of some sort and should pay the consquences, and for the rest of your life, for not one of you should be permitted to have made a human mistake, no matter what any mitigating circumstances or excuses.
Um. How is he paying for what he did for the rest of his life? Where did I say that he should? I didn't report him to the police, I simply have refused to be friends with him anymore and informed his girlfriend of his actions.

f this punishment sounds absurd or harsh, then perhaps you'll be a tad bit more redeemptive (forgiving) of yourself for drinking, for your female friend drinking, and for her drunken friend providing those drinks, for his feeling you up (versus RAPING YOU), for his denial it once busted, and for his girlfrien (and your female friend) forgiving him because love makes us do silly shit like that when a loveone does something mildly wrong.
Were YOU drunk when you posted this? Just curious.

Remember, YOU put your stuff out there in public, so if what I wrote disturbs then, then hey, consider this opinion punishment for your having violated the rules of privacy:)
You're punishing me for posting on an internet blog? Uh, pardon me, but I don't want to be part of your domination fantasies.

Hmmmmmm!

"There's a difference between doing something morally wrong and doing something legally wrong. Yes, I broke a law. It's not the first time, it won't be the last time. I personally do not feel there is anything morally wrong with drinking at age 18. I do feel there is something morally wrong with copping a feel on a sleeping person, though it probably isn't a serious legal offense (or prosecutable anyway) which is why I dealt with it personally. I could understand the hypocrisy you're seeing if I wrote an entire entry about how evil he is for breaking the law, but that's not what I did."

No, I don't have any "domination fantasies" about you. But if that self-rationalization makes you feel good about the above self-serving hypocrasy then so be it. Perhaps your male friend thinks in a self-serving way like you in that he doesn't feel there is anything wrong with feeling you up. My point being -- YOU let yourself off the hook while you want to privately and publicly punish him. Yes, I saw the "so called supportive comments" of the others. My response, they too are FOS. They should have helped you to grow up, mature, and realize you inflated a mild mistake on your male friend's part, his girlfriend, and yours. YOU breaking the law was more grave an offense than his feeling you up. But you admit, you want to cherry-pick which legal and non-legal behaviors in the world you find excuseable and which you find in-excusable ... as long as it serves YOUR SELF INTERESTS:)

Again, my opinion, grow up, mature, go tell your two friends you're sorry for blowing the incident out of proportion, and let it never happend again between any of you ... and strive to become life long meaningful friends who set boundaries but also forgive each other ... it's called LOVE. This is must my opinion. Ignore it if it doesn't validate that self-serving-mentality you clearly confess too .... breaking the law when it suits you but wanting to punish others when it suits you. What was your PUNISHMENT for illegal drinking ... regardless of your disagreement with the law.

P.S. In retrospect, you should have not been drinking unless it was legal (since you insist all human beings must obey the laws whether technical or moral).
Um, no, I don't. Don't put words in my mouth.

Two, you should have gotten up at the very minute he felt you up
Hindsight is always 20/20.

or in the morning and spoken to him one-on-one without your female friend present, and made it clear to him you felt "uncomfortable" vs violated with him "feeling you up" and for "messing with another woman" when he was in a monogamous relationship
It's really not your place to tell me how I should have dealt with the situation. I dealt with it in the way I felt most appropriate. I was not comfortable discussing it with him.

-- which, of course, assumes you'd had no knowlege of his girlfriend having cheated on him ... which raises the question, what should her punishment be for doing that, capital punishment too .... hmmmmm!
Seriously, what the fuck kind of reading glasses are you wearing that "I told his girlfriend" looks like "HE NEEDS TO BE PUT TO DEATH!!!"? Where are you getting this bullshit? Besides that, it's really not my place to put consequences on her, it's her boyfriend's (as far as their relationship goes). If he wanted to break up with her I certainly wouldn't try to say he was in the wrong simply because I'm her friend.

Funny how all three of your are guilty of so many wrongs but let yourselves off the hook, consequence wise, but are quick to wanna throw the book at another person:)
So many wrong doings? Wow. You must know us terribly well to be making this judgement.

I wonder what you would have done if it had been your girlfriend "feeling you up" (acting out some repressed bi-curious desires) cuz of the booze:)
Well, first of all, she wouldn't have grabbed my ass like that. However, if she rubbed my back? I wouldn't have cared. We just have that kind of relationship. That doesn't mean I'm okay with everyone else in the world touching me that way though. Look at it this way: You most likely let your significant other fuck you. That doesn't mean there's an open invitation to everyone else to do the same though.

P.S. Is there a reason your post is absolutely peppered with text smilies? Do you feel they drive your point home?

OneVoice, all other ridiculousness aside, and even if one allows that drinking alcohol underage is "wrong" (which I don't think it is at age 18, and I think most reasonable people would agree), you have a rather glaring hole in your argument that these "crimes" are similar. An individual drinking alcohol (in and of itself...this does not encompass dumb decisions one might make while drinking) affects directly only the life/body/experiences of the one consuming it -- as opposed to the act of feeling up the body of a sleeping person.

Hmmmmmm!
That isn't nearly as cute as you think it is.

No, I don't have any "domination fantasies" about you
Hey, you're the one who was talking about punishing me and putting me in my place.

But if that self-rationalization makes you feel good about the above self-serving hypocrasy then so be it.
Until you can spell hypocrisy, I'm not going to take you terribly seriously.

My point being -- YOU let yourself off the hook while you want to privately and publicly punish him.
MY ACTIONS DID NOT VIOLATE ANYONE ELSE. How do you not see the difference? Yes, I broke the law, but I did not infringe on anyone else's rights. If I went out for a joy ride while wasted I could see your point, but that's not what happened.

YOU breaking the law was more grave an offense than his feeling you up.
Know what's funny? In many developed countries it's perfectly legal to drink at 18. It's not, however, legal to grope people against their will in any of them.

But you admit, you want to cherry-pick which legal and non-legal behaviors in the world you find excuseable and which you find in-excusable ... as long as it serves YOUR SELF INTERESTS:)
If you have a problem with under-aged drinking, fine. However, it's hardly hypocritical to call someone else on their bad behavior just because you yourself are not perfect.

Again, my opinion, grow up, mature, go tell your two friends you're sorry for blowing the incident out of proportion, and let it never happend again between any of you ... and strive to become life long meaningful friends who set boundaries but also forgive each other ... it's called LOVE.
Laughing my ass off here. If he loved me he would have had more respect for me. I can forgive a lot, but I can't forgive someone treating me like their own personal grope-doll because I'm incapacitated.

This is must my opinion. Ignore it if it doesn't validate that self-serving-mentality you clearly confess too
Funny, I don't remember confessing to that.

Self-serving? What do I possibly have to gain by losing a friend and feeling betrayed?

.... breaking the law when it suits you but wanting to punish others when it suits you. What was your PUNISHMENT for illegal drinking ... regardless of your disagreement with the law.
As a friend, he knew I'm not okay with people touching me like that. He has seen me react negatively to men doing similar things to me before. It doesn't have all that much to do with legality, it's about him not respecting my feelings or my body. He wanted to grab my ass and waited 'till I wasn't conscious to do it. If it was really just a crazy, ill-thought out mistake he would have came on to me while I was awake.

SLK,

I don't intend or wish to make light of the incident you shared. I agree, his "feeling you up" while drink or not drunk was wrong -- whether in the legal sense or non-consensual moral sense.

However, YOU also were wrong in your behaviors. This does not mitigate or excuse his behavior. But his behavior does not excuse yours.

In short, he needs to never again do such behavior to you or any female. I'm sure you and I can agree on that. But YOU also must recognize your own behaviors -- those which are illegal, immoral, hypocritical, and self-serving. You want to distinquish between your illegal drink and his perhaps non-illegal non-consensual feeling you up. Well you can do that, for the sake of blogging clarity. But to then go further and inflate his behavior as a "violation" suggest you want to pyschologically, emotionally, and publicly punish him even more. Why? You already punished him, punished his girlfriend, but then let yourself off the hook. You were judge, jury, and excusioner in a self-serving, hypocritcal, way. I don't read any redemption in what you wrong. But I do see self-serving-immaturity, where you as a young adult are going to cherry pick whatever laws and morales you like to break for yourself but then punish others if they should also cherry pick which ones they want to break, especially if such impact YOU.

OneVoice, all other ridiculousness aside, and even if one allows that drinking alcohol underage is "wrong" (which I don't think it is at age 18, and I think most reasonable people would agree), you have a rather glaring hole in your argument that these "crimes" are similar. An individual drinking alcohol (in and of itself...this does not encompass dumb decisions one might make while drinking) affects directly only the life/body/experiences of the one consuming it -- as opposed to the act of feeling up the body of a sleeping person.
Thank you, exactly!

I drank in a private home, I did not drive, I did not risk hurting anyone (expect perhaps myself). What he did affected another person.

"It's really not your place to tell me how I should have dealt with the situation. I dealt with it in the way I felt most appropriate. I was not comfortable discussing it with him."

Oh no, you didn't say this, lol. You got on this public space, put this incident out there, and you claim I had not "public right" to comment about what I think you should have done. Sure, I feel you. In other words, as long as "I tell you want you want to hear, affirm what you did" then you welcome my feed-back. Girlfriend, you truly are self-rationalzing, self-serving, self-defensive, lol.

My suggestion, in the future, please put a DISCLAIMER ABOVE YOUR POSTS: If you don't tell me what I want to hear, or disagree with me in part or whole, I don't want your feed-back or opinion, lol! I think that will work:)

"It's really not your place to tell me how I should have dealt with the situation. I dealt with it in the way I felt most appropriate. I was not comfortable discussing it with him."

Oh no, you didn't say this, lol. You got on this public space, put this incident out there, and you claim I had not "public right" to comment about what I think you should have done. Sure, I feel you. In other words, as long as "I tell you want you want to hear, affirm what you did" then you welcome my feed-back. Girlfriend, you truly are self-rationalzing, self-serving, self-defensive, lol.

My suggestion, in the future, please put a DISCLAIMER ABOVE YOUR POSTS: If you don't tell me what I want to hear, or disagree with me in part or whole, I don't want your feed-back or opinion, lol! I think that will work:)

Oh no, you didn't say this, lol. You got on this public space, put this incident out there, and you claim I had not "public right" to comment about what I think you should have done.
Stop using quotation marks as if you're citing something I said. I didn't say shit about your "public right". Of course you have the RIGHT to. I just don't think it's polite to march in and tell me I should have done blah, blah, and blah as if your way is the only appropriate response.

Sure, I feel you. In other words, as long as "I tell you want you want to hear, affirm what you did" then you welcome my feed-back.
If you want to disagree with me using Earth logic and leave a comment that's not riddled with typos, I'll be more receptive.

KG,

The drinking was a crime. I don't know whether the guy feeling her up was a crime. It might be. What he did and what she did was not similar. They were distinct, different, behaviors. My argument was simple. He was wrong. She was wrong. All three were wrong. Excusing her drinking, their drinking, which we know is illegal, simply lets her off the look, to focus exclusively on his wrong and punishing him. What did she learn -- nothing, except it is okay to punish others for doing wrong but not be accountable herself if she did a wrong. If she believes drinking at age 18 should be permitted then, yes, break the law -- and also seek to organize with others to lower the drinking age. But recognize SHE did something wrong too. It does not excuse his behavior. Nor did I equate their wrongs to be comparable or equal. This is why in my silly exaggeration, I gave her and her female friend a life prison sentence and the guy the death penalty -- for his buying drinks, a non-consensual sexual act, and breaching his supposed monogamous contract:)

But, no, girlfriend wants to punish him ONLY and let herself off the hook. She even wants to inflate his non-consensual behavior to a quasi-rape level of offense, in using the word VIOLATED her. Her sense of morality, justice, feminism speaks to self-serving hypocrasy with a twist of male-bashing eogism ... because she does not hold herself accountable for her actions. Why does she get to break the law because she doesn't agree with it, because she wants to drink, and thus that serves her self-interest. But then this guy does not also get to self-rationalize getting his self-interest met, such as feeling her up when he is tipsy or drunk or not drunk.

SLK needs to go to jail for life, lol. Her girlfriend needs to go to jail for life too, and maybe do hard-labor for cheating on her boyfriend, lol. And the boyfriend needs to be put to death in the gas chamber, lol. Now, just like SLK, I'm played the role of judge, jury, and executioner ... in cyberspace, of course, based on my values and self-serving interests.

But to then go further and inflate his behavior as a "violation" suggest you want to pyschologically, emotionally, and publicly punish him even more. Why? You already punished him, punished his girlfriend, but then let yourself off the hook.
You really aren't making sense.

Inflated his behavior as a violation? I felt violated! Maybe you would not have in the same situation, but everyone has their own perspective.

You say I want to punish him when I've already punished him enough. What does that even mean? I'm not trying to punish him further at all (nor did I say anywhere that I wanted to)! I told his girlfriend because she deserved to know, I'm not going to have any further contact with him because I can't trust him, and I informed a friend of mine who works at his school so if something like this ever comes up in the future, someone knows he has done it before. In all, three people (other than him) know about the situation. This is hardly a public humiliation. If I was really just out to get him I wouldn't have changed their names in my post and would have told everyone we know about what happened.

I did not punish his girlfriend in any way. I told her because I knew she would have wanted to know, not to hurt her. She was glad I was open with her.

You were judge, jury, and excusioner in a self-serving, hypocritcal, way.
Executioner? Someone is being a bit melodramatic. I did not destroy his life, I simply don't want to see him again and felt his girlfriend had a right to know about what went on!

You still haven't told me what I'm supposedly getting out of all this. Self-serving? How on Earth in breaking up my trio of friends going to make me feel good?

I don't read any redemption in what you wrong.
You bet your ass you don't. My actions didn't hurt anyone!

But I do see self-serving-immaturity, where you as a young adult are going to cherry pick whatever laws and morales you like to break for yourself but then punish others if they should also cherry pick which ones they want to break, especially if such impact YOU.
That's exactly it. His choice impacted me. My choice impacted NO ONE.

But, no, girlfriend wants to punish him ONLY and let herself off the hook.
HOW DID I PUNISH HIM? I told his girlfriend because I thought she needed to know! I stopped being his friend because I just don't trust him anymore!

Where did I say I was pressing charges or trying to ruin his life?

She even wants to inflate his non-consensual behavior to a quasi-rape level of offense, in using the word VIOLATED her.
Get a fucking dictionary. Violation is not the same thing as rape. You can feel violated when someone breaks into your house, you can feel violated if someone sends a virus to your computer, you can feel violated if someone listens in a phone call.

Please, everyone, just ignore OneVoice. SLK, it's okay, you shouldn't feel ridiculous about it at all and you CERTAINLY aren't obligated to defend yourself against OneVoice's laughable-if-they-weren't-so-pitiful "concerns."

P.S. On the topic of you "punishing" him: in a perfect world, you'd be able to "get him" on sexual misconduct or something akin to it, since that is what he did.

"Yes, I broke the law, but I did not infringe on anyone else's rights."

Tell that to the judge when he finds you guilty of break the law and puts you away for life.

I guess now I can smoke crack in my house, lol, because it doesn't infringe upon anyone else's rights -- sure I can, lol.

SLK, I'm not some law-and-order fanatic or Republican, lol. I found it absurd that military persons could not drink because they were age 18 (under 21) but yet old enough to serve and die for their country. So I know many laws (and norms and values) can be unreasonable, irrational, and serve no real public interest. I simply want you to admit two things -- and don't let yourself off the hook:

1. You were illegally drinking, this breached the law, and you're never, ever, going to do it again ... because drinking can and does impair or inhibit one's judgment at any age ... and if you don't like the law then you'll join a young movement and seek to change it.

2. You over-inflated his "feeling you up" to be a quasi-rape experience, which is was not, and should have simply been firm with him about not doing such again, whether drunk, tipsy, or sober ... or you will prosecute him.

3. You will try to be friends with your girlfriend and him, but making sure all of you know each other's boundaries, and the friendship will be terminated if ever breached again in a non-consexual sexual manner ... be it a kiss, feeling up, and so forth.

Or, 4 ... you can continue to seek empathy and sympathy on this site, bash the guy, and make yourself feel good ... cuz the guilt you're feeling is seeping through your pores.

"If you want to disagree with me using Earth logic and leave a comment that's not riddled with typos, I'll be more receptive."

I'm sorry. You want me to spell check. I can agree to do that, if you're going to be pendantic. I confess, I'm not familar with this mode of reasoning, logic, called "Earth Logic". But I am familar with fallacies of logic and rhetoric, critical thinking, though I'm not a philo major or practitioner.

What I do hope, is you don't think I view what happened to you lightly or am letting this guy off the hook, defending or excusing his actions. If anything I'm writing suggest or infers such, then I apologize. His shit was 100% wrong! I'm just in disagreement with your level of punishment, offline and here online, and how you view your own behavior. Also, no way do I wish to suggest or infer my 20/20 hindsight or opinions are the only way you could have dealt with this incident, before the fact or after the fact. I was not in your shoes, now and then. I am just sharing my opinion, just like all the others posting here -- noting you seem to have no problem with those opinions that 100% affirm yours, then and now. Perhaps all of you are rightly thinking, perhaps its feminist-group-think, perhaps my being male (though I doubt it) make me less insightful and empathetic.

Perhaps I should be elected VP instead of Palin that only pretend to affirm, empower, and support 151 million American or 3.5 Billion women world wide. Sorry, that was a digression, lol.

SLK, what he did to you was definitely a violation. I'd even call it sexual assault.
I applaud you for telling your friend about it and confronting him.
I'm sorry your friend is still with him, because this can't help but drive a wedge between you, which sucks. Hopefully, she'll see sense and dump him.
And speaking of people who suck -- OneTroll, take your victim blaming, slut shaming ass back under that bridge. It misses you!
Feministers, any chance of pulling out the Troll-Be-Gone??

To everyone else: What is this obsession OneTroll (thanks, JetGirl!) has with being "put away for life"? I mean, people almost never get "put away for life" and when they do it's generally for [allegedly] doing things so spectacularly violent that the law, as a written law to beaurocratically enforce, is sort of beside the point and the bigger issue is the sheer moral outrage it would cause in anyone not sociopathic. Weird.

"Please, everyone, just ignore OneVoice. SLK, it's okay, you shouldn't feel ridiculous about it at all and you CERTAINLY aren't obligated to defend yourself against OneVoice's laughable-if-they-weren't-so-pitiful "concerns."

There you go -- group-think! Notice the 100% affirmation of your behavior SLK -- not even a soft critique of your breaking the law or your rationalizations for doing it. Yep, judge others but don't judge yourself. Well, all I can say is, there are 150 milliion men and 3 million on the planet who for centuries have been saying and doing the same thing to most women ... "ignoring them, devaluing their voice, rationalzing it should be silenced, and so forth" ... for many of self-serving rationales, the least of which is ... women weren't telling men what they want to hear ... women didn't agree 100% with whatever perceptions, explanations, and feelings about reality the men have .... sounds like some women on here are picking up men's bad mental/logic habits:)

Nonetheless, SLK, I do respect your cyberpspace right to ignore me ... because we disagree in part or for any other reason.

Um, why is this OneVoice on here? Why are they spending so much time on this thread just to insult someone? Go and play in your sandbox and stop wasting everybody's time.

Salty, I do not think you should feel bad. However, I think your friend is pretty good for believing you and berating her boyfriend, since most women probably wouldn't even do that. She loves him, so I wouldn't be that pissed that she didn't leave him over it. But that said, I agree with most posters here - he's a creep. What sort of explanation is 'curious'!? What is wrong with people when they think they have the right to do this, and other people defend them?

"Um, why is this OneVoice on here?"

My answer, for the same reason why YOU are permitted to be on this planet. The last time I check, there are 7 billion of us, and I can assure you we don't all agree on many if not most things, lol. But hopefully we'll learn to use our respective POWER to not turn those disagreements into warfare or censorship. If we do, I can assure you, given our patriarchial world, sites like feministing.com would not exist.

Get my point!

SLK -

1 - What he did was wrong, how your friend tried to cover for him was wrong - and hopefully she'll understand that and apologize. If not, find a new friend.

2- Drunk or not, THIS WAS NOT YOUR FAULT. HE should be held responsible for HIS decision to grope you, which would have happened regardless of how old you are, ie.21 or not; so OneTroll can fuck right off and take his pseudo-accountability bullshit with him.

3 - Thanks for sharing your story, and sticking up for yourself. Both take a tremendous amount of courage and integrity.

OneTroll:
Does being male automatically make you less empathetic when discussing rape? No, but maybe it helps. Sadly. Just like how the anonymity of the internet helps people achieve levels of utter douchebaggery they could only dream about in the mundane world.
A lot of men are raised to believe that women exist for their own use, and you seem to be no different.

If this happened to your friend, your sister, or your girlfriend, would you talk to them like this? Try putting yourself in someone else's shoes before passing your idiotic little judgements. Underage drinking is not a crime of the same severity as unwanted sexual attention, anymore than jaywalking is the same as arson. You're drawing a false parallel and if that has to be explained and spelt out for you, then you're the one that has the growing up to do.

OneVoice, I'm not asking why they're 'letting' you be here, I'm asking why on earth it's so interesting for you to be here, insulting everyone.If you want to be noticed, how about making your own post on community? I don't know if they'll let it go through, since I'm sure they have hundreds of anti-feminist people trying to post, but hey, at least you'd have a separate discussion instead of using this thread.

sounds like some women on here are picking up men's bad mental/logic habits

HAHAHA. Oh, believe me, you do not want to talk "logic" with me. The "groupthink" thing is also especially funny considering my handle here.

(Sorry guys, couldn't really help it, it was too unintentionally ironic).

Hey SLK - Sorry again that you had this shitty experience and that your thread has been infested with the annoying troll.

Annoying Troll - Not that you care, but this is a forum in which people generally show respect for each other - even when the view points expressed differ. Now, every once in a while someone says something brash which causes offense (I'm sure I have done so) but you only seem interested in judging, condemning and insulting SLK and the readers. I hope you got your jollies.

Dear lord. I can't believe that this person has dominated so much of this thread. SLK, stay strong. Don't listen to those who try to tell you that someone touching you uninvited is somehow your fault.

I had a similar experience when I was in college. I had a "friend" who would do things like that when we were drunk, and I would just brush it off, try to forget about it, and tell myself it was nothing. Then one night, we were out drinking at some house parties. I kept pace with him, drink for drink, even though he was 6'4", about 200 lbs. Dumb choice on my part, to be sure, but I thought I could trust him to look out for me. When we got back to his dorm room, he assured me I could sleep on his bed and he'd sleep on the floor. In the wee hours, I woke up to find him on top of me, moving my shorts and panties to the side and shoving himself into me. I was still pretty incapacitated, and couldn't have stopped him. I couldn't believe it was happening; at first I thought i was dreaming. I was scared, sad, and betrayed. I didn't know what to do, so I pretended I was still asleep. He finished, quietly moved my clothes back into place, and slipped back down to the floor to go back to sleep. I never confronted him about it, but I never spoke to him again. It was horrible, confusing, and depressing to be so violated by someone I trusted.

You are absolutely right to decide what your own boundaries are. You have every right to decide who gets to touch you, and when. You have every right to confront someone who has tried to touch you uninvited. No one has that right, no matter how many drinks you or he has had, or whether or not those drinks were technically legal. Be proud that you are a strong woman who stands up for her rights.

Okay, then let me come down to "your level of disagreement. There are some ignorant, dumb-azz, women on here, probably white women -- those who complaint about men, sexist, patriarchy, and so forth, but don't hesitate to run out and procreate and love the monsters they complain about.

Yes, I'm talking about your "stupid ass women" (since you want to resort to name-calling such as OneTroll and so forth). Yes, I could be any or all of those things you say. But here's is a reality check, I'm a BLACK MALE. So the odds are 0% that any of YOU would be dating one of me -- you know, a member of the 40 million that white women (and the males they claim are sexist but continue to procreate) having been oppressing since 1629. So, please, for those of you who imagine you're smart, logical, progressive, and all of that other dumb-shit you've deluded yourself about, you're NOT. If you was, then this site would not exist, you would not be procreating daily the monsters you create -- for who the hell do you think primarily raises and indoctrinates your sons and daughters, surely not the members of my racial group. Now, if you want to name-call, engage in group-think langauge, bash me cuz I disagree with some of what SLK has shared, then bring it on. I can promise you, you're not smart enough, life experience enough, and because you're a whining, subservient to your white male female (most of you), we I can expose your delusions of power and and so forth. Be grateful, and I do mean grateful, that a male (and black male at that) has some feminist values (probably more enlightened and progressive than many of you), and is open to sharing his opinion and support women's right -- even white women's right, the majority group in America who daily procreate the babies, who becomes the monster patriarchy and false-conscious teens and women, who make the daily life of my group a living hell -- if you want to speak about disadvantage and oppression. So, shall we keep our opinions on a high-note, and keep your assine-name-calling assumptions about me to yourself, or shall I read some of your cyber-bimbo (who sure are such given what I've read) the race, class, gender, sexual-orientation, and all other ISMS riot-act. YOU procreate your monsters, not me. I can focus my resources, smarts, and time on solving only the problems in my racial-community -- and let you white folks self-destruct with your arrogant presumptions, including many of you shallow, false-conscious-ness so-called feminist.

But from what I've learned, studied, and witness today, the women's movement (and third wave feminism) needs all the help it can get, because I surely don't see 150 million American white male patriarchs (the one's you procreate, sex out, love, cohabitate with, and marry) changing their values, logic, laws, institutions, and laws to empower, uplift, and advance the self-determination and rights of 151 million women or 3.5 billion. To the contrary, what I see daily is them continuing to validate and build their patriarchy empire -- with the procreate, submissive, and false-consciousness support of their white female lovers (aka disgruntled but honorary girlfriends, wives, and mistresses).

It's one thing to talk shit online. But then the reality-check is, you have to go back to your submissive, kissing-white-males-ass, 24-7/365 lives, unless you're lesbian ... and even then you will probably spend the rest of your life being discriminated-against by heterosexual women, especially the white female majority along with their homophobic males, while wishing and hoping you'll be emancipated someday.

So, pleaseeeeeeeeee, if I want to come on this site to be some asshole, mysognist, and so forth, I could be. But then I would not waste my time doing such. I'd spend hours on here exposing all the self-serving, false-conscious, oppressive ways 101 million white females and their 100 million white males make the daily lives of so many non-whites a living hell -- but yet have the audacity to complain about how they are being treated bad, how the men they procreate daily, the men they sex out daily, the men they love and worship, cohabitate with and marry, treat them badly. Please, give me a break! If you really want to end or reduce sexism, then stop procreating these monsters ... or at the very least, stop socializing them, teaching them, to become such ... for who do you think is teaching these males/females most of these ISMS -- their parents, their friends, their lovers, their institutions, their laws, most of which are own and controlled by who -- surely not my group:)

I hope that Troll-Dissertation satisfied those of you who feel I must 100% agree with you, simply because we're sharing opinions online:) So, continue your bitching, name-calling, emotional, cry-baby, non-sense, and I'll be all that which you wish to falsely attribute to me and more. Or, we can keep it civilized and simple agree to disagree, thought perhaps passionately:)

"Don't listen to those who try to tell you that someone touching you uninvited is somehow your fault."

Where in my posts did you infer some stupid ass, white female logic shit like this! This is the kind of white-mentality-logic I deal with daily, an absolute denial and reinterpretion of realty to suit your ignorance.

Please, I never told this poster she was "at fault" for this guy's conduct. Perhaps because I disagree with her, and I'm not pandering to her, or treating her like she's a child, is why you say such. She's an adult. If she cannot handle the real world, offline and online, where people disagree, then she needs professional therapy, not a bunch of bimbos telling her anything and everything she wants to hear.

I can agree and disagree with SLK without having to treat her in some childish way -- for this pretense of empathy I'm reading from a few is more condenscening than any male (or female) sexism I've witness in my life. As for those commenting on my tone or style, oh please, spare me the hypocrasy ... the name-calling, etc. Try practicing what you preach, including putting your assine assumptions about me in check. Some of you started this name-calling, vehement non-sense talk. I simply disagreed with SLK, in my way, NOT YOUR WAY. I don't seek your approval or permisson as you don't seek mine. So stop the female bitching. It only validates why men treat you like inferiors, weak-minded, emotional idiots. If I didn't care about SLK, even though I may critique and disagree with some of her behavior, while also agreeing her former male friend was 100% wrong, I wouldn't waste my time even posting here -- for isn't that what men do, ignore women, treat them as invisible, not worthy of debate, disagreement, and so forth.

Enough Said!

OneTroll:

I confess, I'm not familar with this mode of reasoning, logic, called "Earth Logic". But I am familar with fallacies of logic and rhetoric, critical thinking, though I'm not a philo major or practitioner.

I should certainly hope not. I am, though, and your posts are bordering on incoherent to such a degree that I am actually kind of concerned about your mental health. I do actually think that there might be some points worth considering hidden deep, deep within your provocative diatribe above, but you need to back off a bit, chill out, and maybe come back when you do want to put some effort into "Earth Logic" and actually engaging in a real conversation with us here rather than insulting the original poster and then losing your shit when people call you on it.

'Enough said'? I sure hope it is enough, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

Idiolect,

I have not intentions of doing anything you suggest. I don't care what YOU think. You can do dictate what and how others posters on here think, write, and so forth. Now, not my posts were my opinions to SLK. She read them, shared her disagreement. That was our debate or dialogue. As for YOU, please, go talk that shit to those 101 million white males offline -- they need your leadership, and insights, not me.

Enough Said.

P.S. As for "loosing my shit" I think you might want to read all the female posts above (assuming they aren't males pretending to be such) and ask yourself -- who lost their minds, yourself included. Don't confuse me talking in a civilize, debate or dialogue way, with my not tolerating a bunch of white-bimbos assuming "they can talk shit to me" because we're in cyberpsace, and they want to delude themself they're "smart". Consider this my last post to YOU, for your white-arrogance (and, yes, I'm assumed such) offends me, just as I'm sure my cyber opinions offend you.

*shrug* Well, I tried :/

Tell that to the judge when he finds you guilty of break the law and puts you away for life.

Her boyfriend (and your former male friend) should be put to death (via the gas chamber) for buying your drinks when he knew it was illegal and for feeling you up (regardless of whether you were drunk or sleep, because he agreed to be in a monogamous relationship versus open-relationship with another woman).

Honestly, I'm having a hard time believing that anyone actually thinks this is reasonable. But that's why we have Poe's Law, I suppose.

But here's is a reality check, I'm a BLACK MALE. So the odds are 0% that any of YOU would be dating one of me -- you know, a member of the 40 million that white women (and the males they claim are sexist but continue to procreate) having been oppressing since 1629.

Wintermute -- also, we apparently have to prove ourselves progressive by "dating one of [him]," not by, e.g., carrying on civil and mutually respectful conversation.

"You honestly think that life in prison is a reasonable punishment for underage drinking? Really?"

I really think you're STUPID for asking this, for taking it literally:)

"And the death penalty for a combination of giving minors alcohol and daring to touch a woman not his girlfriend. But no penalty for non-consensual sexual contact?"

Um, he didn't "touch a woman not his girlfriend" and "SLK is not a minor (17 year old or younger)". He "felt up SLK" in the specific ways she described (meaning "non-sexual contact") and SLK said she is or was 18 at the time of the incident. 18 is a legal-adult in the U.S., at least if you want to enter the military and your parents don't want to support you anymore, lol. Again, I really think you're STUPID for citing the wrong facts, and again for asking this, for taking it literally:)

"Ah, and everyone on this site is a member of the Klan, too. You've not spent much time here, have you?"

You tell me! You're the one infering such associations, not I. I merely speculate the odds that most of the women posting here are WHITE and don't inter-racial date, at least not black males. But if you'd like to poll everyone using the site and find out FACTUALLY then feel free:)

Any more STUPID questions? If not, feel free to post your thoughts to SLK regarding her topic, as she is seeking feed-back, as long as it 100% affirms what she feels and thinks, meaning her topic has an unspoken disclaimer -- do not critique her, do not disagree with her, and bash the guy she's talking about only:)

I have a question: Do you believe I'm a "OneTroll" or is that feminist-speech (meaning an ad hominem abusive) for, please talk nice to me but let me talk shit to you, lol. I'll give you a clue: It's a rhetorical question:)

Idiolect,

If you want to carry on "carrying on civil and mutually respectful conversation" then you would not have lowered the discourse down to that ad homimen abusive level of "OneTroll". If you follow the choronology of the post above, you'll see that civil and mutually respectful debate or dialogue was not on your mental radar screen. YOU just wanted to dictate what I say, how I say it, and whether I can disagree with SLK. So, please, spare me your historical amnesia. As for your ignorant statement about dating me or one of us, please, don't insult me. I would never date a white female of your values or low-caliber, and I would like to think no member of my racial group would either, but I know such is wishful thinking. I'm merely stating a FACT -- YOUR GROUP invented the "ideology of race-consciousness and racism" in this Nation, starting in 1629 with the first 20 blacks sold for tobacco in Virginia, and then the introduction of anti-miscegenation laws, and the one-drop-rule, and so forth. And, yes, I do find it interesting that white feminist want this "equality" but fail to grasp how their race consciousness/racism impact non-whites. But then maybe Senator Obama can give you some lessons on that whole inter-racial reality, his perspectives as a bi-racial (black) male, but why he chose a black female wife versus white female or other race female. But I'm sure you think such things don't matter -- only "your gender" reality:) I think if the black population the U.S. was 200 million (the mainstream majority) and you were one of those "minorities" (and I don't mean white ethnic minorities) then your opinions here, and your reality, might be radically different, not so taken-for-granted.

Opps, I broke my promise, not post to you. I apologize. Please don't think me contradictory or disingenuous.

The whole "he cried" bit is bullshit. Hes simply ploying to not have you go to the police so he can avoid getting in trouble. I would go to the police and get him for giving alcohol for minors. This isnt because I'm against underage drinking (I did that alot before I was 21), but to get him punished somehow for the bullshit he pulled. I would also get him for sexual assault. The case is even more solid now that hes admitted what hes done. And yeah, he most certaintly has done this before....they always have.

One Voice is a troll. His posts should be deleted as offensive. He's clearly a male rape apologist and what is that doing here?

I really think you're STUPID for asking this, for taking it literally:)

If you don't think that underage drinking should be punished by life in jail without parole, why say (twice!) that you do think so? Are you being deliberately deceitful, or are you simply incapable of communicating your opinions to other people?

Not being a mind-reader, I can only judge your meaning from the words that you actually use, so I have a tendency to assume that people try to say what they mean.

Um, he didn't "touch a woman not his girlfriend"

and "SLK is not a minor (17 year old or younger)"

He "felt up SLK" in the specific ways she described (meaning "non-sexual contact")

Again, I really think you're STUPID for citing the wrong facts, and again for asking this, for taking it literally

I merely speculate the odds that most of the women posting here are WHITE and don't inter-racial date, at least not black males. But if you'd like to poll everyone using the site and find out FACTUALLY then feel free

That's not how the world works, my friend. You're the one making the "speculation". It's your job to defend it, if you want people to take you seriously.

Feel free to search the archives for any indication of racism. I'll be here when you get back.

I have a question: Do you believe I'm a "OneTroll" or is that feminist-speech (meaning an ad hominem abusive) for, please talk nice to me but let me talk shit to you, lol. I'll give you a clue: It's a rhetorical question:)

However, now that you've admitted that we shouldn't believe that you actually hold the opinions that you claim, and that you just make up your own facts whenever convenient, and that I'm STUPID for assuming that you were capable of carrying on a coherent conversation: how is that anything other than the very definition of a troll?

WinterMute,

My aka is OneVoice.

Two things.

One, you're right, I was not being "polite" to you by calling you "STUPID". I apologize. i should not infer from waht you ask or write that you're stupid, dumb, or ignorant. Even if I should think such, I should use polite language, like -- you seem uninformed:) Do you accept my apology? I accept yours for repeatedly not using my aka OneVoice, for suggesting I am this OneTroll. Note, I do think Trolls are cute. I buy them for friends as gifts. Would like the website addresses? They have some really cute ones on one site and then the more typical hideous ones on the other site. The cute ones are adorable. They are a tad bit pricey.

Two, I also defer to your wisdom about what is and is not an ad hominem. As such, could you please share with me your knowledge of the different styles of rhetoric as they relate to fallacies of logic (relevance)? I have listed the most often used (on this site, on other sites, in advertising, and especially by politicians -- and intentionally). I agree with you, 300 Americans should use language, communication styles, that are coherent and clearly communicate what they mean -- and most important should be honest, never seek to deceive or manipulate, or distort, or exaggerate, or embellish, or mis-communicate the truth, the facts. So, please, raise my consciousness, as you some of us "males can be obstinate and dumb". I've listed all those styles I hope you will define succinctly for us and perhaps also provide an educational example. Perhaps you could use my posts (and all the others here) as examples of how we should not use these rhetorical styles -- just a suggestion:

1. Argumentum ad hominem - Abusive?
2. Argumentum ad hominem - Circumstantial?
3. Argumentum ad hominem - Tu Quoque?
4. Argumentum ad populum
5. Argumentum ad vericundiam
6. Argumentum ad baculum
7. Argumentum ad misericordiam
8. Argumentum ad ignorantiam
9. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
10. False dilemma
11. Slippery slope
12. Complex question
13. Accident
14. Hasty generalisation - converse accident
15. Red herring
16. Straw man
17. Equivocation
18. Affirming the consequent
19. Denying the antecedent
20. Begging the question
21. Composition
22. Double-Speak

Thank you WinterMute for being tolerant of me and your friends -- those "we" people you speak of.

Your CyerberBuddy OneVoice

SLK, thank you for posting this and for sharing your worry that you are trivializing rape. I think many of us have the same experiences and are afraid to bring them up for the same reason! I think you handled it as best you could for what felt safe to you. I think it is important that the people around "Aidan" know what he is capable of, and you were brave for bringing it to their attention and calling him out on it. Please ignore all the attacks against you on this thread. I would suggest if you ever do feel safe talking to "Aidan" directly that you do it, because it is very cathartic. It took me almost 7 years to talk to someone who violated my trust in a similar way and when I did, it felt great.

Something very similar to what SadieWest describes happened to me, except that it didn't get as far because I freaked out. No drinking was involved, it was just sleepiness. This boy had been my close friend for about a year (it was sophomore year) and was fighting with his roommate (ironically, because said roommate was spreading rumors that I was sleeping with my friend, which I was not and did not want). He *begged* to stay in my room, and even though my 2 roommates and I didn't really want him to, we relented. He was to sleep on the floor. We all slept in our own beds, but mine was a bottom bunk, and the other two were raised high up off the ground. In the middle of the night I awoke to exactly what SadieWest described, except that instead of pretending I was asleep, I freaked out and pushed him away and we struggled for a bit. It was really scary, he is pretty strong, and if he had not given up, it would have been a very different story. Apparently this was all done very quietly, because my roommates never woke up. And I felt guilty waking them up since he was more my friend than theirs. I didn't really sleep the rest of the night because I was on guard. When he left in the morning, I was still upset and told them what happened. They were outraged of course. But then we let him move in with us for junior and senior year. I don't know why I was so stupid. But I barricaded my bedroom door every night for those two years, our friendship was forever soured, and after him saying repeatedly that he wanted to come visit me the last couple of years I FINALLY told him why I didn't want him to. He expressed sorrow and regret, and I feel better, but I will not ever trust or hang out with him again obviously. ugh.

As an aside, has anyone else noticed this: The only people I ever see on the internet using the term "ad hominem" are misinformed conservatives who get mad when liberals stoop to their levels. Maybe this person has been reading too many political blogs and wanted to sound as smart as the screaming conservatives do.

Kinda,

I 100% agree, though not with the political party labels. But WinterMute is going to expose this stuff for us. WM is going to help us all understand 22 styles of rhetoric, communication, that some use online and offline, and often intentionally. I look forward to WM educating us or at least me. With all the mind-games being played out there, online and offline, it would be helpful to know these styles.

"Please, give me a break! If you really want to end or reduce sexism, then stop procreating these monsters ... "

OH COME ON NOW!! This is such a beautiful case of the pot calling the kettle....BLACK.

You are one of those idiots that mumbles and stumbles through life saying "Woe me, I'm black" Well, honey, you do live in a "white" country, you live, you claim to have an education, so what the fuck?? What the fuck are you complaining for? You know what? I am not a racist and I don't give a shit about your skin color, my problem is that you cry about it so obviously you not only have a problem with being black, but also have a problem with the 'white man' living with your ass. You are a lame excuse of a human being and not because you are BLACK but because we, white females, should stop 'procreating these monsters' OH YOU....just get a grip, man. Why? Are black men better than white men? I didn't think so.

Now, SLK, sorry I got carried away, I do expect it to happen again. I feel sorry for what happened and I completely understand cause I have been in your situation several times and sadly (shame on me, according to Mr Righteous Black Male) more than once it went far beyond groping. No, not pretty and not excusable. I would have set his hand on fire, but that's me and how tired I am of idiots like that. You did what you had and could do, and you could have made it worse, and that asshole should be grateful and give thanks to God every single day of his life that he's not behind bars.

This is completely off-topic and I apologize to the OP for hijacking her thread, but OneVoice's racial arguments very strongly remind me of certain (very loud but, I believe, few and far between) men in the Asian American community, who think that Asian women owe them solidarity in the form of putting out. They fail to understand that the reason "the odds are 0% that any of YOU would be dating one of me" is not because of their ethnicity, but because they are complete and total assholes.

Also, I've never quite understood how disagreeing with a particular commenter means you only want to hear the opinions of those who will agree with you. Of course you have the right to spout your silly opinion, and she has the right to call you on being an idiot. I'm really failing to see the issue here.

Oh, and I forgot to add- SLK, I think your response to the situation was probably the best one available given the circumstances. You were absolutely right to break off the friendship. As for feeling ridiculous... your friend is probably making you to feel that way because otherwise she'd have to face up to the fact that someone she loves and has been with for a year and a half is a sexual predator. Which is a hard thing to face up to, but she shouldn't have to make you feel bad about yourself just to avoid it.

One, you're right, I was not being "polite" to you by calling you "STUPID".

What I did accuse you of was making up "facts" without any evidence and of not being able to articulate your own opinions. Feel free to apologise for those if it makes you feel better, but I'd far rather you just proved me wrong...

Do you accept my apology? I accept yours for repeatedly not using my aka OneVoice, for suggesting I am this OneTroll

I stand by my reasons for thinking you're a troll, but I'm willing to change my mind if you can start arguing in good faith rather than inventing things to get outraged about.

Two, I also defer to your wisdom about what is and is not an ad hominem. As such, could you please share with me your knowledge of the different styles of rhetoric as they relate to fallacies of logic (relevance)?

So, can you actually address any of the points I've raised in any of my comments, or can you find some irrelevance to blow out of all proportion? I'm willing to bet that you continue to act like a troll and then get outraged when people point out that you're acting like a troll. Please, feel free to prove me wrong...

wintermute, you have finally made him stop.

Thank you.

Hi WinterMute,

I'm going to ignore Boob3rries and Elsmith7 comments. Not because I want to devalue their voice. But because they are not black females or male and thus have no clue about racism as it relates to blacks -- 0-knowledge. This is evident in their ad hominem abusives:) So both of them can allocate their great feminist genius to transforming the 100 white males in American, including the one's they may be interacting with, instead of pretending they understand and relate to blacks females or males. They cannot! It is "what they think and how they think" that racism continues to perpetuate itself in America.

Now, to continue with our debate -- or are we having a dialogue?

"If you're really too stupid to be able to look the others up on your own, let me know, and I'll be happy to explain them to you."

No, I'm not "too stupid" to look the up. But in defering to your wisdom WM, I won't understand these challenging and difficult concepts. That is why I listed the 22. I do appreciate you sharing with me your contrasting definitions of an "ad hominem" and "insult". But could you please be more precise in providing me a succint definition and example for each of the 22. But this time, could you use some of your own post (and those of the others on here) as examples. By the way, an "insult" is an "Argumentum ad hominem - Abusive" also -- as it does not address the argument. It merely reflects an irrational, emotional, distraction, one that cannot be proven. For example, I called you "stupid". Well, I'm sure you're not stupid, at least not in the 100% sense nor am I. But "going there" distracts from the argument, plus it is not "polite" language.

So, please share your wisdom, for I think we're making gender progress here. But if you wish to defer that education and reiterate below your argument point by point, then I will response to each whether I agree or disagree and why. But we must agree upfront, there will be no Troll-Calling (LOL) ad hominen abusve wise if we should disagree:)

Thanks WM. I think I'm beginning to like you, and NO I don't mean in some sexual sense. You have a nice cyber-personality, though I speculate your tongue-lashings seem a tad bit out of character for you. BTW, WM, what if I was a 35 year old affluent (meaning rich) single white female but not a black male, with a JD, MBA, MPA, 2 PhD educated female (specialized in woman's studies, sociology, and feminism, and multicultural studies) from an Ivy League, a tenured professor, and a female-leader in the poor urban communities, though I might live in an very upscale affluent community, and I have done and do quite a bit (program and policy wise) for women (especially women of color and the gay community)? Would that offline reality shock you, given some of the presumptions made here? Now, mind you, I said "what if" as in hypothetical, for many of us often make absolutist assumptions about the "who's who" behind the computer screen, and do so based on a few snippets of typed comments:)

Now, to continue with our debate -- or are we having a dialogue?

No, I'm not "too stupid" to look the up. But in defering to your wisdom WM, I won't understand these challenging and difficult concepts. That is why I listed the 22. I do appreciate you sharing with me your contrasting definitions of an "ad hominem" and "insult". But could you please be more precise in providing me a succint definition and example for each of the 22. But this time, could you use some of your own post (and those of the others on here) as examples.

But we must agree upfront, there will be no Troll-Calling (LOL) ad hominen abusve wise if we should disagree:)

what if I was a 35 year old affluent (meaning rich) single white female but not a black male, with a JD, MBA, MPA, 2 PhD educated female (specialized in woman's studies, sociology, and feminism, and multicultural studies) from an Ivy League, a tenured professor, and a female-leader in the poor urban communities, though I might live in an very upscale affluent community, and I have done and do quite a bit (program and policy wise) for women (especially women of color and the gay community)? Would that offline reality shock you, given some of the presumptions made here?

Of course, if all those things are true, and you're just pretending to be a reactionary, trollish, racist black male rape apologist with an IQ in double figures and feelings of sexual inadequacy, then that doesn't actually make you less of a troll. Quite the opposite, in fact. I'd give you credit for an excellent impersonation, though.

"I'm going to ignore Boob3rries and Elsmith7 comments. Not because I want to devalue their voice. But because they are not black females or male and thus have no clue about racism as it relates to blacks -- 0-knowledge. This is evident in their ad hominem abusives:) So both of them can allocate their great feminist genius to transforming the 100 white males in American, including the one's they may be interacting with, instead of pretending they understand and relate to blacks females or males. They cannot! It is "what they think and how they think" that racism continues to perpetuate itself in America."

You were the one to bring up racism to this blog by saying that "we" white people should stop procreating.

And it's people like YOU who continue to perpetuate racism in this WORLD.

Congratulations, you BLACK MALE. You managed to make this all about yourself and your sorry ass when in reality this had nothing to do with skin color or YOU.

I want to think that you are either mentally disabled or just right out ignorant, because no one that can put two sentences together would possibly come out with outrageous statements such as yours. I am white, yes, but I am not sorry for what happened to black people in 1629 or in 1960 because I did not exist and it was not my fault. So try passing that ball onto someone else, meaning YOU...white people should stop procreating? how about inbred retards like yourself?
Because THAT, my dear, goes beyond skin color.

Hi Boob3rries,

Why did you find my hyperbole "outrageous"?

Your opinion: "Are black men better than white men? I didn't think so."

What did YOU mean by this opinion? It could be interpreted (wrongly or correctly) as an inferiority versus superiority BELIEF as it relates to the juxtaposition of 3,784,677 Non-Hispanic Black American Males and 33,155,181.00 Non-Hispanice White American Males. 5,073,492.00 Non-Hispanic Black American Females might interpret (or misinterpret) your opinion to be outrageous -- in the sense of reflecting a taken-for-granted white-racist-belief.

Have you dated non-white males -- especially black? If not, why not? If you're lesbian, have you dated black female lesbians? If not, why not? Is the reasons because you're race-conscious and/or racist -- for what other valid reason would YOU have to "categorically choose one race of males over another -- as opposed to making preferences based on individual preferences"? Is not this choice of who we date, sex-out, love, procreate with, cohabitate with, and marry one of the most foundamental decisions and expressions of inclusive love for hour species? But when our species uses race-consciousness-racism-logic to categorically seperate ourselves into "better than" and "worse than" or "superior" and "inferior" are we not prescribing to a racism?

By the way, you don't have to be "sorry" about historical racism just I am not sorry about historical sexism or heterosexism or other ISMS. But we must be cognizant of how those historical ISMS privilege or oppress us, in addition to contemporary ISMS. We cannot selectively claim "individualism" because we want to deny our race, or gender, or class, or heterosexual privilege. But then claim "groupism" when it suits us, such as "us women" versus "those men" or "us whites" versus "those non-whites" and so forth. We are both individuals and groups. Our past, present, and future are inextricabley link, causal, create each other. As a feminist, you are not speaking on here to "individual males" per say. You are speaking to "males as a group". Feminism seeks to change the values and politics of "men as a group" ... not just "one individual male".

If you want to know why I used such "hyperbole" then read an insight book by Mary C. Waters: Ethnic Options: Choosing Identities In America. It is a fascinating feminist education on how "white-ethnics" miscegenated into this metonym (race-conscious/racist) group that today we call "Whites". It was that miscegenation, amongst other things, that faciliated white ethnics to reduce their racism/prejudice towards each other (Italians, Germans, Polish, English, Irish, etc.) enough to become "one-group".

Do I think such dynamics can help to reduce the racism amongst whites and blacks (and all the light-skin and darker-skin other groups who align themselves accordingly)? Perhaps, perhaps not! But you cannot talk "equality" in any fundamentally meaningful and practice way if you have "core-beliefs" that categorize men and women into "those I can love" and "those I cannot".

Boob3rries, I love you, in spite of your taken-for-granted racism:) And I hope you love me, even though my values, politics, and cyber-rhetoric (in this case, hyperbole) about how we can or might be able to address persistent ISMs does not agree with yours. By the way, I have always dated "multicultural and worldwide" since the age of 13. This is why I have a somewhat different perspective about American Culture:)

You have my permission, Boob3rries, to procreate a white baby. Just remember, some future feminist will probably accuse him of being sexist, mysognist, and a patriarch, lol. And the same goes for the non-white women who procreate. Their females will accuse of being the same, just probably not as much as white males -- this you know:) Look at those Dec 2007 Census Stats above. They represent "group-power" and one can only be discriminatory (act on their prejudice) if they have the POWER (in all of its forms) to do so:) I hope you don't feel like I was being ad hominem abusive to you in this post but more so debating or dialoguing about our different perspectives.

I also wish I had the article I read 20 years ago, when I was studying feminism and womens studies, for that "outrageous" hyperbole I used was the no-kidding political-belief advocated by a white-female-feminist. I'm afraid, however, I have lost much of that literature in my many travels. I also would agree, feminism was probably more radical, and unsophisticated, compared to today's evolution.

Are we cool now?

Got no problem at all with interracial dating, but I would never EVER date a troll!

Seriously, a young woman came here to hash through a very difficult and all too common experience, and possibly get some guidance and support. It's real easy to find judgment and victim blaming everywhere else.

Couldn't ya hijack some less personal thread?

To everyone on this thread who is not a troll: It is true that troll-bating is almost too much fun (in a picking at a sore tooth kinda way). My apologies for giving into the temptation. I couldn't resist a quick appeal to its better nature, just to see if it had one. I know you're supposed to ignore them until they get bored and go away.

So, again I apologize for using this thread for some quick amusement. Especially to SLK, whose situation inspires much empathy.

Hi Boob3rries,

I cited you the incorrect set of stats. Those are from my other public policy report. I was multi-tasking when I cut/pasted the incorrect stats.

Here are the correct Dec 2007 Census Stats. I share them with you, so you can fully appreciate the "enormous-group-power" (influence) white females (miscegenated white ethnics) can have compared to non-white-females in reducing sexism, heterosexism, patriarchy, and all other ISMs in the United States -- and perhaps world-wide.

21,540,978.00 - White Males (ages 0-17)
76,356,495.00 - White Males (ages 18-100)
97,897,473.00 - Total White Males (ages 0-100)

20,434,619.00 - White Females (ages 0-17)
81,029,255.00 - White Females (ages 18-100)
101,463,874.00 - Total White Females (ages 0-100)

5,455,359.00 - Black Males (ages 0-17)
12,276,380.00 - Black Males (ages 18-100)
17,731,739.00 - Total Black Males (ages 0-100)

5,295,225.00 - Black Females (ages 0-17)
14,188,247.00 - Black Females (ages 18-100)
19,483,472.00 - Total Black Females (ages 0-100)

149,341,077.00 - All U.S. Males (0-100)
153,580,349.00 - All U.S. Females (0-100)
302,921,426.00 - Total U.S. (0-100)

P.S. I promise, these are not Troll-Data, lol.

SLK:
I'm sorry you find yourself in this difficult situation. I just wanted to let you know that I don't think you did anything unreasonable. I am a legal advocate for a rape crisis center, and today I had to try to come up with an answer for an anguished father who wanted to know why so many people knew about his daughter's offender behaving inappropriately, but nobody said anything. Your friend has a right to know what her boyfriend did to you if you are comfortable telling her. After that, it's up to her what she does with that information, but at least she knows. As for reporting to the police, that is again up to you. As a word of caution, it does not happen often but know that the police could try to get you for underage drinking. They usually don't, but just be aware.
As for feeling ridiculous, your feelings are your feelings and you can't force yourself to be comfortable around this man or to feel any less violated. More than just the touching in and of itself, he violated your trust and your sense of security. Maybe you can forgive him someday, maybe not. That is nobody's business but your own. You should allow yourself to feel whatever comes naturally, because trying to fight it might only prolong the inevitable.
As for how you reacted initially, yes, in a perfect world we would all know how to handle that type of situation without hesitation. Yell "no", scream, kick and bite. It's our stereotypical ideal rape victim. Unfortunately, until you are there it is hard to know how you will react. Your reaction is extremely common, even in cases of rape and abuse. Many people just "freeze" or pretend they are sleeping, hoping it will just go away.
Keep your chin up, and just let your friend know that you are not ready to confront her boyfriend, and you may never be. It's not your fault he made the decision to cross the line, so you should not have to accommodate him and appease his guilt. I hope this helps.

Rhetorically speaking, does any responsible parent or adult think an 18 year old adult (or any age adult) ought to be drining 21 ounces of booze, but then claiming their mental-state isn't impaired, that they are still 100% fully functional.
Woah, I did not say my mental state wasn't impaired. I did not claim that at all. I said I was still on my feet and coherent. Please read the post a little more carefully!

I do have a very high tolerance for alcohol. I wasn't even hung over the next morning. Is it wise to drink like that? No, but I AM an adult and it was a choice I made.

If I had an 18 year daughter, and she told me she hung out with her friends, and was "chugging down 14 shots (or more) of booze", and she also claimed her mental-judgment wasn't impair becuz "she believes" she has a high-alcohol tolerance level, I'd read her the riot act.
First of all, I did the shots over the course of a few hours. The only thing I hit several gulps in a row from that night was a jug of water.

Again, never said I wasn't mentally impaired. I simply said I wasn't wasted (and I wasn't).

If my mother read me the riot act every time I did something she disapproved of, I would never tell her anything. Please consider that. If she couldn't be calm and speak to me like an adult rather than as though I'm a naughty child, I wouldn't have even called her to drive me home that morning.

Rhetorically speaking, does anyone here think the guy in question here, who was also drinking (probably as much or more) wasn't legally drunk. I'm sure if any of these 3 were given a breatherlizer they would have flunked it -- 14 shots!
Yeah, I would have flunked a breathalyzer. I think that's obvious. What's your point? I didn't operate a vehicle that night. And no, the guy wasn't drunk, he admitted that. He did not drink as much as I did.

But wasssup with women on feministing.com remaining silent about an 18 year female drinking 14 shots of booze (21 ounces), condoning her drinking underage and this level of booze, and not commenting on her claim that her mental-state wasn't impaired -- simply because she claimed such. I'm sure law enforcement would have assessed otherwise. But, hey, screw the cops and the laws -- just ask yourself, should SLK keep drinking like this at age 18, for she surely wasn't taking "sips" of booze but "shots"!
Um, where did ANYONE say they condoned it? I really doubt anyone on here condones my drinking. But you now what? Whether you like it or not, I am an adult. I go to college, I pay my bills, and sometimes I make choices other people feel are questionable. The lovely women of Feministing don't need to shake their finger at me for me to know what I did is something many wouldn't approve of. And again, I never said I wasn't at all impaired. I said I was on my feet and still coherent. There is a difference between being conscious and retaining your balance and being sober. I never claimed that the 14 shots had no effect on me.

After 2-years of being friends, and hanging out for 9-months, her male friend just ups and decided to "feel up his girlfriend's best friend" -- because "he's curious" and/or also because "booze" is involved and may have affected his moral-judgement, and he probably hoped the consciousness-level of the female he wanted to "feel up"?
I don't really understand what you're trying to say here. Also, he admitted he knew what he was doing and that his actions weren't the result of the booze.

However, it does mean she needs to ackwowledge that regardess of whatever punishment the culprit may or will get if punished by her or the law, there is no punishment that can end what may be a life-long re-living of a nightmare, and also perhaps those feelings of duplicity -- what oculd I have done different, what should I have done, to prevent or reduce the high-risks of this from happening?
I did question myself after the event. I wondered what I could have done differently. I am going to change my behavior. I'm never going to sleep in the same bed as a man 'just to sleep' again, for starters. I will most likely drink again, I may even get drunk again. Sorry, but I don't have any desire to make the decision to never do it again.

We know booze will impair our mental state, even a few "social drinks". We get our "high" and "fun" in other ways, that permit us to stay 100% fully functional, mentally.
I'm glad you've found an arrangement that works for you. It doesn't make people wrong or reckless just because they make different decisions than you though.

She was DRUNK (wasted) and so were they.
It's beyond horrible what happened to her, but I think you're overestimating how much I drink. I don't drink on a weekly basis and I never get drunk unless I know every single person at the party and have enlisted friends to look out for me. Am I still taking a risk? Yes, but I do try to be smart about my drinking.

I could also still be gang-raped. Will drinking be a factor in it? Not likely.

The other 3 women (including my current partner) were stranger-raped at gun-point, pistol-whipped, beaten, and gang-raped. There was no booze involved. They simply were jumped at night, in an area with there was no public-lighting, no people out, and leaving a college building late at night, on a beautiful college campuses with lots of trees and bushes and also lots of pitch-black places where one can drag a person and do anything and whatever they want, where screams of resistance and pain, and brutal nightmare commands of torment and torture fall on deaf ears.
My last class lets out at 10 PM. I try to park close to the door, I get into my car as quickly as possible and promptly lock the doors, but what can you do? Sometimes we have to be in unsafe situations. It's a part of life.

I wish you well, and that any emotional or psychological scars you suffer heal quickly, if such is possible given your experience.
I appreciate that.

OneVoice seems like a guy who took an online correspondence course in English, and so this makes his opinion inherently more valid than others', because he's had an "education." He posts his barely-coherent comments and feels superior. I would encourage everyone to stop dignifying him with responses.

Hey OneVoice ...you might want to take a look at this

http://www.census.gov/population/www/pop-profile/natproj.html

Hi Boob3rries,

Thank you. I'm familar with those projections, especially if you're refering to the Hispanic projections. Note, also, most Hispanics (and Asians) identity with Whites, not Blacks. This means most members of these groups are more open to befriending and miscegnation with whites. In fact, Asian females (with the exception of Phillopino) are the fastest growing inter-racial. More Asian females are miscegating with white males. Miscegnation is significant, because 303 million Americans are race/ethnic conscious. Being such doesn't necessarily make you prejudice or discriminatory. But it does mean one is going to make most of their life decisions, especially who they love, based on race (skin-complexion and culture) first and foremost. And these numbers end up being reported to the Census. In turn, these racial-demographics end up influencing which public policies and programs get created (and which don't), and how societal resources are distributed. Just like gender (male/female) is a fundamental organizing principle (consciousness and ideology) for how men and women relate and our institutions and policies function, so to is the case with race/ethnicity. What I'm saying gurlfriend is: In American, it is impossible to be "color-blind" -- unless you're a new born baby, who has yet to be taught skin-complexion distinctions, what those badges/identities mean (good and bad), as it the case for gender. This is why the Immigration Issue (especially in California involving Mexico) is such a heated, passionate, virulent, debate. Many whites, though some won't admit it, fully understand that American's racial-ethnic-complexion (and culture) will CHANGE if too many non-white-ethnics immigrate here (including illegal) and especially miscegenate. Go hangout in the black communties, especially urgan, Boob3rries. Remove yourself from "mainstream or rural white America" daily. Change your social networks, friends, lovers, and so forth. Do it as a reality-check test. I can promise you -- your whole value-system, perspective about reality, and all else will change. This would be the case for anyone who doesn't segregate themself. It happened to me when I first step out of American Culture and travelled and lived overseas. I had to CHANGE. Otherwise my American values, perspectives, would not have permitted me to "relate" to the world of diversity I interacted with. Anyhow, again, thanks for sharing the population projections. I hope you still don't HATE ME:) I still LOVE YOU.

charles.cook1@comcast.net is my email if anyone wants to debate, dialogue, or exchange information with me not relevant to SLK's topic.

I promised SLK I would not comment on her site again, for I sense my doing such is preventing or interferring with SLK and other women sharing their experiences, values, and opinions at it relates to the topic. Such is not my intent or desire when blogging on the feministing community.

I post on the feministing community topics to share my multiple-identity-perspectives and to learn from others opinions. However, I most definitely do not post here, debate here, or dialogue here to insult, devalue, negate, or troll any women -- whatever this "troll" thing means, LOL.

Thank you SLK (and also the other ladies here) for permitting me to share my voice even if you disagreed with it or hated it:)

I wish you all much love, be safe, and take care.

There is NO REASON for you to feel ridiculous! I don't know how recent this was but if it happened a year ago or a day ago I REALLY think you should call the cops because it was an incredibly sick thing to do and even if he doesn't get charged just knowing that he's had his name metioned to the police (especially about the booze and age thing) it's probably gonna scare him, so please do it. You could be the lucky one, you might have not been the first and you might not be the last. He'll have more girlfriends, he might get more drunk and he might get more...well, 'sick.'