I know some people might not read this. And I know that some people might flame me. But dammit! I'm mad! No. I'm Beyond mad. I'm furious! Samhita has often blogged about her weight issues and they are something I can much relate to and today's Adipositive post wasn't that different. Usually I find the whole comments section along the same line around hatred and bigotry on fat-hating. Only that not what was there. There were comments of that bigotry and hatred. Okay. No big deal. Those typically don't bother me. I don't invest much in blog comments. Too much time and energy. Until I read the quote:
"How about we do smoking acceptance next? Or how about alcoholic or abusive partner acceptance?"
Whaa???
Suddenly my fatness will lead to abusive partners? *tries to follow logic, but brain explodes*
I'm 5'9" and I"m 240 lbs. *gasp of horror* Yes. You read correctly. Two-hundred and forty fucking pounds. Most of it is on my belly. Some on my ass. It's basically everywhere except my calves and scalp. To clarify, yes I do have body image issues. There are days where I think, "If the fat were gone, my problems would be over," but I know that isn't going to happen.
So being fat is unhealthy. Okay. I'll give you that. Being overweight is unhealthy according to every medical science journal. Fine.
So what?
Why is this bad? How does if affect you? Why should you fucking care whether I'm healthy or not? I don't know you. I certainly don't care about your health. You want a bag of chips? Go ahead and eat one. Have some soda and chocolate while you're at it. I couldn't care less. But don't you try and tell me I should fucking lose weight or that I'm unhealthy/lazy/ugly/unnattractive/anything derrogatory. Seriously. Don't. And don't go on about health. How's your health? Did you run out of breath taking the stairs? Or did you take the elevator? How many miles have you walked this week? How many hours did you spend being sedentary? What was the fat content of your last meal?
If you're going to talk the talk, then walk the walk.
And by the way....
Fat people can be healthy. Runners can have heart attacks. And naturally thin people can be as unhealthy as the next. So I don't want to hear it. I'm fat and I'm proud. Fat haters, get over yourself.
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For some people, weight is related to healthy problems, but judging someone's health based solely on their appearance alone is just another form of unfairly profiling someone based on nothing other than one's own stereotypes and assumptions. I'm saddened to see such decidedly non-size-acceptance kinds of comments were made here of all places. Thanks for speaking up, aas711.
Not impressed. "Fat acceptance is you, seeing me, as sexy, bold and beautiful AS a fat person." Telling people they need to change their subjective view of what's sexy from fit to fat, on a public blog which you presumably hope reaches a wide audience, puts the issue out there for discussion. If you only want supportive responses telling you that you're dead on, don't blog for the public, send emails to people you already know agree with you.
"So being fat is unhealthy. Okay. I'll give you that. Being overweight is unhealthy according to every medical science journal. Fine.
So what?
Why is this bad? How does if affect you? Why should you fucking care whether I'm healthy or not?"
Aside from general human compassion, there's the fact that health insurance is the fastest rising cost in my and most people's budgets. I have a hard time imagining that the writer didn't think people would or should care, since she did write it and post it.
"Did you run out of breath taking the stairs? Or did you take the elevator? How many miles have you walked this week? How many hours did you spend being sedentary? What was the fat content of your last meal?"
I walk about 20 and bike about 200 miles a week. I have a bad relationship with food and I hugely, unhealthily overeat and if a time comes when I can't keep up a high level of exercise I will have to drastically cut my consumption or I'll balloon. Since you asked.
"If you only want supportive responses telling you that you're dead on, don't blog for the public, send emails to people you already know agree with you."
You know, with the amount of comments arguing against you, I think you're in the minority. Just a thought.
I hadn't realized Feministing was quite so committed to deferring to the majority opinion. Declaring minority opinions prima facie invalid would be a brilliant strategic move for feminism, don't you think?
I'm not truly affiliated with Feministing. I just happen to blog and comment here. You're also arguing against yourself with that comment I just quoted from you. You said that the blog was in the minority and shouldn't be blogged about at all. Well, if your comment is in the minority, by your logic, should you not be commenting?
Your argument was pretty much rude and selfish. Giving the health care argument just shows that you don't really care about fat people's health. You just care about it affects you. Here's something, sick people don't decided the cost of health care. The companies do. Your reasons hold no water. They are selfish, nigh bigoted. And you can snark at me all you want, I'm not wasting any more energy towards people like you.
"You said that the blog was in the minority and shouldn't be blogged about at all. Well, if your comment is in the minority, by your logic, should you not be commenting?"
I said no such thing.
"Your argument was pretty much rude and selfish. Giving the health care argument just shows that you don't really care about fat people's health. You just care about it affects you."
Yes, because when I cite two reasons, obviously I must only believe in one of them.
"Here's something, sick people don't decided the cost of health care. The companies do."
My mistake. How could I have thought that the cost of providing care had any role at all in the cost of insurance. Obviously I should have realized that actually treating people costs nothing, and insurance premiums are arbitrarily decided by HMOs.
Not impressed. "Fat acceptance is you, seeing me, as sexy, bold and beautiful AS a fat person." Telling people they need to change their subjective view of what's sexy from fit to fat, on a public blog which you presumably hope reaches a wide audience, puts the issue out there for discussion. If you only want supportive responses telling you that you're dead on, don't blog for the public, send emails to people you already know agree with you.
"So being fat is unhealthy. Okay. I'll give you that. Being overweight is unhealthy according to every medical science journal. Fine.
So what?
Why is this bad? How does if affect you? Why should you fucking care whether I'm healthy or not?"
Aside from general human compassion, there's the fact that health insurance is the fastest rising cost in my and most people's budgets. I have a hard time imagining that the writer didn't think people would or should care, since she did write it and post it.
"Did you run out of breath taking the stairs? Or did you take the elevator? How many miles have you walked this week? How many hours did you spend being sedentary? What was the fat content of your last meal?"
I walk about 20 and bike about 200 miles a week. I have a bad relationship with food and I hugely, unhealthily overeat and if a time comes when I can't keep up a high level of exercise I will have to drastically cut my consumption or I'll balloon. Since you asked.
"Aside from general human compassion, there's the fact that health insurance is the fastest rising cost in my and most people's budgets."
Isn't this a problem with the system, rather than with the individuals within the system? Being from Canada, where we have an excellent, and (mostly) socialist (egads, I said it) health system (it isn't perfect, by any means, but people here have easier access to health care in comparison), I really feel that comments such as these play into a sort of "divide and conquer" strategy. It is hegemonic, really, to take the attention off of the failing system and to place it on a certain sector within the system. I align this with the attitudes I commonly see amongst my peers, the ones that blame people on welfare for rising taxes- it the welfare system that fails, that keeps people in a cycle of poverty, it is useless to blame those in need of the support.
Anyways, I'm not within the American Health Care system, so perhaps my views don't count. Who knows.
You still pay for health insurance, you just do it with taxes. If some people's life style choices are raising the cost of covering them, then either you're going to pay more or receive less as they consume more resources.
Indeed, but a greater portion of the Canadian population has access to health care. You've also completely missed my point, that blaming people of a certain demographic for problems inherent to the system is really just ignoring the root of the problem, and simultaneously propelling the social problem of negative attitudes towards larger people. It also cannot be denied that better access to health care generally translates to better health overall. Just like better access to birth control and medical information about sex reduces the amount of unwanted pregnancies that occur.
Of course improving access to health care improves health. I didn't miss the point, I just didn't realize I needed to state the obvious and irrelevant. The sky is blue and kitties are adorable, Ingrid Bergman was gorgeous and Joe Biden had better watch out tomorrow when he visit's Cheney's castle. Does that cover the basics?
Regardless of whether individuals, employers, or the state pay for healthcare, there is a certain amount of resources put into the pool and a certain amount of care that can be provided. When people (smokers, fat folks, people who ride bikes without helmets) engage in behavior injurious to their own health and then expect treatment, they are consuming extra care/resources, and everyone must pay higher taxes or fees to cover it or else the amount of care that can provided for everyone else goes down. I'm glad you enjoy the Canadian system, when I'm without insurance down here I'd happily trade, but do you think it's provided magically for free? Someone pays for it, and when people drive up the cost of their own coverage then either someone must pay more or else the amount of care available for others declines. If I'm eating a bigger share of the pie, either the pie has to get bigger or someone's going to get a smaller piece.
you forgot one little fact in your sanctimonious rantings.
Because of attitudes like yours, fat people are less likely to seek healthcare.
Fat people are less likely to seek care because of my attitude that being obese is unhealthy? Someone's ranting, but it's not me.
Shannon Brownlee has a more compelling argument than the ole reliable obesity scapegoat on why health care costs are soaring in her new book "Overtreated." And the fact that some 47 million people -- fat and thin -- lack health insurance might have something to do with costs being driven up for those of us with insurance.
How can you possibly not understand that obesity can be a factor without being the only factor in the high cost of healthcare?
So human compassion is the motivation for people who yell "Hey fatty!" out their car windows at fat people on the street? For people who denigrate "chubby chasers" and proudly live by a "no fat chicks" rule? For those who eat up trashy celebrity mags that highlight the Worst Beach Bodies?
Like I said yesterday, I think it's foolish to try to somehow make everyone sexually desire fat bodies - mostly because I don't consider fuckability the be-all, end-all of people's worth.
But STOP PRETENDING that compassion is what drives people to shame, belittle, and ostracize fat people. FA is about putting an end to that behavior.
"SarahMC replied to aleks :
So human compassion is the motivation for people who yell "Hey fatty!" out their car windows at fat people on the street? For people who denigrate "chubby chasers" and proudly live by a "no fat chicks" rule? For those who eat up trashy celebrity mags that highlight the Worst Beach Bodies?"
Please quote me as ever having said anything that might possibly have led you to honestly conclude that I think so. The question was why I "fucking care" if someone is "healthy or not." If you're going to take my answer to that question and pretend it applies instead to shouting "Hey fatty," I guess I can't say I'm surprised.
Aleks, we have a problem. Our nicknames are too much alike. Someone will confuse me with you :)
Hmmm, how did that happen? Aleks is short for Aleksander, I'm named after a Russian grandfather. I'll be leaving for Namibia in a month and then the place and the name are all yours!
Oops.
A lot of people on the other thread (which was truly disgusting in some of the hate it spewed) had a problem with the line "Fat acceptance is you, seeing me, as sexy, bold and beautiful AS a fat person". I think Samhita put that as what the goal of the advertising ads is, and maybe an ultimate goal for the future. Obviously, even if we lived in a culture of fat acceptance, not everyone would see 'fat' people as sexy etc (just like though we live in a culture of acceptance of various hair types, some people still prefer blonds to brunettes).
I think a better way to describe one of the fat acceptance movement's goals is that more people would be able to think that fat is sexy and people wouldn't be judged for thinking fat is sexy (how many people have known someone who was questioned for picking a 'fat' boyfriend or girlfriend?) Even if someone prefers blonds, they aren't disgusted to think that anyone could ever prefer brunettes--but people are disgusted to think someone could be with a 'fat' person. This is the problem that needs solving, this is why we need to 'accept' that fat people are people too. They deserve nothing less that the opportunity to find love and happiness, without anyone judging them constantly.
In all honesty, I don't see any sort of problem with stating Fat acceptance is you, seeing me, as sexy, bold and beautiful AS a fat person as an integral part (the "sexy" part, hehe) of a wider ultimate goal. I think maybe people here would be a lot more supportive of it if we just tweaked it to say "you, seeing me, as potentially sexy" or some such. I don't think it was meant to demand actual, personal attraction from some individual to some other individual -- it was meant to assert that fat people are not sexless, are just as deserving of not just love but also lust as anyone else :) I still think this is a really good message. As mentioned in the other thread, I'm not sure I think they executed it as well as they possibly could've, but the intended message is great.
Great post. In case anyone is interested in doing their own research, there is research (links below) that shows that you can't tell the health of a person by what they look like on the outside. So, aside from the fact that it really isn't someone else's business whether or not you are healthy, they might even be wrong that you are actually unhealthy! And the claim that they should be allowed to shame people who are overweight or obese because of rising healthcare costs is lame. There are SO many things that cause a financial burden on the healthcare system; it is impossible to blame this on one group of people.
"While many may be incredulous, the largest body of evidence has found that fatness is not a risk factor for heart disease or premature death, even controlling for the effects of smoking."
http://junkfoodscience.blogspot.com/2006/11/obesity-paradox-1.html
"It's probably shocking for some to hear that there even ARE health benefits to being fat. But as these doctors noted, kidney disease isn't the only health problem where studies have shown that being fat appears protective and beneficial, especially as we age. It also includes infections, cancer, lung disease, heart disease, osteoporosis, anemia, high blood pressure, rheumatoid arthritis and type 2 diabetes."
http://junkfoodscience.blogspot.com/2006/12/obesity-paradox-2-how-can-it-be.html
"It is entirely possible that weight reduction, instead of resulting in a normal state for obese patients, results in an abnormal state resembling that of starved nonobese individuals."
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/05/08/healthscience/snfat.php?page=1
Dieting can cause long-term immune system problems:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15175588
"...it’s possible to be healthy no matter how fat you are and that weight loss as a goal is futile, unnecessary and counterproductive — and that fatness is nobody’s business but your own."
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/05/magazine/05wwln-idealab-t.html?_r=2&ref=magazine&oref=login&oref=slogin
I can't bring myself to read the other thread, too many comment threads on this site have been depressing me and pissing me off lately. I refuse to address the points that your dissenters bring up because it's not worth it. Instead I would like to commend you on your lovely post and righteous anger!
Also I would just like to say that the statement, "How about we do smoking acceptance next? Or how about alcoholic or abusive partner acceptance?" makes me really mad. Not only because it equates fatness with being an abusive alcoholic, but also because, however someone feels about smoking I am sick and tired of the moral crusade against it which positions smokers as terrible people out to kill themselves and everyone else. Lots of choices that we make are bad for ourselves and our environment, why are we demonized for some of the them but not for others?
I hear you! I hate how people feel that they have a say in the size of others-- from gossip mags ripping on celebrities who gain 5 pounds to ordinary people hating on strangers for being "too" fat or thin, somehow women's sizes are up for public scrutiny. Just like sex, color, socioeconomic status, etc., it JUST SHOULDN'T MATTER.
Obesity doesn't kill. Foods like McDonald's and watching TV all day might. Thin people do these things too. Can we stop shaming people and concentrate on actual problems? I heard somewhere that if all Americans actually ate 5-10 servings of fruits and veggies like recommended there wouldn't be enough of them for everyone. Fast food is cheap. Depending on where you live, fruits and veggies can be expensive.
I mean can we provide information and resources for living a healthy lifestyle without the judgment? Can't that be possible?
It is possible lyndorr. :)
This seems to mostly be a problem of the USA. Most european approaches involve acceptance, and providing reasonable information without judgement.
I think the problem in the usa is that most of the "information" is provided by what I like to refer to as "nutritional nazi-police". These are people who don't give you information... they GIVE IT to you... If you know what I mean.
They have this mental frame where they have decided what "the optimal" nutrition and weight is, and they will shame you into believing anything else is wrong.
In some other countries, this information is provided with no judgement, in the same you would provided options for the colour of your car.
"This is what works for some people. This works for others. This tends to make you more healthy, this tends to less" - That kind of languaging has been found to much more effective in the mental health of people.
The reason some obese people avoid the doctor is precisely the judgement based attitude in some western doctors.
Obviously, as you might have guessed. It actually works much better. People who are given weightloss as an option are much more likely to achieve it. People who are given weightloss as a rule, don't have weightloss results.
For Example: The most amazing weigthloss system discovered in the past years is the mckenna one that overtook britain. It had a (get this) 1480% greater success than dieting or doctor/nutritionist recommended approaches.
Guess what it teaches people?
1) Accept yourself, love yourself as you are TODAY, love the form you have today. Sincerely.
2) Enjoy the food you eat (palate and chew it until you suck every bit of taste from it, focus on the pleasure of the eating itself)
That's it. It has 1480% higher success rate than diets (in terms of weightloos). It has a 100% success in terms of health-improvement.
Why?
Because the few people who don't follow nr.2, just nr.1 (acceptance). See amazing improvements in their fitness levels, mental health, and by effect of that, physical health improves too.
The stress that the toxic-shame of non-acceptance creates is far more deadlier than visceral fat can ever be.
Awesome! I loved it.
Side note: What happened to the 'Dislike' option? Many of the posts here deserve it
Here's something I think you all should read to gain a better understanding of weight.
Its called Reading the Slender Body by Susan Bordo.
Please educate yourselves. Beating up on women who are overweight just adds to our own oppression as objectified beings.
Thanks! :)
Hmmm, I wonder if the obscene salaries of certain insurance bigwigs might have more to do with insurance being costly than "obese" people... just maybe...?
Possibly true and completely irrelevant. HMO's have outrageously bloated overhead, does that mean that cost savings from healthier lifestyles wouldn't be good?
i agree with you that no one should be hated for their size or weight. i do my best to treat others the way that i would wish to be treated because it's none of my business how much or how little someone weighs. although if asked i will give advice that i find helpful. but i'd rather get to know someone for their personality then for their looks, going by looks alone is a good way of gaining the lovely habit of self-hatred.
I try very hard not to judge people based on their weight or on any other aspect of their appearance. I am well aware that a person's overall health is based on a number of indicators. That being said, I will never stop supporting programs that aim to create a healthier population. It is unfortunate that "health" in this country is almost synonymous with "thin." But that doesn't mean that I don't want healthy, locally grown, organic, whole, fresh, etc. foods to be the same price or cheaper than unhealthy alternatives like processed or fast foods. Or that I don't want kids to be encouraged to go outside and play everyday.
I'm not afraid of fat, but I do want every child to have the best possible start in life, to have the chance to live a long life free of medical problems.
My guess is that most people can't separate "fat" from "sick." Once you do that, you can see there's a real problem out there independent of our freakish obsession with "thin."
The fashion magazines and constant airbrushing makes it so that no one is beautiful enough in their very real skin.
I think it would benefit the world to see fatness as beautiful. Perhaps fewer of us would hate our bodies.
The obesity problem is that highly processed foods are high in empty, non-nutritious calories. Weight gain gets paired with malnutrition, which sickens the body struggling to find the vitamins and minerals necessary for survival. But rather than blame the disparity of incomes, or the products that get sold as food, we blame the people just looking to eat. It's the consumer's fault, just like it's the fault of those who were talked into taking loans they wouldn't be able to afford once the rates were adjusted for the economy tanking.
It is always troubling to see so much hatred and vitriol expressed by ignorant people who have a deep disdain for seeing "imperfection" in their cushy, perfect fantasy worlds full of eye candy. The reality is that the world is imperfect, full of unique, imperfect individuals that want to be treated the same and equally in this world. However ...
When more than one doctor tells you that you have to lose weight because your blood test results indicate that you are heading in the same direction as your diabetic, heart-diseased, immediate family members, you have to listen to him or her and TAKE CHARGE OF YOUR OWN HEALTH if you want to live a happy, long life. Yes, there are skinny people and perfectly healthy people that can drop dead at any given moment. And there are definitely fat people that stun their doctors like crazy when their test results indicate that they are perfectly healthy. My hats off to you!
But what I am trying to say is that I am getting fed up with fat activists telling me that "Oh, you don't need to lose weight. You are beautiful the way you are. Keep eating those Dunkin' Donuts. Your doctor is lying to you. Keep getting second, third, and even more opinions until you are satisfied ..." and such.
(Apologies for sounding like I am lecturous, but I have to bring this up out of personal experience within my family) Heart Disease and Diabetes are diseases that YOU REALLY DO NOT WANT. You have to constantly monitor your health and make sure you take your indeed over-priced medications no matter what else you are doing every day. You have to see the doctor frequently, too, and if you don't have an adequate health care plan, it's all you're spending your spare change on (or perhaps being forced to file for bankruptcy because it all adds up fast). You have to make time for some daily exercise, no matter how busy you are. If you develop complications, you are in the hospital. Diabetes and heart disease are not at all a fun diseases to have (no matter what your size). You suffer. Period.
What fat activists themselves need to do is respect the weight-loss wishes of those that are fat, but have found that they cannot be. They need to learn that just because they are fat and healthy does not mean that their best friends are. Anyone losing weight DOES NOT WANT TO BE ANOREXIC, let alone being a "Size 0". They just want to get healthy at their own pace.
Look. It's not saying that if your doctor is concerned, that you shouldn't change. That's no different than if your heart has plaque or you have a cavity. But being fat doesn't automatically mean you're unhealthy. That's a misconception. Just like being a runner makes you automatically healthy. Or exercise in general. Don't get me wrong, exercise is good, but diet has a lot to do with it too. If you're eating a lot of junk and you're exercising to keep the fat off, fine. That doesn't make the junk any more good for you. And sooner or later the body will figure it out that the stuff it's getting isn't providing the nutrients it needs.
"But being fat doesn't automatically mean you're unhealthy."
Here is the issue that it always seems to come down to. I very very rarely see anyone advocating that being fat means you MUST BE unhealthy, and that being thin means you MUST BE healthy. I mean yes, some hateful people on the street might say that, but I'm talking about within the space of a serious discussion, like in yesterday's FA thread.
In the post you're replying to, no one stated that fat automatically means unhealthy.
I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) the point was that sometimes fat people are perfectly healthy and sometimes thin people are completely unhealthy, but that OFTEN TIMES very unhealthy lifestyles can lead to overweight. and likewise, that it is somewhat common for someone's overweight to be caused by unhealthy lifestyles.
Does this mean that if you are fat, that you are unhealthy? NO, NO. Again, since people always seem to skip this part, NO!!
What it does mean, is that there is a strong enough correlation that overweight can be one indicator (among many) that maybe some health questions should be asked. Now, if you are fat, you might know that the answers to those questions are all good. But for some others, the answers are not good.
I think the problem that some people have with *certain aspects* of the FA movement, is that it sometimes discourages these questions from being asked.
There always have been, and always will be, people who are larger than others through no fault of their own. They excercise and eat right, but their genes make them gain weight.
HOWEVER, the rate of obesity is going up to unprecedented numbers, and that is most likely not from genes. This almost certainly means that in addition to these people who are fat despite healthy lifestyles, there are also lots of people who are fat because of their lifestyle choices.
None of these people should be judged or shamed for their weight, whether it came from personal choice or not.
But I think we should not be discouraged from asking health questions.
i see what you're saying but i've always interpreted the FA movement not as discouraging the questions from being asked, but rather emphasizing that these are questions that each person should be left free to ask themselves privately.
when people are constantly bringing those points up, it's as if they think fat people haven't had those questions shoved in their faces everyday. they're perfectly aware of the health issues.