Have you ever had the very very definite impression that, no matter what you do or say to avoid sexual assault or just being used sexually, when you find yourself alone with a male acquaintance, you're wrong?
The reason I bring this up is because at my age, even though I haven't had nearly the same level of attention as I did 20 years ago, I still get more than I want sometimes. For a while I thought I was safe not assuming anything. Then, just two months ago, I was staying at a male friend's place and he came on to me. I was able to say no but he kept asking for four or five times until I left to keep traveling.
Because this happened, once I got to my final destination and a male neighbour wanted to come and visit, I stated very clearly once he came over to please not flirt with me and that I had a boyfriend in another city. He protested that of course he wouldn't do such a thing. However, he'd had about ten drinks. He gave me a hug about three times. I was ambivalent about this because maybe he was being friendly. He'd been extremely friendly just before, shoveling out my steps for me. He didn't do more than give a hug. However, since that day, I haven't seen hide nor hair of him.
Now I haven't been assaulted and not quite harassed (except somewhat by the first guy, but he didn't get upset about my refusing him and didn't retaliate).
However, it made me think that, in most cases, when you don't say anything up front, men assume you're willing or sexually available and get upset when you say no because you didn't say anything and you should have known and how were they supposed to know you didn't want to. But then, when you *do* say something, a lot of times men will get offended and say you're assuming way too much, and who do you think you are, etc.
How many women out there know what I'm saying and have been there?
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Totally.
I do. It really is a catch-22. You don't want to be sexist and assume no men can handle an opposite sex relationship, but you also want to err on the side of caution, so that no one's feelings get hurt.
I am finding it easier to deal with as I get an idea of what I need to look out for and so I can nip it in the bud if need be.
I know exactly what you're talking about. I have a friend to whom this seems to happen to way too often. Just yesterday she met up with a male friend who came unto her, kissing her and trying to initiate something. About two months ago, there was a similar incident with another guy friend. And, both these times, she was dating someone else! I don't understand it. I spoke to one of my boyfriend's roommates about this issue the other day, and his response was "How are guys supposed to know that a girl isn't interested?". I tried to explain my side: "Why do you assume a girl is interested?" and "We can flirt without wanting to initiate something intimate" etc. But, we just had different perspectives.
This is a little difficult. How does one tell the difference between flirting with no intention to initiate something intimate and flirting with actual interest in such a possibility? How do they look different? (Short of the utterly obvious behaviors like draping themselves on your shoulder and whisper that they want you to take them home; and yes, when it's unreciprocated that is uncomfortable to be on the receiving end, whether you are male or female.)
"Why do you assume a girl is interested?" Should a guy just assume that all girls are by default disinterested? Actually, I already do that. 99.9% of the female population express their disinterest by ignoring my existence or by treating me in a non-flirtatious manner, and I respect that as a boundary. I'm not going to go bother somebody who clearly doesn't know me from Adam or doesn't care to. So, of the ones that DO flirt, how do I tell the ones who are genuinely interested from the ones that are just horsing around? When the situation is ambivalent, one of you has to ask the question in order to clarify. We don't read minds.
This is a rather different question from the original poster, who seems to be talking about men who are making advances in a vacuum or even in the face of negative interest. The males she cites as examples are royal clods. A single "no" or "warning off" should be more than sufficient.
Part of the problem is that women are conditioned to avoid hurting the feelings of others. Another issue is that men hear "Well, I'm not sure..." as "Keep trying." Women need to be more assertive about their desires, and say No when they're not interested.
If a man keeps pushing, then yeah, he's a cad, and the friendship isn't worth maintaining anyway.
This one is simple. **Before** you manipulate your way into being completely alone with a woman and making her uncomfortable by coming on to her, you tell her how you feel and you ask if she reciprocates. Clearly. Directly. Simply. Then, if she says no, you say "okay" and you **drop it**. You stay gracious. You move on and keep the friendship with her. You do **not** make her feel like you will only be friendly and kind if she agrees to sleep with you. That's an asshole thing to do. You *especially* do not express resentment and/or start insulting her, in front of others or not. Every boy should learn this at the age of 12. It's called acting like a decent human being.
I totally know where you're coming from. I was just talking about this today. A friend of a friend keeps trying to come on to me- and I've made it very clear that I have no interest in him- to the point of this most recent conversation:
Him: We should really hang out.
Me: Why?
Him: I dont know, why don't you want to?
Me: Because you'll try something.
Him: Well you can always say no if I do. But what's so bad about me trying something anyways?
Me: Because I don't like you. I'm not attracted to you that way.
Him: Well, like I said, you could say no.
Note that he won't talk to me for weeks or months, but then miraculously comes around when he hasn't "gotten any" in a while- and thinks I'm going to give it to him (when he's had NO success in the past). But was I unclear with my decline? I mean, god, no means no. I don't like you- stop hitting on me!
"But what's so bad about me trying something anyways?"
Dude, what's so bad about it is that you've just been informed that your potential hanging-out partner isn't interested, and you're still going on as if it might be a possibility. "Well, like I said, you could say no." Idiot, she just said no, in no uncertain terms, and you are treating her response pretty cavalierly. You are being deliberately obtuse, which is not an attractive trait. (Not to mention giving the rest of us guys a bad name.)
Am I the only person on the planet who thinks that "Green Eggs and Ham" is a totally dysfunctional message? Lol. If I just keep pestering you long enough, you'll eventually come round to my point of view, and you'll even like it!
"I do not like [you], Sam-I-Am!"
I completely know what you're saying. There was a period of time when I was a single for about a year and a half. Throughout that time, every single guy I was with alone and in a private situation tried to kiss me. I was somewhat young and naive and thought it was possible for a guy you met in your college class or at work would want to just hang out and be friends. But, in my experience, that's simply not the case. Most guys will not put in any effort to begin a relationship with a girl unless he's attracted to her. When they're alone, he's going to try something. That's just the reality that I have lived in. So, with very few exceptions of men that I have been friends with for years, I simply know that I shouldn't be alone with a man unless I'm interested in being physical with him. It may feel unfair, but it simplifies things and lets you avoid uncomfortable situations.
This has been my experience as well. I am simply not alone with a heterosexual man unless absolutely necessary and am careful to give off "not interested" signals, but still sometimes even men I have known a long time who know I am married will try to test the waters with an inappropriate touch or invitation. I know there are men who can be platonic friends, but I haven't met enough of them to use that as a baseline. On the other hand, I have known a lot of men who seem to be waiting for their moment - so to avoid awkwardness and potential danger I just stay out of the situation when I can.
A good guy will never make you feel uncomfortable.
Your story really pisses me off, I think mostly because this will only change when we (as in society) start raising our sons to be respectful of and receptive to the feelings of others--man or woman.
Now that's just crazy...teaching men (boys) to behave like decent human beings instead of teaching women to be gatekeepers. Next thing you'll want to teach boys not to rape instead of teaching women how not to be raped.
I agree with instrumentjamlord. I ALWAYS make the assumption that EVERY woman out there is unavailable and not interested in me. Thus, I will never touch, or flirt with a woman no matter what the circumstances (it's okay to touch her if you need to perform emergency action though).
I just let the women make the first move. If she touches me, then I may touch her back. If she asks me out on a date, then I would likewise reciprocate. Until she says "I like you", I always assume that she's not interested.
I think this may be a solution to how women get so uncomfortable being alone with men. In this way, the men are the ones who wait for a CLEAR & DIRECT signal from the women to show that they're interested, thus allowing women to be more comfortable and giving them more power.
One of the ways that I have dealt with this recently with a male neighbor I've befriended is to tell an anecdote from work to kind of set the tone for how I deal with being hit on when I'm not interested. I'm a female tattoo artist and I have to put up with the little flirtatious comments while working given the close proximity I have to work in with people, and I generally give a stern yet still in good fun warning that I can make the tattoo hurt much worse without affecting quality for each little remark they make. Generally that gets them to quit it while still being friendly as clients. When it came to the neighbor, after I told him that story in casual conversation about work he didn't even edge towards that line of talking whatsoever anymore. I found that it made it pretty clear how I felt about someone putting me in the position of unwanted attention without turning it into something he could take offense to.
Granted there's bound to be some idiots who are dense enough they won't pick up on it or won't think that maybe it was a warning in their direction, but it could be worth a try.
I've usually been lucky in the male friends department to the effect that I had quite a few that were absolutely platonic who were plenty happy with just hanging out, but given that I just moved from one coast to the other and I'm starting fresh I'm being wary because I know I probably won't be quite as lucky to find friends that respect that kind of boundary quite so easy.