Female Feticide

This afternoon I attended a panel discussion on Human Trafficking and Violence Against Women which was really interesting and sad. But there was one thing that got me thinking, and I'd like to know everyone's thoughts on this.

One of the speakers mentioned the problem of female feticide (defined by the speaker as the abortion of fetuses because they are female, due to a cultural preference for boys). Now, obviously my gut reaction to the idea of female feticide is, wow, that's totally wrong just to abort a fetus because it's female. But then, I ran into a big brick wall in my brain dealing with abortion rights, because the argument essentially seems to be, "It is wrong to discriminate against fetuses based on their sex." But if I make that argument, it seems to imply that fetuses have rights that protect them from discrimination. And that means fetuses have rights. And we all know where that leads, right? This is my problem: As a feminist, I really don't like that people would abort a fetus just because it's female. As a feminist, I support the right to have an abortion. Period. How do I reconcile that with my complete disagreement with abortions on the grounds that the fetus is female? How do I reframe the argument that female feticide is wrong without falling into the "fetal rights" trap?

Also, one of the countries mentioned where female feticide is commonly practiced is India. Now, I don't know how the abortion issue is framed in India; I don't know if there's an anti-abortion movement in India that is comparable to the one in the United States. Does anybody know anything about that?

Sorry for the long post (and sorry if it's a little disjointed/incoherent/just plain ignorant.) It's just a problem that popped into my head and wouldn't leave, and I'm having trouble articulating it.

Posted by HollyPop - November 11, 2008, at 04:41PM | in Reproductive Rights
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37 Comments

[0+] Author Profile Page Kathryn said:

I've thought a lot about this issues too. Here's how I think of it:

Women should have the right to make their own reproductive choices, no matter what their motivations are.

There is a large instance of women choosing to abort female fetuses, because of, as you put it,"a cultural preference for boys".

This seems wrong somehow, but it is wrong to tell women that they can't choose their own reproductive paths. But the way I see it, the problem is not each individual choice, it is the aforementioned preference for boys. So basically, the problem is that the society values boys over girls, males over females. That is what we as feminists should work to alleviate.

In a lot of situations, that preference can come from the fact that there are limitations on how many children a given family can have, and on whether females can inherit and have the same types of rights as males. If we work to equalize things for women, then fewer of them will feel that having a female child is an unacceptable option, I think. But as long as they do, who am I to tell them that they're wrong about what's best for their lives?

[0+] Author Profile Page HollyPop replied to Kathryn :

You know, the implication of fetal rights within the word "feticide" occurred to me last night after I posted this. I think you're probably right. Either that, or she's never thought about it. Thanks for both your comments; I agree with them.

[0+] Author Profile Page Kathryn said:

also, the word feticide itself implies fetal rights, in my opinion. it equates abortion with murder, which I find to be a very problematic conflation in so many ways. I think that term indicates that the speaker you saw may have had a more anti-choice agenda, disguised as pro-woman.

You can agree with their right to terminate while disagreeing with their reasoning. But I think getting an abortion when one finds out she's having a girl might be more due to coercion than choice. How much of a right does she have to give birth to a girl if doing so would dramatically affect her lifestyle, social status, and ability to take care of her family (and ability for her kids to take care of her when she grows old)? Doesn't sound like reproductive rights to me. I think if you focus on that and on the inhospitable social climate for girls in these countries, then I don't think there's a conflict of interest.

And I second Kathryn's point on the word "feticide."

I would frame it as an issue of institutional sexism, personally.

If a culture truly saw women as being as valuable as men, baby girls would be just as valued as baby boys. If the culture is one that preferences male over female, and you have a limited number of children you may have, you will continue to abort female fetuses until you have at least your first boy, because in your culture the male child is much more valuable. It is still the woman's right to abort for whatever reason; however, such a practice as you describe could only come about as a result of a culture which systematically devalues women.

In that context, it has nothing to do with "fetal rights" and everything to do with simply another expression of how women are undervalued and seen as less in the society you're talking about. Since we, as feminists, believe that men and women must be equal in all things, how can we support such expression of patriarchal culture?

Problem solved. ;)

[0+] Author Profile Page HollyPop replied to Jadelyn :

Thanks. Gah, if only I could have articulated that myself.

[0+] Author Profile Page AlphaChromosome replied to Jadelyn :

First of all, "preference" isn't a verb. The verb form of the noun "preference" is "prefer". It's ok, I wouldn't expect you to know, since you're a woman and you obviously weren't given the same kind of education that your male peers did. Oh wait, you did. What are you complaining about exactly? The fact that teachers probably gave you more attention and dismissed the boys in your class as disruptive and unteachable? I didn't think so.

Second, are you really willing to admit that it's ok to abort a fetus simply because it's female? Obviously it's an ideological and moral sacrifice, but is it worth it so that you can live on in supposed ignorance of the gaping problems of your brand of feminism and the moral compromises that you must take in order to sustain it?

Third, mainstream feminism isn't about making men and women equal; it's a systematic attempt to make society give preference to women over men. Besides, women and men are inherently unequal. It's not a matter of being better, but simply that men and women are different and have different roles in society that have been ingrained through millions of years of evolutionary habit and adaptation. If women were actually expected to be equals of men in every way, then you would complain even more than you already do.

Fourth, thanks for feminism. Really, I mean it. I'd love to have my male children looked down upon for having a penis. For developing differently than girls in childhood. For having different interests than girls. Really, I thank you so much. You feminists have done immeasurable harm to society, a society that dismisses boys and praises intellectually impoverished causes such as your own as "progressive".

[0+] Author Profile Page nightingale said:

Do you have a problem with the abortion, or the reasons that cause it, and the culture that practically forces it?

There's nothing wrong with your knee-jerk reaction. It's natural, everyone does it. And you're doing just what you need to do, considering it and reconciling your views.

In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with the individual abortions. There is something wrong with the trend, and there's a whole lot wrong with a culture that values women so little that there are so many women aborting female fetuses.

[0+] Author Profile Page HollyPop replied to nightingale :

I have come to the conclusion that I don't have a problem with the abortions, I have a problem with the reasons behind it. I have a problem with the passive coercion to abort female fetuses that exists in a social climate that devalues women to such an extent. I think what happened was, I was listening to this speaker ( a Women and Gender Studies professor, no less) who placed female feticide on the same level (in the same breath) as female infanticide, which is clearly murder, and I had that knee-jerk reaction that made me confuse the issues a bit, but I've got them untangled now.

From a libertarian perspective, there is no conflict whatsoever, because there is a big difference between what people should do and what they should be forced to do, and these two problems are on opposite sides of the distinction. Women are entitled to decide to abort for anyone reason, or no reason at all. Having accepted that does not by any means prevent a person from thinking that some decisions are better than others, and working to persuade women to choose different ones, in the same way that one might want to convince people to take care of their teeth without also believing in coercive dentistry.

[0+] Author Profile Page aleks said:

If a fetus isn't a person and has no inherent right not to be aborted, then why should it matter whether it's being aborted for gender, race, health, or anything else? Is Pro-Choice now going to mean mandating a different list of circumstances under which abortion is allowable?

Like I said, these women may not (probably aren't) exercising their reproductive rights. If a woman has an abortion because there are no other viable options, that's not a choice.

[0+] Author Profile Page nightingale replied to aleks :

Just because we find their reasons troubling doesn't mean we want to take away the right. I'd compare this to women who have to abort pregnancies they want because they can't afford them. They have the choice, they should have the choice, but I want to change the situation so that they don't have to make the choice because of that.

For me, the point isn't whether a fetus is a person or not so much as
institutional sexism is thriving.
If we can create more equality and lessen sexism in the world, female feticide will decline.

[0+] Author Profile Page happyhappygirl said:

India actually has a law against learning the sex of the baby prior to birth because of this very problem, but the law is skirted all the time.

I do condemn sexual selection. It is wrong. I know Canada stopped allowing prospective parents to learn the sex of their unborn babies because of it, and I believe that there are far fewer ultrasound techs who will give "hints" in Canada.

These pregnancies aren't unwanted. They are terminated because something is "wrong" with the baby, and until female is no longer seen as "wrong," this kind of abortion is going to continue.

[0+] Author Profile Page rhowan replied to happyhappygirl :

You're still allowed to ask the fetus's sex during a regularly scheduled ultrasound. What you can't do is schedule an ultrasound just to find out the baby's sex or any other non-medically necessary reason - that's considered an unnecessary risk to the fetus and a waste of tax-payer money. However there are private clinics popping up all over the country where people can make "keepsake videos" of their little pre-natal munchkins.

[0+] Author Profile Page Luna replied to rhowan :

Actually, that's a Health Canada recommendation, not a law. Though I believe you need a referral to book it. And ultrasounds are scheduled routinely - virtually every pregnancy has at least one.

[0+] Author Profile Page Luna replied to happyhappygirl :

I'm in Canada, and I'm pregnant. I was flat out told the sex of the baby at my ultrasound. They asked me if I wanted to know, and I said yes. So they told me. This also happened at my ultrasound with my second child three years ago, and with my daughter 14 years ago. Not at private clinics, and not all at the same clinic.

[0+] Author Profile Page Luna replied to happyhappygirl :

know Canada stopped allowing prospective parents to learn the sex of their unborn babies because of it

This isn't true. With all three of my ultrasounds I was offered the option of knowing the sex of the baby. Those were 14 years, 3 years, and 1 month ago.

[0+] Author Profile Page Luna replied to Luna :

Sorry about the double post. The first one told me it wasn't posted, but clearly was. Weird.

[0+] Author Profile Page feministinmississippi said:


unti recently, i thought that there wasn't any total negative effect of aborting female fetuses. it does skew gender ratios, as it has in some parts of india and china, but i didn't think that meant anything. now some researchers and NGOs are discussing the potential effects, and although i don't know much about that, i plan to look it up. maybe the OP can share what the societal effects are.

my stance on this is that "female feticide" can't be banned. it has a to be the mother's decision. now of course we can guess that in a society where female fetuses are routinely aborted, mothers probably don't have much choice, but it's hard to limit reproductive freedoms legally based on that. giving women more recourse from abusive marriages may help reduce forced abortions.

my perceptions of abortion is india is this: the procedure isn't so much stigmatized as is pregnancy for unmarried women. married women are not stigmatized for abortions particularly. but for unmarried women, the choice to have a child is much more unavailable than abortions. she has the right to an abortion, but not a child. hinduism, the majority religion, is often not clear cut on any ethical issue, so it does not have the same impact as islam or catholicism. "personhood" for fetuses isn't a cultural phenomenon.

I've read that gender imbalances, in particular a shortage of females, leads to instability--or at least it has in the past. Historical record points to social strife, such as warfare and mass migration spurred by large numbers of young males (often impoverished) with little to no prospects for a mate.

That means that this same gender imbalance has happened before in our human history. Some theorize that it's not just a cultural preference for boys, but that it's a cultural "adaptation" to extreme overpopulation.

Since migration these days is limited and our economies have modernized, it's likely that essentially women will become increasingly a sexual commodity. Prostitution will likely increase (surprise!) as will the outright purchase and selling of brides.

Some customs will slowly begin to change as well.
There are reports of some Indian communities beginning to practice a sort of a reverse dowry where the grooms family pays the bride instead, for example.

In wealthy countries like Korea, would be grooms have already been looking to countries like Vietnam for brides, which sort of spreads the imbalance into other communities (for every Vietnamese woman that leaves for Korea, it removes a woman from the local dating pool).

Two things are for sure. The poorest males can look forward to a life of no dating options, squandering meager earnings on prostitutes.

And with fewer childbearing aged women, the population will decline.


[0+] Author Profile Page beka replied to spike the cat :

Sadly, there've also been reports of the reverse happening: increased incidences of abduction and trafficking of women just to fulfil some families' needs for a daughter-in-law. It's a shame, but that's a consequence of the original selection against females.

Basically, what Kathryn and Jadelyn said. A woman should be able to abort no matter what her motivations are; it's the reason why she would want to abort a female fetus - because girls are less valued - that needs to be changed.

[0+] Author Profile Page fledglingfeminist said:

I am completely addicted to a wonderful blog written by a woman who works at a Morgentaler clinic. She has an excellent post on sex selective abortion:

http://antichoiceantiawesome.blogspot.com/2008/04/finally-post-about-sex-selective.html

[0+] Author Profile Page HollyPop replied to fledglingfeminist :

Thanks for the link. I dig the machete metaphor.

[0+] Author Profile Page kbhvac said:

If you only have a problem with choosing male human fetus over female human fetus,isn't that discriminatory in some sense. Would it not be just as bigoted to prefer a female human fetus over a male human fetus?

I believe in most cases women are coerced by their husband to abort the pregancy if the gender of the human embryo/fetus is not the one preferred.

You do not leave the United States or Canada to encounter this kind of discrimination being practiced. Though it is most commom in ethnic minorities, it is not limited to their community.

yor bro ken

[0+] Author Profile Page HollyPop replied to kbhvac :

I would have just as big a problem with the abortion of a fetus just because it is male, if there was a foundation of institutional sexism that created a trend towards aborting male fetuses because male children are devalued, which as far as I know doesn't happen anywhere in the world (but someone please correct me if I'm wrong about that.) I've come to the conclusion that my issue is not with the abortion itself, because I believe women have the right to choose to abort on any grounds. My issue is with the institutional sexism underlying the trend of aborting female fetuses because of their sex. As far as I know, we don't have this trend of individuals aborting fetuses based on sex but overall showing equal preference for males and females (as in, Jane wants a boy so she aborts a female fetus, but Joan wants a girl so she aborts a male fetus.) We have this trend of individuals aborting fetuses based on female sex, and I have a problem with the underlying causes of that.

That's not to say the idea of aborting a fetus just because of its sex doesn't upset me personally, because it wouldn't be a good enough reason for me to abort a fetus. However, I'm not going to tell some other woman it's not a good enough reason for her.

[0+] Author Profile Page Wolf_22 said:

here is my take:

there is reproductive rights
and
there is eugenics and bulding of 'perfect' people.

if they cross paths, you don't have support that situation.

ethical pro-choice doctors often refuse to perform abortions under these circumstances or to 'sperm sort' for elective reasons.
many have also said in the future they won't abort non-heterosexual fetues or help make designer babies.
its no longer about reproductive rights in those cases.

[0+] Author Profile Page aleks replied to Wolf_22 :

You mean that ethical pro-choice doctors often decide that the reason the woman chooses an abortion isn't good enough?

[0+] Author Profile Page Wolf_22 replied to aleks :

do you really think aborting b/c you dislike the sex, sperm sorting to choose the right sex, or altering/engineering genes to have 'good', 'desired' children is part of reproductive rights?

Certainly. A potential human is not a rights bearing entity, so it is impossible to commit crimes against them.

And get off the whole eugenics thing. Since when has voluntary eugenics necessarily been a bad thing, anyway? The use of technology for these purposes is a logical extension of the eugenics engaged in by every parent, consciously or otherwise, merely by choosing who they have children with, or even to have children at all.

[0+] Author Profile Page Brianna G said:

Yeah, I look at it like this. It is unfortunate that they prefer boys. However, in about two generations of sexual selection, they will suddenly run out of women. And then their population will greatly decrease quite sharply. This will solve their overpopulation, and will mean that maybe the women who do exist will have food and shelter.

This is how the human race solved overpopulation before we had birth control, and they do not have access to birth control right now. Female infanticide reduces the population while male infanticide does not (one man can marry many women and have many children, the population is only reduced if there are fewer women to bear children). At least it's abortion instead of infanticide now.

[0+] Author Profile Page Lucinda said:

My husband is Indian and my daughter is half Indian/half European descent, so this issue is very personal to me. Our daughter is our life but for many Indian families having a son is still priority one.

In Indian, parents “pray” for baby boys because men traditionally support their parents financially while the daughters are "lost" to the family when they marry (they’re considered members of their husband’s family). There’s something odd resulting from the sexist preference of male offspring in India and resulting abortions of female fetuses over the past few decades: twenty-something women are rarer than men and suddenly more "valuable." It's ironic but somehow feels like the appropriate comeuppance for the male-preferring people who've been aborting female fetuses. I sorta like the idea that these young Indian women are able to start being more choosy when picking husbands. The culture insists that everyone get married and that evaluating people based on how much money they have, how much education, what sort of job they have is appropriate when choosing a mate. These women can start making demands for more culturally valuable stuff. They can potentially hold out for a guy they like better than the first one offered.

[0+] Author Profile Page kbhvac replied to Lucinda :

"There’s something odd resulting from the sexist preference of male offspring in India and resulting abortions of female fetuses over the past few decades: twenty-something women are rarer than men and suddenly more "valuable." It's ironic but somehow feels like the appropriate comeuppance for the male-preferring people who've been aborting female fetuses."

--------------------------------------------------

The market place adjusts, but probably not quick enought.

China's coercive one child policy and cultural preference for male children has resulted in some seemingly unanticipated demographic and economic consequences. Because of the artificially induced shortage a black 'market' is developing for female babies. Some famlies sell their daughters, some daughters are kidnapped and sold. (The market responds, even in a maxist state.) This is another example of the law of unintended consquences insinuating itself into the present reality.

Because of China's 'one child' policy there will not be enough workers to support their graying society and as a result they will have to import labor from other countries. The natural family support system has also been negatively impacted. One child will have great difficulty providing for two elderly parents emotionally and financially.

The marxist system places little value on the individual and places great value on the collective. Look to see forced euthenasia implemented to relieve the collective of the burden of the unproductive. 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his need' will take on a whole new meaning in China in the future.

For an example closer to home, look at our changing demographics. When the Social Security System (SSS) was implemented by Roosevelt in the 30's there were 20 people paying in for every 1 person drawing out. In a few short year as the baby boomers productive phase is behind them, they will cease being contributors to the SSS and become recipients. There will soon be 20 people drawing on the SSS to every 1 person paying in. That one person is going to be contributing a finacially crippling portion of his income to keep the system solvent.

(The ratios I have used are for illustrative purposes only. They are not exact, but they are in the ballpark.)

If it were not for the influx of immigrants, mostly from our southern border, the system would have already failed. That is why there is such a strong push in congress to 'amnesty' these people into our society. We need their tax money and we need their labor to service our human infrastructure as well as our logistical infrastructure.

Ben J. Wattenberg authored a book in the 90's entitled The Birth Dearth exploring this subject.

yor bro ken

[0+] Author Profile Page HollyPop said:

Thanks to everyone who responded; your comments are really helping get a grip on what I think about this. There's a couple of you I want to respond to individually when I have the time.

[0+] Author Profile Page Sister said:

The issue seems to be the scope of feminism. Exactly which female entities ought feminists be concerned about? And does the feminist call for justice extend beyond the female? I.e. can you be a feminist and harm the mentally disabled? What about a feminist who torturers animals? Personally I believe that feminism’s call for justice ought to encompass all marginalized groups including the non-rational. And it seems to me that more harm is done to future of the female fetus than to the future of the pregnant female in most instances of abortion. So I feel morally obligated to protect my sisters in the womb even if it causes hardship to my pregnant sisters… I’m not dogmatic about this but this is where my mind and my heart have led me.

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