Clinton Decides to Accept Post at State Dept., Confidants Say
Via The New York Times .
This is a victory.
While I know she is a fantastic senator, and the State of New York will be sad to have anyone else represent it, I think this can only be welcomed as very positive news!
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I know I speak for a great many state residents of New York when I say I will be very sad to lose her. She has been a fantastic senator, especially to us Upstate. It will be interesting to see what happens when she replaces Rice - interesting this seems to be the only high level cabinet position offered to women (albright...rice...clinton?). Am I wrong about this?
I guess that depends on what your definition of "high level" is. Most people consider Attorney General pretty gosh darn high up there. Homeland Security is a bizarre but very very expansive Department and Gov Napolitano is thought to be on the shortest list to head it, although she's also thought to be planning to run for Sen McCain's senate seat in 2010.
While I am sad to lose her for my state, she can do a whole lot more in this position. And she'll be doing it for the whole country - which my state is part of.
So, to sum up, huzzah!
It seems like a terrible mismatch considering Hillary's strength as an advocate and her weakness as a manager. So far every time I've thought Obama was making a big mistake it turned out he knew what we was doing, so I hope this is another of those times. I hope Bill's foreign business relationships, a big source of his and Hillary's fortune, don't lead to scandals Obama doesn't need.
It seems like a terrible mismatch considering Hillary's strength as an advocate and her weakness as a manager. So far every time I've thought Obama was making a big mistake it turned out he knew what we was doing, so I hope this is another of those times.
I couldn't agree more. I can think of many reasons HRC would be a very good candidate for something like Health and Human Services or Labor, but she doesn't seem to have the experience or the aptitude for a Secretary of State. But I agree: many previous Obama decisions that have had me smacking my own forehead in dismay have turned out to be absolutely right.
Thank God that I'm not the only one who thinks that she may not be the right one for the job. I think she's quite qualified for many jobs, but I have a uneasy gut feeling about this position for her. And a big problem of mine is Bill's lectures in the middle east. I know that she's her own woman, but I feel that there are other positions that I'd be more comfortable her in.
I've gotten the impression Clinton is fairly well-liked abroad. I don't think she's gotten the stubborn dislike that U.S. conservatives (or extreme Obama kool-aide drinkers) have attempted to instill for her here at home...
I suppose that, given the primary and general election results, we can all afford to rise above that comment.
I PROUDLY voted for Obama in the general election and celebrated his victory! I am PROUD that he is our President elect and hopeful that he will do great things for our country and (especially) our perception around the world.
That doesn't mean that allot of so-called-progressives didn't (and still don't) hold an unfair and vindictive loathing of Hillary Clinton (or even former Pres Clinton in some cases) which is akin to the treatment by the extreme right.
There was allot of stupid hate on both sides during the primary, but we are talking about Hillary Clinton here and HER treatment by the American media, pundits, conservatives and liberals alike.
It's funny, I read something recently that said (paraphrasing): "Someone needs to tell the American media to get a clue, people actually LIKE Hillary Clinton!"
As somebody from Europe I can tell you, yes she is!
Most of us were confused about all the hate she got for being "shrill", "cold" and whatnot. In Germany we got a female chancellor, we went through the superficiallity-b.s. before. Luckily, our Chancellor silenced all the critics by doing quite a good job (even for a conservative) - and so will Hillary do.
I did't say that all Obama supporters were kool-aide drinkers. But there were some extreme pro-Obama, anti-Hillary people in the Obama camp...
I was in Korea when Hillary started losing and you started calling us "kool aid drinkers" so although I was following obsessively I might have missed all the smirking context. Do you also believe that calling the black candidate's supporters "kool aid drinkers" has no racial connotations, along with "Hard-Working Americans, White Americans" and Bill's dismissal of Obama's win South Carolina, since SC went black for Jesse Jackson and never went back? Because when you claim to be shocked, shocked that anyone would think these remarks had anything to do with race, you sound just like the Inland, CA GOP.
http://www.pe.com/localnews/inland/stories/PE_News_Local_S_buck16.3d67d4a.html
This will probably sound completely random, but I don't suppose you read Questionable Content and post on the forums there?
That's probably a rhetorical question but no, I've never heard of it.
Now now, you can find something in anything if you look hard enough.
I never liked the term "kool aid" used in this context because (to me) this suggests cultism -- like those individuals who were brainwashed to commit group suicide by drinking poisoned kool-aide.
I think this is a very offensive statement and shouldn't be used, but I don't think it is racially motivated?
As far as former President Clinton's reference to Jesse Jackson winning SC I just have to shake my head at the people who try to wring racism out of there. The other democrat to win that state was Bill Clinton HIMSELF and that would have been a damning reference to make in and of itself.
There was all kinds of gaffes and blunders and bruised feelings on BOTH SIDES in that primary, I don't think anyone would deny that.
That doesn't mean that all the hateful rhetoric towards the Clintons was or is fair or representative.
If you look at the good that both Bill and Hillary have done for this country and racial minorities and women and the poor... well I just think this infighting and bitter attacks that sound like GOP sentiments from the 90s is unfortunate.
How hard do I have to look? Hillary proudly billed herself as the champion of hardworking whites. She was less subtle about it than Jesse Helms. Bill explained defeat in S.C. by saying of course S.C. voted for Obama, after all they voted for Jesse Jackson. a.k.a. Ninapendamaishi's here calling *some of* Obama's supporters "kool aid drinkers" and now she's going to say she's never in her life heard blacks referred to derogatorily that way, and she's shocked and offended that anyone could assign racial meaning to the phrase.
On second thought, she probably has no idea in the universe why anyone would object to it. But do you think whoever taught her to call *some of* Obama's supporters "kool aid drinkers" is equally . . . innocent?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Electric_Kool-Aid_Acid_Test
It had nothing to do with racism.
Hilarious. We'll call that the over-under for her response. Remember when Bill said that the reason he was comparing Obama and Jackson was that they both ran good campaigns? At least, as far as I know, Hillary never bothered to try and explain away her comments about Obama's weakness with hard working white voters.
It's true though, aleks. Of the original Obama supporters (since before the primary) I know personally, I might throw a few into kool-aide camp, and they're white.
Both Obama and Hillary ran dirty campaigns. They both said nasty things about one another. Bill Clinton made some unfortunate comments, but I don't think you should hold Hillary fully responsible for Bill Clinton's gaffes (just as we can't hold Obama fully responsible for Joe Biden's gaffes -because you know /he's/ said some very racist and very sexist sounding things before, right?)
I think Hillary will be good, and I am excited for this administration. But why can't we just give her a chance? I think there are tons of people who were originally Hillary supporters who voted for Obama in the final election and are now optimistically giving him a chance...
In terms of what we KNOW about Hillary and Obama, well, we know similar amounts about both of them, and there's a lot we've yet to learn about both of them, because they've never had this much power before. Let's just see how it goes, eh?
Ah, so when you called us kool aid drinkers you had "The_Electric_Kool-Aid_Acid_Test" in mind. Now it all makes sense.
Joe Biden is famous for not thinking before he speaks. That's one of many reasons I wasn't rooting for him for VP. His remarks about Indians and 7-11's were all the more precious because he followed them up with "I'm not kidding." Although I think he's a good man, and hope he and Jill have fully recovered from their tour of Dick Cheney's vampire castle, there's a reason he's widely considered a joke. Is that really the standard we want to hold The Greatest Woman Who's Ever Lived to? As I've said, I think Hillary is an extremely effective senator and I thought she would be the strongest advocate for Health Care Reform in Congress (and have a lead role in writing the bill). Once she got over her "catharsis" and stopped sabotaging the Democratic nominee she became a very effective campaigner on his and her party's behalf. I hope that she works out well at State. The world remembers the Clinton years as The Good Old Days of America, even if they weren't all that pleased with us at the time. Hopefully that good will and her talents (which I fully acknowledge, even though I think this position is a poor match for them) and Obama's international prestige will make her a success.
But do you know where we are? Feministing. Here, damn Obama if he even considered whether Larry Summers was best suited to fix the economy, because of some remarks years ago that are in fact so inoffensive that they can't actually be quoted without deflating the controversy. But Hillary and her campaign's blatant appeal to racial division is to tiny a nit to pick?
I didn't have that particular book in mind. But when people used "Kool Aid drinkers" the context was always seemed to be one of the degree of ideological furor that practically blinds, the hippy-dippy kind or otherwise, and certainly plenty of white people fall into that category. But hey, don't believe me. You can totally construct for yourselves what you think every poster on this thread REALLY means, and then argue with yourself. Have a ball.
The whole I'm-not-worth-your-time thing was probably more convincing before you proceeded to reply twice more to the exact same post.
Also, if you read the entire article and have followed the news, you would realize that part of her decision to accept the nomination was due to the fact that the senior senators denied her a position on the Health Care Reform Committee and other powerful positions, so actually she probably would NOT get to do a whole lot about that in the senate...
Not everyone thinks Hillary was guilty of racism in her campaign, just like not like everyone thinks Obama was guilty of sexism in his campaign.
Personally, I think they both were guilty. But clearly, there is some room for interpretation.
I'm not disputing any of your points regarding the primary - but I am going to say that "kool-aid" was not a racist reference. I'm not really sure how it could be mistaken for one - the only references to "kool-aid drinkers" I find with Google are related to what I describe below, and what other posters have stated.
"Drinking the kool-aid" and "Kool-Aid drinkers" is usually used as a reference to the Jonestown massacre, where 1000 members of a cult died when they drank poison Kool-Aid. It's a caution to not follow leaders blindly. I hear it used a lot, I use it myself a lot, and I can almost guarantee that it is used as a judgement of character, without regard to race. I've seen it used to refer to warhawks, environmentalists, communists, pro-lifers, gay rights activists, and Hillary supporters.
I know it's not always a racist reference, but with regard to a black man's supporters? In the context of a deliberately racially divisive campaign against him? I mean, I could and would refer to white kids climbing in a tree as "little monkeys," but I sure as hell wouldn't if they were black because of the connotations. Now maybe the Hillary supporters who start call us "kool aid drinkers" really have no clue in the world that drinking kool aid is a derogatory stereotype about black people, but that seems a little far fetched.
I am absolutely thrilled that Obama and his team have decided to offer the job to Clinton. I couldn't be happier--ok, I could. The situation could be reversed! I have always been a CLinton supporter and only got behind Obama when it was clear I had to. But Obama hasn't wowed me, not even a little, on women's issues. In fact he's shied away from abortion, domestic violence, equal pay--things that are important to me and millions of other women around the globe.
So he's made a big leap forward in my mind by offering this position to Clinton. I think it will be great for her, his cabinet, our nation, and our world.
GO CLINTON!
In fact he's shied away from abortion, domestic violence, equal pay--things that are important to me and millions of other women around the globe.
Abortion, domestic violence, and equal pay are all on his to-do list, at least.
In one sense (getting women into more high offices), it is a victory. On the other hand, Clinton voted to authorize the Iraq War, which has been a disaster for Iraqi women. I hope that she will use her political skills and her good relations with our allies to further Obama's less-bellicose foreign policy agenda, and not her own. (And I think that will probably be the case.)
I hope that you apply the same kind of damning regarding the war to VP Elect Joe Biden.
That line or argument really bothers me for several reasons.
The number one reason is because it takes the blame away from the Bush Administration and it's fabricated "evidence" and lies.
Remember that our senators were LIED to and mislead with fake WMDs. They were privy to information that the American people (and Obama, as he was not in th senate at the time) were not. This information was not correct, but when faced with making those decisions based on the evidence the administration provided as "accurate intelligence," I don't begrudge anyone for voting to authorize the war.
And her extremist bluster and Bush enabling votes on Iran? Was she fooled AGAIN?
And for that matter, during the primaries she cast herself as an extreme supporter of Israel to draw contrast with Senator-Maybe-A-Muslim. When it comes time (Jan 20) to work with the Arab nations and Palestinians will they play good-cop, bad-cop or what?
They BOTH cast themselves as supporters of Israel, at one point or another. The U.S. has a long history of that, and it's largely due to our large Jewish population.
Is it better in your mind that Barack Obama casts his support for Israel than Hillary does?
[0+] Author Profile Page a.k.a. Ninapendamaishi replied to aleks :
They BOTH cast themselves as supporters of Israel, at one point or another. The U.S. has a long history of that, and it's largely due to our large Jewish population.
Is it better in your mind that Barack Obama casts his support for Israel than Hillary does?
*************
Considering the two posts you're replying to, it's pretty hard to see how you don't understand that my question about Hillary's fitness goes beyond the fact that she supports Israel, which I and every major politician in America does. To remind you:
aleks replied to deerly :
"And her extremist bluster and Bush enabling votes on Iran? Was she fooled AGAIN?
And for that matter, during the primaries she cast herself as an extreme supporter of Israel to draw contrast with Senator-Maybe-A-Muslim. When it comes time (Jan 20) to work with the Arab nations and Palestinians will they play good-cop, bad-cop or what?"
Now, if you can list some times when Obama's support for Israel extended to threatening to nuke Iran, you'll maybe have a point about equivalency. But my comment on Hillary would only be challenged if you can show that she is in fact a good choice for working with the Arabs, not if you could prove that Obama's really a horrible guy after all. Who the next president will be was news weeks ago, it's the Secretary of State that's being discussed here.
I hope that you apply the same kind of damning regarding the war to VP Elect Joe Biden.
As a matter of fact, that's one reason I wasn't thrilled with his selection.
Same. His closeness to the credit card industry was another, although that just means he represents Delaware.
BTW, cnn.com is reporting that Obama also named the amazing Ellen Moran, of EMILY's List, as his communications director!!
Personally, I would have far rather seen Clinton at either Health and Human and Services or staying in the Senate. She has no diplomatic experience AND has a huge liability in Bill's divers conflicts of interest, plus she'll have to take orders from Obama after that long, dirty primary campaign.
She's a talented woman, yes, but I really think this is a sop to her and her supporters. If she lasts more than two years, I will be shocked.
I always thought the origin of "kool aid drinkers" was Jonestown. The charismatic leader who convinces people to "drink the kool-aid".
Uh, yeah. You're right.
Not that wikipedia is the end-all, be-all news source, but it has a pretty succinct description:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kool-Aid
Let's not completely derail the topic...
Anyway, I think Hillary will be a fabulous SOS. She already has a lot of international connections, and quite frankly, I think she blew Obama out of the water during their debates whenever they got on to international issues.
I'm not saying Obama doesn't know his stuff, its just that Hillary seemed to have a better handle on the details.
I think it's a good position for her. Maybe she's not as inspiring as Obama, but she's certainly brilliant, and certainly as tough as nails.
oh, and by "inspiring" I just meant that Obama is better at speaking and making personal connections with people.
she is certainly inspiring to me!
Oh, everyone interested in this the topic of whether there was sexism during the campaign should see this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-IrhRSwF9U if for some reason you haven't already...