ah yes, the ever perpetuated tradition of sexism!

blech.

Good for you for speaking up.

For the longest time I could never fathom why otherwise, intelligent educated people would fall back on the fallacy of appealing to tradition to defend something that really serves no useful purpose. Then one day I clued in and realized it's usually just a knee-jerk reaction from someone who suddenly feels like an ass for having defended the indefensible for so long. Maybe they feel stupid for not having come to that realization themselves. Then again maybe they really ARE that stubborn. Who knows.

Whenever people tell me that I should lighten up because it's "just a tradition" I point out that forbidding women to own property or control their own money, and viewing them as the property of their father/husband are also just traditions, shall we continue to honor those? They usually just change the subject after an uncomfortable silence. I don't mind being the buzzkill at the party. Many of the things they say/do at parties like showers are a huge buzzkill to me, but you don't see me complaining.

I just had a similar convo with one of my flatmates. She was talking about how she's afraid her boyfriend will propose in the near future, and that she hoped he would ask her parents because they'd say no on her behalf. I sort of chuckled and said something along the lines of "If any guy was stupid enough to ask my parents for my 'hand' they'd turn him down just because they know how irksome I find that whole tradition." Then she got sort of defensive in the "well, i just think it's sort of romantic" kind of way. I switched off the derision - that's never a good way to reach people after all - and just explained that I found it profoundly unromantic, in that the practice originated as a sort of economic transaction (and I study women's history, so I ought to know). I don't know if I changed her mind, but I think she was at least able to see my point of view without feeling alienated by my differing opinion.

I think girls wear engagement rings and men don't because usually girls like jewelry better. I have no particular problem with that one, although obviously if men want engagement rings or women don't, that's fine too.

But I think the asking the father thing is stupid. I'd tell my boyfriend that if he wanted he could ask for my parents blessing after I said yes, but definitely not permission and definitely not before. Also, he better not just ask my dad because then my mom would be upset. He can ask neither or both.

Every time I voice my opinion about these sexist traditions to my friends, they tell me "yea...that's what it was before, but that's not what society thinks of it as NOW"
UGH
If society doesn't think of it like that now, then why does it even exist anymore??!!

I think that weddings and marriage, like the nuclear family itself, are just so woven into our society and our expectations that a lot people would never think to question their validity, even though there's increasing rates of cohabitation, divorce, "non-traditional families", etc. I think it just freaks some people out.

And I think the meaning of traditions can change over time. When people talk about the meaning of marriage today, it's usually to do with mutual commitment, partnership, etc. Stuff implying equality. When my boyfriend gave me a ring, I know that he meant it as a sign of his commitment to me. That said, traditions like asking a father's permission, or the father giving away the bride, don't play into that at all.

I personally tend to think that marriage is a sham, that it's an institutionalization of inequality, and all that. At weddings, when the priest is talking about the significance of marriage, I sit there thinking "this is such bullshit." Not to mention the consumerism involved and the expense you're expected to go through. And the sheer hassle of wedding planning, My boyfriend, on the other hand, talks about us getting married all the time. He's thought about what kind of food we'll have, he's imagined what my dress will look like, he's designed a ring for me. I can't bring myself to tell him that I'd rather not have a wedding, and certainly not a big "traditional" wedding. He gets this dreamy look when he talks about it. I can totally imagine him sitting, glued to the seat, watching "A Wedding Story". I can't quite understand it. I think it's just what he's always expected would happen.

I was talking with my mum about this a while ago. I told her that when/if (the if made her really mad) I get married, I didn't want my dad "giving me away", my future husband didn't need anybody's permission but mine, and I didn't want to do that creepy thing where the guy pulls off the bride's garters with his teeth?

OH and (semi unrelated point)I said I wouldn't want a wedding ring, because I have funky circulation in my hands and I'm not supposed to wear rings. She said that didn't matter, and I would just have to put up with it!

She got really mad. I tried to explain to her what I felt was wrong with all that stuff, but she just acted like there was something wrong with me.

Me getting married is a long way off, but when I do, I think I'm just going to do it at a courthouse and skip all the dress/church/big ceremony crap...

After having been in two weddings in the last year, the idea of having one myself sends me into crazy twitches.

The worst of it? The proliferation of all these "traditions" just leads to cookie-cutter ceremonies and celebrations that wipe out all individuality. The brides whose weddings I was in thought I was CRAZY for thinking they should write their own vows instead of parroting the same crap that everyone says and half the time doesn't even stand by.

I totally plan on having a private ceremony in front of a judge without the engagement rings, the year of planning, the hemorrhaging of money, the headache of getting my mom to play nice with my dad and stepmom for a day. But in the event that my plans are foiled (as they so often are in life) I will have the most bass-akwards ceremony ever where all the "traditions" are supplemented with things that actually mean something to me.

I want to get married someday. I've been thinking about it a lot lately. I don't care about most of the traditions, but I do want to be proposed to. This is because I know that I want to get married, but I don't want to pressure him into it at all, I want to be sure that he wants to and the best way to do that is to have him be the one who brings it up. I also want an engagement ring, but I definitely don't want a very expensive one. Its function is to sparkle and symbolize the engagement, and cheap rings do that just as well. I'd be nervous wearing something too expensive, I don't want it to be the end of the world if it gets lost. In principle I think my jewelry should cost less than my computer, which actually DOES something.

As for the actual wedding, here's what I want to get out of the day:

1) I want to end up legally married, since that is important in this country.

2) I don't want there to be any religious overtones to it at all, since I'm atheist.

3) I want all my friends and family to be there, and dressed up nicely enough for photos to look good.

4) I want to wear a pretty dress and have the groom wear a nice suit of some sort, so that we look good in photos. And it might as well be a white dress, so that people can recognize them as wedding photos, and I think some wedding dresses are really pretty. But I don't want my dress to be expensive, because even if I had the extra money it seems like a stupid thing to spend it on. Odds are I'll spill something on it by the end of the night anyway. I'd probably look for a wedding dress rental place of some sort, it seems stupid to buy a dress you're only going to wear once.

Other than that, I don't care much about any of the specific traditions.

The idea of asking the father for the girl's hand in marriage always pissed me off. I can see how maybe asking for the parents' blessing AFTER you've already agreed to get married is fine -- remember that scene in Fiddler on the Roof? Blessing is different from permission. -- but my dad doesn't get to decide who I marry. That's my decision. I don't need permission. I'm not his property.

I hate the whole giving-the-bride-away thing. Again, I'm not my father's property, and I certainly won't be my husband's property. Any tradition that suggests otherwise is out.

Engagement rings don't bother me quite as much. I'd like it if there were an equivalent for men, though. I've always hated wearing rings anyway, so I feel like I'm going to have to come up with something original.

I don't think marriage necessarily has to be a "sham" or that it's institutionalized inequality. In some places, there are a laws that make it that way, but really it just seems kind of convenient -- shared property, shared custody of children, and you can visit each other in the hospital, if it comes down to that. This is why gay marriage needs to be legal already.

I don't think that marriage is intended to be institutionalized inequality, but generally speaking, it is. Statistics show that marriage tends to leave women financially vulnerable, since they are the ones who are expected to put their careers on hold whenever anyone in the immediate or extended family needs care. Employers expect the mother, not the father, to take sick leave and time off for the children, so this disadvantages them as well. A perfect example of this is in the striking inequality in the rate that women achieve tenure in academic settings as compared to men. In addition, the woman is expected to interrupt her career to move if the man's career requires relocation. Then of course, there's the expectation that the woman will do the bulk of the housework and childcare even if she works just as many or more hours outside the home than the man. I've been married, and I've been in a committed domestic partnership where we're not married, and the difference in people's attitudes is kind of striking sometimes. I think the biggest difference is that people expect us to be financially independent from each other (more like an equal partnership), and I think that expectation is actually good for women.

When and If I get married, which at this time I don't see in my near future, I don't want an engagement ring or a wedding ring. I don't wear jewelry on the best of days. I also don't like diamonds, I think that they have no personality and they are unimaginative. Besides most of the married men I know don't even wear their wedding rings because of the jobs they have. My own father doesn't wear his unless he's going to a wedding or a funeral.

I also don't think it is appropriate for the man to ask the father if he can marry the daughter, that is a choice to be made strictly between the woman and man. It is the woman's choice wether she wants to get married and if she wants to get married to this man.

However, I would like my father to walk me down the aisle. If only to make sure my nerves don't get the best of me and I turn into the runaway bride. I feel that there is something symbolic about the father handing the bride over to the new husband. To me it's a symbol of moving into a new life. I'm leaving the role of daughter behind and entering the role of wife and mother. But I think it's all about how you feel about the role of wife that counts. If you see the tradition as the transfer of property then that is what you become. If you see getting married as a new partnership of friends and equals then the transformation from daughter to wife means just that. Besides every time my father has walked one of his daughters down the aisle he has cried the whole way. I kind of like to see him cry a little.

I am very much against all of these sexist traditions, especially the fact that women are the only ones who wear something to show they are 'taken' once they are engaged and that the guy is always the one to propose. My boyfriend and I recently got engaged (though no one knows yet). I suggested that we should give each other rings for Christmas and officially tell people we are engaged. It's hard to pinpoint exactly when we got engaged, but I guess it was when I suggested we get engaged at Christmas and he agreed. In the past we had discussed approximately when we would like to get married, so we both have known for a while we would be doing it some day.

He picked out a cool Titanium ring on the internet, and I went in and picked out a ring at a store (I had to go to the 'Anniversary' section to get one that only cost a couple hundred dollars--it's shaped like an infinity sign and I'm a math geek). I do think people will be confused when we tell them at Christmas ("Oh! When did he propose?" etc etc) But we'll deal with that when it comes.

My dad would so not put up with my boyfriend asking his permission. He wouldn't even give an answer; he'd just tell him to ask me. If I'm ready to get married, I no longer need my daddy's permission to go out and play.

I do want my dad to walk me down the aisle, though. I'm pretty sure we won't refer to it as giving me away.

Also, if anyone here is getting married or engaged or anything anytime soon, I suggest visiting indiebride.com. The kvetch area (the forum) has a lot of people struggling with sexist wedding traditions.

I'm not keen on marriage anyway, but I'd ask her parents or not depending on which she preferred. I definitely wouldn't ask JUST her father.

If I ever ask my man to marry me (he's not holding his breath) I'm going to totally bite Dirty Rotten Feminist's idea.

My Dad's cousin lost his ring finger when he fell of a roof and the ring caught on a nail. My Dad's never worn rings since meeting the cousin at a funeral about 30 years ago.

I seem to be at the point in my life where all my friends are getting married or partnering off in some way. I think it's interesting that nobody's that fazed by some couples not having any interest in marriage, they're just together, and that's cool. But the two single girls in the group, there's this expectation that we're not happy as we are and are just pining away for a bf/hubby.

I mentioned to my flatmate a few days ago that I don't intend on getting married, but that I see myself with a partner and kids one day. Since then she's been making little jibes about how I'm never going to meet anyone, I'd better get out there and find the father of my babies. I'm about to strangle her. My life, my way, my speed.

I've decided that if I want a big event to share with my friends/family, I'll celebrate a significant birthday.

I am a feminist, and I am getting married to my fiance in June. Most of the comments here deal with specific traditions and whether or not they should be kept or pitched. What makes wedding traditions so meaningful/encumbering, though, is that they involve one's entire community. If a marriage were only going to affect the engaged couple, it would be an easier task to pitch old patriarchal traditions and bring in the new, but families are a different bird. Cousins are notorious for getting pissed off for unintended slights and aunts for holding decade-long, passive-aggressive grudges because they were not thanked for bringing such-and-such casserole. If Uncle X bought Uncle Y an inferior Secret Santa gift two years ago, that is calculated into Niece Z's holiday shopping plans. Point is, a wedding involves EVERYONE, and families are complicated and delicate animals. Even the most ardent feminist's family may not be remotely interested in genuine dialogue about sexist wedding traditions, and may well refer to the slightest alteration in tradition as Grade A, Liberal Elitist Cow Pie. Thoughtful feminists should want to make weddings reflective of sexual equality and inclusiveness, but at the same time reflect the union of two whole families which may have dramatically different value systems and expectations. Aunt Nancy could probably do without the garter expulsion-by-teeth show, but she might eat her arm when she realizes that the liturgy she is reciting affirms gay marriage as well as straight. Dad may not care about not being asked permission, but might be embarrassed standing in the pews as a hundred guests assume that he is a negligent father whom his daughter didn't want escorting her down the aisle. Or what about intercultural marriages? Surely incorporating the bride or groom's cultural traditions is a different but valid way to be inclusive and promote greater equality, even if it does stem from a patriarchal tradition? A feminist bride might take the groom's name because she doesn't want to bear an abusive or absent father's name anymore, or she may have to have an awkward conversation about keeping her name with the groom's mother. The point is, weddings are about family and community as well as sexual equality, and the hard truth is that some feminist brides may have not-so-feminist families that they love and want to include in the wedding process. It's a matter of weighing institutional change with community, and every feminist's answer will be different because it is personal.

I was just going to write a post in this vein. The bf and I recently announced our "official" engagement (as in, we have a general timeline for the wedding), but there was no proposal, no asking my dad for permission (I think my dad would find that really strange). It's really fucked up to me that people hide behind this "tradition" argument when asking dads/parents for permission to marry a woman - maybe in most situations you already know the dad is fine with it, and maybe you'd ask her anyway even if her dad said no, but you're still infantilizing your future wife by saying she can't make her own decisions about her romantic future.

For me, the issue has been the engagement ring - or lack thereof. I don't really like expensive jewelry to begin with (I'd rather spend the money on a nice honeymoon), and especially not something which symbolizes the man's ability to take care of his future wife - I can take care of myself, thanks. But his coworkers and family literally don't believe me - they think it's something I'm just saying now (I guess since we're pretty poor and I don't want him to feel bad?), but that a few years down the line I'm going to expect it. I'm like, "No, really, I don't want one".

I can't wait to let everyone know that I'm not changing my name, not wearing white, don't really want to be "given away" (if both sets of parents did it, that'd be one thing, but his mom's handicapped, so that's not likely), don't really want a big wedding party, don't want any religious overtones. Frankly, since I hate planning events, I'd be happy to just have a quick 5 minute ceremony and then rent out a restaurant for a reception, but I know he wants a thing - so I'm going to let him plan as much as possible. For all I care, we could have a Star Wars themed wedding on ice.

I have a different question. If it would make your father happy, and not harm you, why would you not allow it?

I agree that the tradition is pointless and stupid, but I'm assuming the reason people do a lot of these things is because of a simple utility calculation. If I were going to propose, I wouldn't see any reason to ask the woman's father, but if she requested that I did, and said it would make her father happy, and upset him if I didn't, why would I go out of my way to upset someone?

Some traditions may be pointless, and I suppose if they will actually offend you and upset you then it certainly makes sense not to follow them. Maybe I'm simply more indifferent than most. If following a pointless tradition doesn't hurt me and makes my family - or future family - happy, I'll go ahead and do it.

My boyfriend/fiancee and I are dealing with this right now. Neither of our mothers changed their names at marriage (in fact, my father changed HIS name) and I don't plan to for professional/feminist reasons. We are, however, doing the engagement ring/parent asking/money hemorrhaging wedding thing though. We both bought engagement rings for each other, with engravings rather than diamonds to make them more personal, and over the holidays we're both planning on asking each other's parents for their blessings. I'll be asking his parents' blessings, and he'll be asking my father and mother both for their blessings. Neither of our families is terribly traditional, but we thought it would be a nice gesture to both, as a way of formally asking to be part of their families.

Well, my Dad passed, so when and if the time comes, I'm going to ask future-DH's mother for permission to marry him.

And anyone getting their teeth near my garter will have them kicked out.

Yeah, I hear you. I was horrified when I found out my fiance talked to my dad prior to proposing, and it still bugs me a little to this day. He insists he wasn't asking for "permission" but rather letting my dad know how and when he planned on proposing, and the reason my mother was not let in on this conversation was because there was absolutely no way she could keep this to herself - she would have blabbed and ruined the surprise, and my fiance really wanted to surprise me. Still, I'm a little miffed. Just discussing the proposal with my dad, not asking for "permission", still seemed really weird, and, well, smacking of patriarchy to me.
I'm not taking part in other "traditions" like having my dad walk me down the aisle and taking my fiance's name, and no one has batted an eye because fortunately, my family for the most part is pretty non-judgemental. In any case, I totally understand what you're saying - I'm not sure why most people get so critical and think you're evil or something when you announce you don't want to take part in these things.

I wonder if there's an element of "just in case" in the back of the mind of some feminist couples who chose to engage these traditions in their weddings. As in; "I know having my groom stomp on a glass/carry me over the threshhold/give me an engagement ring is a tradition rooted in a patriarichal notion of marriage, but I (hopefully) will only have just this one wedding, so I'd better do it right 'just in case' it's good luck."

I think I have an egalitarian notion of relationships and marriage, but I'd just feel weird about leaving family tradtions out of my wedding - regardless of their roots. Making a lifelong commitment to someone in front of Gd and everyone is nothing if not nerveracking. Having these traditions can give needed reassurance that I am "doing it right."

And yeah, it's a lot easier to keep Grandma and the rest happy and supportive when they have a ceremony they can connect to.

My mother told me that when I got married I would "have to" invite all the relatives I don't know and don't give a goddamn about.

I got married in front of a justice of the peace. The *only* people there besides me and my husband were my parents, and they were only there because we needed witnesses. So much for "have to" anything.

My husband, before we got married, sounded me out on the concept of a ring. I told him I would dump his ass if he bought me one. I consider it *extremely* disrespectful to follow a tradition instead of your loved one's expressed wishes.

No one I have ever been willing to date would have asked my father's permission to marry me, and my father would probably have ranted at them that he doesn't own me, what the fuck are they asking him for? if they had. If I *had* had a traditional wedding I'd have probably had my father walk me down the aisle because refusing to do so would have seemed too much like I was rejecting him somehow, but... no traditional wedding, no patriarchal headache! Everything i spent on my wedding consisted of: the cost of getting a marriage license, the money for the parking garage, and the cost of lunch at IHOP afterward. And there wasn't one single thing I had to do because of some fucked up tradition that I disagreed with.

I also kept my name. I do, however, feel sad that I gave my kids his name. I had very good reasons for doing so -- his name is higher in the alphabet than mine, his name is objectively cooler and less overdone than mine, and he had two older children by a previous marriage that I'd been raising since they were toddlers and I didn't want to make them feel like they weren't part of my family the same way the babies were. But I still felt a pang when the health insurance company screwed up and sent insurance cards for Alexander Rogers and Natalya Rogers instead of their real names. I think I did the right thing for the sake of my kids, but my feminist heart still sorrows that I couldn't give my kids my name. (My husband, BTW, would have been totally on board if I had, or if I had given them hyphenated names. It was my decision to give them names to match their older siblings.)

I sorta wish I could have had a really nice party to celebrate getting married. No wedding gown or crap like that, but it would have been nice to dress up in something pretty, and put him in a tux ('cause he looks great in a tux, yum) and get pictures taken, and have friends over to celebrate. But after we'd been living together for years we got married for health insurance reasons, because I was on his insurance instead of the other way around after I was laid off, and I was about to give birth, and I figured the insurance companies would do their best to not pay out for my hospitalization and if we weren't legally married, they could find that out. Since I was 8 months pregnant and exhausted all the time and our house was a mess and so were our finances, a nice party was out of the question. Maybe someday we'll come up with an excuse to have that party.

I decided long ago (when I was 14) that there would be no way in hell that my father was giving me away when I got married. We aren't close, we keep in touch but he didn't really play a role in raising me, so I decided that I would rather be given away by my mother. I used to think of it more as giving a blessing type thing rather than trading of property, but now I've decided that when I get married (and I really want to) that I'm walking myself down the aisle.

The way I see it, a wedding is about two people and two people alone - the couple. The people that I will invite to my wedding will be people that I want to surround me during an important moment of my life, and they will be an audience, not participants. I just want a small wedding and an amazing honeymoon. Some people would say that's selfish, but I don't care - my wedding will be for me, not for them.

Marriage itself is a sexist "tradition," so I'm not sure how one can object to the individual rituals involved and not to the institution as a whole. For feminists considering getting married, I highly recommend Here Comes the Bride by Jacklyn Geller.

I also despise most of these traditions. I also hate it when the only reason someone can give for doing something is that 'it's tradition'. Then they usually can't even tell you the origins of the tradition in the first place. Isn't that what you should really be celebrating when you carry on a tradition? The original meaning of it that has relevance to you, or holding onto something from the past because it has meaning in the present? Well, the origins of almost all of these traditions are sexist and began when women weren't even considered legal human beings, but property. Since I don't want to celebrate that, why carry on a dumb tradition like giving me away (yuck) or asking someone's permission to marry me, as though my compliance is only incidental? I’m also fed up with the ‘respect’ angle that gets batted around whenever this subject comes up. Women who say it is a sign of ‘respect’ for their husbands to take their last name (respect is only a one way street, huh?) or that it shows ‘respect’ to the father in law to be to be asked if you can marry his princess and take her away. Do these people even know what respect really means? Maybe they just don’t have the same definition of respect that I do, who knows.

My absolute least favorite, most hated 'tradition' is the assumption that the woman automatically changes her name to his. And when they announce "Mr. and Mrs. John Smith" my head explodes because it's as if the woman just disappeared altogether.

Look: most people are lemmings. Just cogs in the wheel that follow the life script whether it suits them or not because they desire social approval more than following their own beliefs and desires. Most people simply cannot tolerate not fitting in and even if they agree that the origin of a tradition is oppressive they will shrug it off and say it isn't like that anymore since they don't want to rock the boat. They can’t handle the confrontations with rude people who will demand they explain why they are breaking a mold. Many of these people who think life is a one size fits all proposition end up disillusioned and disappointed yet they continue to try to follow the same path over and over expecting a different result. Pain is the price you pay for not having the guts to be true to yourself.

If you want to follow traditions because you value where they come from and want to see a continuance of norms of the past, be my guest. It’s a free country and I won’t harass you for your choices as long as you don’t bully me about mine.

I absolutely refuse to do anything just because it's "tradition." I always look for a reason to do said tradition, and if it makes no sense, I don't do it.

I fear that our families will freak when my boyfriend and I finally get married. We are both going to get matching engagement rings, I'm not having my father give me away, there will likely be a joint bachelor/bachelorette party, it won't be in a church, there won't be anything religious involved, no bouquet toss/garter throw, my dress will not be mostly white... and the list goes on.

I'm more determined than he is about not being purely traditional, so I imagine there will be arguments. But he's agreed to everything I want thus far, and I've agreed to everything he wants. So here's to hoping no tears are shed over my wedding.

My friend got married over the summer. It was a small, intimate wedding and reception. It couldn't have been more perfect. They got married in a park under a sapling tree.

Her dad walked her down the aisle - I think - but that was really not the "big moment". The thing I remember most, was that in place of the "candle ceremony" at usual weddings, they planted a plant together in a pot.

ANYWAY what I was going to say is that my OTHER friend took a class to be able to marry them, and in her ceremony she made it very personal and informal, including a lot of our jokes. She addressed everyone as "dudes", and the microphone didn't work, but she absolutely refused to use a loud, angry voice at someone's marriage. The brides parents made a big deal about how disrepsectful the ceremony was, how they couldnt hear everything, BLAH and the bride was like Well this is my day and it was perfect!

I asked my uncle if he would give me away at my wedding. I know it's sexist and it's tradition and it's patriarchal, but I'm still doing it. I love my uncle very much, and I'm pretty sure he's a male feminist. He's very aware of patriarchal ideology, sexism, and alike. I have no excuse why I want this. I just do. I don't think everyone should, and I'm not saying I'm following tradition for tradition's sake. I just love my him very much and he loves me, and it would be a nice sentiment.

I wish I'd had a father or a mother, or both, whose opinion on my choice of husband had been worth seeking. I didn't; they didn't much care and had no wisdom to offer if they had.

I wish I'd belonged to a family or a community with more than one person in it who thought my becoming a married woman was worth celebrating. The only one who acknowledged that it had taken place was one of my sisters-in-law.

When my daughter marries, I'm going to treat the event and the ongoing marriage with the respect and attention such things deserve, along whatever lines (traditional or not) seem to have value.

If I chose to marry my lover, all of the previously mentioned sexist traditions will be modified in a feminist way: NO RINGS (and I was really horrified to find out that the Beyonce song says "you should put a ring on it" I though she totally said "you shouldn't put a ring on it!" must have just been my feminist mind hearing things) diamonds, as we know are one of the biggest parts of the wedding industry and are harvested in third world countries by workers (some children even) in horrible conditions. To me, and this is just to me, it's like wearing something that symbolizes slavery.

Next is the "asking the father for permission". My dad would like that and liked it when my brother in laws did it, but I'll be damned if me and my lover ask for permission. Instead, I think a family dinner where you can announce that you're planning on getting married is nice. That way everyone can celebrate and offer their blessings.

Then there's the "giving away". I approached my mom about this once and said that I would want her and my dad to walk with me up the aisle. She started crying. I said, well, you raised me more than dad did (and trust me, I have a great dad, but seriously, she did). I had to stand there as a maid of honor in both my sisters' weddings watching my mom choke up while my dad got to walk my sisters down the aisle. She was just sitting on the sidelines which is DEFINITELY not where she was when she raised us. She was front and center and that's how it should be (if you want to be all traditional); parents accompanying their daughter because they are proud of having both raised such a loving, smart, beautiful woman. And I think the groom should be walked up in the same way.. not bastardly watching with all his men... I also don't appreciate the veil and reveal thing. Why should a woman be covered up? Is she a present?

And did I just not read all the responses thoroughly or did no one mention the "throwing the bouquet"?!?! I absolutely loathe and despise that all the single ladies (and cue the "ladies night" music) gather on the floor and wait eagerly while the bride, throws her flowers, so that they can clammer to catch it (maybe getting into some chick fights... some kind of male fantasy), in the hopes that they too will be so lucky to get hitched. It's absolutely sick. In no way will that be happening at my wedding (if I decide to have one).

And equally bad, but not as often practiced, is the garder belt/single guy thing. Then they have to slide a garder belt up the leg of a perfect stranger (or cousin... ew...). I'm sorry but it's just nasty. Garder belts are for sexy bedroom dress-up, right?!

I know my views are extreme to some, but my family would expect me to rework these "traditions" anyway, knowing that I'm a feminist. Though they might want to see a ring, or catch flowers, they can do that at another wedding. In sum, weddings are a celebration of love so however you see fit to celebrating it, I say do it! And I applaud the original poster for challenging these traditions and speaking up in her own family.

PS- does anyone find it funny that we are planning our feminist weddings?

It is so good to read like minded comments, especially when you come across so many people who like at you like you just grew a third eye on your forehead for disagreeing with “traditions.”

As for the rings, my boyfriend and I have picked them out, and we will both be wearing them as soon as we are engaged. We are both equally committed to eachother, and neither one of us see a reason for him not to wear one until the wedding.

My mother will be walking me down the aisle, because my father has been nothing but bad in my life. If he had ever been a positive person in my life, I am sure I would have had both of them walk me down.

Asking anyone for permission is simply inconsequential. My mom already knows we are going to get married, and we are already living together. Even if she didn't know, my boyfriend knows me well enough that he would never ask someone else (mother or father) for "permission" for me to live my life and make my own decisions for myself.

And if you think the reaction is bad when I tell them that I will not be taking his last name (it seems most people cannot simply fathom the reasoning for this), you should see the reaction when I tell them that our children might have different last names because I want one of them to have my last name. Most people look at me like I have literally just killed someone.

Although I don't agree with something just because it is a "tradition," (in fact, usually I don't) I also try to respect those who choose to follow some "traditions" for their own personal reasons. My best friend has an amazing father, and a not so great mother, and is choosing to have him walk her down when she gets married next fall. I completely understand and respect her choice.

I'm so thankful my father is an atheist. He's told me that if I get married, he doesn't want it to be in a church. I was so relieved when he said that, because I wouldn't want to bother with the whole church thing either. I'd rather spend the money on having a massive party for my loved ones than on a dress I'll only wear once in a building I wouldn't normally go to.

The sexist traditions of marriage are what make it so unattractive to me. I do not know if I will want to get married when I am older or when I would want to get married, but I do know this:

If I do get married I do not want a "traditional" wedding. I would like to believe that the person I may marry will have the same values as me in regards to the sexist wedding traditions. Meaning no engagement ring (unless he has an equivalent), no "father gives me away," no white dress, no last name change. I also do not want a big wedding ceremony. For me, it seems unnecessary. Also I am not a religious person, so I would not want to be married in a church. If we want to celebrate it, why not have a smaller scaled party with just our immediate families? But that is just how I feel. Also, I absolutely DO NOT want to get married until gay marriage is legal throughout this whole country. It is something I feel very passionate about. I do not think it is fair at all, but that is another topic to get into later.

Those are my values and I feel very strongly about them. I hate when people tell me I am crazy, or when I say I have never dreamed of my wedding (I really never have... when I was younger I never "played wedding.") some women tell me I am nuts and they think about it everyday (that is a few I have met). I also had someone tell me I need to "give in and conform." EXCUSE ME!? Why should I conform to something I don't believe in?

I respect everyone who sticks to what they value, even if we don't agree just do what makes you happy and not let others opinions influence you or alter your beliefs.

I wish this thread had been up before my husband and I got married last June! Planning our wedding was so stressful for me mostly just because of all the sexist traditions I wanted to avoid. My husband gave me an engagement ring because we got our signals crossed. I wasn't dying for a ring, but didn't really care either way, and he had always expected to buy his fiancee a ring. So he did. It's a ruby, because we were both absolutely opposed to buying blood diamonds. I dreaded having a wedding--I wanted to wear a blood red dress with a slit up the thigh and get married at the courthouse, but my husband is an only child, and his mom was so unbelievably set on us having a wedding. If they hadn't offered to pay for it, we wouldn't have had one, but it meant so much to her that we did. We didn't do any bouquet/garter stuff, because that creeps us out, but my dad did walk me down the aisle...because I was afraid of falling down the steps in my heels if I did it alone! Which is silly, I know. But in that instance I sacrificed my ideals to ensure that I wouldn't publicly embarrass myself. I didn't change my name, though my husband and I plan to change our names mutually in January. Our justice of the peace was awful, though. We're both atheists, and she introduced a bunch of Christian rhetoric into our ceremony. She also assumed I was taking his name and introduced us after the ceremony as "Mr. and Mrs. Husband's Last Name". SO AGGRAVATING! I'm glad we had a wedding just because it was nice to see so many people we hadn't seen in so long, and it was a fun day, but I'm not sure it was worth all the stress and explaining to people why we were/weren't doing certain things.

My friend once made a big deal about buying a ring that was $700,000 dollars. When I laughed at her she got angry and demanded to know what I thought was funny. This is the conversation we had:

Her: Everyone knows a fiancee should to spend three paychecks worth of money when he's buying an engagement ring.

Me: THREE?!? Are you for real? You could buy a house for that amount, a really nice one!

Her: Well what do you think is a decent amount to spend?

Me: I dunno, less than $200 dollars.

Her: Two–hundred?!? Why would you settle for a cheap husband?

Me: Nevermind

I wish I could just make her understand.

I have to admit I've had a wedding fantasy since I was about 11 - going to Las Vegas and eloping, and that's exactly what we did, Elvis walking me down the isle and the whole bit (I chose to wear an off-white dress even though we'd been living together since the night we met 6 years earlier). My husband is a feminist like I am; I didn't want an engagement ring, didn't change my last name, etc. The interesting thing is, my dad and my father-in-law were both great with the whole thing. They thought it was cool. It was the reaction of some female relatives that was so disturbing. Upon seeing my wedding pictures, my very conservative aunt said, "Oh, I see you wore white," and gave me a withering look. My mother-in-law was the worst (my own mother died when I was one and my feminist dad never remarried). My mother-in-law was completely appalled when I kept my last name. She insisted on sending out announcements to friends and family after the wedding, having them printed up herself and asking my dad for addresses. On the announcements, she purposely MISSPELLED my last name (she'd known me for 6 years, sending me many birthday cards and Christmas cards with my name spelled correctly). Imagine my family getting these announcements with their own names misspelled. My father was speechless. He called her and said we needed to get these announcements (that we never wanted anyway) fixed and re-sent. She told him that no one in her family cared how my last name is spelled, and that if he wanted to correct it he could have his own printed up and sent out with the correct spelling to his own family. She continued to use my husband's last name as my name until she died several years later. Interestingly, my husband has a younger sister who was also very angry that I hadn't changed my name. When she got married a few years later, she took her husband's last name (fine with me!) but continued to address me by my husband's last name. She suddenly stopped and began using my correct name when she was divorced (I would love to ask her how she likes having that asshole's name now).

My husband and i eloped a few months ago and people either think it's awesome that we did it that way or act like we murdered something. (unfortunately my own mother falls in the latter category). my main reason for eloping was to just completely avoid having to deal with any of these "traditions" that both of us find so sexist and repulsive. my amazing husband took awhile to warm up to the idea of ever getting married at all--because he was so uncomfortable with all the traditions the marriage ceremony usually supports. to me, there is seriously not one single aspect of a usual wedding that DOESN'T support sexism, reckless and dangerous-to-the-world consumerism, ect., and i just couldn't deal with it. we are both really glad we did get married and that we did it the way we did, because it really did allow us to create our own context for what we believe marriage means (and the female judge who married us at the courthouse gave a beautiful non-religious service that completely reflected what we felt without speaking to us beforehand-an added bonus!) . but i do sometimes wish i had had the courage to go through with a big wedding that had reflected all our ideas to our friends, family, and the world. it's so sad that the very idea of that exhausted me to the point that i couldn't even contemplate it. i just knew what a fight it would be. And after some of the reactions we've gotten, and after going through our best friends wedding and watching them compromise so much of what they believed for their families, i think we did the right thing. Maybe someday our wedding can be about the individuals joining together, not outdated and harmful traditions and wierdly validating other people. It's a good example of how far we still have to go in so many areas.

Sorry, i've been reading through all the comments and wanted to add a few thoughts to my post above. I was thinking about the concept of culture/community that was widely discussed in some previous comments here, and wanted to add that my husband and i are planning a series of parties with friends and family to celebrate our wedding. the reason: we love our friends, family, our community. we are part of them, and want to share our relationship with them. the time we celebrate with them is their time, our chance to show us how we feel. our wedding was OUR time, not theirs. whatever the tradition, in whatever the community, if it supports something wrong, then it's just not right, and i don't believe it should be compromised to or supported (i really don't mean to judge here. I compromise with my family constantly every time i go back to my hometown and we talk about basically anything political or idealogical). it seems pretty black and white to me. If we had important cultural traditions having to do with marriage, we would have supported that, but we didn't. So we chose not to support sick and tired traditions in a community (and by community here i mean kind of a generic, mainstream community and it's concept of marriage) that is being made sick by these traditions. i think it's important to draw the line and acknowledge that honoring tradition is not always the same as honoring culture. culture is an individual thing and there are so many wedding traditions that I am not aware of that would be important to somebody out there because of culture. but that is not the same as participating in a tradition just for traditions sake. including your community doesn't have to come at the wedding and doesn't mean your marriage lacks context. i find it disturbing how much validation people get in participating in other peoples weddings. usually it's not healthy, and it does not represent culture or community. i feel like i'm just rambling here; i hope my point is at least kind of clear.

There's one issue here that no one has addressed yet and I just have to add my thoughts. I'm a little troubled that when everyone lists the wedding traditions they won't uphold because they are a feminist, they include a religious ceremony on that list. I'm a feminist and an intellectual at a seminary (which is no easy thing let me tell you) and I will not deny that the Bible or the church in general are sexist. This does not mean, however, that God is sexist; it simply means that God has been primarily interpreted by men over the past several millenia, just like everything else. While I will be bucking most of the above named traditions for similar reasons, my boyfriend and I are choosing to have a religious ceremony because we wish to honor God and the place he/she/it holds in our lives and in our relationship. We believe that men and women (and everyone in between) are created in the image of God, and that God intends us to live in loving community with one another. For my boyfriend and I, that loving community will be marriage. Now this does not mean that you have to have a religious ceremony if you are atheist/agnostic, of course. But one can certainly have a religious ceremony and be a feminist--because I think God is one too!