A little while back there was a thread here on feministing there was a post about Max Hardcore's conviction (here ). Someone mentioned a new film called "The Price of Pleasure ", just recently I discovered that it was viewable online. I discovered a site run by the Media Education Foundation , which I hadn't heard of until just now, Bell Hooks, Susan Fauldi (and others) are on the advisory board (awesome! ) anyway, the full-length documentary can be viewed there if anyone is interested.
The link to the film is HERE (click on "view full length program")
I'd be interested to hear what other think if anyone happens to watch the film and wants to share thier opinion. I'll probably post some comments in the thread a little later, but right now, without providing any commentary from me, I just wanted to simply let people know this film is there if interested.
"The Price of Pleasure" (Summary ):
Once relegated to the margins of society, pornography has emerged as one of the most visible and profitable sectors of the cultural industries, assuming an unprecedented role in the mainstream of our popular culture at the same time that its content has become more extreme and harsh, more overtly sexist and racist. This eye-opening and disturbing film tackles the complexity behind this seeming paradox, placing the voices of critics, producers, and performers alongside the observations of men and women as they candidly discuss the role pornography has played in shaping their sexual imaginations and relationships. Honest and non-judgmental, The Price of Pleasure moves beyond the liberal versus conservative debates so common in the culture to paint a myth-busting and nuanced portrait of how pleasure and pain, commerce and power, liberty and responsibility have become intertwined in the most intimate area of our lives. An ideal tool for initiating classroom discussion about this notoriously difficult subject.
[Directed by Chyng Sun & Miguel Picker]
Note : (From the site): "Viewer discretion advised: contains violence, nudity, and sexual imagery."
People who aren't interested in seeing "The Price of Pleasure", however, might be interested in viewing some of the other films on the site, which include documentaries under the categories of race, gender, health, politics, consumerism, etc.
Her is the actual URL for "The Price of Pleasure" is here just in case you can't link from the above links.
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Sorry, don't know why the full URL didn't show up...It's here: http://www.mediaed.org/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=235
i'm in favor of legalizing sex work and porn, but regulating it heavily. but watching the preview of this documentary was really tough - i wanted to throw up at the end.
do you think that if prostitution was legal, the demand for porn would lessen? and if porn was regulated at least from the health angle, then would we be seeing some of the disgusting images like in the preview?
i'm also not sure whether porn places more sick ideas into abuser's heads, or if they are just reflecting what exists already, but my guess is that it works both ways.
it's impossible for me to imagine how some of these acts turn anyone on.
"do you think that if prostitution was legal, the demand for porn would lessen?"
Considering both of those things have been around for the entirety of recorded history and probably before (including times when prostitution was legal, iirc), I doubt it.
I didn't watch the video, and I don't know much about hardcore disturbing porn, but my instinct is no. For some people they may be related, but I think there are many people who enjoy porn and would never consider patronizing a prostitute. For example, lots of couples in relationships watch/read porn together and separately, but would never consider sleeping with someone else. Porn is about fantasizing, not about actually doing those things.
I realize the video is tough, I think it does genuinely try to be fair by trying to include many different voices as possible. At the end, I found myself asking a lot of questions, and seeing very few answers from the film. I think however, that was partly the intention...not to make a conclusion for people by trying to give them answers, but putting information out there so that people would start asking the right questions.
Towards the end of the film, the images get harder and harder to watch, and you hear one porn directer looking genuinely fearful of where the industry is going. He says, bluntly, "I think the future is violence" (I forget exactly the quote) but the implication he makes is that it is not going to be a good direction. The images shown are horrible. What was really powerful was hearing that porn producer saying that, seeing the images of violence and then having it juxtaposed by part of our current conversation on torture. The film goes on to list what the government considers torture, along with images that clearly are depictions of those acts of torture, but sexualized and turned into a product.
I like the critique on consumerism, and that part of the problem is unchecked, unfettered market...and how eventually, everything in a capitalistic society, if left unchecked, will be commodified and turned into a tool for profit. One of the few implications that the film did make, is that this is what has currently been happening in the pornography industry.
I'll just talk about pornography here, for now, I know prostitution is closely linked...But currently porn is legal and prostitution isn't. I think that if pornography is properly regulated, with an emphasis on protecting women, laws against torture and certain dangerous acts (i.e. ones that can cause health risks) than it can potentially become a model for how to go about making sex work in general safer. There's a lot of cultural/political/economic baggage around pornography though. For example, one ex-actress explained that she has a problem with how so many people defend pornography as being a free choice, yet at the same time don't recognize the economic situation that is the reality for many women. She says there is something wrong with the fact that for many women the options are so limited, that basically she can choose between a minimum wage service job, or sex work. She says that it's not a real choice when you have so few options available. From the interview of actresses in the film, it does seem that the primary motivation is monetary, yet still some people continue to advocate that even the most violent porn, is somehow a form of female empowerment. Of course there's many comments from pornographers who have very backwards views of women. For example, one said that "women like to be dominated by and subservient to men"...
"if prostitution was legal, the demand for porn would lessen?" No, I don't...I don't really have an argument as to why, it's just a feeling I have, perhaps someone else would be more knowledgeable about this.
"i'm also not sure whether porn places more sick ideas into abuser's heads, or if they are just reflecting what exists already" There is one quote from a guy who talks about a particular sex act that he originally had no interest in...after he started watching porn, he became more and more obsessed with this particular sex act...and by the end it was not possible for him to orgasm without thinking about this particular act. I think porn is both a reflection of culture, and a producer of culture. I don't think for example, many people would view "the waterboarding of women" as erotic, however the film showed that this (violence/torture) is the direction that porn seems to be going, and indicated that in fact it is already there.
I think if anything the conclusion just means to show the urgency of this issue. That we need to start questioning things, asking questions and finding solutions to those questions, and possibly there needs to be an intervention, maybe a "cleaning house" of corrupt/abusive men, and regulations put on the industry. I think part of the change will need to start with the women in the industry because it will be important to listen to and support them, but it's also important that consumers change as well (men specifically)...I think women need to Unionize and be given the resources to do so (something the the porn executives would clearly be opposed to, as the more expendable the women, the more power they hold over the workers) I think there's also the obvious idea that women need to be given more choices economically. A fair and living wage should be a right. Ideally, no woman would feel like they had to go into the porn industry because they desperately needed the money.
I agree with you that I have trouble seeing how the porn industry defends some of it's videos, especially the overtly racist and misogynistic stuff...the end of the film is what really scared me because although I had watched a sampling of "hard core" porn several years ago, sort of as a study as to what some men were watching, I find it shocking and sad, that the industry, in a quest for ever more taboo and shocking material, has actually started promoting torture. It's really really disturbing.
I'm sure there are people that will disagree with me, and many of the things the movie portray. I've read criticism by some people that the movie is indeed biased. However, I reject the notion that questioning the pornography industry, questioning the content, the treatment of workers, the culture of consumerism and commodification, is "anti-sex".
I have much more thoughts on this but right now I think this comment is long enough - I'm interested in what others think as well...but perhaps I'll post more later as the conversation continues.
Thanks for being brave enough to tackle this one.
Full discloser: I have only seen the trailer. I have not had to opportunity to see the movie yet...actually I don't think I can stomach it right now.
But I wanted to chime in on some general thoughts raised by the comments.
No matter how you feel about the issue of sex work including pornography, I have found that 99% of people seem to agree on 2 thoughts: How to improve the situation for women who choose to work in the industry (even if we may not agree with the choice) and how prevent those who do not choose the work from being forced into it.
I think the porn industry and the recent turn of events with the prostitution situation in W. Europe for example, brings up some valid worries about the fact that the sex industry where legal, tends to be under-regulated. There are some exceptions but it's likely in part due to things like demographics (e.g. places with small populations) and geography (places relatively inconvenient for smugglers).
And while regulation is better than nothing in most cases, it's nowhere near acceptable. So why is the industry under-regulated and can it be fixed?
Ok so, in doing a little porn research I found that one of the barriers to unionization and better safety laws in the USA, such as increasing use of condoms, is the very real possibility that the California-based porn industry will simply leave the state or go underground when faced with tougher requirements. Similarly, producers have bragged about setting up shop in Europe to avoid obscenity charges and other restrictions. So the threat is real.
On the consumer side, most viewers seem to feel that consensual behavior should not be restricted. They are also drivers of demand.
But one of the sticking points in this conversation is that a lot of people cannot agree on what consensual sex actually is. We have had debates about drunken sex, having sex with a partner in a coma, rape when sleepwalking, sex obtained by non-physical coercion, etc., and unfortunately very intelligent people often through no fault of their own cannot come to an agreement on this.
Lastly, on content:
I have heard some in the industry (including a dear friend of mine) argue that the outrageous and violent stuff is simply too minor to be concerned with in the grande scheme of things. They point to the fact that the top selling pornos are the rather tame, blockbuster productions meant to appeal to wide audiences, like "Pirates".
But the thing is that in the information age anyone is a consumer or can pretend to be one. And while I see that there are offerings for every tastes, don't insult my intelligence here. The dark stuff is pretty damn popular and the trend is toward more extreme stuff.
So what's going on? After some thought I can almost understand the violence (not the torture). I'm not saying I condone it, but I've thought about all of the violent sports and the appeal of bloodbath mainstream movies like '300' and horror flicks.
So let's get to the bottom. Because when I researched violent stuff, it was overwhelmingly violence against women. It's overwhelming women being verbally assaulted. And the racism seems to have a huge draw. The themes about tricking a woman into sex enjoy considerable popularity. These are all glaring references to inequality.
So I have to ask, fetishes aside, is there something inherently sexually appealing about inequality? And if so how do you tame an industry that has put a price tag on it and packaged it up for the masses?
(and don't give me the feminist backlash theory because there is plenty vile shit coming out of more traditional countries where women have made fewer social gains).
a couple of weeks back, alternet ran an article which i thought was thought provoking:
http://www.alternet.org/sex/104863/the_great_porn_misunderstanding%3A_pornography_is_mostly_about_fantasy%2C_not_reality_/
there were several points/questions raised in the discussion which i thought were important:
in many poor/traditional countries, where porn is definitely not mainstream, or common, or as variable as they are in america, violence against women is very entrenched. sexual harassment on the street and rape, then victim blaming are all too common. this makes me think, vile pornography might give men/abusers new ways to torture their victims, but the will to do it already exists. the problem is, porn makes it seem like women like to be degraded and tortured, so perhaps viewers who don't necessarily want to harm women think that degradation is ok. and as meenecat replied to my first comment, there are guys who get certain ideas into their heads from porn.
one point, i think made by robert jensen, is that even women who find sex work "empowering," find the money from sex work empowering, not the work itself. i wouldn't believe there's even one sex worker who finds the degrading acts often seen in porn empowering. furthermore, most actresses don't really make that much money (from the transcript of the documentary).
another point was raised by one of the comments from the alternet article, not the article itself - that a lot of people (not necessarily on this forum) are concerned mainly with the effect porn has on viewers, and not concerned enough about porn actresses. of course we have to be concerned about what porn is doing to the viewers, but it's even more sickening to think about what the actresses are going through.
it seems very likely that if we regulate porn more in america, the producers will move elsewhere. i read in a women's studies book once that one guy runs a torture chamber in vietnam, and viewers can pay online to see women being tortured by methods the viewer demands. sex trafficking also increases when cities/countries legalize sex work. we can see the parallel in factory work too - western companies have moved their substandard wages and horrible working conditions to countries with hardly any regulations. i don't know if there's any way to impose restrictions on porn producers irregardless of where they operate - or at least encourage other countries to regulate porn/sex work the same way.
while i wish i could watch all of "the price of pleasure," i can only watch the preview online. i read the transcript, however, and that gave me some more information. i've read a book called "listening to Olivia," which details the abuse that many strippers/street prostitutes face in america. i'm not trying to change the topic in this discussion, just mentioning a resource i found valuable.
Thoughtful comment, I want to reply to a few things you and the article brought up. I think the Michael Bader article makes some glaring assumptions that just aren't true...and again, another long comment by me.
A) Bader seems to imply that people criticizing the porn industry are automatically anti-porn. He talks about the "the woman or anti-porn critic watching it and imagining it being done to her"...well again, I refuse to believe that taking a critical look at the pornography industry makes you "anti-porn" or "anti-sex" Again this argument only serves to stifle an important conversation that this country needs to be having. It serves to silence, and it serves to make illegitimate any and all critiques. This is not fair, and not intellectually honest on the part of Bader.
B) Bader asserts that most of the women come to enjoy even the most extreme degrading acts, and in fact most of the women eventually come to enjoy participating in their own degradation and humiliation. The message sent here is that women in general like and want anything that men can do to her...enforcing the idea that men should have access to whatever women they want, whenever they want...and women of course are to be the passive receptors of this male supremacy. The foundation of Borden's argument is that if women were not enjoying it, than they would be screaming and crying and upset. To Borden, I would say he needs to watch the clip from the movie, which talks about ATM videos ("ass to mouth" - where women are made to eat their own feces by having something put in their butts and then in their mouths) recently, the film says, ATM sex has had an explosion in popularity. The film-makers of observe a scene being made, where the woman, in saying her lines and presenting herself in the role she was supposed to be playing kept to the "women as objects of degradation" theme very well. However, she was clearly NOT enjoying it. She stopped the filming to say how disgusting it is and then runs to the bathroom to wretch into the toilet. This is one example, but I'm sure there are many more. So, I find Borden's argument hard, pretty much impossible, to swallow, the idea that the majority of women enjoy being objects of degradation and humiliation and enjoy participating in acts such as ATM, drowning, eating human excrement, or having sex with animals, denies women the existence of women's own sexuality on her terms. I'm not saying there are women who don't or can't possible enjoy certain acts and humiliation...I'm simply saying I find the idea that "most women enjoy it" to be hard to swallow. Especially after seeing the segment on torture in the film- literally a page out of the CIA handbook on torture being used as titilation.
"it seems very likely that if we regulate porn more in america, the producers will move elsewhere."
This is a very legitimate concern. It is true that many pornographers would move to unregulated countries or black markets. This is the effect that regulation generally has on business. The key is to strike the best balance between free-market ideals and regulation that is smart and extends protections. I think there are ways of counteracting the "pornographers leaving en mass to other countries".
First, porn will continue to sell in the U.S. no matter what, and we as a government and citizens are capable of controlling access to that huge profitable market. Pornographers would pay dearly in order to maintain their access. The U.S. could decide not to import or sell or make illegal to possess any pornography by a company that employs abusive conditions, that uses torture, or that used coercion and misrepresentation of what would be required of workers. We could decide not to sell any pornography whose companies discouraged or did not allow their workers to be members of a union (unions would need to be supported and organized to make sure they are strong, have bargaining power, and that members are allowed and encouraged to join, there are many ways to create incentive for this)
Of course in the beginning many of these ideas would present challenges - for example how would you know if a condition is abusive or employs torture or coercion? Well unions and it's members would play a big role in this, but also the U.S. government could work with other governments in enforcing working conditions, just like they would at any other job site...the government could possible set up a special office of inspection for the sex and pornography industry.
Another different technique would be to create international laws that could then apply everywhere pornography is legal or sold. (local government who still wish to keep pornography illegal could still decide to do so), still, the international community could agree on some very basic things: no torture, no abuse, no use of animals, children, incest, blood exposure (for health and transmission of disease risk), coercion or abusive environments, workers must be allowed to form and join unions, employers or government must provide free HIV/STI testing services-whatever method of providing these services can be worked out but the key is that all workers must have free access to testing and counseling, along the same lines workers have a right to protect themselves, I don't think an employer should be able to force a worker to go without a condom or barrier if the worker wishes to use one. (in this day and age, condoms can always be digitally removed from the image if the pornographers so choose to do so, but they should absolutely not be able to force their workers to put their own health at risk to that they can make a profit)...These are just some basic random ideas, again I'm sure women within the industry could come up with a complete list, and should definitely be part of creating a solution.
Many of these solutions should be aimed directly at placing more power into the hands of sex-workers, by the creation of unions, access to testing and counseling, and the right to engage in safe sex and protect oneself, the right not to be abused, tortured, and coerced, among other basic rights. Of course we need to focus on workers, because I think once given the tools, workers, working for reform from inside the industry could become a huge force of change as far as where the industry is going, how people are treated, how abuse&mistreatment of workers will be prosecuted...In other words, imagine a situation where instead of government prosecuting "obscenity cases" an empowered sex workers union, made up of it's constituents, who vote and have a real say, had the ability to bring about lawsuits challenging the abuse committed by Max Hardcore, rather than his "obscenity".
One more thing: "a lot of people are concerned mainly with the effect porn has on viewers, and not concerned enough about porn actresses."
I believe, that if we support the workers, if workers have more power, real power-the power to prosecute abuse, torture, harassment, coercion and misrepresentation and are given more say in general...I think many people's concern with the effect of pornography on viewers would partly be corrected...perhaps the industry would not be to tend to become more and more extreme as years go by. Perhaps convictions and a sort of "clearing house" of the most notable abusive studios and productions would make pornographers think twice before engaging in certain despicable actions and then calling them a "product" or "entertainment".
Not that I agree with obscenity cases, but when GW Bush first took office, many of the major studios refused to push the "extreme hard core" genres that we see being sold everywhere today. The reason was a fear of prosecution for obscenity cases. However, I would not like to have this effect for obscenity, but I would like to have this effect for abuse, violence and torture, among other unacceptable things.
I think some of these reforms are logical, for example; unions...the challenge is breaking misogyny's strangle hold on an industry that doesn't even view women as human beings, but simply products for sale, profit, and disposal.
Ok so I had a chance to read the transcript. It was pretty much what I had expected. Yikes.
I will say that I'm pretty skeptical about industry reform. All of the ideas put forth are thoughtful but seem to be impractical on a large scale.
These changes would simply not be in line with the current trend of roguish capitalism where industries tend be under-regulated to a point of crisis, the marketplace is increasingly volatile, and where the trend is globalization instead of protectionism and a movement away from organized labor.
I really think that what we are seeing today is the pinnacle of industry regulation. Instead, the next big advances will most likely be in technology, i.e. more reliance on video game graphics technology to allow producers to further push limits by circumventing the constraints of the human body and by allowing for an interactive experience. Yikes.