Hello, everybody. Before we get into this post, I would first like to say that I am very interested in everyone's opinions. I know this is a sensitive topic but I don't think it's been brought up before. I wish this wouldn't offend anyone, but I'm not going to get my hopes up. I worry that I will be attacked for what I'm about to bring up. This subject may cause triggers, so I urge you to read with discretion.
One of the foremost causes of the feminist movement deals with female sexuality and its place in society. It's not uncommon for females in Western society to be sexualized in ways that leave them victimized or brutalized. Women in this society are encouraged to be the "chased" instead of "chasing". They're objectified and suffer horrendous violent acts - particularly rape.
The issue I would like to address ties in closely with victimized sexuality. I would like to discuss the "rape fantasy".
Rape fantasy is fairly popular. It can be seen in milder forms in romance novels and movies, for instance, but is usually portrayed as when a woman previously unwilling is grabbed and kissed, etc, until she gives in and even enjoys the intercourse.
A very important thing to note is that rape and rape fantasy are significantly different in that a woman engaging in a rape fantasy is consenting. She has agreed to act out a scenario that simulates rape but is not actually being forced. She has a safeword or a hand gesture that immediately guarantees the end of the sexual role play, but if it is not obeyed, it is rape. Ideally, her partner and she have discussed all aspects of the scenario, including do's and don'ts and are both aware of the terms.
But the issue lies in the inherent violence of such an interaction. It is essentially a subset of BDSM (bondage/discipline, sadism/masochism), which means that it is about an exchange of power, and it makes me wonder:
Is BDSM naturally misogynistic? Does it only serve to reinforce gender roles? (Even in the cases of dominatrixes?) Are couples that engage in BDSM and rape fantasies violent or unhealthy, even if they don't hit or verbally abuse each other outside of their designated BDSM scenarios?
And what does this mean for the female's sexuality? Is she backtracking, so to speak, by reverting to archaic ideas of violent, sexual, male dominance? Can she actually enjoy and want to engage in such a role or does the context of her society make that an impossibility?
In defense of women who enjoy rape fantasies, I would like to quote (rather than discuss because I would rather not turn this into an essay) an article by Sharon Lamb entitled "The "right" sexuality for girls". In it, she discusses female sexuality and desire, and there are a few points that I feel relate to this subject. The first is:
"In the useful essay "Objectification," the philosopher Martha C. Nussbaum describes several forms of objectification. She notes that it is possible in an equitable relationship for one person to sexually objectify another without being exploitative or demeaning. She suggests that longing to be admired, wanted, and looked at as an object of desire is part of human nature, and it is possible to admire, want, and look fairly. In a just society, all people -- male and female; heterosexual, gay, bisexual, transgender -- should be able to have a sexual life in which they are both subjects and objects of desire, without exploitation."
The key idea here is that it is possible to be objectified without being exploited.
The second quote:
"To experience desire and sexual pleasure, on the other hand, seems to counter objectification. To desire involves being a subject rather than an object, and it requires a sturdy self that feels entitled and can stand up to the harmful effects of sexual violence and life in a society that seems to tolerate such violence."
What I understand from this quote is that by desiring, wanting and being actively engaged in sex, one is dispelling the harmful possibilities of sex. It is integral for there to be a back and forth, a discussion of pleasure and pleasuring, for this to be achieved by means that are agreed to by all parties.
If this is true, then a rape fantasy acted out by two people who agree, enjoy and desire the scenario and each other is as healthy as vanilla sex. That though the role play suggests an inequality in power, the power is actually equally shared by all involved as long as acting out the fantasy doesn't degenerate into a violent reality of rape.
And so if a woman is consenting and enjoying the rape fantasy, is she being exploited? Certainly she's being objectified, but I feel that it is impossible to have sex and not be objectified, no matter what gender you are, no matter how vanilla or kinky your sex may be.
My stance is that rape fantasy is not rape and is not exploitation, but an exploration of sexuality that perhaps not everyone is willing or wishing to engage in. I find that it objectifies both roles - the dominant and the submissive - but that both experience pleasure and are thus active members of a sexual act. Playing out such a fantasy and any BDSM scenario requires an exorbitant amount of trust and rule-following to prevent it from turning into actual violence or rape.
So what do you all think?
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but I feel that it is impossible to have sex and not be objectified, no matter what gender you are, no matter how vanilla or kinky your sex may be.
I think this is based on a very narrow interpretation of objectification. Generally in this context being objectified does not simply mean "being the object of someone's desire" but something more like "being reduced to the object of someone's desire." This means that there's no door open for reciprocity in a relationship, there's no concern for her desire or pleasure, since objects don't experience these things. I think the key issue here is reciprocity and viewing your partner as an autonomous being.
I always think of this in terms of one of the versions of Immanuel Kant's Categorical Imperative: Treat each person as an end in themselves rather than merely a means to an end. A rapist treats the victim as merely a means to an end. An exploitive employer treats the employee as merely a means to an end. In a healthy, reciprocal sexual relationship you do treat each other as means to an end, but also as an end in themselves, because you are also concerned with each others pleasure. To think of the other person as an autonomous being with goals, desires, interests, motivations... of their own is to see them as an end in themselves, and that's what makes the difference.
On rape fantasies - I used to feel contempt for women who had these. I felt they knew nothing about the subject, and they were somehow "gloating" how lucky they were to not know how bad it is. Now I just feel they are playing at fairy tales.
Also I've noticed that there are people who used the word "rape" playfully as a synonym for rough or vigorous sex. ("Oh, I'm going to rape my boyfriend tonight, tee-hee!") I'll be honest, I think this sounds stupid. I imagine these are the same kinds of people who think Edward Cullen is romantic when he stalks and dominates his girlfriend or whatever.
On whether BDSM is inherently misogynistic-well, are we assuming the male is always topping and the female always bottoming? Are we assuming the participants are in fact male and female and not a same sex couple? Or that the top is the one calling the shots when it is in fact the bottom who decides when and if to use the safeword? There are so many variables in BDSM, it might warrant it's own topic.
I don't think there's anything wrong with rape fantasies. It's kinky, but kinky isn't bad.
I've heard feminists talk about how BDSM is bad for women, and that's complete bullshit. If the people are consenting -- and S&M people are way more careful about consent than most vanilla couples -- there's not a problem. Everyone should explore their sexuality, as long as they can do it without hurting anyone. (Anyone who doesn't WANT to be hurt, that is.) Among the people I know I feel like rape fantasies are much more common among the women, and it's easier to find a submissive woman than a dominant man. I'm not at all sure about this, though. Does anyone have any statistics?
The other feminist argument against rape fantasies is that they come from a bad place. I also don't think this argument holds up. I don't know what they were caused by (although I kind of think the fact that I'm a feminist has something to do with it) but even if it was something bad the fantasies themselves aren't bad. They turn me on regardless so I might as well experiment.
Among the people I know I feel like rape fantasies are much more common among the women
I think this is true, and that it's a reflection of our cultural gender norms. A friend of mine thinks that for many women, rape fantasies are a way to relinquish control in order to participate in a sexual experience without feeling like a "bad girl." Like if you give all the control to your partner then you're not responsible for your experience. In a culture where women are so often taught to reign in their desires, to be the "gatekeepers," and that good girls don't desire sex outside of some conventional "making love with your soulmate" bullshit, this makes a lot of sense. So I think that the aspects of our culture that cause women to experience sexuality this way are seriously problematic.
I also think it's more acceptable for a woman to admit to rape fantasies than a man. A woman with rape fantasies is pretty normal. A man with rape fantasies has to worry about seeming like an actual rapist.
The idea of being a "gatekeeper" is one of the reasons for rape fantasies. Some women are into the idea of having a man desire them so much he can't stop himself. Some people are just into the power dynamic, or the taboo. Like I said, I'm pretty sure I have rape fantasies in part because I'm a feminist.
There's no one cause for everyone.
Yeah, I don't think there's one explanation that accounts for everyone. But I think that some of the seriously problematic gender norms in our culture (like the gatekeeper ideology) often do give rise to these kinds of dynamics.
It's not the same thing, but a pretty consistent one for me is the seductress who I can't resist. It's the same surrender of control, although without mimicking a real life HORRIFIC situation.
I'd be freaked out, I think, if a girlfriend told me she had rape fantasies even if she never asked me to take part in them.
I don't think BDSM or rape fantasies are always necessarily sexist. I see it the same way I do porn: porn isn't the problem, but IS morally iffy and sexist because society is the same. Art imitates life, sex imitates life, etc. I think people would be kinky in a gender-less world but in power-play the number of submissive women and men would be about equal, instead of most women being bottoms.
Really, the best way I found to deal with this was by looking at what happens to the sexuality of sexual abuse victims. (I'm one myself too.) Often kids who've been molested have violent sexual fantasies and can't achieve arousal or orgasm without violence, even though it's triggering as well. The earliest sexual experiences are really important to the development of sexuality. So basically, through receiving media messages of submissiveness and vulnerability, we're conditioned to associate that with sex. It's very difficult to change this conditioning, which is why I can still see feminists having rape fantasies-so LONG as they acknowledge the cultural conditioning/origin of the desire to act them out.
Another problem is the way society presents rape. People see it as a crime of passion and uncontrolled lust, NOT a calculated expression of control. Add this to teaching women their only value comes from being "desirable" and pretty, and you have women wanting to be the most desirable. Simply put, it goes like this: when society says women's value=beauty/desirability and rape=overwhelming desire, then women fantasize about being raped-essentially, being the most "valuable" achievement.
Sorry if my thoughts are unclear, I'm not good at getting them across. It's hard for me stay coherent about something that's really recent and hard for me. (Left my rapist a few months ago, PTSD, etc.)
Something else that occurred to me, along with the rape fantasy are other fantasies that relate to real life wrongs--like people who have Nazi "She Wolf of the SS" type fantasies or I've even heard there are some African Americans who engage in "slavery" roleplay.
I'm not going to pretend I understand these fantasies any more than I understand a rape fantasy. If a partner wanted to engage in these types of games with me, I honestly would not feel comfortable doing it. But I was wondering how others feel about this stuff and how it fits into the discussion?
I feel like those fantasies are fantasies precisely because they're taboo. You can't fight them by explaining that they're wrong or offensive, because that just makes them hotter.
I feel like that's a lot of the reason I have rape fantasies. I've been a feminist on some level for as long as I can remember. When I was a little kid I was super into "girl power" and all of that. Eventually it morphed into actual feminism. I started masturbating at a very young age, and even when I was too young to think about sex (it kind of grossed me out) I thought about boys telling me they were better than me because they were male. As I got older they turned from kinky sex to full on rape fantasies.
Which brings me back to the whole thing where Nazi porn is really popular in Israel.
Fantasy is pretty much uncontrollable. You can control how you express it, but you can't control what turns you on. Pretending it doesn't exist won't help, and giving it a harmless outlet is probably healthy.
They did a study and they found that with increased internet use, and thus easier access to porn, instances of rape and sexual assault actually went down. I don't know where this fits into the conversation, but I feel like it's relevant.
In the few experiences I have had with women that wanted the rape fantasy fulfilled, they (the women) wanted to be raped at a time and place that would take them completely by surprise, and specifically raped by me.
Did I fulfill those request?
I'll never say, but two factor I took into consideration was the mental state of woman requesting, was she emotion together and able to be independent and take care of herself, and was she willing to sign a consent form that stated she was consenting to let me rape her at time and place of my choosing (in case I got caught raping her).
Needless to say the rape fantasy is not for those who aren't ready and willing to yield a lot of their power and control to someone else, but that is the whole appeal to DBSM, which is the feeling that you can safely and comfortably release all of your control and power to someone you know you can trust.
A woman can't contractually give up control of her body and agree to be raped. It's similar to selling oneself into slavery ... it's not doable. It's not legally legitimate.
True
But I felt confident it would have gotten me off in court, if I had gone through with fulfilling the fantasy.
Remember, it was her fantasy, not mine (I have no desire to ever rape someone), and I would have only considered fulfilling her rape fantasy if the conditions I had stated had been met (assurance of her mental and emotional stability, assurance of her independence and ability to take care of herself, and her signing a form saying that carrying out the rape fantasy was what she wanted me to do).
I have a problem deciding how much nihilism I want to let from my philosophical realm into the real world.
I hate the idea that BDSM is inherently misogynistic. That means that suddenly a whole lot of feminists, good feminists, suddenly aren't. Sorry, but no, if I like being tied down and called a whore, that doesn't mean I'm partaking in something honestly sexist.
Lets have some perspective here, please. People can do these things perfectly consciously and conscientiously.
Is there such thing as a bad feminist?
I think the only bad feminist is the one who prescribes to "isms", especially sexism. Otherwise, no???
There are colluders. But deep down they're not really feminists, I suppose.
You mean like Sarah Palin?
She said was a feminist, then she kind of hesitated, then she said she was a feminist.
Exactly. And she generally does not support woman-friendly policies and legislation, but instead kisses up to male politicians in order to not be too threatening... a total colluder.
What I find interesting about rape fantasies is that it's not rape but a fantasy. Rape means a lack of consent. The woman is consenting to agressive (perhaps even violent depending on the scenario) sex. So for me, while I have a hard time grasping the concept of a rape fantasy, I can't view it as rape. The woman in this scenario (unless she has been an actual victim of rape) can't possibly feel what a victim feels in this situation, so it is not rape at all. This may mean that this fantasy cannot be called a rape fantasy; it's an aggressive/dominating sex fantasy.
No one fantasizes about rape. They fantasize about dominating, aggressive, (maybe even violent) sex in which both parties are consenting and have control over the situation.
I had a girlfriend who "liked it rough" and wanted to roleplay rape. I couldn't/wouldn't do it. I was naive then and my only reaction was revulsion at the idea. Now that I'm older and have a better idea of protecting myself, I also wouldn't do it because I wouldn't want to end up explaining to a judge. Plus it's still horrifying.
Yeah.
Legally there are definitely more risks for the dominant one in the BDSM relationship than there are for the submissive one.
But being dominant is a lot of fun, and there are a lot of better and more interesting ways to be the dominant one than having to fulfill a rape fantasy.
When you are the dominant one, you have to realize that you are the one fulfilling fantasies, not the one with the fantasies.
Which is why most men prefer to be the submissive one in BDSM relationships. More men tell me their fantasies of being anally violated by a woman with a strap-on than women tell me their fantasies of wanting to be raped.
I think it would be unfortunate to declare any sexuality that takes place between consenting adults (or maybe just in one consenting adults head) inherently sexist. Feminism is about freeing women, so why constrain them with judgements about their sexuality?
It brings up a good question; if someone's (a man's or a woman's) sexual proclivities are harmful to themselves or someone else, then is it okay to let them go through with their sexuality?
For instance men or women who are into beastiality; is it okay to let them carry out their sexual desires?
Or worse, a pedophile?
I have never had a problem with the rape fantasy, as long as the person with the rape fantasy was mentally and emotionally stable and together as a person (independent and able to take care of themselves).
But of course I am %100 against a man (or woman) carrying out his (or hers) raping someone fantasy.
But I don't think that all judgments about sexuality are necessarily a judgment of the person themselves. I think you can critique the culture that gives rise to this kind of sexuality, or the context in which this kind of sexual desire is formed, without judging the person. In that case it's a systemic critique that doesn't view people as having developed in some kind of vacuum, but instead tries to look at how the culture we live in shapes female (or male) sexuality and constructs sexual desire.
Just out of curiosity, do you have a mind-body ontology that seems to allow free will? I'm some sort of physicalist, but I think our understanding of physics is probably severely limiting our conception of the supervening qualities allowed by highly complex systems that eventually get us to subjective mental states. In any case I don't see any way to get free will or objective morality without appealing to something very... queer, so I have a hard time figuring out where even to start talking about some things.
I think that probably some arbitrary moral rules are just necessary from a utilitarian standpoint because people are such products of their environment that when we start letting everyone know that morality is completely subjective it's going to become an increasingly slippery slope. I think that a lot of people's viewpoints have all sorts of weird consequences that they don't even think about. And the more commonly accepted every unusual fetish becomes, the more unusual every succeeding generation's fetish's are going to become. And the problem is that there's no real distinction between consenting adults and children: people's behavior is completely determined. Of course, I can't really track any of this as right or wrong on a fundamental level; but I just feel like at some point this is going to lead to a net loss in utility. As more and more morality becomes subjective I think that it's going to really be harder to justify law in general. When everyone knows that you only restrict behavior because it's mutually beneficial, it's harder and harder to actually condemn people for breaking laws, because now everyone knows that their behavior is probably subjectively rational, or that it wasn't that much of a "choice" in the first place. I have constant problems like these.
Hmm...complicated topic for one comment... =)
On the topic of free will, I would describe myself as some sort of compatibilist. I think that human behavior is deeply determined by social context, but I also think that the way human consciousness works results in a kind of causality all its own. For instance, it seems clear that at times people will behave in a predictable way based on previous life experiences, but once they're prompted to really think the issue through, or they reach the maturity level where they can do this, or acquire the cognitive tools for it, they do sometimes undergo a radical attitude change which produces behavioral change. So I guess my position is that the old free will vs. determinist binary is too oversimplified and can't truly account for human experience and behavior. This is probably due to my Wittgensteinian outlook. And then there's Habermas...
So I think that issues like this are really interesting and complicated. I think that humans are clearly capable of developing some degree of rational autonomy (not in the extreme Enlightenment sense, of course) which does render them morally responsible to some extent. That doesn't mean that social factors and life experience don't factor in. I just think that human choice is circumscribed by these factors. In fact, I think that cultural influences run much deeper than most people imagine. The formation of sexuality is a great example of this. People talk as if their sexuality formed in a vacuum, which I find incredibly naive. From birth we're inundated with implicit (and sometimes explicit) messages about sexuality that are undeniably internalized. But I do think that reflective people will kind of process this stuff and can reject some of it and change their own outlook/desire to some extent. So the challenge is to create a cultural context which maximizes the conditions for developing autonomy. For instance, if the male gaze was not such a prevalent force in our culture, I really do think that female sexuality would develop very differently. For one thing, we wouldn't have the GGW phenomenon. I also think that, as nattles_thing always points out, cultural taboos give rise to certain fetishes and desires. So I think we should move past the old free will issue and try to view humans as these rational and emotional beings who are deeply influenced and shaped by their context, but still able to think and feel their way through the world and impact their own views and desires through reflection and the exploration of alternative. I'm not sure if that answers your question...
One thing I've noticed in the past year that I've become a feminist and aware of women's issues is that my sexual fantasies have also changed. In the past (my pre-feminist days) I freely fantasized about all kinds of scenarios that would be considered demeaning, including rape. Now though, I don't find as much pleasure in that. Or rather, I do, but after acting on that pleasure, I feel sullied and violated afterward, not aroused. Nowadays, I fantasize much more often about more consenting, reciprocal kinds of sex, or sex with women. That there has been this change in my fantasies and what I find pleasurable, seems to point to the possibility that these fantasies were largely the product of a mysognistic and heteronormative culture that had seeped into my mindset. I still have rape fantasies occasionally, but I can't say I'm comfortable with them. I feel very guilty about them, to be honest. That's why I'm glad this post was written. It's definitely very thought-provoking and I look forward to hearing more comments about it.
That's interesting, because - while I can't say I've been into rape fantasies all my life, having virtually no idea of what those were throughout early childhood - I've never really experienced a change in my sexual fantasies from acting out domination scenarios with my batman action figure and my barbie doll at six years old to roughhousing with my boyfriend at twenty. I only really declared myself a feminist this year, though I've had vague feminist philosophies my whole life, and I've found the new awareness doesn't change my sexual outlook at all.
Perhaps it's impossible to say whether sexual fantasies are affected by your general outlook on life as it varies from person to person?
That's interesting. Like I've said elsewhere in this thread, I'm pretty sure the entire reason I have rape fantasies is BECAUSE of my feminism.
I always feel a bit sad when a woman says that she feels like her desires are unfeminist. If you're not into them anymore, that's fine, don't do them. If they still turn you on but you feel ashamed afterwards, that might be something to examine more closely. I don't know your situation, so I'm not going to tell you what to do or how you should feel, and I'm not going to say anything more.
In my case I feel like I can trace back exactly where my sexuality comes from.
I have a history where for a short time I was abused, where I was made to do things which I was too young to understand. So for me being active and participating was linked back to the abuse and manipulation. I then got into Yaoi (two male characters having sex) where the first stories I read were of one male character assaulting another. These stories became perfect for me as they allowed me a rape fantasy where I could distance myself even further from the victim in the fantasy while still identifying.
I'm happy to say I think I've grown sexually and can now enjoy 'consensual fantasies' and identify with active female participants as well. I think Feminism has helped me a lot with this.
I can't imagine an actual rape fantasy but to me there is something nice about telling a guy he can do whatever he wants to you while knowing for certain that he won't actually go too far. It's nice to trust someone like that.
I can't remember who said it, but one queer theorist believed that BDSM sex was one of the best antidotes for heterosexual gender roles (assuming that you were willing to play both poles of the power dynamic).
Leo Bersani, another notable queer theorist, said that sex is inherently based on a power dynamic, and that attempts to sanitize it of anything resembling dominance or submission would fail. As a theorist of predominantly gay male culture, he believed that chosen domination was actually less fulfilling than chosen submission -- that sex is ultimately more satisfying when we relinquish some control than insist on keeping as much of it as possible.
All of these utopian views of BDSM sex presuppose a high amount of trust between partners, but I think they're worth considering once you're in a committed relationship.
I do want to clarify just a bit - it seems rape fantasy is sort of inclusive of everything from naughty-schoolgirl scenarios to actually planning an ostensible rape at unexpected moments. I'm more in the naughty-school girl camp.
While I think it IS important to analyze where these fantasies come from, I admit to always feeling a bit vulnerable whenever this discussion comes up, because it deals with such nebulous territory. I feel like what I do is legal and ethical - I'm not hurting anyone, and my boyfriend of three years and I have had major discussions to ensure we're both comfortable and happy with our sex lives. True, the content of my fantasies are iffy, but they are FANTASIES, and do not conform to reality's standards. I've had fantasies about smacking my boss across the face and calling her all sorts of names under the sun, but that does not make me an abusive person. Why should rape fantasies then mark me indelibly as a submissive person in all walks of life?
Though these fantasies are about rape, I feel like any trappings of non-consent are negated by my boyfriend and I having to give consent and assure one another repeatedly that we are both happy and willing. I don't see how this is inherently sexist at all, unless we are to go so far as to say that anything that seemingly puts women down - etc. heels, makeup, the occasional desire to be longed for sexually - is inherently sexist.
It's weird. I fantasize about and actually engage in lots of things that would fall into the BDSM category. But none of them involve roleplaying non consent scenarios or misogynist language. Not saying there's anything wrong with people who are into that, but it totally kills it for me.
This is just a general comment to the couple of posts I saw that claimed the rape fantasy is just "aggressive or violent sex" - rape fantasy is not just violent/aggressive sex. It's about pretending to be taken against one's will. That's what's key and it doesn't necessarily have to be aggressive the entire way through. There are several scenarios that fall under that category, including very drawn out scenes where someone gets caught off-guard by their partner, there are scenes where sex is initiated during sleep, there are scenes where someone is tied down and then slowly teased (if not to be TMI) but always the key component is resistance.
It doesn't matter how the scenario or sex is carried out, it's not a rape fantasy unless someone is resisting.
I'm not into policing women's fantasies or telling them what they should and should not fantasize about.
I agree with some of the comments higher up. I like to surrender control to my partner, but similarly he likes to surrender control to me every now and then. I used to think it was about rape fantasy but it turns out it's just me enjoying being wanted uncontrollably (when he's doing it) or wanting someone uncontrollably (when I'm doing it).
I think it's important to note, also, that my desires DO NOT constitute a rape fantasy, even if it does involve threats and complete bodily control etc. I think the difference is wanting to be EXTREMELY DESIRED and wanting to be hurt. Rape to me is a form of violence, so rape fantasy to me would have to involve physical pain similarly to BDSM.
I think those who identify my desires as "rape fantasy" would be those who see rape as being about a man "unable to control himself around a sexy girl" rather than about power and violence. It's wrong to label it that way because rape is not about desire, in the end. That's why rape fantasy is a form of BDSM and not a form of "wanting to be wanted".
Not sure if I'm making sense or representing my point of view accurately, but hopefully you get what I mean.
hrmm ok after re-reading Eresbel's comment I'm now a bit conflicted.. because in my "control surrender" with my partner I do like to 'resist' but because it's enacted in such a pleasurable and non-violent way, I find it really difficult to reconcile my resistance with actually calling it a rape fantasy. I feel like there's some discrepancy there, and to call what I do a 'rape fantasy' or 'rape re-enactment' is to kind of soften the blow and down-play how violent rape is as a sexual act, especially when for me it's just the thought of resisting and being controlled a bit. I'm a bit conflicted here. Thoughts?
I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with BDSM - it doesn't bother me at all.
HOWEVER, it seems to me (and i don't believe there exist any stats to prove this either way, which is why i said "seems to me") that if you were to take a random sampling of straight women who enjoy some form of power play (from really really light stuff to hardcore BDSM - whatever), most would be into playing submissive roles (as opposed to dominating ones). And if you take straight men....well, you see where i'm going with this.
now supposing that I am right...
THIS bothers me. a LOT.
I think that this is simply our sexist culture permeating our sex lives. and that sucks.
I think that those who have those fantasies would benefit greatly from exploring their sexual inclinations. However, this may sometimes leads one to discover that their fantasies are rooted in their sexist culture, which can potentially fuck with your head and your sex life (this is OBVIOUSLY not the case for everyone since i do think that power play in sex is natural for some and loads of ppl are bound to be naturally inclined to play a submissive or dominating role).
I remember there was a poster on feministing, a long time ago who personally adressed this very issue. She said that she was unable to have an orgasm unless she was humiliated and abused in some way during sex. She also said that this was due to being raised in a misogynistic culture (I trust that she explored her own psychology and sexual inclinations and came to this truth that she found out about herself - i refuse to dismiss her conclusions). She was also obviously not happy with this realization and her inclinations, and i'm guessing this caused her discomfort and distress vis-a-vis her sex life.
And that sucks A LOT>
Power play, kinky sex, BDSM, rape fantasies. All that is fine, it's great if that's what you're into, if you're comfortable with the fact that you're into it and if this preference in sexual play is TRULY YOUR OWN.
But I'd like to construct a culture where sexism or racism don't mold your sexual inclinations.... because they don't exist. Until then, i think culture will keep influencing even our most basic drives.
PS: I'm babbling and a LOT of this is half baked so feel free to tear it apart if you're so inclined ;)
And also, If the poster i'm speaking about recognizes herself - i apologize if i made any mistakes while summarizing your comment - and you're surely much better equiped to express it clearly than I...
BDSM goes both ways. Men can be "raped" by women as well.
In BDSM there is the term "topping from the bottom" in that the bottom is actually the one with all the power because they get all the "pleasuring" and have the power to stop everything via use of a safe word.
i think a lot of women do have fantasies about being MILDLY COERCED into sex. obviously romance novels reinforce them or are a proof of that (why would women read them)
my personal view is that it also depends on the man. women fantasize being 'mildly coerced' by those attractive masculine men resembling Fabio, or some firefigher or man in uniform or in authoirty.
so a gray area would be if a woman really encounters such a man/situation in real life. if a woman goes on a date with such a man and he coerces her into sex when she resists and says no initially but later on she begins to enjoy it as her rape fantasies are being fulfilled now. and this happens unplanned.
obviously it would be rape technically, legally. but how would you see this situation?
im sure there are such men out there who are in positions or authority and are highly attractive and masculine who get away with this because women enjoy it later. but its still rape in the technical sense.
I might be vilified here, who knows. But given my position in forums where a lot of these fantasies take place, are executed, and sometimes taken to entirely new levels, I hope I can offer some insight that might interest people.
rustyspoons comment struck me. As if women who have been raped never have these fantasies. That seems to be such a common assumption that it seems to be quite traumatic for such victims to experience, inherently thinking that there is something wrong with them for it.
I thought it was strange at first, when many of the friends I engaged in this sort of thing with started discussing their own rapes, or friends who were raped wanted to carefully explore their fantasies with me. Granted, I haven't done any real scientific study, and my sample size has a rather serious bias towards role players in general, but whether or not a woman has been raped does not seem to affect whether or not they actually hold these fantasies, at least in terms of numbers.
It definitely affects how they approach it. Especially in the most brutal cases, I feel like a stand-in for therapy for one girl.
For her, and people like her, I don't think it's healthy to stigmatize such fantasies.
Extremely unscientific... but, my two cents : )