Yes, men still do this. It's part of the "game." I've been told that when a man "scores" a higher number, it makes him feel better about himself. So glad we're all here to make men feel better about themselves.
This practice has always enraged me. It reminds me of a dog show. I feel like the men who do this are out there in the bars with tape measures making sure we meet the AKC requirements for head size and sheen of coat.
I have to wonder what makes one human being feel that they have the right to apply a harsh, numerical, comparitive judgement on others. The way I understand it, it seems to be applied to groups of female friends. The guy who scores the highest ranking girl in the group, wins.
I remember back in high school I caught wind of a group of guys I knew applying the ranking system to my group of girl friends. These guys were supposed to be our friends, and some were even dating some of us. But, they felt the need to compare us based on breast size, body type, facial features, etc, and assign us numbers. We were in the smart kid classes with these guys, they knew we were more than bust sizes. Or did they? It bothered me a lot at the time- I felt violated to have been studying and judged without my permission. But I wrote it off as a high school boy thing.
What I have recently discovered (it's a very long story how) is that this ranking system is used by men of all ages and can be quite common. It seems also that the men who do it don't see anything wrong with it. They argue that everyone is attracted to certain looks, and the better looking girl they score, the better they feel about themselves. They don't seem to realize that comparing and judging other humans without their permission is a violation. They don't seem to realize that women don't like to have their body compared to their best friend's and get assigned a number accordingly. They don't seem to realize that women, no matter what they look like, do not exist to boost their own low self esteem. They don't seem to get that someone's value as a person can't be numerified and if it were it wouldn't be based on looks.
Basically, when I hear stories like this, I am led to believe that the men who do it don't see the women they are doing it to as people, fellow humans, not show dogs.
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I don't see how anyone can possibly avoid this. I see things, and I judge them. I don't need to sit down and think carefully about it. Reactions to stimuli are just there; they aren't carefully considered. Moreover, I don't see how anything that happens within the confines of my mind can be a "violation" of anyone or anything. I am free to think or feel however I want, and if I don't take any action on those basis then no one is affected in the least.
In other news, the way you have described this whole endeavor isn't necessarily representative of this process at all. I assign numbers, and so do all of my friends. I don't see any way around it and I'd be honestly surprised if women didn't do it. If I am more attracted to any person than any other person, then I can rank them. If I can rank them, then I can assign them values. Maybe the whole person get a number that is the aggregate of all their other numbers. Everyone has an appearance number, and a personality number, and a social status number, and any other number you want. And you can break those down into more component numbers. Personality subdivides into intelligence and sense of humor and whatever else you want.
I see the people who I'm judging as fellow human beings. If I didn't, I wouldn't think there were any other human beings. Judging people is just something that people do. You're doing it with this post. Maybe a guy who judges people all the time would lose a couple points on your personality scale.
I hope Buggie will correct me if I am wrong, but I think she was referring more to people who do it out loud--which is truly repulsive--and create a competition out of it. Compare notes on physical features and then assign numbers, like the girls in question were prizes they would rather receive. It's creepy, and it treats women like objects.
In that case I'd agree.
Right, I think that when you meet someone, your mind is instantly evaluating a lot of things all at once. I could never put numbers on people though, because I can't see a man and instantly determine how he compares to all other men in the world. The concept of assigning him a numerical value is just beyond my scope of understanding.
But it's the use of it as a descriptor that is truly creepy. For example, a guy tells a story about two girls, one he determines is a 5, the other, a 7, so he "targets" the 7. Why a 7? Why not "a girl I was attracted to." Assigning a 7 is like saying "yes, she had big boobs, but was a little chubbier than I would have liked." You're either attracted to someone or you're not, there's no reason to put everyone in a line up.
I can see a woman and instantly have a rough estimate of how she compares to most other women I've encountered. Is she more attractive or less attractive? How much so? She's more attractive than about 3 women for every 4. She's in the 75th percentile. She's an 8. That's all we're doing.
To me, this isn't right. It leaves me with a really bad feeling. Why do you WANT to do it? What difference does it make what "percentile" a woman falls into?
It's not a matter of "want". It's just something I recognize.
I've never had an experience where I've been aware of people ranking me and my friends as a group, but I have been ranked on the ten-point scale... while I was in the room, no less.
True Story:
Last year, the most social people on my hall were a group of boys and me--this made me "one of the guys" (sort of). I get cold easily so one night I was lying face down on the heater--which is on the wall of the room--while most of the guys were sat around on the couches at the center. So literally the closest one was maybe six feet away. Suddenly I hear numbers being called out.
"Wait, with or without personality?"
"Without."
"Hmmm..."
I shot up, "What the hell are you doing?"
"We're ranking how attractive you are on a 10-point scale," yes, he actually said that, "Hey R--" he called to a boy just leaving his room, gesturing at me, "On a scale of 1-10, without personality!"
"11. I'm not stupid."
I tried to chew them out for it, but they refused to see that they did anything wrong. "What, we gave you high numbers! What are you so pissed about?" It's hard to chew someone out satisfactorily when they act like your anger means nothing.
:sigh:
(PS They still don't see that they did anything wrong. The last time it came up in conversation I was told I should "just be glad" they "would all screw" me.)
Judging is inevitable, however ranking is another thing all together. I'm perfectly capable of looking at people and judging whether or not they are attractive without assigning them a number. "I like these features, but not those features," as opposed to "I'd make him a 6.5 out of 10."
I think the reason I don't like it, is because it relies on comparison. People have unique characteristics that are going to be liked by some and not by others. I don't want to think of myself as a 7 next to Angie who's a 9, and Christina the 4.5. Doing that to people shows an inability to fully appreciate them as they are, whether you find them attractive or not.
I think men rely on this system to calibrate themselves with their peers---which is why guys especially young men, tend to end up liking the same general type of "looks".
And that is where the problem lies. If it were just a matter of his opinion in his mind, then we wouldn't be having this conversation.
But in many cases, guys often don't keep it to themselves. In fact they do just the opposite. Guys often use these rankings to compete with one another or to justify to themselves and to their buddies why there are rejecting someone.
But here is what makes the process especially cruel: normally, people have an understanding that beauty is quite subjective. But by assigning a number to her, it turns her beauty, or lack thereof, into something objective, because now you are implying that she is quantifiable (even if the methodology and the scale used are crude, which they are).
My friends and I typically compare numbers as a study of the way we are attracted to different things. The interesting cases are when someone gives a girl a 6 and someone else gives her a 9. Of course, my friends and I are a highly biased sample and probably not representative of most men. So you're probably right still. But not necessarily all the time.
Exactly, all the comments are referring to what I was getting at in the post.
In terms of the girl who judged by her guy friends, this seems to be common, they seem to think if you get a high score, than you should have no problem with it. But it creates this idea that your body is under scrutiny. Those guys weren't trying to figure out if they were attracted to you, they were ranking your body parts. I think there's a huge difference. When I'm attracted to someone, I getting a whole impression of the entire person. I'm not adding up scores "ok, 7 for height plus 3 for butt, 6 for hands..." It's like you're the object of a science experiment.
Is it really so hard just to let each person be her own entity?
No, none of my friends assign numbers. We have never approached a man thinking, this guy is in the 66th percentile. The idea is so alien to me as to be completely ridiculous.
I personally find the practice disgusting. And no, it's not because I haven't been ranked highly- many of my male friends gleefully told me they all gave me a 9 while Heidi Klum is a 9.5 and a 10 just doesn't exist. Vomit.
We are not a bunch of disembodied body parts for your viewing pleasure. Would you ever tell your girlfriend that? Or anyone whose feelings you respected? Well, your face gets a 7, but your butt could be a little perkier so it gets a 3, and your boobs are full but lopsided so they get a 5 and it all averages out to a solid 5. But I REALLY respect you!!!
Talk about completely removing any semblance of humanity. Talk about a porn culture, where body parts are for the taking and ranking. Women should be able to go out in public, and relate to others, without being dissected and utterly disrespected in this fashion.
I agree with Lexicon. I don't quantify my attraction to individuals and give them some sort of score. Yes I can tell immediately whether or not I find someone instantly physically attractive, but no - in no way do I compare them to everyone else and come up with a number or percentile. Frankly, the idea bothers me. I'll think about it more and maybe reply again, but I think it is a fundamental difference somewhere at the core of how some people see others. It definitely isn't based on whether you are comfortable quantifying data - I am a researcher, so my job is to find ways to quantify and compare data, but somehow the idea of quantifying and comparing people on that scale just seems invalid.
Right, I am scientist and a very quantitative person, but this whole thing is so out of my realm of understanding, and it makes me feel very uneasy. I wonder if every time I go out and am seen by a man in public I am being scrutinized and assigned a number.
I just don't see people that way. Yes, I am attracted to some men and not others, but I could never quantify WHY that is so. I've dated men who all look totally different, I have no idea how I would even START to compare their looks.
And I agree, how could you ever tell your girlfriend that's she's a "7" or something? Either you are attracted to someone or you're not, if it's your girlfriend, she automatically would be a "10." And I really wonder how these guys would feel if one of their friends looked their sister up and down and said "3."
Fortunately though I've heard men say "So-and-so is hot" I've never heard them apply a number rating to anyone. Is this maybe a frat boy type thing?
I think it's natural that people are going to find some more attractive than others, but to actually do this within earshot of them is rude and insensitive. It could also potentially hurt their feelings and seems cruel.
I also have to admit I don't get the numbers thing, because I judge people's attractiveness on a case to case basis. Sometimes someone has an unusual feature or birthmark that's very striking on them, but wouldn't work on another guy's face. So how would you rank that on a scale?
I've given people numbers, but never to their face. I've done it with friends. It honestly doesn't work for me, because I don't think in numbers.
Everyone judges everyone else's appearance. Doing it where they can hear it is cruel. Judging your friends by what "number" they can attract is stupid. Judging someone's character by their attractiveness is equally bad. Judging someone's attractiveness is pretty normal (and frankly impossible to avoid) and isn't really a bad thing as long as you keep in mind that it doesn't actually mean a whole lot.