Wow, this is a complicated topic. I don't think you should have to keep your mouth shut. And I don't think that anyone should be made to feel afraid, or like they are worth less than anyone else. So clearly any violence against Mormons in the wake of this election is wrong, but so is telling other people that they are not entitled to the same priveleges as we are because they don't share our sexual orientation. So it's a hard issue to deal with.

I will say this, though. I had never had much contact with Mormons growing up in Seattle. But here in Wyoming there's a much larger percentage of the population that is Mormon, and I continually feel offended by their beliefs. The Mormons in my community are open and explicit about the fact that they don't believe that women should work outside the home unless they have to, in which case the husband is viewed as inferior in some way. Many of the Mormon kids in this town are homeschooled, with big differences betwee the treatment that the boys and girls get. The parents make it clear to their girls that they're expected to grow up to be stay-at-home moms and not have a career or individual identity apart from their family. I take huge issue with this. From where I stand, it seems that Mormonism and Feminism are not compatible. Now, maybe it's the case that the Mormons here are not following the teachings of the Mormon church, and I don't want to paint all Mormons with a broad brush based on what I've seen. But I doubt that such a large community of mainstream Mormons would be that different from the rest of them. We're not that far from SLC, and there's a lot of travel and exchange between Laramie and SLC. So I'm curious to know how you reconcile these practices with your feminist beliefs? It seems to me like this would involve a lot of cognitive dissonance, but I'd like to hear your take on it.

If you believe that you are a Mormon and a feminist, that's what you are. Someone can't take your feminist card away from you. :) Thank you for being brave, and posting about Mormon history. I would, however, keep in mind the hypocrisy inherent in the actions of the Mormon church leaders as they attack another type of marriage. It was because of the Mormon founders original views on marriage that got them persecuted by the rest of "normal" society, and now the Mormon church leaders (to differentiate them from Mormon church members) are using that same discrimination and persecution against a form of marriage they don't like. Not to mention, the Mormon church has a history of bigoted views towards marriage they don't agree with, including interracial marriage.
http://www.mormonwiki.org/Racism#1947_First_Presidency_letter_to_Dr._Lowry_Nelson

As a Mormon church member who disagrees with this action, it is your responsibility to try and change viewpoints from the inside out. Tell your feminist friends you are a Mormon...and tell your Mormon friends you are a feminist.

I hope that part of this comment didn't seem like bashing, but I just wanted to try and plainly state why those of us looking from the outside are extremely frustrated with the actions of the church leaders. To see a group that was historically oppressed, especially for its differing views on marriage, attack another historically oppressed group's marriage rights is really sad, and extremely hypocritical.

(This is also not to say that violence against Mormons should be condoned, and of course, those in the current protesting movement should vehemently denounce and publicly speak out against any acts of violence that occur.)

Thanks for posting this. Women (and GLBT and lots of other people) have a lot to be angry about when it comes to religion, but unfortunately a lot of that anger gets turned on believers or on "religion" as a whole concept, rather on leadership and history and politics. [Insert rant about the Enlightenment and the tyranny of science].

Thanks for being up front about your faith and your feminism, and demonstrating that it's not a two-sided issue.

You do not have to put it delicately. Feminists and Mormons have different values, morals, ethics and ideals. Mormons shut women up (get permission from your man to speak at temple or have him speak for you GADS!!!!), restrict their rights and freedoms so that they have to rely on men, family and community, fought and paid for ads that lied about gay marriage, using fear to influence viewers & spread their oppressive ideals.
4 out of every 5 dollars spent on the campaign for prop 8 was donated by Mormons. You are not in exile now. You are one of the top two wealthiest religions in the world.
That a group once exiled and once the victim of hate crimes would spend so much time and energy propagating lies and spreading intolerance of another group- a group that is, to this day, being beaten to death and not allowed basic civil rights in a "free" country- is not compassion, is not unconditional love- it's hatred in action.

I have no pity for you.

If your religion cared about being liked and accepted by liberals, they would stop being sexist & homophobic, stop going on missions trying to convert people to a religion that is totally patriarchal and gives god (a non dual not male or female black or white energy) a bad name.

When your beliefs restrict women's rights, rights of GLBT, include shame and guilt, you have not earned the title feminist in my book.
Just the opposite in fact.

So, leave the patriarchal religion you are currently supporting.
Or create another sect. One that is not patriarchal, one that does not limit the freedoms of others and spends millions to spread that intolerance-

Change the patriarchal religion or leave it.

Until then
I don't think of you as an activist for civil rights, for equality, for women-
I think of you as someone who not only drinks the Mormon kool-aid, but, also distributes it and now,
comes to feministing to make us (or anyone protesting the abusive Mormon power) the big, bad, scary feminists- pullease! We're the scary ones?!?!
Your organization has more money and it is using it for what?!!?
Take a long look at your big, scary religious affiliation before you ask anyone to feel sorry or bad for you.

p.s. Mormon, psuedo feminist and kind of scary

I do not condone violence against anyone, ever.
That includes the Mormons who worked so hard to pass prop 8 - a hate bill in my book.

I just wanted to say, thanks for posting your thoughts. I'm not religious-- but My best friend is LDS and currently on her mission in Russia. She is also quite liberal, and has had some of the same issues you speak of. She spoke out strongly about gay rights, on the BYU campus. She doesn't believe in getting married right away like the rest of her family-- she wants to accomplish some things for herself first. She is also STRONGLY committed to her faith, and while we can't agree on that, it doesn't matter to our friendship. While I do believe Mormonism has a long history of intolerance, I do know that there are great people like her that shouldn't be to blame. She is a wonderful person, and since I havent had contact with her on her mission, reading this made me smile and think of why I love her.

Anti-8 campaigners ran an ad saying that the CJCLDS wanted to invalidate existing, legally recognised same-sex marriages, yes. But they did this because the CJCLDS was actively funding an attempt to invalidate existing, legally recognised same-sex marriages, and they were lying about what the legislation would do. They claimed that schools would be forced to teach children that gay sex was great, and that churches would be forced to perform gay weddings. The CLCLDS in fact managed to use these lies and misrepresentations to tear up some 18,000 marriage licences, though I'll admit that the advert was slightly misleading in that they didn't have to wrestle George Takai for it.

I can't get to You Tube from work, so I can't see the video you linked to, but so far as I'm aware the protests are generally limited to peaceful placard-holding. I'm sure there are a few isolated fights (as there always are when emotions run high), but if the video shows an all-out riot with people storming the Temple, I'm going to have to rethink my position here.

I can understand that it's not pleasant to see people attacking your church, and I can understand the need to defend them, but lets get this in proportion: No-one is trying to pass a law that makes it illegal to be a Mormon. No-one is spreading lies about what Mormons do in order to convince other people to take their rights away. From what I've seen, I've been pleasantly surprised at how calm and non-violent the response has been to the CJCLDS's attempts to take away people's freedom of religion.

Of course, not all Mormons support the church in this issue, and I'd hope that no-one is blaming Mormons as a monolithic bloc, rather than focusing on the church leadership. I'd hope that the anti-bigot membership of the church would strongly consider either leaving or working towards reform, both of which have a long and noble history within religion. If Mormons do not want to be tarred with the same brush, they are going to have to take steps to demonstrate that they are not bigots, one way or another.

"kind of scared" is asking for my pity in a passive aggressive way.

I do not hear "I'm working to change my religious community" in her post. .

I left my families church because it ruffled my feminist and civil rights activist feathers when I was 12.
I am spiritual and belong to a spiritual community that supports civil rights/equality.

I understand those who want to be supportive, but, if a man who is a member of the KKK came here and stated that he is "kind of scared" and is KKK but, is also a feminist,
I'd respond with even less patience.

I do however have compassion.

Being raised in a family who's religion is sexist & homophobic is not easy. Supporting that religion is a choice.
Rather than feel "kind of scared" of the movement to overturn prop 8
take action, leave or change the church from within.
You can.
It's a choice.
Unless you support prop 8 and the oppression of women in your organization. In which case, your identification as feminist is more suspect than Sara Palin's.

While I have some sympathy for you and the balancing act you describe between your faith and your feminism, it is a limited sympathy. That balancing act, and the tension that comes with it, is simply what happens when you try to hold two seriously incompatible systems of belief at the same time. It's called cognitive dissonance.

Because make no mistake, there is no way in any world that one could consider the LDS church and its stances or attitudes to be anything but extremely patriarchal, anti-woman, and anti-feminist. I should know; my mother's entire family is Mormon (with the exception of one awesome Buddhist cousin), and the high school I attended had what we jokingly called "The Enclave" - about three dozen heavily Mormon families, each with multiple kids at the school. I was best friends with one of the Mormon guys at school, and while we discussed the differences in our faiths and worldviews many times, the only time it ever got out of hand and turned into a fight was over the Mormon view on the role of women. I honestly don't understand how you can call yourself a feminist while still accepting the strictures of a stunningly patriarchal religion.

But that is, honestly, none of my business. And you consider yourself a feminist, and so long as you actually act the part (See: Sarah Palin is NOT a feminist, no matter how many times she tries to call herself one) then whatever, as I said, none of my business.

But you're complaining about how mean we're being to the LDS church, and I gotta say, that just doesn't fly. That supposedly "hateful" commercial? Spot-the-fuck-on factual. Dramatic license bringing the reality to life. Perhaps the church shouldn't have involved itself the way it did, if it didn't want to be the target of a major backlash from the communities affected by their truly hateful involvement. The "past issues" that our backlash against the LDS leadership brings up should have been considered BEFORE the church went pouring millions of faithful dollars and hundreds of faithful man-hours into taking away our rights. I mean, is it not the height of irony here that a church that was persecuted for their stance on marriage a hundred years or so ago has turned around and is now getting all up in someone else's stance on marriage? Yes, Mormons were once persecuted terribly, and for that I have the same sympathy that I have for any group that has been historically oppressed.

However, you are not oppressed any longer. In fact, your church has gone from being oppressed to being the oppressors. And if you expect that the community your church trying to oppress - a community that RIGHT NOW, in this very day and age, faces the same persecution that your church once faced! - is going to give your church a pass on it just because you suffered in the past, dream the fuck on.

I do hope that you don't feel you have to keep your mouth shut around here. However, you cannot expect that you're going to get a kid-glove treatment on the subject, either. If you want people who will just agree with you no matter what, this isn't the place for it. If you are going to publicly hold two staggeringly incompatible (in most peoples' eyes) belief systems, you're going to have to get used to defending that position. There's a difference between attacking a person, and pointing out (sometimes vehemently) the logical inconsistencies in a person's views. As I said, I hope you are not attacked; but you are definitely going to be challenged. That part is non-negotiable.

I commend you for your excellent post.

You are really taking steps to work through these issues in your own mind...and as SociologicalMe points out to Hara, taking this small step can be a beginning. The step of breaking off and forming her own splinter group might not be tenable for ohmissjulie right now. Perhaps she is isolated and living in a community in which she is one of the only LDS person.

On the other hand, I acknowledge that Hara's passion is not just an angry rant; it is rooted in a justified antipathy toward patriarchal-based religions and the great harm enshrined in their continued committment to patriarchy. Rachel in WY (as always, really) does a good job of negotiating the two different perspectives.

May I point out, though, Hara, that I don't think it's quite accurate to talk about Mormons having overcome or outgrown their persecution. As recently as this past January or February, a large number of voters and pundits were worried that Mitt Romney could not succeed politically on a national level. Also, I think it's generally not a great idea or a useful one to make claims about groups having overcome their persecution. The same is being said by Men about Women, by European-Americans about ethnic minorities, etc.

I would also like to add a note to all those who participated in the recent Hijabi thread: as you can see, several of the people on this thread are self-identified (on other threads) Westerners examining an extremely Western religion (LDS may have been based in the originally Middle Eastern religions of Judaism and Christianity, but it was innovated and conceived of by European-Americans). As you might also have noticed, the debate has been mostly polite and thought-provoking. This is, in my opinion, healthy and needed.

To anyone who might be offended that I, a non-European minority and non-LDS, might have commented on your religion, I mean it in the spirit of universal humanism but also of universal religious liberty (a concept in which I believe strongly).

Many, some would argue all,
people can trace their roots to a time when "My ancestors were raped, beaten, killed, and (exiled)".
Most of us agree that violence is not the answer.

Hate crimes against GLBT are happening right now, in this country. The Mormon churches contribution to the passing of prop 8 contributes to the intolerance that propagates violence towards GLBT.

That is something to take a good long look at if you are a Mormon and also want to be a feminist.

If the point of the post was to request violence not take place during protests of the Mormon church and the prop it helped passed, that informs me that you think your voice can create change. Please go tell it to your fellow Mormons. Tell them it's wrong to pretend to love everyone while promoting inequality. Oppression is not love. It is certainly not unconditional love.

Ok, that's more than enough from me.

My empathy to you, ohmissjulie. I was raised Mormon (I have ancestors who were persecuted for their faith and cross the plains and settled parts of Utah) but I chose to leave the religion when I was 17 (8 years ago). I also struggled with my mixed identities, primarily the feminist vs Mormon identity. I know there are Mormons who believe one can be Mormon and feminist - including yourself it seems - but after several years of struggling with it, I could not reach that conclusion. Mormonism is extremely patriarchal - especially in the belief of how things will work in life after death (polygamy may be outlawed in life but not in the after life). I wish you well with your reconciliation of your identities and beliefs.

I also want to say that this is NOT the first time the Mormon church has actively worked against gay rights. They have a history of doing so. This proposition in CA is the not the first of its kind and the Mormon church has supported all previous propositions against gay rights. They used to send openly or suspected gay people to get electroshock therapy to make them straight. One of my family friends came out to his Mormon family in the late 1990s as a teenager and he didn't get electroshock therapy (that primarily happened pre-1980s) but he was sent to therapy with a "recovered" gay man to learn how to turn straight. Guess what, it didn't work. His family supported Prop 8 and it breaks his heart. He and his partner of 5.5 years were going to get married in CA next summer and now they can't. The Mormon stance on homosexualitly is another reason why I left the Mormon church.

I still struggle to understand why this religion of my heritage is so hateful and willfully ignorant that they would pour so much money and time and effort into preventing gay marriage.

No one should feel fear for the lives because of their political or religious beliefs.
But I can't buy this "Mormons were abused in the past, please pity us" line.
What about the history of Mormon racism against people of color? I bet they felt loved, accepted, and safe. You can say that many religions have justified racism, but Mormonism didn't allow African-Americans to be ordained until 1978. That is really recent.
What about the taking of child brides? You can say that's an fringe group and that you don't share their beliefs, but where does the repsonsibility stop? I mean, how can you call yourself a feminist but then be a part of a group where a good proportion of your members condone or participate in this?
You have to choose what's best for your life, but I don't understand how you can be a Mormon and a feminist.

I've appreciated this discussion. Honestly. By stating that I'm "kind of afraid", I didn't mean to ask that everyone agree with me or pity me or whatever. I realize that the post might've come off that way - like I was calling out all the feminists and other GLBT activists for being Big Mean Meanies. That wasn't my intention at all. I do ask for respect, which I feel I've gotten from these commenters (we can vehemently disagree without my feeling threatened). But mainly I was talking about the kind of anxiety that comes from feeling alienated on all sides. And yes the violence outside the temples is very tame and routine as protest violence goes, but it still makes me nervous for the reasons I listed above - and because I don't think I've ever encountered it directly before like this.

So, why don't I think Mormonism and Feminism are incompatible? Maybe I should write a whole separate post on this, but for now, here's the thing. The Mormon community is huge, and it's much more diverse than the cookie-cutter image that most people receive. And I take great pains to separate Mormon beliefs from so-called Mormon culture. The culture (especially the mainstream, Utah/Wyoming/Idaho version of the culture) is often hugely oppressive - in my view, due to a distortion of the actual beliefs. I do the best I can to change that oppressive culture from within and bring people in line with what I find to be real Truth. I try to surround myself with open-minded people (inside and outside the Church) who seek after the same things. It does get difficult at times, though, and it can get a bit, well, scary. I think my struggle is somewhat similar to what Muslim feminists go through. Or at least, I resonate a lot with the Muslim feminists I've encountered.

The church structure is, I'll admit, openly patriarchal. That's something I struggle with. The leadership tries hard to maintain this without denigrating women (kind of a separate but equal thing, which I'm not always convinced is plausible). I think for people who are willing to be unflinchingly critical in their beliefs and actively work not to confuse "folk religion" with "pure religion", it's possible to navigate these things. But I'm still young; time will tell if I can really work that out. I do have strong ideas that I try to perpetuate where possible - I recently wrote a post on my home blog (which has a heavy Mormon readership) calling out sexism I've seen in the BYU community, for one example. And trust me, that kind of terrified me too. I also routinely speak out against instances of sexism, homophobia, or other intolerance that I encounter in conversation. But I know that I can - and should - do more.

I can tell you that there is a lot more empathy for the GLBT community within the Church membership than might be coming through in this instance. I'm about to graduate from an acting program at BYU (I know, the belly of the beast), and I can tell you the prop 8 campaign has been a struggle for all of us. You'd be hard put to find a student in my program (or the other programs I frequent - Sociology, for one) who even agrees with the Church's stance, much less supports our taking action on it. We just believe it's possible to disagree with the Church's political decisions while remaining in good standing as far as our core religious beliefs are concerned. And my hope is that anti-prop 8 activists can recognize that Mormons are not all the same, that we're not all hateful. Just like I hope that Mormons can recognize that feminists and GLBT activists aren't the Evil Destroyers of Society.

OK, this has officially turned into a second blog post. :P Hopefully that clarifies a bit without being way too much material to wade through.

I have to say, I am kind of surprised by the tenor of many of the comments in this thread. I feel strongly that no matter what we believe and how fervently many of us might disagree with some of the tenets of Mormonism, it is not our place to tell this poster that her views are incompatible and she has to choose between being a Mormon and a feminist. It is up to each of us to find a way to discover feminism in our own ways and to practice it in a way that works for us. I am an atheist, but I feel the same way about religion; if ohmissjulie believes strongly in the Mormonism, doesn't she have the right to evaluate ways in which Mormonism might need to change. I think that what some see as incompatible beliefs might instead be construed as an important starting place from which to think about making changes within Mormonism. As many of pointed out, religions are dynamic and changeable (not matter how imperceptible this might be at times); to simply abandon one's faith is different from using one's faith as a platform for change. I don't see the point in all of us rehashing the hundreds of things that we find wrong with Mormonism, in part simply out of respect. I don't think it would be deemed appropriate to say such things about Baptists or Muslims.

I can tell you that there is a lot more empathy for the GLBT community within the Church membership than might be coming through in this instance. I'm about to graduate from an acting program at BYU (I know, the belly of the beast), and I can tell you the prop 8 campaign has been a struggle for all of us. You'd be hard put to find a student in my program (or the other programs I frequent - Sociology, for one) who even agrees with the Church's stance, much less supports our taking action on it. We just believe it's possible to disagree with the Church's political decisions while remaining in good standing as far as our core religious beliefs are concerned. And my hope is that anti-prop 8 activists can recognize that Mormons are not all the same, that we're not all hateful. Just like I hope that Mormons can recognize that feminists and GLBT activists aren't the Evil Destroyers of Society.

It's not reasonable to assume that a given person agrees 100% with everything their church says. But, absent any other evidence, it's not unreasonable to infer some default beliefs from their religious affiliation, so long as you're prepared to change your mind as soon as they open their mouth.

In short, if Mormons want people to understand that they disapprove of the CJCLDS's actions in this case, they would be well served to demonstrate it. I'd be interested in knowing (for example) how many Mormons were in the crowds protesting outside of Temple, or if a significant number of Mormons are raising this issue with their bishops. Such internal pressure is about the only way that the church will change, and would be very helpful in convincing the anti-8 protesters that individual Mormons are not the enemy. And then, maybe the next Prophet will be someone who doesn't try to legislate away other people's rights.

Letting the hierarchy know that you cannot support the church's actions is the first step along a long road.

This is a classic example of the limitations of having our language being dictated by a dichotomy which in turns results in having our society being greatly limited. Now kudos and much respect goes to the original poster for introducing an important topic in which I personally feel has been avoided on this website for quite a while. That is how to accept a diverse group of women working towards a common goal.

Now to those commentators who are criticizing the original poster for not leaving her religion or being in full acceptance of a patriarchal system, look at capitalism and democracy right now. It, like many other Western European institutions, is based in patriarchal, sexist and discrimination, all of which has not been resolved yet. Does that mean one should look towards a new socio-economic-political system?

The issue that I am dealing with, as well as the original poster OhMissJulie, is how to come to terms with different aspects of ourselves that contributes to an identity. Should all feminists be expected to be non-religious and to be forced to be a feminist but only if you fit a certain criteria. Because isn't feminism an ideal to protect all women, regardless of political, religious ideologies; at least for myself feminism is the rights for all women and i do not pick or choose who will benefit from my own action within the movement.

Mormonism I know is deep rooted in many sexist religious texts, readings and holy laws, in which in turn has resulted in the unfortunate and tragic prop 8 ruling. I am not disregarding that issue but rather what can be done to work in negotiations with MANY religious groups against homosexuality and how can we educate people without intimidating or acting out in violence, which in turn has been the end result for many actions taken in the fight for and against gay marriage.

What we need to work on as a movement is to define where to go from here and should all patriarchal based institutions be destroyed? Or what can be improved and how does our society and language set limitations in which one's identity is securely bound in?

I think its absolutely ridiculous that the gays are lashing out this way. We won't be getting America's support by attacking a religion. This is between us and the government. We lost prop 8 because of our divisive campaigning.

For any of your NYers out there. Do not go to the protest tomorrow night at the Mormon church. Go to the peaceful protest on Saturday at Union Square.
http://www.jointheimpact.com

ohmissjulie:

I stand with you.

I am religious, and a feminist. (It's funny, but I get labeled 'extreme' no matter where I am, it just depends on who I am with at the time about whether I am an extreme feminist or an extreme believer).

I am not LDS, but I grew up around the corner from a LDS church and had many friends in the neighborhood and at school who were. The LDS church is so misunderstood, and I realize the discrimination/hatred that is heaped on you. I grieve for both our church's stances on GLBT issues, and I hope you will join me in fighting that injustice within your own tradition.

I think it is unfair that so many posters have tried to call you anti-feminist simply because you are religious. I live the distinction between my two communities as well. It is possible for religion and feminism to coexist, we just have to work a little harder to be taken seriously in both camps. *Sigh* Just know you are not the only one.

The perspective is appreciated---but it feels very much like you're standing up for your church more than for those who have had their rights taken away. Do you care equally about both?

I do not for a minute condone violence in protests of the church, nor do I think it is appropriate or useful to vent bile on members of the faith (as opposed to the organized Mormon Church, which *is* at fault here.) On the other hand, all of the things you named are things that happen to GLBT folk---sexual assault, being denied jobs, being driven away. If you're seeing panic in the gay community, its because the more rights we win, the more we hope to have a day come when we don't worry about those things.

I appreciate the struggle here for you as I know it must not be easy. However, if you disagree with the church, what efforts are you making to change it?

I think the Mormon Church could really stand to benefit from members like ohmissjulie sharing their views more. How else can things change?

I think many of us are angry at the LDS leadership now, but I'm angry all the time at the Vatican, and I can't and don't let that extend to anger and alienation towards the Catholic rank-and-file. In fact, my spouse is a Catholic. A churchgoing Catholic. And a feminist. How does she resolve the inconsistency? By supporting liberalizing forces within the Church, by hoping and praying that the Vatican gets wisdom, and by doing what she knows to be right, whatever the hierarchy says.

If OMJ were Catholic and feminist, that assertion would be unremarkable. And in part the difference was the surprising LDS leadership campaign in California ... but in part it's also the othering of Mormons. We'd never take the tone, with Catholics, that some folks took above. Too many of us know feminists who are Catholic.

(Yeah, Mormons have a bad history. So do Catholics, Protestants, Sunnis, Shiites ... Yeah, Mormons have been persecuted for their faith. So have Catholics, Protestants, Sunnis, Shiites ...)

Atheists and Unitarians who are feminist never feel at odds with their religious leaders; with those and a few other exceptions, the rest of the feminists in the world have a different experience.

I'm going to stay angry at the LDS leadership for a long time -- I suspect they won't change soon. I've been angry at the Vatican for as long as I can remember. But I can't condemn people of faith just because their church leaders are bigots. I need to leave room for everyone to have their own views. Doing otherwise is guilt by association.

What do you see as the core religious beliefs?

I'm sort of confused here, because, if you're correct when you say that feminism isn't incompatible with the beliefs of mormonism, as viewed by the mormon community, then why should you need to hide your politics from your church?

Next, I'm an outsider to the mormon church and community so I'm put into an interesting spot when I want to define "mormonism".

As an outsider to your community, is it ever my place to say, "no, no, you're all mis-reading your books. They actually mean to say, ____, that's True Mormonism, that's what mormonism should be"?

Should I take the stance that, since your holy books are false, any statement can be derived from them, so there's no definition of 'mormonism' that can be favored over any other?

Or should I simply accept what appears to be the mormon community's definition of "mormonism"? (And I'd be elated to be mistaken here. If there's a vocal subset of your church publicly objecting to the church's stance on Prop 8, I'd love to hear it).

But, even if we accepted your argument that there was a "true Mormonism" out there, and that most mormons where simply mistaken in thinking that their beliefs excluded allowing equality under the law then I still don't see the problem with attacking the mormon Church.

Your Church is a specific and discrete organization. It has officers and bylaws. It takes actions and writes memos.

If those actions and statements aren't a function of "true" mormon belief, then attacking the church for making them isn't attacking your religion.

thanks for posting this, i appreciate the conflict you are having between your religion and your beliefs about gender equality.

i want to point out two things that i don't see addressed here yet.

1. the protests outside the LDS temples - i have not seen coverage of every single one that has happened so far, so someone please correct me if i am wrong, but i have not seen anything about actual violence at these protests. vehement opposition yes, but from what i've seen, they have been peaceful. perpetrating violence is never ok, and certainly not in this case, so if anyone is threatening mormons or acting violently toward them, that is wrong. but voicing strong opposition and threatening violence are two distinct things. as i understand it from what coverage i have seen and from what my many friends who have attended protests outside of LDS temples and churches have told me, the protests have been virtually without incident. if there has been any violence, that needs to be addressed, but i don't think it's fair to condemn all or many of these protests as being violent when that is not the case.

2. excommunication - this goes into larger issues about religion, but as i understand it, the LDS church has excommunicated members who have spoken out against the church's involvement in the prop 8 debate. in my mind, there's something wrong with a religion that can't tolerate any sort of dissent within its ranks. most people i know who practice some form of established religion have points of contention with the official church doctrines. but the overall message and experience of that religion appeals to them and they feel that it is a conflict they can grapple with while still involved with the respective religious community. i understand that a religion may have absolutely inviolable tenets that it deems a follower simply cannot oppose and still be a faithful follower, but surely there is room for dissent about many things? if the LDS church really does use the threat of excommunication to hold over nearly everyone who speaks out against a church policy of any kind, that troubles me.

i know the guy who started signingforsomething was threatened with excommunication but i guess it hasn't happened yet. also the funding of the LDS church to that protectmarriage org that threatened to out businesses who donated to no on 8 strikes me as a thinly veiled blackmail attempt. those were the main things i have heard about so far.

i mean, the church HAS excommunicated people in the past for vocal disagreements with LDS doctrine, yes? which is to say that it could happen again over prop 8 (although now the bad PR might make it hard to follow through with that threat. frankly i don't see how harry reid hasn't been excommunicated yet by this standard!)

it just strikes me as maybe not the best way to manage your community (but i'm a godless liberal, what the heck do i know?)

Thanks so much for writing this ohmissjulie, and for your reasonable responses to some hostile comments!

I stumbled across a blog called Feminist Mormon Housewives recently (I'm sure some readers here would declare that the women writing it can't be real feminists, but I don't think we should declare that someone else is not a feminist; challenging specific behaviours and beliefs as not particularly compatible with feminism is much more productive) where a recent entry spoke about the Mormon church's adverts that said gay marriage would cause churches to lose tax-exempt status. The writer didn't declare whether she was anti- or pro-Prop 8, but about her discomfort that her church had lied in this way. I thought that was a very reasonable way of approaching the issues to people with probably varying opinions - and the blog in general prompted me to read about the modern Mormon church a bit more. I'm now much more enlightened and have had some myths dispelled - so thanks to you for doing the same!

(P.S. If you haven't seen the blog do google it - there are some interesting stories about a couple of the writer's relationships to their religion and reconciling them with their feminist feelings.)

It's the head in the sand comment that really gets me. I'd say it's a little bit more than willful ignorance (which many of us are guilty of with this), when your head's in the sand, but your hands are shelling out to a church that is actively attacking minority civil rights.

Yeah, us queers are really angry about what went down. As of last night's news, though, it was LDS congregation members attacking peaceful glbt protesters. So, I have a hard time buying that you don't feel safe because of peaceful protests. Maybe it's that you don't feel immune to accountability anymore? I think that's a good thing.

We all had our own personal failings in this civil rights disaster--we queers def. did not do a good job reaching out to p.o.c. voters--and so now it sucks all around, more so for the queers in cal, ariz, fla, and ark directly affected by it--but generally, this sort of crap makes the world worse for everyone in it.

I suggest a nice long steeping in your feelings of shittiness, and maybe next time something like this comes up, you will act like a feminist, instead of just calling yourself one.

YES. thank you for saying this.

And this--
"And me? Well, I don't vote in California, I've said. And I've taken that as my excuse to completely wuss out of the entire issue. I hid my feminism and my liberalness from my religious friends. I hid my religiosity from my liberal, feminist friends. I tried to make sense of the issue while I retreated from it - which, by the way, has turned out to be impossible. Unable to understand without involving myself in it, I figured I could just bury my head in the sand for a while and everything would somehow just blow over."

This is ridiculous, and you SHOULD feel badly about this. And this entire paragraph seems to be attempting to elicit sympathy for how hard it must be for you to manage multiple identities. Maybe you don't feel like you fit in anywhere because you are "burying your head in the sand" and not letting anyone know your true beliefs. Your entire post sounded weak and feeble and then you can't understand why you feel so confused? Figure out how you feel and stay true to it. This kind of inactive whininess is not what feminism or the queer movement needs at all.

I was intrigued by your post...and am conflicted as to how i feel about both what you said and the comments others are making.

I urge all those commenting and reading this post that those of us fighting for LGBT rights cannot fall into the trap of judging an entire people by a stereotype...there will always be exceptions.

This being said, julie, please understand that a group of people acting to take away the rights of innocent and oppressed people is not something to be taken lightly, and the anger that is being expressed here is justified. Please have the same courage to voice your concerns with the LDS community. We could all stand for a little more tolerance in this world - and the LGBT community certainly isn't getting it.

Hey, yer precious religion is doing Nazi-like things. Face it; no magic underwear can save you from that reality.

You’re religion deserves no more respect than Voodoo or Heaven’s Gate does. To me, yer all the same.

Christianity in particular is misogynistic. Perhaps even more so than Voodoo---I don’t know and I don’t care.

It all prevents progress and therefore enlightenment and by extension holds back feminism.

My advice is to drop yer religion like a lumpy Cincinnati steamer and flush with extreme prejudice. That’s a stinkin’ load you can do without.

That was a great post julie.

Pass the late sauce, but I am having major issues with this post. I would like to know more about tithing in the Mormon church. OhMissJulie's money is almost undoubtedly being spent on Prop 8 advertising as not only a member of the church, but also as a student at BYU. Not only do I see Mormonism as completely incompatible with feminist values, but I keep thinking about putting your money where your mouth is. That's great that you're against Prop 8, but doesn't your membership and your CASH say otherwise?

Violence is never OK.

It's also not OK to imply that the fact that you were worried about violence at a protest is equivalent to taking away rights from thousands of GLBT people, especially since GLBT people are disproportionately targets of violence and hate crimes for their sexuality and/or gender identity, which, unlike religion, are not protected by nondiscrimination laws on a federal level or in most states.

GLBT people suffer concrete, *legal*, *practical* consequences from our lack of equal legal protection under the law. If you are discriminated against in employment for being a Mormon, you have rights under federal and state law. If you are discriminated against for being transgender, in most of the United States, you have NO recourse at all. None. Not even in Massachusetts.

Comparing suffering is a bad idea, unproductive and divisive. I don't think it's useful to analogize GLBT issues and religious persecution.

I am truly sorry you feel afraid or intimidated to express your beliefs on certain forums. I feel that way sometimes too. But I feel a lot more scared when I hold my girlfriend's hand in public, or out myself in a job interview, or know that I may never have the legal right to marry the person I love.

I was raised Catholic. I kind of miss it. But I don't believe that men are better than women (priests vs nuns) that wives should be submissive to their husbands that life begins at conception.

So I think you need to vote with your feet.

As to what the Mormons have on their website, I read as far as "so-called gays and lesbians" and then I stopped.

I'm glad that ohmissjulie feels respected in this thread, but I admit I'm taken aback by the response she received.

Imagine if some Muslim groups had pushed their community hard to vote Yes on 8. And a Muslim woman posted here, feeling saddened by the bigotry within her congregation, but also saddened by the scapegoating of her religious community.

Would we have tolerated responses that ripped her "big, scary religious affiliation" and told her to "change the patriarchal religion or leave it"? Somehow I doubt it.

All of our religious institutions are patriarchal in their history, and most are patriarchal in their present practices. I would argue that Hara's comment was equivalent to shouting her down.

I'm sorry, but the Mormon Church is effectively a hate group. I know that it is *more* than a hate group, and that's why you remain involved with it, but it is still a hate group. I think that their actions are so abhorant that I don't see how anything else that they offer could be worth associating yourself with them.

Also, I'm confused. The only violence I heard about outside the Mormon Temple was that a group of people who *claimed* to be Mormons (no one believed them) attacked some of the gay protesters... did I miss something?

Mormons do a really good job of whitewashing their history... the Mormons killed plenty of people, too. I recognize that 100 years ago they were a hated group, but they did a lot to instigate things... it's not so one-sided.

But what happened 100 years ago is irrelevant. You are not hunted now. No one alive now remembers that. You have never known what it is like to feel utterly powerless. Thanks to your church, I do.

So while I understand the conflict you must feel, my pity, too, is limited. I know that individual Mormons might not agree with their leadership, but I fucking hate their leadership. They punched me in the face and stole away my dignity and I will do everything in my power to make them suffer for it - the institution, not its individual congregation members.

And I will keep marching outside of your church until they loose their tax-exempt status. They can be a PAC or a church, not both.

I encourage you to be more vocal in your church and try to change it from within, but until it does change, it will be my sworn enemy. And while you and I could probably get along as individuals, I will never, ever respect anyone who participates in such a hateful institution.

First of all, the heads of the LDS church are largely reactive instead of proactive. They aren't going to go too far out of their comfort zone. They didn't allow African Americans to hold the priesthood until 1978.

I don't believe that Feminist and LDS have to be mutually exclusive. I was raised LDS and I don't think I was ever more aware of my feminist tendencies. There are many people within the LDS community who blindly believe whatever the President/Prophet says (but isn't this true in many religions?). BUT, there are plenty of people who are LDS who ARE trying to change things. Trying to change things from inside is difficult when the institution you are trying to change will simply spit you out and call it a day. The feeling of conflict isn't easy to deal with, and it hurts me that people are basically stating that you have to be one or the other. I've known several people who went through the excommunication process, and it is a scary thing.

As for Prop 8, I think ohmissjulie's opinion should be taken into account. I would be upset if my money had been used on something I didn't believe in. If my church had pushed others to vote on something based solely on their religion telling them to. I think if you are paying your tithing, the money shouldn't be used in any way that you believe is inappropriate.
And the fact is that she DIDN'T get a choice in where her money went. The money could have gone towards missionary training or building new temples. LDS members just put faith in their leaders that they will do what is right. This time it definitely is obvious that they didn't do that.

"Feministing - a space where I've always felt relatively safe - attack my Church, misrepresent past skeletons, and suggest ways to "get back at" the Mormons (a few examples in this thread)."

Unless the specific comments that you are referring to have been deleted, I didn't see any comments that talked about "getting back at Mormons". And, in the post that you refer too, entitled "Prop 8. Aftermath" Jessica merely pointed out that the Mormon church bankrolled prop. 8.
Quote:
"the Mormon Church bankrolled a big portion of the proposition's campaign."
And this is true.

Speaking of which, does anyone know if this bankrolling or prop. 8 by the Mormon church is legal? For a tax-exempt religious organization to fund a large portion of a ballot measure in another state? I thought there were rules about these organizations getting involved in politics to this degree. Personally, I don't think any religious organization should be able to play a huge role in politics by influencing the vote in the way they did. Isn't that why we have separation of church and state???

this post has moved me to make my first comment!
I grew up mormon, have a younger brother on a mission, and have watched most of the rest of my immediate family start to slide out of the church to varying degrees in the year since he's been out. I have been inactive for years now, and was motivated to leave in part by my budding adolescent feminism.
The prop 8 involvement has motivated me to finally send in my resignation. It disgusts me.

But what I really wanted to say is right to missjulie:
a member of my family who has left the church after a lifetime (55 years or so)struggled with "culture vs doctrine" for years, and woud offer me advice about "liahona mormons" who followed the general doctrine but avoided the crazy details (the liahona was a weird compass thing from god that just pointed in the general direction,in the Book of Mormon- for everybody else)
but in the end, my family member realized the whole church is "folk religion". the more I researched the foundations of the church in actual history books, not church-ok'd ones, the more I came to realize that Joseph Smith melded a lot of very intriguing ideas from the occult, secret society, and egyptiana fads of the day to invent mormonism. the crazy crap the seminary teachers and bishops and other lay clergy come up with is consistent with that and par for the course. that's the fundamental thing you are going to have to come to terms with in the end. I know people who can overlook all that to value the community and support the church can offer and stay in, but there are certainly those of us who find that totally off-putting and insincere. mormon culture is mormon religion, and though the leadership distances itself from the eternal progression , adam-god and mark of cain doctrines as it tries to become more mainstream, those are still the foundations of the church.
I hope that as you read and learn, you will see that the truth about mormonism strips away your reluctance to face the church doctrine you disagree with and the truth about feminism raises you up and gives you the strength to do what you want. It certainly worked that way for me.

I feel like may of the responses to this post have been overly aggressive. Whatever you stance on Mormonism, I think it's pretty unfair to victimise one person who writes a post trying to explain their feelings on the matter and the dilemma they personally face and heap your anger about prop 8 onto them. While lots of the posts have tried to engage with Ohmissjulie, there have been several which come off as bullying. One in particular which writes off any religion as ridiculous or a 'stinkin load' is really offensive. And comments like 'you're clearly not a feminist' really help develop debate and understanding. So much for the idea of 'community'.

Thank you so much for writing this, missjulie. One of my best friends is LDS and is a feminist, and throughout the years I've known her she's expressed some of the same concerns and fears that you have (albeit often from the opposite side, of being the liberal on her LDS campus). As a practicing Catholic, who is also quite out-of-sync with the church on a lot of their political stances, I too sympathize with your position.

To the haters who've voiced in this thread: It is perfectly reasonable, understandable, and encouraged to disagree with the stances of various religious groups. Hell, the Catholic church has done a pretty good job of oppressing and destroying entire groups of people throughout its history, and that's only changed in manner, not in intent. But to write off every single bit of that religion as meaningless, stupid, or evil- as some of you effectively have- is every bit as close-minded as racism, sexism, or homophobia. And it discounts the valuable contributions that many people of faith make to the movements for social justice.

I practice my faith for personal reasons, not political, and I'm not quiet about my disagreements with my church. Who do you think you are to tell me, missjulie, or anyone else that they aren't a "true" feminist?

Mormonism and feminism don't mix. PERIOD.

If you're a mormon, you're not a feminist.

At this point in your life, you should know better. You've been a feminist for long to know that your religion is horrible and sexist and, well, wrong.

I don't feel sorry for you. At this stage in the game, it's time to grow up and be a real feminist.

You don't have to stop believing in God. I'm not saying that. But mormonism is anti-feminist, through and through. It always will be. Period.

"I am not saying you are not a true feminist. I do wonder how a person that is seeking equality for all would support an organization that specifically targets outsiders and commits true acts of hate."

This. How do you do it? I couldn't.

Mormonism and feminism will never, ever get along. You can't be both. Their ideals and beliefs are COMPLETE OPOSITES.

Basically it'd be like saying you're a Scientologist but believe in psychology. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

People keep saying "I am X," "I am Y," "and I am Z" as if we had multiple personalities that are singular and unique, where X can show up at a dinner party, Y at church, and Z at the polling place. But aren't we more of a continuum where sometimes we're somewhere between, say, X and Y, but lean more toward X at one polar end, other times toward Z at the other end, and sometimes at Y in the middle?

This idea of a continuum is the point of the book and movie Contact by Carl Sagan where he opposed on a continuum the concepts of knowledge and faith, or in other words, what's knowable and what's known. I recommend reading and watching both.

The continuum begs the questions - what is a feminist? Let's hypothesize that continuum opposes Religion with Politics. Is a feminist somebody who is 100% at the polar end? Can somebody who is, say, 85% feminist/15% religious be a feminist? What about 50/50? Where's the arbitrary cutoff for feminism? I think that's a difficult task since there's not a consensus on what it actually means to be a feminist.

I grew up in Utah. All but one of my siblings are still Mormon. But I've been inactive for years and have recently formally "resigned" my membership ("resigned" in quotes because I think it's unfair that I had to "resign" from an institution from which I had no choice of joining.) I was 8 or so when the Mormon church came out against the ERA. Feminists have been disfellowshipped and excommunicated. There may have been women leaders, but they certainly aren't celebrated or viewed in any sort of parity with the male leaders. Women are valued in the church for producing the next generation priesthood bearers and for serving the community (Relief Society). Sure, women are told they will be goddesses in the afterlife. But for the temporal time - decades and decades and decades of a woman's life, however, women must be adrocentric, defer to the male principle/priesthood, and secure temporal blessings and eternal salvation through ardently patrilineal lines. Hm... It doesn't appear that the church thinks there's a continuum at all. If one is a member of the church and the church says there is no continuum, where does that leave you with your political and feminist leanings?

I am, for one, leaning so far toward the feminist polar end that the other religious end is infinitely minute so as to be zero.

As for the Prop 8 question, it looks like the Mormon Church is following suit here. They think one cannot have political views that are separate from religious views (which is, of course, untrue). In that case, marriage is "sanctified" between one man and one woman, and must be so outside their own temple walls for society as a whole. (Historically, marriage has often been between one man and many women, but they don't care to remember history very well, either cross-culturally or within their own.) The real problem is that historically The State determined what is "a union". Contrary to belief, the concept is fluid and means different thing across history. Now, it is primarily as a financial obligation between parties which involves property ownership and anti-fraud contracts (to prevent fraudulently denying property to a second spouse, for example), custodial measures for offspring, and inheritance. Any church can sanctify their "marriages" in front of any god they like, but unless the State recognizes it, it isn't valid for the pragmatic purposes we know it serves in the real world.

If I had not already "resigned" my membership, I certainly would have over Prop 8. I think their marketing campaign at least borders utter misrepresentation of the facts if not total lies. It would be yet another reason to push me to the 0% religious on the continuum. But I'm already there.

Maybe one day we'll all stop living based upon ancient writings from the Bronze Age and Victorian era re-writes.

Having once been a Mormon (for 20 years of my life), I can safely state that in order to believe in and effectively practice the Mormon gospel in its entirety, you likely cannot hope to be a feminist beyond hoping that men respect you in your traditional gender role as a housewife. Otherwise, you are currently a faux Mormon, at best. There is no such thing as gender equality or gender deconstruction in any official sense in the Mormon Church, rather its officially quite the opposite - and to change this would have to be an act of 'God' (the Mormon church only changes their behaviors as a religious organization when God/Holy Ghost tells the Church leaders to). The Church is a patriarchy that was set up and is now run by men, with convenient tidbits of lame excuses for why men and women have the roles that are supported within the church - all shrouded as being 'sound', "because God said so" - but perhaps some reluctantly accept this. After all, who are we to question 'God'?, 'God works in mysterious ways', etc. For all of us who don't think God actually communicates with the president of the Mormon church (let alone believe in a 'God'), this sounds absolutely retarded. If you, as a Mormon, don't like some of the Mormon tenets, then you are questioning God. Questioning God means that you must believe that something is wrong - but nothing is wrong because the LDS church is the true church. Perhaps God is just waiting for the right time to allow gay people into the gospel, just like he waited until the 70s to allow Black people to have the priesthood. Convenient, huh? In a practical sense, however, the Mormon church indeed follows the societal patterns of the U.S., even though they like to deny it and claim that they only change when God tells them to. But why does God only tell them to change things like this when the Church is getting enormous amounts of pressure from other groups in society? I daresay it would be lame of us to claim that the moments of pressure are absolutely not influencing factors in whether or not 'God' tells the Mormon Church to change. Why is it that God's gospel changes with society, in practice, for the Mormon church, but Mormon leadership claims that God's gospel doesn't change with 'the world'?

This whole post kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I understand you are feeling conflicted about participating in two dissonant belief systems and still working out if you can reconcile that conflict for yourself.

The being said, the purpose of your post seems to be that you want to consistently talk about these beliefs you yourself can't reconcile, but without receiving any negative feedback from people that find them to be completely incompatible. I think that's impractical and rather demanding of a community. Holding on to conflicting beliefs is your right, but if you introduce them to conversation, expect that others will probably find that conflict problematic.

Major religions aren't the only thing based in patriarchy. Society and culture as a whole are, too. How do you think the women in more religiously and culturally conservative times than our own felt? Do you think they weren't "real" feminists because they didn't completely cut themselves off from the countries, laws, cultures, and religions that were built up against them?

Some people are fine with shutting ourselves off from the world. Most of us don't. For many, Religion isn't just faith, but also our neighbors, our community, and our culture and society. Not go that much further than simple disagreement and will to change and instead completely abandon all of it is more than some want to do.

Some might argue that the feminists who don't want to give up everything for feminism aren't feminist enough and so our ranks are better for it. I, myself, don't know, but if certain posters here reflect the true tenets of feminism, maybe I've been mistaken and on the wrong path.

Honestly? I don't think it's honest to be an active, dues-paying member of a group that's actively worked on oppressing women, POC and LGBT people for ages and then say, "oh, but I'm really a feminist!" You can keep up both claims, but the goals, beliefs and practical effects of both are opposed.

What the LDS church did to get prop H8 passed was illegal, and I hope to see them appropriately punished for it. And it is sick to deny people rights And yes, OP, you are supporting it and funding it.

And lastly, FWIW, pulling the "poor me, people disagree with what my church does, so I'm so oppressed!" is low, disgusting, and just absurd.

Being anxious and disturbed that “violence” is at your frontdoor is a reality for LGBTQ people every day. There’s hate-crimes and general unfairness every day, some big - some small. I don't have to go back generations and generations to feel anxious, i read yesterdays newspaper.
Being anxious because you realize that your idiotic policies and school of thought affect real people and those people speak up and call you on it: Sorry, no understanding for that.

You can call yourself a feminist all you like, and it doesn’t make you one. Acting or speaking out against what is wrong, does. As long as you can’t do that in your church, you’re a feminist for yourself, and looking out for yourself, and to every other woman in the world whose rights are denied, you represent part of the problem. In my opinion, being silent does make one guilty. If you do speak up, good, don't just do it here.

that said, violence is always bad & you can and should of course belive and do whatever you want as long as no one is harmed, but so can (or can't as is its right now) the LGBTQ community.

has anyone here seen the documentary by Parvez Sharma called "A Jihad for Love?"

http://www.ajihadforlove.com/

it is an excellent documentary on muslims who are struggling to legitimize their sexuality while being muslims. reading some of the posts here, it seems that some feminists would just tell these people to either reject islam or stop being gay, but you know what, then we would have people like the south african imam in the documentary trying to change things.

watch the documentary if you can.

I would just say that the reason to be decent and kind in one's criticisms of others is not because the others deserve decency and kindness. It's because decency and kindness make one more persuasive and the other less defensive.

Absent decency you just get outright war. (though I guess war is one method for social change. . . .)

I'm sure the calculus is different for different issues, but I would bet that the social progress we GLBTers have made in the past two decades is due in large part to our getting under people's skins as insiders, people they know and can't help caring about, rather than any impression that we are outsiders who make a good point.

Of course, I get that some people need catharsis as much as social progress. It's just that I look at the civil rights movement and can't help but be awed by the discipline, kindness, and decency of people who had every moral right to kick the shit out of the dominant class, but didn't approach it that way.

Our history is littered with the denials of basic human rights - and people fighting to achieve them. Most notably for me is the woman's suffrage movement, and the ratification of the 19th Amendment to include women in the right to vote - an amendment I thank God for every election day. For it's only been 88 years now that women have been able to vote - and there are people alive today who remember when they could not. Women fought for and won their right to vote in the War of Roses - members of Congress and supporters of suffrage wore yellow roses to show their support, and the opposition wore red roses to show theirs. I would like to take a note from those brave women's hands.

For the whole article go here

I think that all of you who are railing against her for being a Mormon are ridiculous. So it is your place to tell someone of a certain church that if it is patriarchical, she has to quit attending it if she's a feminist, rather than hollow out a pro-feminist space within her beliefs and encourage others to follow her lead? Why is it any of your places to judge her for her religion, when she's trying to work things out for herself? I never see anyone here on feministing criticizing female Muslims, female Jews or female Christians because their religions are so rooted in the patriarchy. How many religious organizations are pro-choice or pro-GLBT anyway? At least MissJulie is trying.