An animal-related forum I post on regularly also has an off topic sub-forum, and this post recently appeared, by a new poster:
I have dropped by this site from time to time because I enjoy some of the lampooning of bad breeders and the "snarky" humor. I don't make comments because I don't know all that much. But I have noticed in a couple threads some real female angst over the men in their lives. This pains me because I have a daughter and think a great deal about what and how to teach her about men. If I may, I would offer a point of view. Only that - just a point of view. Don't get in a twist - it's just my opinion and I don't have an overly developed sense of it's value.
First of all, I love my wife. She is my best friend, my favorite companion, my most trusted advisor, and she still looks good to me after two kids and the wear and tear of living a full life. The entire Dallas Cheerleader squad could dance around the room naked and all it would do is embarrass me - and I don't mean I'd blush. My wife is the only one for me and I'd do without rather than dishonor her.
Let me also say that I'm not a man with a "feminine side". I don't have one, don't want one. I am coarse, rude, quick-tempered, sometimes I don't "get it", and always believe that people need to mind their own business. And you better believe I know a good-looking woman when I see one. I'm no great catch for my wife. I don't look like Sean Connery, don't act like Cary Grant. I married above my station in life but I'm pretty pleased with myself for doing so.
My wife has a saying: "You get what you settle for." She knows that men are warriors by design. We are not pigs, we are warriors. God compromised on a lot of other things to get this quality in us. My wife accepts this and has never - not once - tried to make me feel broken or weak. She has never, privately or publically, shown disrespect or tried to knock me off my rails. She believes that the best thing for her is strength and confidence in me. She knows that real men are the ones that stand on the deck while the women and children row away in lifeboats. She knows we are designed to demonstrate love through sacrifice and duty, not through weakness and subservience. We are simple, straightforward animals. Don't get some high expectations going about us because you're liable to be disappointed.
But she will not tolerate poor behavior in me. She will not tolerate swearing, vulgar jokes, or disrespect for women in any form either by me or anyone we come in contact with. As a result, my behavior has improved over the years and, frankly, I am a better man for it. She reminds me - respectfully - that she is watching, that others are watching, that our kids are learning. She reminds me of my job as "leader", my responsibility, and asks - insists - that I act like the leader. In doing so, SHE is leading by example. So allow me to say that if you are not treated by your man the way you want to be treated, you need to take responsibility for it. Don't settle for bad behavior. Set an example - and a high standard - because we will happily give you what you settle for.
Allow me to mention that despite her MBA and an important professional career, my wife has a biblical understanding of my nature and her role. I will not share beyond saying that she has never left me wanting, never forced me to be humble, and never used her power against me. She has a clear idea of what I am, what I need, and makes sure that I am not left daydreaming. In return she will never - not once in her life - ever wonder where I am or what I'm doing. She will never be dishonored by my behavior. She'll never catch me looking at another woman - I am aware she is watching all the time and she will never see it happen. There will never be a time when I side with someone else against her - she is right, 100% of time, even if she is wrong. She is my wife and, by definition, right, and God help the man or woman that challenges her. There is no danger I will not face for her, no task I will not attempt. I don't just tell her she's beautiful or special, I live it. I open her door even when no one is watching, take her arm walking through the snow out to the barn, put my coat over her shoulders, and dance her through the aisles at Wal-Mart whenever the music allows it. I whistle at her, leer at her, pat her behind, you name it. Every single day I find a moment to tell her I love her. Is this sappy? You bet. But she loves it and it makes her strong.
So my advice to you - man or woman - is if you want a trophy, accept the trade-off. But if you want the real thing, you know what do.
I found this incredibly insulting, but since I know many members of the community are quite conservative, I bit my tongue as much as I could. This is my response:
Some of us don't like being put on a pedestal. Some of us like an equal who will stand up to us when we're wrong, and support us (only) when we're right. Some of us don't like being "leered" at by anyone, hubby or not. Some of us like to be egalitarian partners, not actors in predefined, archaic roles.
And that's all I have to say about that bit of tripe.
Was I out of line? Am I being a big ol' meanie for not saying, "awww, you're so amazing, that's how all men should be" like everyone else? I get the impression that I'm about to be attacked for this, and I'm not quite sure how to respond to that, if at all.
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You hit the nail right on the head, and you did it without speaking for everyone, or being condescending. There was nothing "out of line" about your response.
I think your response was fine. The guy talks a good game-starts out by focusing on his devotion to his wife and what he feels he needs to bring to the relationship.He says women should hold their men to a higher standard of behavior. This is sort of refreshing considering most conservative men tend to focus only on what they expect women are "obligated" to do for THEM, rather than what they are bringing to the table. But as you read on, there are little things about his wording - he is in a "leader" position, she has a "biblical understanding" of her "role" and has "never left him wanting"--I presume he's implying that she's always up for sex when he wants it. Wonder what would happen if one night she didn't feel like it right at that moment.These little things lead me to believe that all this purported respect and devotion to his wife only goes as far as she's willing to essentially be his yes-man. She can have an MBA and "important professional career", as long as she remembers he calls the shots.You gotta read between the lines of a post like this.
Did he ever respond to what you wrote?
Honestly, you were stunningly restrained in your response. I doubt I could have managed such a thing in less than three pages and a fuckton of swearing to go with it.
The one thing I saw as missing from your response was this douchenozzle's attitude of "If your man is treating you wrong, it's your fault for not making him do better." Victim-blaming much?
Seriously, his whole diatribe made me almost inarticulate with disgust and rage. Congratulations on your calm and well-considered answer. You're a better woman than I.
Well, the thread turned into a 10-page disaster. I (and the two girls who supported me) were completely slammed as "man haters" who "want castrated men and women with testicles." (Yes, that is an actual quote.)
*sigh*
God, I hate people sometimes. Thankfully though, I felt more comfortable being aggressively feminist after I'd been attacked a few times. And of the two ladies who are on my side, one is an extremely intelligent poli sci major/gender studies minor, and the other is a very articulate young college kid. So at least I have literacy on my side. :P
I completely missed the victim-blaming thing, thanks for pointing that out, perhaps I'll bring that up if I'm goaded into responding again.
The original poster never returned, unfortunately, but one man on the board posted this:
"I haven't heard so much clucking since I got caught watching Oprah in the doctors office waiting to get called in.
It reminds me of the time I tried to open a door for this gal in Berkeley California and she took a swing at me.
I should have set her on he butt just to make her feel equal.
If half of you got dropped in the wilderness for a couple of months you would realize that it is the modern world and it's conveniences that allow YOU to have all the independence that you enjoy.Try being as independent in the third world...say Somalia!
All of a sudden Men would have a purpose."
What a shithead, eh?
It is kind of depressing that this poster thinks it takes deportation to Somalia for "men to have a purpose".
I don't know much about Somalia beyond it's well publicized problem with starvation through the '90s... hopefully things have impoved but I doubt it is any kind of paradise.
The men in my life have an important and valued role, not because they have a Y chromosome but because they are wonderful people. I love how women are "feminist man haters" when we expect the men in our lives to meet some sort of quality standards. We are the ones who think they are capeable of being good human beings.
As for the male poster to the animal forum, it's great that he has his act together in the fidelity department, I'm sure he loves his wife regardless of what I think of the structure of their arrangement, and I appreciate his message that women shouldn't "settle" for less than they want/deserve. I think that is an important one.
*But you don't get a cookie for doing what you are just 'supposed' to do.*
Talk about entitlement. Most men wouldn't last in other societies or the wilderness either! I'm talking the real deal too, with no guns. See how long he lasts. Anybody can talk survival training, lol. Men are no more adapted to life without modern conveniences.
And now the continued militarization of modern life has given men like him a renewed sense of purpose and they cling to that. But what is he supposed to be protecting exactly? Did the fool forget that men are the ones most likely to be killed in the very system he upholds? So who really needs the protection?
Not wanting to be put on a pedestal makes you a man-hater? That's some first class reasoning skills!
REAL MEN OF GENIUS: Mr. perpetuating sexism, traditional gender roles and double standards by wrapping it up in a tearjerker of a forum post about how much you love your wife...especially when she makes you sandwiches and gives you head....guy!
'Cuz, ya know, that's like her role in life. And stuff,
People like that just make me laugh.
hahaha i love your response! thanks, that made me smile. =)
You know, as a guy in a committed relationship with a strong woman, I have to say, what this guy is describing sounds like something I can do without. He makes it sound like his wife is a civilizing yet subserviant force to his coarse, yet virile power. She sets him straight, but still knows her place and absolutely LOVES IT when he pats her on the ass.
Yeah, how romantic. I'll stick with my partner, who has strengths and flaws, just like I do, will debate politics and philosophy with me, and lets me make my own damn sandwich.
My dream partner! LOL!