I know some people might not read this. And I know that some people might flame me. But dammit! I'm mad! No. I'm Beyond mad. I'm furious! Samhita has often blogged about her weight issues and they are something I can much relate to and today's Adipositive post wasn't that different. Usually I find the whole comments section along the same line around hatred and bigotry on fat-hating. Only that not what was there. There were comments of that bigotry and hatred. Okay. No big deal. Those typically don't bother me. I don't invest much in blog comments. Too much time and energy. Until I read the quote:
"How about we do smoking acceptance next? Or how about alcoholic or abusive partner acceptance?"
Whaa???
Suddenly my fatness will lead to abusive partners? *tries to follow logic, but brain explodes*
I'm 5'9" and I"m 240 lbs. *gasp of horror* Yes. You read correctly. Two-hundred and forty fucking pounds. Most of it is on my belly. Some on my ass. It's basically everywhere except my calves and scalp. To clarify, yes I do have body image issues. There are days where I think, "If the fat were gone, my problems would be over," but I know that isn't going to happen.
So being fat is unhealthy. Okay. I'll give you that. Being overweight is unhealthy according to every medical science journal. Fine.
So what?
Why is this bad? How does if affect you? Why should you fucking care whether I'm healthy or not? I don't know you. I certainly don't care about your health. You want a bag of chips? Go ahead and eat one. Have some soda and chocolate while you're at it. I couldn't care less. But don't you try and tell me I should fucking lose weight or that I'm unhealthy/lazy/ugly/unnattractive/anything derrogatory. Seriously. Don't. And don't go on about health. How's your health? Did you run out of breath taking the stairs? Or did you take the elevator? How many miles have you walked this week? How many hours did you spend being sedentary? What was the fat content of your last meal?
If you're going to talk the talk, then walk the walk.
And by the way....
Fat people can be healthy. Runners can have heart attacks. And naturally thin people can be as unhealthy as the next. So I don't want to hear it. I'm fat and I'm proud. Fat haters, get over yourself.
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For some people, weight is related to healthy problems, but judging someone's health based solely on their appearance alone is just another form of unfairly profiling someone based on nothing other than one's own stereotypes and assumptions. I'm saddened to see such decidedly non-size-acceptance kinds of comments were made here of all places. Thanks for speaking up, aas711.
Not impressed. "Fat acceptance is you, seeing me, as sexy, bold and beautiful AS a fat person." Telling people they need to change their subjective view of what's sexy from fit to fat, on a public blog which you presumably hope reaches a wide audience, puts the issue out there for discussion. If you only want supportive responses telling you that you're dead on, don't blog for the public, send emails to people you already know agree with you.
"So being fat is unhealthy. Okay. I'll give you that. Being overweight is unhealthy according to every medical science journal. Fine.
So what?
Why is this bad? How does if affect you? Why should you fucking care whether I'm healthy or not?"
Aside from general human compassion, there's the fact that health insurance is the fastest rising cost in my and most people's budgets. I have a hard time imagining that the writer didn't think people would or should care, since she did write it and post it.
"Did you run out of breath taking the stairs? Or did you take the elevator? How many miles have you walked this week? How many hours did you spend being sedentary? What was the fat content of your last meal?"
I walk about 20 and bike about 200 miles a week. I have a bad relationship with food and I hugely, unhealthily overeat and if a time comes when I can't keep up a high level of exercise I will have to drastically cut my consumption or I'll balloon. Since you asked.
"If you only want supportive responses telling you that you're dead on, don't blog for the public, send emails to people you already know agree with you."
You know, with the amount of comments arguing against you, I think you're in the minority. Just a thought.
I hadn't realized Feministing was quite so committed to deferring to the majority opinion. Declaring minority opinions prima facie invalid would be a brilliant strategic move for feminism, don't you think?
I'm not truly affiliated with Feministing. I just happen to blog and comment here. You're also arguing against yourself with that comment I just quoted from you. You said that the blog was in the minority and shouldn't be blogged about at all. Well, if your comment is in the minority, by your logic, should you not be commenting?
Your argument was pretty much rude and selfish. Giving the health care argument just shows that you don't really care about fat people's health. You just care about it affects you. Here's something, sick people don't decided the cost of health care. The companies do. Your reasons hold no water. They are selfish, nigh bigoted. And you can snark at me all you want, I'm not wasting any more energy towards people like you.
"You said that the blog was in the minority and shouldn't be blogged about at all. Well, if your comment is in the minority, by your logic, should you not be commenting?"
I said no such thing.
"Your argument was pretty much rude and selfish. Giving the health care argument just shows that you don't really care about fat people's health. You just care about it affects you."
Yes, because when I cite two reasons, obviously I must only believe in one of them.
"Here's something, sick people don't decided the cost of health care. The companies do."
My mistake. How could I have thought that the cost of providing care had any role at all in the cost of insurance. Obviously I should have realized that actually treating people costs nothing, and insurance premiums are arbitrarily decided by HMOs.
Not impressed. "Fat acceptance is you, seeing me, as sexy, bold and beautiful AS a fat person." Telling people they need to change their subjective view of what's sexy from fit to fat, on a public blog which you presumably hope reaches a wide audience, puts the issue out there for discussion. If you only want supportive responses telling you that you're dead on, don't blog for the public, send emails to people you already know agree with you.
"So being fat is unhealthy. Okay. I'll give you that. Being overweight is unhealthy according to every medical science journal. Fine.
So what?
Why is this bad? How does if affect you? Why should you fucking care whether I'm healthy or not?"
Aside from general human compassion, there's the fact that health insurance is the fastest rising cost in my and most people's budgets. I have a hard time imagining that the writer didn't think people would or should care, since she did write it and post it.
"Did you run out of breath taking the stairs? Or did you take the elevator? How many miles have you walked this week? How many hours did you spend being sedentary? What was the fat content of your last meal?"
I walk about 20 and bike about 200 miles a week. I have a bad relationship with food and I hugely, unhealthily overeat and if a time comes when I can't keep up a high level of exercise I will have to drastically cut my consumption or I'll balloon. Since you asked.
"Aside from general human compassion, there's the fact that health insurance is the fastest rising cost in my and most people's budgets."
Isn't this a problem with the system, rather than with the individuals within the system? Being from Canada, where we have an excellent, and (mostly) socialist (egads, I said it) health system (it isn't perfect, by any means, but people here have easier access to health care in comparison), I really feel that comments such as these play into a sort of "divide and conquer" strategy. It is hegemonic, really, to take the attention off of the failing system and to place it on a certain sector within the system. I align this with the attitudes I commonly see amongst my peers, the ones that blame people on welfare for rising taxes- it the welfare system that fails, that keeps people in a cycle of poverty, it is useless to blame those in need of the support.
Anyways, I'm not within the American Health Care system, so perhaps my views don't count. Who knows.
You still pay for health insurance, you just do it with taxes. If some people's life style choices are raising the cost of covering them, then either you're going to pay more or receive less as they consume more resources.
Indeed, but a greater portion of the Canadian population has access to health care. You've also completely missed my point, that blaming people of a certain demographic for problems inherent to the system is really just ignoring the root of the problem, and simultaneously propelling the social problem of negative attitudes towards larger people. It also cannot be denied that better access to health care generally translates to better health overall. Just like better access to birth control and medical information about sex reduces the amount of unwanted pregnancies that occur.
Of course improving access to health care improves health. I didn't miss the point, I just didn't realize I needed to state the obvious and irrelevant. The sky is blue and kitties are adorable, Ingrid Bergman was gorgeous and Joe Biden had better watch out tomorrow when he visit's Cheney's castle. Does that cover the basics?
Regardless of whether individuals, employers, or the state pay for healthcare, there is a certain amount of resources put into the pool and a certain amount of care that can be provided. When people (smokers, fat folks, people who ride bikes without helmets) engage in behavior injurious to their own health and then expect treatment, they are consuming extra care/resources, and everyone must pay higher taxes or fees to cover it or else the amount of care that can provided for everyone else goes down. I'm glad you enjoy the Canadian system, when I'm without insurance down here I'd happily trade, but do you think it's provided magically for free? Someone pays for it, and when people drive up the cost of their own coverage then either someone must pay more or else the amount of care available for others declines. If I'm eating a bigger share of the pie, either the pie has to get bigger or someone's going to get a smaller piece.
you forgot one little fact in your sanctimonious rantings.
Because of attitudes like yours, fat people are less likely to seek healthcare.
Fat people are less likely to seek care because of my attitude that being obese is unhealthy? Someone's ranting, but it's not me.
Shannon Brownlee has a more compelling argument than the ole reliable obesity scapegoat on why health care costs are soaring in her new book "Overtreated." And the fact that some 47 million people -- fat and thin -- lack health insurance might have something to do with costs being driven up for those of us with insurance.
How can you possibly not understand that obesity can be a factor without being the only factor in the high cost of healthcare?
So human compassion is the motivation for people who yell "Hey fatty!" out their car windows at fat people on the street? For people who denigrate "chubby chasers" and proudly live by a "no fat chicks" rule? For those who eat up trashy celebrity mags that highlight the Worst Beach Bodies?
Like I said yesterday, I think it's foolish to try to somehow make everyone sexually desire fat bodies - mostly because I don't consider fuckability the be-all, end-all of people's worth.
But STOP PRETENDING that compassion is what drives people to shame, belittle, and ostracize fat people. FA is about putting an end to that behavior.
"SarahMC replied to aleks :
So human compassion is the motivation for people who yell "Hey fatty!" out their car windows at fat people on the street? For people who denigrate "chubby chasers" and proudly live by a "no fat chicks" rule? For those who eat up trashy celebrity mags that highlight the Worst Beach Bodies?"
Please quote me as ever having said anything that might possibly have led you to honestly conclude that I think so. The question was why I "fucking care" if someone is "healthy or not." If you're going to take my answer to that question and pretend it applies instead to shouting "Hey fatty," I guess I can't say I'm surprised.
Aleks, we have a problem. Our nicknames are too much alike. Someone will confuse me with you :)
Hmmm, how did that happen? Aleks is short for Aleksander, I'm named after a Russian grandfather. I'll be leaving for Namibia in a month and then the place and the name are all yours!
Oops.
A lot of people on the other thread (which was truly disgusting in some of the hate it spewed) had a problem with the line "Fat acceptance is you, seeing me, as sexy, bold and beautiful AS a fat person". I think Samhita put that as what the goal of the advertising ads is, and maybe an ultimate goal for the future. Obviously, even if we lived in a culture of fat acceptance, not everyone would see 'fat' people as sexy etc (just like though we live in a culture of acceptance of various hair types, some people still prefer blonds to brunettes).
I think a better way to describe one of the fat acceptance movement's goals is that more people would be able to think that fat is sexy and people wouldn't be judged for thinking fat is sexy (how many people have known someone who was questioned for picking a 'fat' boyfriend or girlfriend?) Even if someone prefers blonds, they aren't disgusted to think that anyone could ever prefer brunettes--but people are disgusted to think someone could be with a 'fat' person. This is the problem that needs solving, this is why we need to 'accept' that fat people are people too. They deserve nothing less that the opportunity to find love and happiness, without anyone judging them constantly.
In all honesty, I don't see any sort of problem with stating Fat acceptance is you, seeing me, as sexy, bold and beautiful AS a fat person as an integral part (the "sexy" part, hehe) of a wider ultimate goal. I think maybe people here would be a lot more supportive of it if we just tweaked it to say "you, seeing me, as potentially sexy" or some such. I don't think it was meant to demand actual, personal attraction from some individual to some other individual -- it was meant to assert that fat people are not sexless, are just as deserving of not just love but also lust as anyone else :) I still think this is a really good message. As mentioned in the other thread, I'm not sure I think they executed it as well as they possibly could've, but the intended message is great.
Great post. In case anyone is interested in doing their own research, there is research (links below) that shows that you can't tell the health of a person by what they look like on the outside. So, aside from the fact that it really isn't someone else's business whether or not you are healthy, they might even be wrong that you are actually unhealthy! And the claim that they should be allowed to shame people who are overweight or obese because of rising healthcare costs is lame. There are SO many things that cause a financial burden on the healthcare system; it is impossible to blame this on one group of people.
"While many may be incredulous, the largest body of evidence has found that fatness is not a risk factor for heart disease or premature death, even controlling for the effects of smoking."
http://junkfoodscience.blogspot.com/2006/11/obesity-paradox-1.html
"It's probably shocking for some to hear that there even ARE health benefits to being fat. But as these doctors noted, kidney disease isn't the only health problem where studies have shown that being fat appears protective and beneficial, especially as we age. It also includes infections, cancer, lung disease, heart disease, osteoporosis, anemia, high blood pressure, rheumatoid arthritis and type 2 diabetes."
http://junkfoodscience.blogspot.com/2006/12/obesity-paradox-2-how-can-it-be.html
"It is entirely possible that weight reduction, instead of resulting in a normal state for obese patients, results in an abnormal state resembling that of starved nonobese individuals."
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/05/08/healthscience/snfat.php?page=1
Dieting can cause long-term immune system problems:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15175588
"...it’s possible to be healthy no matter how fat you are and that weight loss as a goal is futile, unnecessary and counterproductive — and that fatness is nobody’s business but your own."
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/05/magazine/05wwln-idealab-t.html?_r=2&ref=magazine&oref=login&oref=slogin
I can't bring myself to read the other thread, too many comment threads on this site have been depressing me and pissing me off lately. I refuse to address the points that your dissenters bring up because it's not worth it. Instead I would like to commend you on your lovely post and righteous anger!
Also I would just like to say that the statement, "How about we do smoking acceptance next? Or how about alcoholic or abusive partner acceptance?" makes me really mad. Not only because it equates fatness with being an abusive alcoholic, but also because, however someone feels about smoking I am sick and tired of the moral crusade against it which positions smokers as terrible people out to kill themselves and everyone else. Lots of choices that we make are bad for ourselves and our environment, why are we demonized for some of the them but not for others?
I hear you! I hate how people feel that they have a say in the size of others-- from gossip mags ripping on celebrities who gain 5 pounds to ordinary people hating on strangers for being "too" fat or thin, somehow women's sizes are up for public scrutiny. Just like sex, color, socioeconomic status, etc., it JUST SHOULDN'T MATTER.
Obesity doesn't kill. Foods like McDonald's and watching TV all day might. Thin people do these things too. Can we stop shaming people and concentrate on actual problems? I heard somewhere that if all Americans actually ate 5-10 servings of fruits and veggies like recommended there wouldn't be enough of them for everyone. Fast food is cheap. Depending on where you live, fruits and veggies can be expensive.
I mean can we provide information and resources for living a healthy lifestyle without the judgment? Can't that be possible?
It is possible lyndorr. :)
This seems to mostly be a problem of the USA. Most european approaches involve acceptance, and providing reasonable information without judgement.
I think the problem in the usa is that most of the "information" is provided by what I like to refer to as "nutritional nazi-police". These are people who don't give you information... they GIVE IT to you... If you know what I mean.
They have this mental frame where they have decided what "the optimal" nutrition and weight is, and they will shame you into believing anything else is wrong.
In some other countries, this information is provided with no judgement, in the same you would provided options for the colour of your car.
"This is what works for some people. This works for others. This tends to make you more healthy, this tends to less" - That kind of languaging has been found to much more effective in the mental health of people.
The reason some obese people avoid the doctor is precisely the judgement based attitude in some western doctors.
Obviously, as you might have guessed. It actually works much better. People who are given weightloss as an option are much more likely to achieve it. People who are given weightloss as a rule, don't have weightloss results.
For Example: The most amazing weigthloss system discovered in the past years is the mckenna one that overtook britain. It had a (get this) 1480% greater success than dieting or doctor/nutritionist recommended approaches.
Guess what it teaches people?
1) Accept yourself, love yourself as you are TODAY, love the form you have today. Sincerely.
2) Enjoy the food you eat (palate and chew it until you suck every bit of taste from it, focus on the pleasure of the eating itself)
That's it. It has 1480% higher success rate than diets (in terms of weightloos). It has a 100% success in terms of health-improvement.
Why?
Because the few people who don't follow nr.2, just nr.1 (acceptance). See amazing improvements in their fitness levels, mental health, and by effect of that, physical health improves too.
The stress that the toxic-shame of non-acceptance creates is far more deadlier than visceral fat can ever be.
Awesome! I loved it.
Side note: What happened to the 'Dislike' option? Many of the posts here deserve it
Here's something I think you all should read to gain a better understanding of weight.
Its called Reading the Slender Body by Susan Bordo.
Please educate yourselves. Beating up on women who are overweight just adds to our own oppression as objectified beings.
Thanks! :)
Hmmm, I wonder if the obscene salaries of certain insurance bigwigs might have more to do with insurance being costly than "obese" people... just maybe...?
Possibly true and completely irrelevant. HMO's have outrageously bloated overhead, does that mean that cost savings from healthier lifestyles wouldn't be good?
i agree with you that no one should be hated for their size or weight. i do my best to treat others the way that i would wish to be treated because it's none of my business how much or how little someone weighs. although if asked i will give advice that i find helpful. but i'd rather get to know someone for their personality then for their looks, going by looks alone is a good way of gaining the lovely habit of self-hatred.
I try very hard not to judge people based on their weight or on any other aspect of their appearance. I am well aware that a person's overall health is based on a number of indicators. That being said, I will never stop supporting programs that aim to create a healthier population. It is unfortunate that "health" in this country is almost synonymous with "thin." But that doesn't mean that I don't want healthy, locally grown, organic, whole, fresh, etc. foods to be the same price or cheaper than unhealthy alternatives like processed or fast foods. Or that I don't want kids to be encouraged to go outside and play everyday.
I'm not afraid of fat, but I do want every child to have the best possible start in life, to have the chance to live a long life free of medical problems.
My guess is that most people can't separate "fat" from "sick." Once you do that, you can see there's a real problem out there independent of our freakish obsession with "thin."
The fashion magazines and constant airbrushing makes it so that no one is beautiful enough in their very real skin.
I think it would benefit the world to see fatness as beautiful. Perhaps fewer of us would hate our bodies.
The obesity problem is that highly processed foods are high in empty, non-nutritious calories. Weight gain gets paired with malnutrition, which sickens the body struggling to find the vitamins and minerals necessary for survival. But rather than blame the disparity of incomes, or the products that get sold as food, we blame the people just looking to eat. It's the consumer's fault, just like it's the fault of those who were talked into taking loans they wouldn't be able to afford once the rates were adjusted for the economy tanking.
It is always troubling to see so much hatred and vitriol expressed by ignorant people who have a deep disdain for seeing "imperfection" in their cushy, perfect fantasy worlds full of eye candy. The reality is that the world is imperfect, full of unique, imperfect individuals that want to be treated the same and equally in this world. However ...
When more than one doctor tells you that you have to lose weight because your blood test results indicate that you are heading in the same direction as your diabetic, heart-diseased, immediate family members, you have to listen to him or her and TAKE CHARGE OF YOUR OWN HEALTH if you want to live a happy, long life. Yes, there are skinny people and perfectly healthy people that can drop dead at any given moment. And there are definitely fat people that stun their doctors like crazy when their test results indicate that they are perfectly healthy. My hats off to you!
But what I am trying to say is that I am getting fed up with fat activists telling me that "Oh, you don't need to lose weight. You are beautiful the way you are. Keep eating those Dunkin' Donuts. Your doctor is lying to you. Keep getting second, third, and even more opinions until you are satisfied ..." and such.
(Apologies for sounding like I am lecturous, but I have to bring this up out of personal experience within my family) Heart Disease and Diabetes are diseases that YOU REALLY DO NOT WANT. You have to constantly monitor your health and make sure you take your indeed over-priced medications no matter what else you are doing every day. You have to see the doctor frequently, too, and if you don't have an adequate health care plan, it's all you're spending your spare change on (or perhaps being forced to file for bankruptcy because it all adds up fast). You have to make time for some daily exercise, no matter how busy you are. If you develop complications, you are in the hospital. Diabetes and heart disease are not at all a fun diseases to have (no matter what your size). You suffer. Period.
What fat activists themselves need to do is respect the weight-loss wishes of those that are fat, but have found that they cannot be. They need to learn that just because they are fat and healthy does not mean that their best friends are. Anyone losing weight DOES NOT WANT TO BE ANOREXIC, let alone being a "Size 0". They just want to get healthy at their own pace.
Look. It's not saying that if your doctor is concerned, that you shouldn't change. That's no different than if your heart has plaque or you have a cavity. But being fat doesn't automatically mean you're unhealthy. That's a misconception. Just like being a runner makes you automatically healthy. Or exercise in general. Don't get me wrong, exercise is good, but diet has a lot to do with it too. If you're eating a lot of junk and you're exercising to keep the fat off, fine. That doesn't make the junk any more good for you. And sooner or later the body will figure it out that the stuff it's getting isn't providing the nutrients it needs.
"But being fat doesn't automatically mean you're unhealthy."
Here is the issue that it always seems to come down to. I very very rarely see anyone advocating that being fat means you MUST BE unhealthy, and that being thin means you MUST BE healthy. I mean yes, some hateful people on the street might say that, but I'm talking about within the space of a serious discussion, like in yesterday's FA thread.
In the post you're replying to, no one stated that fat automatically means unhealthy.
I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) the point was that sometimes fat people are perfectly healthy and sometimes thin people are completely unhealthy, but that OFTEN TIMES very unhealthy lifestyles can lead to overweight. and likewise, that it is somewhat common for someone's overweight to be caused by unhealthy lifestyles.
Does this mean that if you are fat, that you are unhealthy? NO, NO. Again, since people always seem to skip this part, NO!!
What it does mean, is that there is a strong enough correlation that overweight can be one indicator (among many) that maybe some health questions should be asked. Now, if you are fat, you might know that the answers to those questions are all good. But for some others, the answers are not good.
I think the problem that some people have with *certain aspects* of the FA movement, is that it sometimes discourages these questions from being asked.
There always have been, and always will be, people who are larger than others through no fault of their own. They excercise and eat right, but their genes make them gain weight.
HOWEVER, the rate of obesity is going up to unprecedented numbers, and that is most likely not from genes. This almost certainly means that in addition to these people who are fat despite healthy lifestyles, there are also lots of people who are fat because of their lifestyle choices.
None of these people should be judged or shamed for their weight, whether it came from personal choice or not.
But I think we should not be discouraged from asking health questions.
i see what you're saying but i've always interpreted the FA movement not as discouraging the questions from being asked, but rather emphasizing that these are questions that each person should be left free to ask themselves privately.
when people are constantly bringing those points up, it's as if they think fat people haven't had those questions shoved in their faces everyday. they're perfectly aware of the health issues.
The problem is that the EFA (extreme FA movement)... I won't use FA for these people, because they're not represenative of all FA movements and certainly not representative of me.
The problem with the EFA is that they:
1) Bring up a non-true health claim to make a completely unrelated point
2) Discourage discussion of that claim
Its not like the EFA is talking about JUST acceptance (which other FA movements do).... The EFA proposes several outrageous "conspiracy-theory" level accusations of an entire government and scientific world.
Funny how no one brings up health issues when I talk about FA, or anyone of the FA activists I know. Its because we only talk about acceptance, and the positive effects of it.
For those of you who go on and on and on and fucking ON about how unhealthy being fat is, here's some food for thought: I'm skinny. I'm 5'6" and vary from about 117 to 120. I'm not underweight, but I'm at the very low end of what a "healthy" BMI is.
And yet...I'm not that healthy! True, I exercise, mainly because I'm addicted to walking (at least 4 miles every day, yay!), but you know the reason I'm thinner than most of my bigger friends? It sure as hell isn't quality of food...it's quantity. I simply eat less than most of them. I'm aware that what I'm doing to my body is horrible - chips, soda, sugar galore - but I don't stop. I'm eating all the crappy foods that many people assume all the "fat" people are eating, but lo and behold, no one ever comes up to me proclaiming that I need to stop out of "concern" for my health. Why? Because I fit the cultural ideal of what a woman should look like in terms of weight. And that's why fat judgment is so, so wrong. (I'm aware most of you already know all this; this is addressed to people like aleks.)
It's so easy to put the blame for things like national healthcare on visible health problems, like being overweight, but seriously, what else should we do? Monitor how much people drink, smoke, work with chemicals, sit in a sedentary position for hours on end, floss? (Flossing apparently makes you live WAY longer, ladies! Go for it!) Saying "fat" people are the reason healthcare costs are going up is a ridiculous assertion unless you add in all the other things that contribute - and I'm guessing girls who are starving themselves to fit your stupid cultural ideals also contribute to that.
this is addressed to people like aleks.)
It's so easy to put the blame for things like national healthcare on visible health problems, like being overweight, but seriously, what else should we do? Monitor how much people drink, smoke, work with chemicals, sit in a sedentary position for hours on end, floss? (Flossing apparently makes you live WAY longer, ladies! Go for it!)****************
People like me haven't advocated monitoring anyone's behavior for anything. The poster asked a question about why people "fucking care" about obesity and I gave some honest reasons.
Saying "fat" people are the reason healthcare costs are going up is a ridiculous assertion unless you add in all the other things that contribute - *******************
No one has asserted that "'fat' people are the [exclusive] reason healthcare costs are going up". Unhealthy lifestyles, including obesity, sedentary living, smoking, alcohol abuse and many others are reasons. Please note the plural. Again, the poster asked why anyone cares and I gave honest answers to why the trend towards obesity in America is an objectively bad thing.
and I'm guessing girls who are starving themselves to fit your stupid cultural ideals also contribute to that.*************
Do you not have any sense of integrity at all? What that I've ever said would incline you to think that anyone "starving themselves" fits with my cultural ideals? What does it say about you that you can't actually argue with a real person but have to invent someone twisted enough to be a fair match for you?
i think what she was trying to get at was just that a lot of people think it's ok to actually lecture fat people about the health risks because fat is visible. meanwhile a lot of people are doing really unhealthy things but they don't have to put up with the constant lecturing and people basically questioning their intelligence ("don't you know fat is unhealthy").
but i realize your name was mentioned in that post so i can see why you were offended
I would never approach an individual and criticize their food choices, I'm not their doctor or parent. I do think that society should structure its incentives around promoting a healthy rather than unhealthy population. As it is, govt subsidies stack the deck towards corn syrup and driving everywhere.
I don't see what's wrong with society as a whole promoting a healthy life-style for all its citizens. Encouraging people to be healthy doesn't make someone a "fat-hater". If I told a child that smoking was unhealthy, you would applaud me. If I told a child that being overweight was unhealthy, you'd probably blast me. Both are simply true statements. Yes, some fat people are healthy. Yes, some smokers live to be 100 years old. We are not talking about value judgments or possibly exceptions, we are talking about scientific averages.
In my opinion there is too quick of a jump on this site to immediately infer that "unhealthy" is just code for "morally wrong". That is just not true. I also think that we will quickly run into a double standard if we say that society is unconcerned with the health of any people, and everyone should just do whatever they want to themselves.
being overweight is not inherently unhealthy.
we would blast you for that because it is factually untrue.
aas711 -Do realize that anyone can comment online. Anonymously. I'm just saying that you're giving seriousness to someone that might not deserve it.
Aleks: The "healthcare costs" argument was really uncalled for and only leading to a fingerpointing "us vs. them" dynamic.
happyhappyhappygirls: """The obesity problem is that highly processed foods are high in empty, non-nutritious calories. Weight gain gets paired with malnutrition, which sickens the body struggling to find the vitamins and minerals necessary for survival. """
I know this is a bit offtopic, but I couldn't ressist replying to this. The above frame (junk food, empty calories) is a bunch of BS invented by the nutritional industry... The same guys who invented the "obesity epidemic hoax", and the same people who invented "poor body self-image" as a tactic for creating sales.
There is no proof at all from independent studies that "junk food" is inherently more unhealthy than "so called health food".
There's been a ton of studies in europe where people lose weight on and have perfect health with eating mostly junk food. They only control portions/appetite/exercise. Few universities even proved the "supersize me" move to be a hoax by having students repeat it with eating nothing but mcdonalds. Guess what. Exact same health. If they told them to regulate calories, they achieved athlete level conditions (by eating just fast food).
This industry first makes you feel bad and installs a bad body image in you. Then it tells you that you should feel bad for eating "cheap food" (i.e. low margins food), and then it sells you overpriced tofu, low-fat, low-carb, or whatever the latest "health food" fad at the moment is.
She asked why people care, I told her one of the reasons (that ill health in some drives up health insurance costs for all).
The problem with all the studies you mentioned is that they are too specific. You said "lose weight" while eating "junk food". Just weight doesn't describe overall health. You said "Same health" while eating Mcdonalds. But for all we know they just ate a grilled chicken salad with no dressing from McDonalds every day. You say regulate calories, well yeah, if you exercise and use all of your limited calories for energy, you will lose weight. But you're also cramming your arteries full of trans fats that human lipase won't break down, and now you're ten times as far on your way to a heart attack as if you'd just eaten pasta instead.
Studies can be misleading one way just as easily as the other way.
"There is no proof at all from independent studies that "junk food" is inherently more unhealthy than "so called health food"."
So all of the studies about the benefits of the Mediterranean diet, i.e., fresh fruits and veggies, fish, red wine, lean protein, olive oil, have been debunked?
And are these "tons" of studies in Europe, with people eating junk food, long-term studies? You generally have to follow individuals for decades to determine whether a particular diet has health benefits.
I am not fat, however I am appalled by how sizist feministing has become. I assumed that most people on here would be supportive of people regardless of their size because its an issue that effects many women. Discriminating against fat people is not different than discriminating against people for any other physical characteristic and I would think that progressive people would know that.
So I just want to thank the poster for being brave and standing up for herself!
I agree with Aleks in one regard - you can't ask or expect people to change their subjective views of what "sexy" is to include fat if that doesn't work for them. However, we can and should expect people acknowledge that fat CAN be sexy and there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaking in heteronormative terms (because we are talking about a heterosexual sex based problem, I think), there are already LOTS of guys who find large women sexy. There is even evidence to suggest that MOST guys are more biologically turned on by a woman who is perhaps not fat, but bigger than the current popular ideal.
But guys who like big girls have to go underground. They're expected to find the skinny ideal and can face ridicule if they don't. I remember hearing a particularly nasty masculinity meme that reflects this perfectly: "A moped is like a fat chick: fun to ride, but you wouldn't want your friends to see you with one."
This is why fat is a feminist issue - there's no such condemnation of women choosing bigger male partners. In fact, our culture bombards us with images of beatuiful skinny women dating fat, unattractive, fat guys and tells us this one-sidedness is acceptable.
Our culture is fat phobic in general, but while a fat man can still be considered valuable in spite of this flaw, a fat woman is considered worthless and discriminated against socially, professionally, publicy, what have you.
Regarding health: yes, obesity is unhealthy. But to assume that fatphobia is somehow based purely in this and therefore, justifiable, is ridiculous.
Yes, we do, as a culture, have a bias against cigarette smoking, but it is a bias against the smoking itself, not the smokers. A smoker doesn't face job discrimination and social ridicule for her habit, just a lot of friends saying, "You know, you really should quit." All this in spite of the fact that smoking has a greater element of choice than being fat does.
Let's not even talk about OTHER unhealthy choices. I'm a person of Scandinavian descent living in super-sunny Colorado who is eternally neglectful when it comes to wearing sunscreen. Given my family history, I'm probably way just as likely to die of skin cancer because of my habits as most chubby women are to die of heart disease. Do people discriminate against me, make fun of me, shut me out of "cool" and powerful circles because of my sun habits? No, and if I regularly used a tanning booth to make my skin golden and "perfect" looking, the amount of social acceptance I experience would go up, not down. Why? Because it's based on appearances and the male gaze, not health. Period.
Most guys I know like girls with some curves and no bones sticking out, so yes, "not fat, but bigger than the current popular ideal." I don't know any man who doesn't think Scarlett Johanson is sexier than the skeleton models.
Oh, hooray. We don't have to be bone-thin; looking like Scarlett Johanson will do.
Scarlett is not a great example of a woman with "meat on her bones." She is a beautiful woman, but her "meat" is located in all the "right" places - she has a perfect hourglass figure. Those of us with meat around our middles rather than in our tits are certainly not applauded for having "curvy" bodies the way Scarlett is. Some shapes are privileged over others.
Yeah, and there are certain body types that girls prefer in guys too. Life is unfair like that. Most people realize that before they stop being children, and hopefully some day you will.
Apparently Scarlett's "privileged" body type is just genuinely better.
Big waist raises risk of early death
* Story Highlights
* Powerful link between waist size and early death found in new study
* Researchers say big waist nearly doubles risk of premature death
* Large waist found to raise risk even in people considered to be normal weight
LONDON, England (CNN) -- Having a big waistline can nearly double your risk of dying early, a major study has found.
The wide-scale study found that carrying excess fat around the middle increases the risk of early death, even in people not considered to be overweight.
Researchers from Imperial College London, the German Institute of Human Nutrition and other European institutions compared the waist sizes of participants with the same body mass index. They also calculated the ratio of their hip and waist measurements.
Body mass index (BMI) is a formula that expresses body weight in relation to height and is widely used to screen for weight problems. A BMI between 18.5 and 24.9 is considered normal for an adult.
The study in The New England Journal of Medicine found that an increase in waist circumference of about two inches raised the risk of death by 17 percent in men and 13 percent in women.
Large waists may lead to higher mortality risk because fatty tissue around the middle produces hormones and other compounds that can lead to the development of cardiovascular diseases and cancers, the study said.
The authors said a key finding of the research was uncovering the extent of the connection between distribution of body fat and risk of dying early, independent of BMI.
"Although smaller studies have suggested a link between mortality and waist size, we were surprised to see the waist size having such a powerful effect on people's health and premature death," Professor Elio Riboli from Imperial College London, one of the researchers, said in a statement.
"There aren't many simple individual characteristics that can increase a person's risk of premature death to this extent, independently from smoking and drinking," he said.
Findings from the study also supported earlier research linking higher BMIs to death.
Researchers did not focus on why some people develop bulging waistlines, but they said anyone with a large waist should increase their daily exercise, avoid drinking alcohol excessively and improve their diet.
They also said hip and waist measurements should be incorporated into routine health checks to identify individuals who may develop health problems.
The study tracked nearly 360,000 participants for about 10 years.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/11/14/big.waistlines/
If I had a friend like you, I wouldn't say anything to their face, unless they mentioned it, but I would secretly hope that they would use sunscreen.
And I would scan them for irregular moles.
I'm sorry. I care about my friends. If they ask me for health advice, I say that they should exercise daily, chew their food, get a good night's sleep, quit smoking so much, use alcohol and drugs only in moderation, and protect their skin from burning. Oh, and to remember that caffeine is addictive and has withdrawal symptoms.
No value judgments made on how much food they consume (although I do think that consuming, on a daily basis, more calories than is needed to keep your weight stable is wasteful), what they look like, how much they weigh.
Usually, being fat is a symptom of either 1) eating enough calories to gain weight or 2) not exercising enough. Although, I did know someone in HS who is incredibly skinny and has been on cholesterol reducing drugs since she was 14.
"Yes, we do, as a culture, have a bias against cigarette smoking, but it is a bias against the smoking itself, not the smokers. A smoker doesn't face job discrimination and social ridicule for her habit, just a lot of friends saying, "You know, you really should quit." All this in spite of the fact that smoking has a greater element of choice than being fat does."
I am going to have to respectfully and wholeheartedly disagree with you here. Society does in fact ridicule smokers. And I'm not sure that your argument that "smoking has a greater element of choice than being fat does" makes any sense. Ever heard of addiction or genetics?
There is definitely a smoker bias. I have one.
- I hold a lengthy "rules&warnings" speech before I let smokers in my apartment.
- I refuse to kiss a smoker.
- I stand further away when talking to a smoker.
- I will not employ or do business with a smoker [luckily I do not live in the USA where someone can dictate a private business whom you're not allowed to not hire]
- I publicly and loudly shame smokers when they litter if no police officers are near
- I call the cops on a smoker when they drop a cigarette butt in a public setting [there's a 100$ fine]
- I take arguments on serious issues (politics, law, health, goverment, etc) coming from smokers less seriously [as if they were coming from a child]
Reasons why I won't employ a smoker or give them less benefit of the doubt ?
Because they say things like this "Ever heard of addiction or genetics?". If its an addiction, why would I hire an addict? And if they believe that genetics make them unable to not put cigarettes in their mouth, why would I hire someone so emotionally immature or ignorant (imagine, a "cigarettes gene").
If they believe neither genetics nor addiction, but choose to smoke anyway, I do not respect people who do not respect their own hygiene over hedonistic pleasures resulting in (bad breath, scary looking teeth, yellow pigmentation that makes them look like they're sick, smelly home, living with yellow walls, cancer, spitting out a dirty mucky gooey substance every few months etc...)
Seriously, there is a difference between hating smoking and hating smokers, just as there is a difference between advocating healthy choices and hating fat people. The end.
Very very very well put Laurel. I'm glad to see there is more and more common sense and reason on this subject.
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you can't ask or expect people to change their subjective views of what "sexy" is to include fat if that doesn't work for them. However, we can and should expect people acknowledge that fat CAN be sexy and there's nothing wrong with that.
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Well summarized. We often forget that its about freedom. People should be FREE to choose to be fat, and then people should be free to be attracted to fat if they want to.
This is also a very important point no one mentioned until now:
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But guys who like big girls have to go underground. They're expected to find the skinny ideal and can face ridicule if they don't. I remember hearing a particularly nasty masculinity meme that reflects this perfectly: "A moped is like a fat chick: fun to ride, but you wouldn't want your friends to see you with one."
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Reading over the comments it seems like we need clearer definitions to work with. I'm 5'2" and around 157lbs or so....definitely not bony thin but I would never call myself fat. When we keep saying fat acceptance the associations which come to mind for the very word fat are not what I have been reading about. Fat is not when a woman has had two kids and gained some weight. Fat is not 'curvy' and fat is definitely not normal. When someone says 'fat' I see an image of an unhealthily obese person with unhealthy lifestyle and eating habits. I think a big problem is that we assign fat to a lot of body types that really aren't fat at all. By most standards if I stand in my underwear in front of a mirror I am what society would consider fat or chubby, but truly the range of body types we consider fat is astounding. Obesity is one thing, normal bodies are another.
We talk about fat as if it applies for everyone from my size range up towards three or four hundred pounds...but to me that doesn't make sense. You are either healthy for your body frame and type or you're not. I'm 'chubby' by social standards but since they are made up it doesn't matter because I'm healthy and happy with myself and truthfully have a lot of wiggle room for my weight to fluctuate up and down.
Fat acceptance doesn't seem like a good term...nor does adipositivity. I totally condone the messages; NORMAL bodies are what a lot of us have and they need to be accepted and loved because we are not all going to be size zero....but I think the term 'fat' is too synonymous with images of obesity in our society for the slogan to not be provocative. Because truthfully I don't accept obesity, it IS unhealthy and it is TOTALLY different than what it seems like we are deeming 'fat'. I could be considered fat and I am not obese. Most of us could, by ridiculous US weekly standards be thought of as fat but we are not obese. we have beautiful normal bodies which shouldn't be judged unfairly.
I know it's sort of playing with fire to say but I will not accept and embrace obesity. There are a lot of things that could be gray areas (certain kinks or fetishes that I may not like but other people could for example) but I want my community, my family, my friends, to be happy and healthy. Happy and healthy are relative of course, but I trust both my own experience and observations as well as the medical field in refusing to accept obesity.
I dunno. I think it's (at least partly) BECAUSE "fat" has been associated with healthy bodies as well as unhealthy ones that the movement is eager to reclaim that term. It's BECAUSE people have that automatic negative reaction that the movement is necessary.
I think they're probably trying to be a little provocative. In our culture, everyone who is bigger than size 6 (at most) is called FAT and shamed into dieting. And instead of trying to banish the word from everyone's vocabulary (won't happen), the movement is saying "Yeah? So what if I am fat? ACCEPT IT!"
I read through all the comments on yesterday's (or the day before?) adipositivity posting and it was exhausting. I will admit I haven't read through this entire board, but I just wanted to express my support for the fat-acceptance crowd.
Fat does not necessarily equal unhealthy.
Skinny does not necessarily equal healthy.
If we're going to tell people how to live their lives and what choices to make and how to change their own freaking bodies, we damn well better have a stronger correlation between weight and health than we do. It is my opinion that health is often used as justification for fat hatred. Fat people (and I think especially fat women) face a TON of discrimination and this website is just trying to present them in a positive light! So I think everyone should get off their health high horse and stop telling other people what's appropriate for their bodies.
I just think everyone needs to realize that the point isn't that there can be health risks for being overweight and that lots of people who are fat are that way b/c of lifestyle choices.
The point is that everyone knows that. The point is that someone else's health isn't our business. Do you go into McDonald's everyday and lecture everyone there?
Maybe you care enough about health that you would, in fact, lecture someone if you saw them smoking. But if you saw someone with yellow teeth, would you automatically run up to them and lecture them on smoking? Or would you realize that you can't tell anything about their health and lifestyle just by looking?
The point is that you will never know who is healthy or not, or who has a good lifestyle or who doesn't. So when you bring these things up when fat people are mentioned, you're making assumptions about individuals. If I came on here and said MOST women are bad at science and shouldn't pursue careers in that field, but maybe there are exceptions so you can't get mad b/c i might not be talking about you in particular... well that would be pretty offensive.
My endorsement may be the kiss of death around here but I think that was very well said.
Just for the record, I think people who lecture smokers (at least, strangers who lecture smokers) are busybody assholes who need to leave well enough alone too, for whatever that's worth. I don't know when we started getting all up in each other's business like this.
Unless e.g., someone's smoke is in your face and you have respiratory disorders aggravated by smoke, why is lecturing someone about smoking any more acceptable? As someone once said about being overweight, my fat does not make you fat.
And before someone goes on about POSSIBLE effects on that person's health or the burden on the health care system because of smoking related illness, consider the consequences of eating meat. Maybe PETA and enthusiastic vegans are on the right track as well.
unless it's affecting you directly like that i don't think it is appropriate to lecture a smoker, i was just trying to make a point.
one of my best friends recently said this:
"you don't need anybody's permission, ever, to be content."
i think that the statement can also hold truths in this context.
to the poster: i'm sure that you are beautiful and sexy and intelligent and amazing, and i hope that you stay that way forever.
Well put! I second that.