It sounds like you're saying that the definition of rape has been stretched in these fantasies to include acts of rough but consensual sex, and that's disturbing. If that's the case, then I agree.

Have you read anything by Nancy Friday? She analyses thousands of letters from people describing their fantasies, and she gets an equal amount of 'submission' fantasies from men as from women. Men desire to be dominated as much as women, if these letters are anything to go by. She interprets a 'rape' fantasy as being a translation of 'It's not my fault. He made me do it, I'm a good girl!'. It's hard to have such explicit fantasies in a world that says it's not okay for women to express themselves in this way, therefore a 'force' fantasy is about getting round that and saying 'Well, I didn't have a choice, it wasn't up to me.' She also says a 'force' fantasy translates as 'It's not my fault I'm so amazingly sexually attractive that he was driven mad with lust despite all I could do to fight him off!'

I bloody hate evolutionary psychologists. Actually, how about a feminist fuck you for them!?

I hope I'm not being too off here, since, while a kinkster and a rape-fantasist myself I'm only peripheral to the kink community, and the community has a lot of depth that's really hard to understand from the outside. Oh, and I should apologize for not reading the article, I hate it when people come from a place of ~Science~ with nothing but anecdata. Which I'm about to offer, but I preface it by saying that it's mostly conjecture because this stuff is largely unstudied and when it is it's not from trustworthy sources. Yeah, sorry, I'm not buying that women are biologically programmed to enjoy rape; if we were, it wouldn't manifest as a desire for rape, we'd just be biologically programmed to want sex and OH WAIT WE ARE. Assuming it's biology means: Men are programmed to rape. And no one is going to say that because we all know it's untrue and a cruel thing to suggest. Also, it doesn't explain for the many, many men who pay lots of money to be used and abused.

Anyway, there's a big difference between dominance/submission play and rape play. Dominance/summission is usually consensual--don't get me wrong, it's always consensual, but there's a difference between consensual and "non-consensual" play. Sure, you could call rape fantasies "non-consensual sex" fantasies, but by then you just end up splitting hairs and the fantasy really is about being raped.

One of the other reasons I think for these kinds of fantasies is the internalized idea that rape is a compliment, and from non-conventionally-attractive women who became convinced that no one would want to have sex with them on normal terms--or that they dislike their bodies so much that they wouldn't normally consent to being naked with someone. Even after they get passed it, the fantasy lingers. It also could be a miswiring or response from the fear of being raped.

But when you have some people turned on by feet, and others by urine, and all other Rule 34 contingencies, I much prefer to not waste time trying to figure out why. People are kinky in really weird ways, that's all that matters.

I know this is going to sound kinda weird, but I think its all about your mindset. If you have it set up to have a rape fantasy and you are totally into it to the point where in your mind you have convinced yourself that don't want to have sex then it can be called a rape fantasy. However, if you are just being dominated and struggling against partner, but in your mind still want to have sex, then it is not a rape fantasy but dominance/submission.
I know it sounds weird, but that's how I have always put the difference between the two. Some people get really into it, and some don't.

Yeah Nettle Syrup, we definitely need a feminist fuck you for evolutionary psychologists. Soooo much conjecture, from a totally patriarchal position, by people who are immersed in a culture filled with all kinds of gender inequity. And they call this science?

And I think the OP has a good point. The words we use really are important, and "rape" fantasy just doesn't seem to capture what's really going on. Bottom line, every fantasy involves at least a minimal ability to stop or change what's happening if it becomes too frightening or hurts too much, right?

In a rape fantasy, you are pretending to resist. You pretend to fight the other person off, and that's arousing. It's a rape "fantasy" because you are fantasizing about getting raped, and a rape "roleplay" because you are roleplaying being raped, even if it is completely consensual. It's like if I roleplay being a sexy nurse, and I call myself a sexy nurse, I'm not actually saying I have nurse training. I'm pretending. So rape is the right word.

In dominance and submission, you can pretend to be raped, too, and that's a rape roleplay/fantasy AND a submission/dominance roleplay, or you can pretend to be "seduced," like struggle at first and then your partner wins you over before he actually penetrates you, and that's not a rape roleplay.

As for with men, I think while men often have submission fantasies-- ie, struggle at first type thing-- or sodomy fantasies, there's an understanding in our culture that it's quite challenging to rape a man without drugs because he has to have an erection, and whether that's true or not it tends to change how men view a domination fantasy.

One of the problems that's been drilled into our heads is that submission is bad and dominance is good. Submissiveness is also painted as inherently female while dominance is seen as masculine trait; this is a gross oversimplification.

When it comes to sex and mating it is assumed that submissiveness is passive and a position of weakness. But this is a patriarchal interpretation. Mother nature could never afford that type of bullshit.

Most female animals have a desire to mate with the strongest, healthiest males. Makes sense.

Well it just so happens that in the animal kingdom one of the best ways to tell if a male is strong and healthy is to have him chase or wrestle you a bit. And only if he succeeds can a female be sure that she has met her match, i.e. a physically strong male presumably with good genes.
(One should appreciate that this has advantages over the other common scenario of males beating one another to a bloody pulp and ousting the weak).

The patriarchy will have us believe that this type of scenario is an example of the female being inherently submissive, physically weaker and thus inferior. But the fact of the matter is that a female animal can't afford to waste her resources mating with sub-par males. This position is neither passive nor inferior because it ensures that she is getting the best genes for her offspring.

So to me the basic sort of common "vanilla" (meaning minus other kink such as humiliation and physical violence) force fantasy could just remnants of this female desire for the male to demonstrate his physical strength as part of the mating ritual.

Of course our brains are wired to look for commonalities so we've made a connection with real rape. But rape is physically and psychologically a different animal.

And in defense of evolutionary psychology if you wade through the patriarchal assumptions, the racism and the Eurocentrism, it's quite fascinating.

Ok - early pre-coffee thoughts from an anthropologist ahead:

In the anthropological field, evolutionary biology is generally seen as a pseudo-science when applied to modern social behaviors. It is usually seen as having validity only in biologically verifiable instinct-driven items such as the fight/flight/hide response brought on by adrenaline.

In the case of rape fantasies, it wouldn't fit the bill for an appropriate use. Rape fantasies are too socially structured by the person fantasizing and are not a species-wide or even gender-wide phenomenon. One of the most telling parts is that the majority of rape fantasies involve a romantic setting, an incredibly attractive partner, and a good deal of partner-centered sex. It gives the person fantasizing the choice to make these requirements whereas a fantasy about an actual rape does not. In most actual rape situations, there is no choice of partner or setting and no mutual satisfactory sex. There are people who do fantasize about this type of random violent act that does not bring them sexual pleasure as there are people who find attraction in most activities, but they are not the majority of people who discuss rape fantasies. (However, this is not to pass any judgment on either - people's fantasies are their own and so long as they do not harm others, they are not a threat to anyone and can be enjoyed by all those consenting.)

(In romance novel terms, think exciting-foreign-stranger-sex-fantasy where the exotic stranger doesn't know the language of your words when you protest weakly, but understands "the language of your body" vs. brutal-being-married-off-to-the-old-and-evil-uncle-sex-fantasy where you are forced to do things you hate with a partner you hate)

In acting out rape fantasies, most people are acting out a fantasy of giving over control of their bodies within certain pre-determined consensual guidelines. There is an expectation that the persons involved will act appropriately. If they do not and go against the fantasy-designer's wishes, then it crosses into actual rape and they may be prosecuted for it (though it is difficult to do so).

ok..my thoughts are getting a little too muddled. I am going to get coffee and will come back to write more later.

Right, Brianna, but, as mahjani just pointed out, there's a world of difference between most rape fantasies and an actual rape. Would they still be turned on if it was some nasty-smelling guy with bad teeth and a beer gut? Probably not. So the point remains that "rape" may not be the best word for it.

Brianna,

Rape and being a nurse are not equivalent. Rape is defined above all else as absence of consent, therein lies the complication. Plus I don't think being a nurse has quite the weighty and complicated role politically, so there's less to be sensitive to.

spike the cat,

Although I know you meant it to give another perspective, that just sounds like more evo psych loosely-theorized junk to me... I feel more comfortable pursuing guys than vice versa -what does that mean?

"One of the other reasons I think for these kinds of fantasies is the internalized idea that rape is a compliment, and from non-conventionally-attractive women who became convinced that no one would want to have sex with them on normal terms"

I think you hit the nail on the head here -I've thought for awhile that this explains my submissive (yes, I prefer that word) fantasies.

Rachel in WY and a.k.a. Ninapendamaishi: Yeah, but most fantasies don’t coincide with reality. I would NOT want to be tied up in a real situation, it would scare the shit out of me and my captor would be gross and creepy, most likely. I wouldn't even want my boyfriend to tie me up without previous consent. With my boyfriend, knowing that I can get out of it, I like it, and I like to pretend I can’t get out of it. I can playact while still knowing I am not in real danger, like people who ride roller coasters for the thrill.

It’s a “rape” fantasy because you are fantasizing that you did not give consent. It’s a rape “fantasy” because you are still very much in control of the situation. Which is why rape fantasies never mean a woman wants to be raped. She may want to PRETEND to be raped, but she wants to have the ultimate safety and control. Rape roleplay is not rape. It is still roleplaying—pretending—that a rape is happening, but it’s roleplay.

Fantasies by their very nature are not real, and everyone knows that yes, the sexy nurse is a nice fantasy, but don’t ask for a sponge bath in the hospital because you’ll get some burly man with a Fu Manchu and a Harley tattoo. Thus, should we stop referring to that as a “nurse fantasy?”

And as for the political role, that is why rape fantasies should be treated carefully—people do need to understand that a) having rape fantasies is not the same as wanting to be raped, b) rape roleplay is not rape, it’s consensually roleplaying a rape, and c) ANY roleplay of a potentially harmful event, whether S&M, rape, bondage, whatever, needs to be safe, sane, and consensual. That’s true of anything where saying “no, stop” might be misinterpreted as part of the game.

Let me put it this way: The difference between a rape fantasy and a submission fantasy is the eventual point of a submission fantasy is that the sub eventually submits—s/he is beaten or aroused or whatever into submission. In a rape fantasy, s/he never submits, s/he continues to fight his/her partner until the fantasy is over, continues pretending that s/he does not want it. That is what makes it different from standard submission fantasies, the person with the fantasy does not give in at any point.

Brianna, I think we pretty much understand the definitions of "rape" and "fantasy."

The OPs point still stands.
"Dominance and submission, even 'nonconsensual' sex (which ends up being consensual in reality) are just normal fantasies and desires. Calling these things 'rape' seems like calling red, blue."

When you fantasize about nonconsensual sex, you know, even in your fantasy, that it actually is consensual. But if it's referred to as a "rape fantasy" this important point may not be clear to everyone. And if calling it a "rape fantasy" does cultural damage to women, then there's no reason not to change the wording here.

@a.k.a.Ninapendamaishi
"Although I know you meant it to give another perspective, that just sounds like more evo psych loosely-theorized junk to me... I feel more comfortable pursuing guys than vice versa -what does that mean?"

It may well be junk, but it's not meant to describe the behavior of an individual such as yourself. That is way beyond the scope of any science field. Evolutionary psychology is supposed to give insights into trends in populations. It can tell us nothing about individuals.

The fact that you personally like something or don't like something has no bearing on whether a general trend exists within a population.

The reason that science can't tell much about the individual, is because there is always a complex dance of nature plus nurture--nature being genes, nurture being everything else, including experiences and education, that the person comes in contract with in a lifetime.

Allow me a less controversial example:
Just because someone has a gene for cancer, doesn't mean that they will get cancer. It's an interaction of a person's genes with her environment, e.g. lifestyle, nutrition, fitness, stress levels, exposure to environmental pollutants, etc.

Is it still helpful to study trends that we identify in people with cancer? You bet. And even if we can only make limited predictions about the individual we can make helpful broader generalizations about a group of people.

That's kind how evo psychology works. Yes, it can be flawed and biased but that doesn't mean it's totally junk.

"But if it's referred to as a "rape fantasy" this important point may not be clear to everyone. And if calling it a "rape fantasy" does cultural damage to women, then there's no reason not to change the wording here."

It's not calling red blue, it's calling red red but some people believing red is blue. Thus, the answer seems not to be renaming red, but rather, educating people. Honestly, either method will require equal amounts of effort on the part of those who initiate it, and I think there will be larger overall cultural benefit to ensuring everyone really understands that ALL fantasies, even rape fantasies, should be safe, sane, and consensual and no woman ever wants rape, than renaming a rape fantasy as something more PC even though the old term is perfectly accurate.

Ok - back post-coffee.

I don't think the term rape fantasy is going anywhere. In many ways the terminology is similar to cuckoldry-fantasy. The people who have the fantasy are not confusing it with the reality. I think the only issue there is based on people who do not share the fantasy and envision it as actual rape. I think this has the potential to be dangerous if a person tells someone/a potential partner that they've always fantasized about being captured and raped *and* that someone/potential partner is not mentally/emotionally in a place to understand that the fantasy needs explicit consent. There are always issues with people who can't understand the reality of boundaries. I don't think that the existence of the term rape fantasies supports or increases the incidence of actual rape, but it can be confusing to some.

The use of biology to determine individual social behavior is a dangerous game sometimes. I would say that in this case, while there is nothing wrong with these fantasies, the reality of people who don't understand consent does make it imperative that everyone be very careful and explicit in their interests and desires. If anyone does act out this type of fantasy, then follow the safe, sane, and consensual guidelines and always have a safe word.

I mainly just scanned the other comments, so forgive me if I'm repeating what other people have said....
Something interesting I"ve learned about people who were raped or sexually abused as children is that they generally (not all the time, but generally) go one of two ways. The first is that they are turned off from sex as they grow older, and can have difficulty becoming aroused or enjoying sex.
The other way is to become more focused on sex than is usual. All I know 'officially' about this part is these people have high sex drives. I haven't heard anything else because it's not something generally reported on or talked about, being a touchy subject.

I was raped as a child, and I went the second route. From experience I can tell you that what turns me on the most, and the fantasy that works best for me is one that includes degradation and rape. It's very confusing and for a while I was totally ashamed of it. My current partner has taught me that so long as it's consensual it's fine.

The point of this rambling account is that it may be possible that for some people, the fantasy really is rape, as in, a reflection of their first introduction to sexuality in the form of actual rape. And for other people, it's a 'rape' fantasy, where they're simply acting out roles, and fantasizing of their idea of rape. If that makes any sense...
So then a large division for whether it's rape or 'rape', fantasy could be in the background and intent behind acting the fantasy.

Good points, Kay. Thanks for sharing your experience. I wonder if anyone has done a study on how many people who have these types of fantasies are survivors of sexual abuse?

At any rate I'm sure this fantasy is complex and has many sources including a strong cultural one. I read a book called Sperm Wars from which I got the idea of ritual play struggle. I guess that's kind of the "lite version". Other posters have offered very interesting insights also.

And has anyone studied rape fantasy in men? Meaning men fantasizing about "consensual overtaking" a woman partner? Or perhaps fantasizing about a real rape? I wonder what the theories on that look like.

"In the anthropological field, evolutionary biology is generally seen as a pseudo-science when applied to modern social behaviors. It is usually seen as having validity only in biologically verifiable instinct-driven items such as the fight/flight/hide response brought on by adrenaline."

Wrong. Evolutionary biology has validity in a LOT of areas other than those related to instinct-driven items.

Several times on this site I've seen people confuse evolutionary biology with evolutionary psychology/sociocultural evolution. The hack stuff that appears to dominate the latter subjects is a relatively small (and new) subset of evolutionary biology. And more often than not, regardless of the discipline, the scientific caution and limits of a study are completely lost during translation by major media sources.

Unfortunately, the hack stuff is typically more popular because people like to hear how "evolution" excuses bad/dumb/stupid/stereotypical behavior.

The fossil record, the various mechanisms of evolution, speciation, evodevo, etc. are all valid parts of evolutionary biology that don't get a lot of mainstream media face time.

As for the rape fantasy terminology, I mostly agree with this assessment:

"I don't think the term rape fantasy is going anywhere. In many ways the terminology is similar to cuckoldry-fantasy. The people who have the fantasy are not confusing it with the reality. I think the only issue there is based on people who do not share the fantasy and envision it as actual rape."

Although, I would add that if we didn't have such a thriving rape-culture people probably wouldn't get rape fantasy confused with the actual rape. As it stands, it's difficult enough to get people to take rape seriously, and the tactic of excusing rape with the "well, look how many women fantasize about it, can't be that bad!" plays right into rape culture attitudes.

*Tofu - You seem to have missed part of what I said, "when applied to modern social behaviors." Evolutionary biology is fantastic when applied to biology and evolution. When it is applied to social behaviors you transition into evolutionary psych and evolutionary soc - where it is not considered valid without a physical indicator (at least in anthropology).

Evolutionary psychology is pretty much without any useful basis from what I can see. Evolutionary biology is great on biology and biological/physical triggers species-wide but not for modern social behaviors.

The thing that occurs to me, the nonpsych, nonscientist (in the hard sense) Bible scholar whose main association with the word "anthropology" is the word "Plato," is roller coasters.

If I'm wrong about this, somebody tell me (I mean it), but my understanding is that part of the thrill of roller coasters and horror movies and extreme sports is the idea of controlled danger. We want the adrenaline rush brought on by falling to our deaths, but we want to survive the experience. Could there be a similar phenomenon happening, at least in some people, with rape fantasy?

Ahaha. Interesting point as well, MaggieF.

I wonder if rape were non-existent, would the fantasy still emerge? Of course we wouldn't have the same name for it, but it's an interesting question.

Interestingly wiki claims that somewhere around 40% of men have entertained a fantasy of being raped by a woman...