I think this is something a lot of us struggle with, I know I do. I am female and my current partner is male. In public I am loud and opinionated, he is shy and retiring. In the bedroom, however, the roles reverse. I am the submissive one.

Since we engage in BDSM (among other things), some of our sex play results in actions that, in a different context, could definitely be considered abusive. The reason they are not is that we have strong communication skills and always use a safe word (although usually I don't need it because he can tell when I am uncomfortable).

In many ways we are mirroring the feminist ideal: entusiastic and informed consent with an emphasis on communication. But I still feel the occasional twinge of guilt. I'm a feminist, I argue against sexual violence, degradation, and female submission but my opwn sex life occasionally looks a lot like those things. The difference I suppose is that it is not.

Unfortunately that doesn't really help me feel less guilty about it. Especially on the few occasions when I have gone to school with awkward bruises and prayed that no one would get the wrong idea and think that he is abusing me. I guess there is no easy answer.

To me feminism is all about choice and integrity. If what you are doing in the bedroom is consensual and between adults, if it's sane and doesn't cause permanent harm, then I say dump the guilt (unless that's part of the pleasure) and go for it.

Until I took time out to write my new book Thanks But No Thanks: The Voter's Guide to Sarah Palin, I had been blogging for a few years about people over 50 and alternative sexualities. I talked to a lot of people with the same kind of conflicts you describe. The world of fantasy is very different from the world "out there." In this world, get your pleasure when you can!
Sue

One thing I liek to remind people is feminism doesn't mean every relationship has to fit a perfect egalitarian mold-- quite the opposite, in fact. It means that if a man is a bottom and a woman is a top and they like her to be the dominatrix, that's cool; it also means the exact opposite can happen, even if that seems to be contrary to feminist ideals.

The important thing is that you and your partner respect each other, you value each other and consult each other, you don't expect anyone else to follow the same mold as you, and all the acts are both consensual and enjoyable for both of you, you are in fact embodying feminism, the same as a stay at home mother can embody feminism if that is what fulfills her, or a porn star can embody feminism if she is choosing it of her own free will, despite the fact that they don't fit the traditional image of a feminist and some who call themselves feminists like to fight against the lives and choices of those women.

This is a topic that I think about often. My partner and I also engage in sexual pleasures rooted in female submission. Sometimes I feel guilty and confused. Sometimes I worry that we too easily slip into these unfeminist practices and lose the creativity that could come from re-examining what we do or trying new things. For me, that is the saddest part about how sexuality follows mainstream practices - our sexuality doesn't really feel like our own because it is so manufactured.

However, in general, I have come to accept that these practices aren't distorting my feminism and that, because they are confined to the privacy of our bedroom, are not affecting others' view of women either.

This is a great post. Count me in as someone who struggles with this. As others have said, respect, communication and consent are key.

I have two conflicts in my own life. I've come to terms with supporting the idea that sex between consenting, respectful, communicating adults is fine.

I cannot however, purchase or support in anyway, a large portion of the mainstream sexuality being pumped out, because the consent, respect and communication elements tend to be missing from the fantasy that is being portrayed. You lose the context that makes this stuff OK, you know? And to me the fact that people got paid, isn't a replacement for these elements.

The second conflict is that I really wonder how much of this outside stuff, kinda gets into our head. People are certainly at least partly influenced by romantic notions from movies and books, for example in shaping expectations.

And I'm not implying that I don't have free will, but I really wonder to what extent exterior ideas have some role in shaping our desires and expectations. Considering how powerful advertising is, I think there is cause to be a little cautious, and at the very least introspective.

You don't need to feel guilty about it.

The fact is that no one can control what turns them on, and acting on those desires is perfectly fine, as long as you don't hurt anyone and you don't start to think that just because you like to submit, every other woman should be the same way.

I have rape fantasies. Nearly every sexual fantasy I've had for as long as I can remember -- and I started masturbating when I was really young, so there have been a lot of fantasies -- involved at least some of non-consensual sex or submission. Really degrading porn turns me on. A lot.

I'm still a feminist. I don't think that rape is any less serious just because it's something I've gotten off thinking about. I don't think domestic violence is any less serious because I've enjoyed a spanking.

I don't know where my desires come from, but yeah, they might have come from living in an intrinsically sexist culture. And while that's something interesting to think about, it mean that my desires are in any way un-feminist.

Life is short. Explore your desires. If it turns you on, do it. You're not a bad person or a bad feminist because of what you do in bed.

I agree with most of the comments here. One shouldn't feel guilty about what they choose to do in the bedroom as long as (as stated in other's comments), it is consensual and doesn't cause lasting harm.

I definitely don't think that sexual interests and desires are anything to feel guilty about as long as everyone is consenting, etc.

But I do think that our desires are deeply shaped by our culture and the images that we're surrounded by. From a very young age girls are implicitly taught that the most important thing about them is their appearance, that they ought to be trying to please boys, that it is their job to be deferential and agreeable, and that they should always be aware of and performing for the male gaze. Why else would they be selling lipstick, thongs, and padded bras to 6-yr-olds?

So I think we should be interested in sexual desires, fantasies, and fetishes in order to understand and change the forces in our society that prevent women (and men) from acheiving sexual autonomy, rather than in an attempt to shame anyone. To me it's a systemic concern. I would love to raise my 2 girls in a world where there are more options for female sexuality other than the purity ball princess or the Girls Gone Wild slut, but unfortunately that's pretty much all they're presented with by the media.

I think as long as you're aware of your turn-ons and conscientious about them and their implications, you're fine. because that means that you are well aware of the difference between fantasy and reality.

I’m glad to see the feminists here are very open-minded about this sort of thing. I’m a heterosexual male with a submissive sexuality and I hate being judged badly because of it. But being the way I am has helped me realize one reason why gender stereotypes need to be abolished since most people expect the guy to be the dominate one, but what if I don’t want to be the dominate one? I certainly can’t tell most guys I know about this, they’d laugh at me!

I had an experience where my submissive mindset was blurring over into my 'regular' personality. I would defer to my partner's desires, and my whole life revolved around serving him (even though I wasn't very good at it.) I felt that something was wrong - a little voice in the back of my head that told me I wasn't being authentic. I began to research both the for and against sides to safe sane and consensual BDSM.

I decided that egalitarianism in our relationship and my emotional autonomy were more important than kink. I'm no longer interested in BDSM. I would probably encourage women (and men) who are invovled in BDSM relationships to do a lot of research on the "anti" side of the BDSM argument, as well as to continually and honestly examine your states of mind and your relationship.

I think that the answer to "Why do we do kink/bdsm/sm?" shouldn't just be "Because it turns us on and we're not part of some social trend that sexualizes violence. Besides, lesbians engage in BDSM too, so it can't just be about men and women. Also, there are women dominatrices and male submissives. So there." (These are actually some arguments I've read online)
There's got to be a better argument than that.

Almost anything sexually charged can become arousing, especially if it's playing the rules set by a culture that systematically devalues women and promotes the sexualization of power imbalance. So the "it turns us on" argument is a little weak. I mean, I've done enough SM to know that it's possible to operant condition a human with orgasm.

Also, does anyone else think it's weird that BDSM sites _always_ have some cheaply made crap to sell?
Also, why doesn't more porn sexualize egalitarian, reciprocal, loving sex acts?

My SO and I don't do BDSM, but we do have our handcuffs and blindfold. We both love to wear them, and we both love to put them on the other. We also don't mind 'giving orders', we just make sure it's not done in a degrading manner (now do this vs. do this, bitch.) I think as long as you are both consenting and sure it's because you want it, not because someone else said you did, it's perfectly OK.
Side note, we also call our hand cuff adventures 'punishment.' He'll make a joke that isn't true and I'll say "you lied, I have to punish you," "you've been naughty having an opinion, time to punish you." Of course 'punishment' is receiving pure pleasure, and if 'punishment' mean gettin every inch of my body licked with special attention payed to my nips and clit, I'm all for it!

Needless to say he is happy that I have opinions of my own. ; )

For me, having been raised catholic, I always had a bit of a guilt/punishment/absolution complex.
Being "punished" sexually didn't really work to help me over come it. I'd always end up feeling guilty that my partner had done all the work.

That's good that your SO and you both take turns. I think that's pretty cool. I used to think it was sexy to eroticize punishment, even good punishment. Now, it just seems forced and inauthentic.

My SO and I also take turns devoting all our attention to the other person. We just don't do it with handcuffs or blindfolds.

I'm going to reiterate some of the above statements.

If it turns you on, let it. The fact that you think about whether it is feminist is good, but guilt regarding consentual sex between adults is bad. If you and your partner are into it then what's the problem? Isn't that what sex-positive feminism is about? So giving into those "taboo" desires, with your consentual partner is FEMINIST.
Supporting your partners right to not be "into it" is also feminist.

In response to JoyfulDinosaur, all partners should "continually and honestly examine your states of mind and your relationship" in ALL relationships at all times. BDSM isn't the only situation that can cause this kind of brainwashing(for lack of a better word.) This is the kind of reaction that people have to completly vanilla relationships, religion, and even political ideologies. All kinds of things can cause you to give up your autonomy. Your advice to examine the life we lead and how it effects us is good advice, but your tone asserted that BDSM is probably not a good thing because of your personal experience with it. If it's not for you, and was bad for your mental health, then I'm glad that you were aware enough to stop. For some people this may not be the case.

Lilith Luffles,

Restraining someone and blindfolding them (bondage) and giving and following orders (dominance/submission) sure sounds a lot like BDSM to me. Certainly that's not ALL BDSM can be, and I'm not here to put a label on your sex life, but the letters in BDSM stand for things and it looks like you and your partner are at least doing the B and D parts ;-)

I bring this up not to say "you're wrong!" but because I think there are a LOT of people doing some hand cuffs, maybe some blind folds, maybe some nipple clamps, maybe some tying to the bedposts with a silk scarf, who don't see what they are doing as being related to BDSM because they have a certain image of BDSM as portrayed in mainstream media. It doesn't have to involve a full leather body suit, 24/7 submission, hooks through your skin, a dark, dank dungeoun full of illegal porn or silly master/slave names to fall under the BDSM umbrella, though the courtroom and crime drama shows and day time talk shows could easily lead one to believe otherwise.

I'm saying that it was bad for my autonomy, the egalitarian relationship I wanted with my partner, and for feminism in general.

I am NOT a 'sex-positive feminist'.

BDSM eroticises dominance and submission. I guess I belong to the group of feminists who believe there's something inherently wrong with that.

It's always baffled me when people suggest that sexual desires they view as "un-feminist" or "oppressive" must be a result of sexist popular culture and patriarchal hegemony.

Why not consider instead the inherent emotional and erotic appeal of playing with power? Playing with power is not necessarily, or typically, about hating yourself, your body, or your gender. It is about playing pretend, which we all loved to do as kids and many of us still like to do now. It is about experiencing vulnerability. It is about the adrenaline rush of fear and uncertainty. It is about the tantalizing neurochemical magic of intense sensations. It is about letting go of responsibility for a little while. It is about the thrill of playing the villain or the victim.

We can enjoy playing the villain or the victim and still understand the difference between fantasy and reality, and still want only the fantasy. Are we suspicious of, or concerned about, people who enjoy playing villains or victims in the theater or in film?

These pleasures should be neither guilty nor considered un-feminist.

Ayla,

You're right, what we do could be B & D, I just meant we aren't as extreme as what people do think of when they think of BDSM. Plus, there isn't really that much submitting or dominating going on, usually after about 5 or 10 minutes the cuffs come off and all the submitting and dominating stops.

I'm not trying to say extreme BDSM is bad, and I wish there was a better word to describe it than extreme. : (

@ Lilith Luffles,

How about "more intense"? Also ne can distinguish between SM and bondage on one hand, and roleplay and D/s on the other. And even within D/s there are a lot of different ways of doing it. For some people it is simply the way they play, for others it is a continuing aspect of their intimate relationship(s).

joyfuldinosaur-

I'm sorry that you have had bad experiences with BDSM and I'm glad that you have decided to make sexual decisions that are authentic and right for you. However, I don't think you can generalize your experience to make judgments for other people.

Speaking from experience, I can tell you that for many people who do enjoy various things that fall under the BDSM spectrum it's not really about violence, pain, etc. For me, and most others I know, the real goals are those of any relationship: communication, connection, and most importantly trust. I trust my partner with my life and I can talk to him about things that I have never told any one else.

I have never had a vanilla relationship that was as intimate or as egalitarian. Outside of the bedroom I cook, he does the dishes and cleans the house. I'm loud and outgoing, he's shy. I feel more like myself with him than I have in any other relationship. To say that all BDSM is bad for all people and for feminism is essentially the same kind of argument conservatives use to oppose gay marriage and abortion. Just because something doesn't work for you doesn't mean that it is bad for everyone.

I' m not trying to argue that what you see in pop culture is good or healthy. I think everyone would be better off without the constant sexual messages that we are bombarded with every day. But ultimately I think that a large part of feminism is choice and the freedom to express ourselves. I'm glad you choose a form of expression that fulfills you, but please don't judge mine just because it didn't work for you.

I definitely acknowledge that BDSM in a relationship such as you described above could in fact be an authentic and fulfilling sexuality for someone.

My beef with BDSM are the public, openly visual and commercial characteristics of it.

Public in the sense that it's hard to find a mainstream movie without subtle male/female power overtones.
Openly visual in the sense that BDSM proponents have a lot to gain by the increased social acceptance of BDSM imagery. And the perpetuation of a culture that eroticizes and sexualizes dominance and submission _without_ the eroticization of egalitarianism could potentially be detrimental to women as a class.
Commercial in the sense that quite a lot of companies and individuals have to gain from the endless amounts of clamps, whips, canes, floggers, collars, clips, rope, harnesses, maid, stewardess and other 'class warfare' costumes, etc. being sold to audiences who have been primed into believing that good sex=dominance and submission.
Commercial in the sense that a sexually egalitarian relationship doesn't/shouldn't need to buy or sell anything in order to get off.

So, while I think that people who engage in BDSM should have a community, and shouldn't be "made to feel guilty", they should be willing to examine their behavior especially in regards to production and mass distribution of BDSM imagery.

Oh, and I'm allowed to judge whatever actions I want. I don't think that feminism is largely about freedom of choice. Those are Western and capitalist ideals. This emphasis on personal agency and freedom has made the USA a breeding ground for narcissists.
Feminism, for me, is about what is best for women as a class of people, not about what makes some women happy and fulfilled. Undoubtedly, there will always be women who will choose to support the patriarchy under the guise of 'freedom of expression' (whatever that means), and usually these are the same women who decide that the only limit on someone else's freedom is the freedom to JUDGE.
Please, judge me. Rip my arguments open (they're mostly not my arguments, but Rebecca Whisnant's from her speech against pornography. Poke holes in them. Show me how/why judging others' actions is wrong. (but in doing that, you'll be judging judgment...) I believe in the open and free exchange of ideas, in the examination of argument and debate.
I'm not going to tell you to feel bad about yourself, or that you should feel guilty for supporting patriarchal power dynamics. Please be happy and fulfilled. You only get one life, so spend it how you want, right?

I just made a decision to create intimacy, trust, compassion and communication in a sexually egalitarian relationship. I would like to think that other people (even vanilla people -although I don't think that vanilla = egalitarian. I think vanilla means traditionalist, and therefore not egalitarian)
But I might be completely wrong. It might turn out that in five years or so, my partner and I are back to doing BDSM. and that culturally ingrained sexuality is impossible to override, and that there's never any hope for the prosperity of equal sex.

I hope that our planet isn't doomed to dominance and submission as the most pervasive sexuality. Because I truly believe that this form of sexuality is what eroticises rape in a grander scheme of things.

Joyfuldinosaur, well said.

A big clue for me has also been the assimilation of explicit and internalized racism into sexual desire as well.

I belong to an ethnic group that is likely considered furthest from the "ideal female" yet is disproportionately portrayed in some of the most backward, sexist, racist, down right derogatory type productions---no doubt as part of somebody else's guilty pleasure.

That's simply something I cannot overlook when thinking about this.

" It is about playing pretend, which we all loved to do as kids and many of us still like to do now. "

Good point. I'm sure role playing is very powerful for people who have developed characters in something like live action role playing.

But why do all the roles have to involve inequality? Captive/Captor, Villain/Innocent, Businessman/Maid, Dominatrix/dominated, Teacher/naughty schoolchild.

These all exploit power and class inequality.

Where is the role play that involves two characters on equal standing?

"Why not consider instead the inherent emotional and erotic appeal of playing with power?"
thus sayeth Jay Wiseman.

I have considered the above. I have experienced the above. There are still viable and emotionally intense, sensationally excellent alternatives to BDSM.
These alternatives receive absolutely no attention or attempt at legitimization in a patriarchal society.
I recommend that if you're interested in arguments against mainstream pornography and BDSM that you google video Rebecca Whisnant.

joyfuldinosaur-

I think you may be a little confused about the nature of this post. The original post was about whether mutually consenting adults should worry that their behavior in the privacy of their bedrooms is unfeminist. I think that the answer is no. As long as they a communicative and open with each other what people do sexually is their own business. Most of the posters in this discussion agree with me.

The topic is not porn or the commercialization of sex or even mainstream portrayals of BDSM. Porn is NOT the same thing as BDSM. If all pornography included a conversation between the participants (while still clothed) before hand discussing what each might like and coming to a satisfactory agreement, maybe it would be a more realistic depiction and maybe I would feel comfortable watching it (maybe not).

Most mainstream depictions of sexuality are problematic at best for many reasons. And I agree with you that it is hard to find any representation of any interactions between the sexes that doesn't have overtones of an uneven power dynamic. That is patriarchy, not BDSM. Most people are so unaware of the power dynamics that they don't even notice them. In the same way that queerness can be a tool for turning gender binaries on their head, power play can be a means to examine and deconstruct the norms of power between the genders (not that it always is, but it can be).

Your analysis is also fairly heterocentric. I'm not trying to to say that "lesbians engage in BDSM too, so it can't just be about men and women." But the points you make do ignore male-male or female-female relationships. I'm bisexual and my current partner happens to be a man. The basics of what turns me on isn't based on the gender of my partner. If my partner happened to be female would you still feel that the relationship was "supporting patriarchy?"

As far as selling things goes, we live in a capitalist society and if there is a way to make money someone will try to exploit it (not that I agree with this mentality, but that's how things are). There are just as many, if not more, products aimed at (hetero) vanilla couples as there are for the BDSM community. I don't need a latex catsuit and nipple clamps to get off any more than you need champagne, rose petals, and scented candles.

And on a more personal note, while I can tell the you feel very strongly about your position on the issue your approach to the discussion bothers me a little. It doesn't seem realistic, on a feminist site, to tell me that you are "not going to tell you to feel bad about yourself, or that you should feel guilty for supporting patriarchal power dynamics," but that you also believe that what I have openly professed to be an aspect of my sexuality "is what eroticises rape in a grander scheme of things."

I have been raped. In fact I was raped by a partner who had to stop the one time we tried any light bondage because it made him feel uncomfortable. BDSM has nothing to do with rape. It requires expicit consent and communication anything else is just abuse. Please don't confuse the two.

I am soooo glad that I'm not the only one who feels this way!! My boyfriend is mild mannered and laid back, and I am the opinionated, bossy one. I most definitely wear the pants in our relationship. I am constantly in control of everything. But in the bedroom, I love being the submissive one. It really turns me on to let him control that aspect of our relationship, as long as I get to control everything else:)