As a psychologist studying women taking pole dance classes this video on CNN.com reminds me of a curious and common perspective shared amongst adult recreational pole dance students - it's not about sex.
I began this project to study the pole dance class phenomenon. I wanted to understand what the possibilities and limitations of pole dancing classes as a path to empowered embodiment and transgressive sexual expression. I interviewed 25 between the ages of 24-56, women enrolled in a pole dance school with locations across the US. The school invites women to "tone your body, blow your mind!"
During my interviews with participants of the study many interesting themes emerged such as
· Awareness of Body as Process. Women speak of the class as providing a renewed sense of their body as a fluid process rather than a fixed object for observation and criticism.
· Self-Celebration through Other-Celebration. A key part of women’s experience is participating in the celebration of their fellow students as aesthetic, sensual beings. This affirmation of different kinds of women leads to the social construction within the class community of more aesthetic ideals that are more realistic and pluralistic than those in mainstream culture.
Most interestingly with regards to why a school might introduce pole dance into a Phys Ed. program...
· Cult(ure) of Denial. the tendency to disavow the notion that classes are associated with strippers or even with sexuality. This denial seems to be institutionalized within the culture of the classes and rhetoric that students internalize from the classes. It may be a defense against the taboo of participating in illicit, “dirty” activity.
There was also the tendency to reduce the pole to another piece of gym equipment or a child like playground structure. This participant, a mother of two young children shared with me, “I have a pole in my house, if you can climb up this pole you have great core strength. It’s not something I hide. It’s like mommy playing like you do one the jungle gym or whatever, and they get on it too.” Reframing the pole the as a tool of fitness, appropriate even for children, dilutes the contextual implications of the pole and any immediate relationship of the classes to the strip club.
The tendency for participants to distance the activity in the class from what is done in the strip club or sexuality in general doesn't allow for participants in the classes to confront the complexity of the activity they are engaging in. Good girls take pole dance classes because they are fun and (whoops!) sexy! "Dirty", bad girls strip. The categories that can be created between these two sub types, are not as clearly demarcated within the discussion of pole dance class students. Isn’t denying the "dirty" or subversive truncating the expression of a complex female sexuality?
The instructor in the video admits that seeing the activity might activate stereotypical gender roles but that once the athleticism involved is observed the stereotypes would be forgotten. If grown women can’t wrap their minds around this activity how are teenage girls and boys going to?
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If the students were to actually practice the pole dancing, would the boys be participating as well? Watching the video, some of the moves still seem pretty sexy, but I think having a male instructor (along with the female one) showing the moves, and then having both the male and female students practicing them, would help to make it less about sex. If this is something just female gym classes do, then I think it's absolutely disgusting, because it is suggesting that it is not actually athleticism, but just something girls should do to please men.
In my high school, the boys used to just do wrestling while the girls did gymnastics (I think they've changed it now, with both groups doing both activities) but at least everyone knew that there are guys who do gymnastics and there are girls who wrestle.
I think, for what ever reason (social, etc) there is the idea that men are suppose to be 'powerful' and women are suppose to be 'graceful', hence the split between wrestling and gymnasitics.
I think you also see that in gyms where a lot of the guys focus on getting big, or power-lifting, and and a lot of women focus more on cardio.
or are my eyes tricking me?
This isn't inherently bad - women are more prone to heart disease, so cardio benefits them health wise more than weight lifting does, in that respect.
I was at a bar/club with a guy friend - just two of us guys hanging around - and there was an area with a pole. Some of the girls looked like they were having fun and some of them didn't. The ones that were having fun didn't seem to care whether they were being noticed, so much as they just wanted to do it.
I felt sort of sorry for the ones who didn't seem to be enjoying it, because frankly I wanted to get up there and work the pole, and maybe - just maybe - be noticed in a good way.
Of course I didn't - as explained in a comment in the thread about the vegetarian being fired I was rather deeply in the closet until about a month ago - though of course now I'd do it. And for better or worse, I'd kind of like to look a little bit tarty in the process (which reminds me that I am rather upset about how few shoe stores there are with size 12 and 13 women's shoes in them).
Of course I can't explain exactly how females think (not even a female can do that), but I can explain how *I* think. The reason for me was that I wanted to engage in some sexual and gender self-expression and celebration. I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that female women want exactly the same thing.
In some regards, women are "permitted" more freedom to do that (which is nonsense of course, but them's the breaks). That for me is one of the great joys of cross-dressing, sticking it to the man, natch.
I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that female women want exactly the same thing.
Wrong. It is entirely unreasonable to extrapolate that women labeled female at birth want this. Imagine how you would feel about public sexual display if someone followed you around for the first twenty or so years of your life screaming in your face that you were supposed to love it intensely. You'd be a little burned out, right?
Let me clarify something. I should not have been so general; so let me re-state this:
"It is not unreasonable to expect that some women would prefer to do this; and nor is it unreasonable to expect that some women would not."
In a neutral environment where there is not such a heavy entanglement of sexual and gender roles, I think there would be a tendency towards convergence.
The bigger point is that if some people want to do it, they shouldn't be made to feel badly about it. Are we in agreement on that point?
We're in agreement on that point, but it really grates on my nerves that the new sexyfied feminism sets up the false dichotomy you just gave me wherein either pole-dancing is great or pole-dancers are bad.
I'm saying that pole-dancing is probably bad, but pole-dancers are just people who may or may not be bad.
And, really, if someone's pole-dancing habits are the result of latent classism, as I discuss below, I reserve the right to give them shit about it. Am I not allowed to criticize people who are acting out classist tendencies because it destroys womens' agency? What kind of feminism would that be?
I went to a club in town with some friends. The club had two poles set up on the dance floor, and since it was slow we were having fun jumping up and trying to swing around on it. It was fun, in a playground/horsing around sort of way. We weren't doing anything that could be interpreted as sexual, though. At least, not that we thought.
Once our male friend decided to try it out, the bouncer came running over and ripped him off. The bouncer yelled at him that it was only for women to use.
At that point it got really weird because the bouncer drove home the point that us women were on exhibition, that the pole was for others to watch, not for us to enjoy.
We all went to find another bar...
See! That's what I'm talking about.
I think it's insidious - objectification disguised as innocuous. The creeping hypersexualization of women for male viewing pleasure continues.
Part of me thinks that these women are reclaiming and reconceptualizing preconceived notions of sexuality and power.
Another part of me cannot help but think this is just another step in the mainstreaming of a porn culture in which objectification is repackaged as empowerment.
I find the instructor's comments very telling, though I wonder how many men who frequent strip clubs are there to admire the "athleticism" of the women.
I'll be the first to admit I'm an odd duck, but my second job (thank you George W. Bush) is delivering pizzas and I had an order over at a strip club recently.
I'd never been to a strip club before, because I perceived them as being sexist. Much to the chagrin of my college roommate, who has been trying to get me to go with him for almost a decade.
But last week I had to go in there to do my job and I caught a glimpse. And I have to admit, I really was very impressed with the gravity-defying gymnastics, in a "I wish I could do that" sort of way.
Also, I think that your view of strip clubs from the point of view of someone who delivers pizzas might be a bit skewed. As someone who worked in them, they're usually super ick, the most exploitative form of sex work in which you give the most of your power over to men, who take your money and grab you without your permission.
I'm serious about my critique of strip clubs. I maintain to this day that escorting is actually less degrading.
Really? For male attention? You realize 99.9999% of pole dance classes do not allow males in the building during lessons.
In fact, the one near where I work also blocks out the windows, and draws blinds across the window in the door during lessons.
Which is OBVIOUSLY because those women are on display for men, right?
While it's good to point out that the classes themselves are blocked out from outside viewing these classes don't exist in a vacuum. No matter how athletic it is it's still the same kind of pole dancing that developed in strip clubs for titillation.
While I think it’s ok for women to go to these classes if they want to try it and/or explore their sexuality I think it’s not something that should be in schools PE classes. Not only is it a weird message to be sending at a school level but school environments and peer groups add a whole new bag of problems for the girls (and boys) in that school
A lot of sports can be traced back to warfare and hunting. Look at track and field. Throwing instruments of death. You might as well say that running a marathon is celebrating the death of thousands of ancient warriors.
Now, instead of training to killing things, the emphasis of sports is developing confidence, sportsmanship, comradeship, self-discipline, enjoyment and yes, physical fitness.
Just because something has a messy history does not mean it we cannot separate the good from the bad.
Yes, but one could say that those sports are ways in which male violence is normalized in society.
You could say then that women shouldn't participate in sports because it would make them violent.
You could say that without sports there is no acceptable channel for male violence and if we cut funding for sports that the violent energy in every man is going to be expressed in ways that society does not accept. Males will be unable to think without sports, lacking an outlet for rage, and society will regress into a Hobbesian struggle for life.
You could say lots of thing.
Ah, yes, I could say many things. And perhaps some things I would like to say would be best left unsaid.
Regardless of what you think of it, it's still an incredibly good method of fitness.
I'm friendly with the instructor of the class near where I work. She's in her late 40's, and can support her body halfway up one of those poles, perpendicularly away from it, using only her legs.
That's an incredible amount of strength. I certainly couldn't do such a thing. So if you think it's only for exploring sexuality, or being on display, you're missing the point entirely.
While that certainly is true, I wonder why the company that holds pole dancing instruction in my city advertises that part of the instruction includes lap dance training and learning how to pole dance in high heels. Not to mention that they have a weight restriction for their classes (for the participants own safety, of course).
The weight restriction has nothing to do with sexuality, or beauty standards, or whatever you might think.
It's because the poles can only support so much weight.
Don't read more into something than is there. If you read their information, most studios will say what the poles are made of (brass, etc), and how much weight each particular type of metal pole can support.
As far as the lapdance, or heels? Yes, some women might want to get into it to add something new to their sex life. What of it? My point was that the purpose of the classes isn't solely to teach women to be strippers, or to enhance their appeal to men.
I knew someone would bring this up. Poles can be made to support any amount of weight. I have poles holding up the floor of my house. Where I work we have two inch diameter poles which can support over a thousand pounds.
I doubt the weight restrictions have anything to do with the weight capacity of the poles - if those things were installed sturdily enough to support the centrifugal force generated by a stripper vigorously pole dancing on them, they should be able to support a person up to 300 lbs.
[I'm a carpenter who installs furniture and store fixtures for a living, so this is part of my area of expertise]
The weight limit probably has a whole lot to do with White American/European beauty standards, which say that only skinny women are attractive.
There are certain African American and Latino-oriented strip clubs that have quite full figured women who perform at them - I haven't heard about any of them having accidents on the pole.
And if it is a question of the poles having to be made of brass, they can certainly be made with a stronger material such as iron or steel and fitted with seamless brass sleeves (we do this where I work).
The weight limit probably has a whole lot to do with White American/European beauty standards, which say that only skinny women are attractive.
Foolish.
Do YOU want to pay them for the extra materials to reinforce the poles, just for the occasional obese woman that wants to go to the classes?
It's not cost effective.
It's a thin metal pole, not the foundation of a house.
They also say no lotion, for the safety of the participants. Is that sexist too?
For the record, from my local studio:
# Weight Limits: (location removed) Studio Static - 600 lbs.
# Weight Limits: (location removed) Studio Spinner - 200 lbs.
# Weight Limits: (location removed) Static - 400 lbs.
# Weight Limits: (location removed) Static - 400 lbs.
So, what, by not supporting women over 400-600 pounds, they're saying "only thin women are attractive"?
Please.
Well, the club in my city has a 200 pound weight limit, which they stress ad nauseum in their advertising. Surely one could find a dancing pole that supports more than 200 pounds.
Oh, and do YOU want to tell a woman that she cannot partake of the benefits of pole dancing because she is too fat?
I hardly think it'd be necessary. If you weigh between 400-600 pounds, I highly doubt you'd have the ability to partake in such activities.
By 600 pounds, walking would be a challenge, and pole dancing basically impossible.
Well, the club in my city has a 200 pound weight limit, which they stress ad nauseum in their advertising. Surely one could find a dancing pole that supports more than 200 pounds.
It could very well be a spinner-type pole. Because of the mechanisms involved in those, 200 pounds is what you get.
I agree with you regarding the excessive weight. However, I know of two women who are over 200 pounds, very strong and muscular, for whom pole dancing (in my city's club, at least) would not be permitted.
The creeping hypersexualization of women for male viewing pleasure continues.
I think that there is a de-sexualization going on here. Do you think 20 years ago people would have accepted the idea that pole-dancing can be for exercise? Or as a display of athletic ability?
It even looks like there is pole dancing lessons cropping up for men...
http://www.masterjmoves.com/gpage1.html
I think it is hilarious the way they lay out the challenge "Can you handle the pole"
Maybe the folks who put on pole dancing classes TELL their women clients that pole dancing is not sexual.
But that doesn't in any way make pole dancing any less sexual or strip-club oriented.
But, then again, a generation ago, only strippers wore thong panties (and in fact thongs were invented specifically for strippers back in the late 1930's)- but now they are considered regular underwear...if anything, LESS sexual than regular panties because of the lack of panty lines.
I seem to have gotten a little sidetracked in this debate. I have no issue with women exploring and reclaiming elements of their sexuality and developing physical strength and personal confidence.
What I question is why many things which were once associated with objectification are being mainstreamed into a culture which seems to be increasingly pornographized and why it is that we are just supposed to accept this as natural.
I think the title of the original post says it all. "Pole dancing has nothing to do with sex." Then why does the author explore pole dancing "as the expression of a complex female sexuality?" To say that pole dancing has NOTHING to do with sexuality seems absurd to me. Many forms of dance contain sexual elements. What makes pole dancing the exception to this? Why is it that after consulting the websites of several companies that offer pole dancing classes, I find that it is marketed as a sexy dance and exercise regimen?
I'm confused. First you say that many participants in these classes don't view them as being about sex. Which participants? Everybody I ever met who took a pole-dancing class knew exactly what it was about. Maybe a pole-dancer who is being paid to come into a school will tone it down for the video you posted, but that seems like a very selective representation.
Pole dancing is not transgressive sexual expression. People have been doing it for a very long time and it has always been an expression of predatory hetero sexuality.
Schools aren't really offering the classes as non-sexual because they believe that they aren't sexual, but because they can get around people who have objections to sexual display in the gym by presenting them as non-sexual. It's about not getting sued or having drama at the gym while trying to push yet more porn culture onto people and has nothing to do with working around "taboos."
I'm aware that usually only women are allowed in the classes, but how does that not make it about sexual display? To my mind, only teaching pole-dancing to women just encourages the myth that women are the only ones who should be learning to engage in sexual display and that they will take their moves back home to show to their SOs, who, if male, will not themselves be pole-dancing.
Has it occurred to you that like burlesque, pole-dancing classes differentiate themselves from more traditional forms of pornographic training and expression because of a good girl/bad girl dichotomy but because of class factors? The women who can afford to go a gym and take these classes may just be trying not to think of themselves as being like the women who need the money. At least, there is a very obvious income/education gap between women who do burlesque/pole-dancing and women who do stripping. There's not as obvious a gap between their sexual expression outside of the aforementioned activities.
Do you think people in the class might be denying the sexuality of the activity specifically because they don't WANT to confront the "complexity" of what they're engaging in?
Why have you labeled stripping as a subversive activity the doing of which will enhance a woman's sexuality? Have you ever stripped? Are you aware that most strippers don't think of it this way?
Do you think men at the strip club no longer feel their sexism being "activated" when they notice that the women there are highly skilled an athletic?
Whoa, whoa, whoa. I don't think pole dancing in the sense that is being debating at the present can be lumped in the same category as the burlesque revival.
Burlesque is UNQUESTIONINGLY sexual. Burlesque is entirely about female sexuality. I am a burlesque dancer, and I would absolutely agree with anyone who objected to a burlesque performance for a group of 14 year olds.
I'd have to agree with the person who stated that this type of pole dancing is desexualized. Does it have sexist origins? Absolutely. Does it still have a small degree of sexuality in it? Possibly. However, so do a lot of dances and sports which we would all agree would be appropriate for all-ages viewing. Would we be having this conversation if the dance being performed was a salsa demonstration (which is obviously a VERY sexually charged dance)?
I'm reminded of the wedding custom of having a Best Man.
Look, the whole point of having a Best Man in the old old days was that you needed some strong dude to help abduct and carry-off your bride-to-be if she put up a fight. In other words, the Best Man was "your friend who was best suited to be an accessory to rape and kidnapping." If that isn't the height of predatory heterosexuality, I do not know what is.
Today, the Best Man is simply a title of honor bestowed upon the groom's brother or best friend. The ceremonial has largely outrun and replaced the sexual.
I agree with Vsolonas, wiccaman, Gregoryabutler et al on the point that much as we'd like to imagine pole dancing can exist in a vacuum, it most certainly does not. No one partakes in it without an awareness of its origins, or the fact that it's still an activity undertaken in strip clubs every day with the sole notion of providing visual sexual pleasure for men.
At a UK school, there was outcry when a pole dancing demonstration aimed at 14 year old students was included as part of a week to promote fitness. The organisers naturally defended by taking the line that 'pole fitness' and 'pole dancing' are completely different - I remain unconvinced.
If you're interested, I've discussed the story and included the link on my blog:
http://allthatchas.blogspot.com/2009/01/hand-face.html
And quite frankly, if my 14 year old son or daughter came home from school and told me a woman came and danced round a pole in gym class, I would be having a pretty serious discussion with the school board about this.
A few years ago, there was story in the paper about a public library (I can't remember where it was) that had a contest to "pimp out" the librarians' carts. Now, how do you explain to a child at the library what that phrase means and why it is inappropriate? That is my issue with pole dancing, the assimilation of a culture of objectification into everyday language.
And quite frankly, if my 14 year old son or daughter came home from school and told me a woman came and danced round a pole in gym class, I would be having a pretty serious discussion with the school board about this.
Of course, becuase you imagination would have gone wild with imagination. But would you after seeing the video? (well, you probably still would have).
I think I would have concern, seen the video, and after viewing the video the demonstration was appropriate.
If something can be sexualized, then it can also be de-sexualized.
Yes. Thank you for assuming what I would do with my imagining imagination.
If something can be desexualized, then it would be logical to say that it is fact sexualized.
But the video is completely sexualized. The woman performing is wearing nothing but a sports bra and short-shorts, then she goes on to do "upside down splits" which is basically her spreading eagle in front of a bunch of 14-year olds who are hopped up on hormones. I have a 16 year old brother, and I guarantee he would sit there and analyze the deeper issues of sexuality going on here. He'd be thinking "that toned half nude woman is hot". Which is exactly what was going on when all of the young boys video tapped it on their phone and watched it in class.
If I had to do something like this as a 14 year old, it wouldn't have been positive for me. It would have been awkward and embarrassing because of the sexual nature of it. This, for kids so young that, who haven't even experienced sex (or have had very limited sexual experience) or come to terms with their sexuality is a bit much.
I meant to say my brother would not be analyzing the deeper meaning of sexuality.
There are a lot of typos in my first post, try to look past them.
Believe me, a lot of my guy friends found Olympic pole vaulting to be very hawt.
Virtually anything involving the female form at work is going to turn men on in some form or fashion.
If something can be desexualized, then it would be logical to say that it is fact sexualized.
Lets try and break the tautological loop here.
Walking
primary function: to get the individual from one location to another.
sexualization A walker can walk in a manner that is sexualized. This can be accomplished in the technique of the walker, and also by the selection of clothes, shoes, and so forth. One can even develop ones physicality to improve the sexualization of the walk.
So, is walking sexualized all the time? Of course not. If someone is adept at walking in a sexy manner decides to not to, was walking always sexualized? No.
So, you can sexualize walking. Can walking be used for physical fitness? Yes it can.
When I went to school we had tether ball post. Sometimes kids would swing around the post. Were we over-sexualized children, or were we just enjoying the centrifugal force? When we tried to clime the post and the school staff stopped us, was it because we where sexual or becuase we could fall and crack our heads?
Is walking or tether ball something which has historically been associated with sexuality and objectification?
How about pole dancing?
Or is my imagination imagining things again?
By the way, I also recognize the tautology in saying that my "imagination would have gone wild with imagination."
In order to de- anything, does it not have to first possess the quality one is seeking to de-emphasize?
"In order to de-anything, does it not have to first possess the quality one is seeking to de-emphasize."
I don't think anyone is denying that YES, pole-dancing is TRADITIONALLY sexual.
There is nothing wrong with expressing your sexuality and there is nothing wrong with physical fitness. There is nothing wrong with combining the two.
Women who shame you, men who shame you, feminists who tell you they'll remove you from the movement are full of shit.
plain, simple.
move on women, move on!
Maybe I'm wrong, or over analyzing the situation, but I don't think there's anything wrong with adults participating in pole dancing classes. I think the argument becomes more complicated when we're involving whether or not it's okay to bring pole dancing into a PE class full of 14 year olds who have not yet had the chance to completely come in to there sexuality both physically and mentally. Because of the sexual connotations of pole dancing I don't think it's appropriate or necessary on a high school campus.
Whether or not the intention of pole dancing is to de-emphasize sex I don't think that kids are the right people to market the idea to. Pole dancing is still considered sexual in our society and the moves the woman does in this video are sexy. I think our society does enough to over sexualize kids and this, to me, is absurd.
Now, if adults want to go spend their Saturday afternoons in a pole dancing class, I don't care. That's fine. Marketing and involving 14 year old kids, another story.
iMuse-
What I'm trying to get at is that sexual display is only an expression of sexuality for some people. Others like to express our sexuality privately. Still others like to express our sexuality publicly but find things like stripping degrading because their "audience" is not getting up and participating with them. I'm confused as to why you immediately equate pole-dancing with "expressing sexuality" when it isn't that for so many people.
What I'm trying to point out is that, and this is especially true for women, we are constantly having public displays of sexuality foisted on us and told that we must enjoy performing sexually for others no matter what. I tend to think that the whole "sex-positive" movement, for example, crosses a line between telling women that public sexuality is okay and applying enormous social pressure to them to always display. In fact, it's my general impression that this movement crossed that line ten years ago and has not stopped racing 60mph away from it.
I'm a bit confused as to why you think that anybody even said that there was something wrong with expressing your sexuality in the first place. I didn't even say that I felt that pole-dancers, strippers, etc were doing anything wrong. It seems like you're really putting words in the mouth of everybody on this thread when you talk about how anybody who doesn't leap with joy at the mention of pornographic performance must be trying to "remove you from the movement."
Any and all criticism of public heteronormative sexual performance should not be interpreted as an attack on the people who sometimes do them. This attitude really frustrates me because I inevitably get it every time I try to say anything even remotely critical of some forms of heterosexual performance.
Could you please provide some examples of feminists who were trying to "remove pole-dancers from the movement" so as to assure me that you're not just conflating my mild criticism of an action with hatred for the people doing it, and maybe to prove that you're not just engaging in pointless radical-baiting?
You do realize that even the most rabid anti-sex-industry feminists are often former pole-dancers themselves, right?
...bunch of 14-year olds who are hopped up on hormones.>
You make it sound like these kids are incapacitated with erections and teenage boys shouldn' be able to:
-Look at art: "Haha, you can see David's dick", "Check out the rack on Venus"-Play chess: "Don't all the pieces look like litte dicks. Especially the pawns?"
-Eat fruit: "Check out these melons"
-Eat pancakes: "You can totally fold them in half and use it to masterbate"
-Play team sports: "We need to penetrate their defenses"
Give the little dudes some credit.
On another note...
I wonder how much seeing this as sexualized this is self-fulfilling prophecy.
I watched the video twice, first when this was posted, and then the next day. The first time I watched it I saw a few things that looked sexualized, the second time I the that looked sexualized seemed less so, if not at all.
The main one being where the presenter was doing a reverse push up (I would tell you the time mark but the link appears to be dead) The first time I thought that was intentionally sexualized, the second time I was thinking "That must burn like &^%& in her arms."
The first time I saw it, I was expecting to see something overtly sexual. I didn't really see it, when I watched it again, I had to force myself to see where someone could think her presentation was sexual.
And finally:
This happened in UK, right? I thought they were, as a whole, a little less uptight about sex. If that is true, is getting up-set about that similar to strict Muslims getting upset that around the world women don't cover their hair?
Now who is being tautological?
How do you imagine pancakes would be used for masturbation?
Now who is being tautological?
I was going for sarcasm, that is the risk you take.
How do you imagine pancakes would be used for masturbation?
Warm (not hot), light, fluffy, and folded in half. Some butter or syrup (would maple be a waste, or a luxury?) to reduce friction.
Consume afterward under your own discretion.
I am open to ideas here, absolutely no pride of authorship here.
Oh, sarcasm. We don't have that where I come from.
I see I am not the only one whose imagination seems to be working overtime.
I'm glad Steven that you cannot find anything sexual with the video, and yet you somehow are able to make pancakes sexual...?
And I'm sure that all of those teenage boys who filmed the half naked girl in short shorts and sports bra had nothing to do her sexy poses where she spreads her legs and thrusts her butt out or raging hormones and everything to do with the fact that they wanted to "admire her athleticism".
I never said that kids are incapacitated and shouldn't look at art or play chess. This argument isn't completely black and white. You're comparing apples and oranges There are different levels of sexuality and different connotations that each of these items have. The pole is associated with stripping by in large. You're making it seem like because I associated pole dancing with stripping, from which is originated, that I'm going to look for the sexually offensive nature in everything, which isn't true.
If you want and think it's fine for your 14 year old daughter to participate in a pole dancing class, half nude, in front of her male peers I can't really argue with you. But from my experience in high school, I imagine it would be more traumatizing and embarrassing than self-esteem building because pole dancing inherently sexual, which is what I think sports should do.
Finally, just because a society is more open about sex doesn't make it better or more enlightened or immune from criticism.
I hope you find some sexual innuendos in my post.
I'm glad Steven that you cannot find anything sexual with the video, and yet you somehow are able to make pancakes sexual...?
I tried to get at this elsewhere... if you are looking for sexual behavior you are going to find it, even when the people 'exhibiting' the behavior have no idea they are even 'projecting' it.
Also I am trying to get at the idea that if something 'neutral' can be sexualized, then it can be de-sexualized. And I think the overall trend with pole-dancing is it is becoming desexualized.
And pole dancing was taking a pole and using it for sexual dance. If you take a pole and use it for athletic conditioning then you have sexuality the use of the pole.
But the woman in this video is still participating in sexual dances which can be seen is the video, as seen in the part where she trusts her back side out.
I'm not trying to get into a philosophical conversation about sexuality. I'm trying to point out that in a society where children and teenagers are often overly sexualized is this really something we should encourage 14 year olds to participate in? Why not rock climbing or baseball or ballet or football? It just seems like we've gone to far....Would you really be comfortable with your 14 year old (not your 18 or 25 year old) daughter being half naked, spread eagle in front of male peers and adult teachers?
Considering how kids acted at my high school (I graduated 2005) something like pole dancing would have really encouraged harassment, specifically sexual harassment for girls, because whether or not the trend is for pole dancing to be less sexualized it is still associated with strippers, and until pole dancing and strippers are unassociated I think this could do more harm than good in a high school setting.
The question isn't 'is it proper to force a insecure 14 year old boy or girl onto a stage and coerce them into dancing until they break down and cry'.
I wouldn't force my child to be a cheerleader and be thrown into the air. I would not force them into a form fitting bodysuit and make them perform gymnastics (which is another activity where sometimes the athletes but sticks out when they strike a pose).
But if my kid said they wanted to be a cheerleader, or they wanted to be a gymnast, or they wanted to take a reputable pole-based exercise class I would probably say sure.
Just like if they wanted to take martial arts or go to a summer camp or whatever else, if it is a responsible, well run operation, why not?
Like someone pointed out, you can learn salsa (very sexy dancing) or you can learn to tap (not so much). Just becuase they learn how to exercise with a pole does not mean they are doomed and going to hell.
Here is the problem that I have with the whole "pole dancing is fun!" thing.
For the most part, the media that keeps coming out about women pole-dancing for fun and exercise is about white, middle/upper class women. That's it.
There are still a lot of women who pole-dance for money. They do it because you can make a lot more money as a stripper than as a waitress, and often there are not a lot of jobs open for those who lack college degrees or previous experience at a high level. These women may tell you that they do or do not love their jobs, but they would not tell you that pole-dancing is an "art" and exists in a vacuum and has nothing to do with sex. The point is to titillate men so that they will pay you, since your income is often entirely in tips (often, you even have to pay to rent the stage!).
Exactly, thanks!
I really think this is a class thing more than anything. It's a practice in glamorization of a job that, regardless of how the participants feel about it, opens them up to enormous amounts of abuse in a world that doesn't fully value their humanity or offer them a lot of options.
It's like when rich adolescent white males try to imitate drug-dealers for some sort of perceived social credit and "transgression," but never take the time to realize that your typical drug dealer didn't choose his job from many other options, may or may not enjoy it, and suffers from enormous amounts of interpersonal violence.
You could argue that they also do it so that they can create a distorted experience of the activity which they can view as "fun," project the experience onto those engaging in "realer" versions, and then stop feeling guilty about their relative privilege since they have convinced themselves that others don't really have it that bad.
I realize it's an imperfect metaphor. Drug dealers hurt people for a living, while strippers don't. To be fair, our culture's constructions of masculinity mean that it's hard to come up with an alternative, "easy-money" job path open to lower socioeconomic status men that doesn't involve hurting people for a living.
However, I think that these two things (rich kids trying to be 'hood and pole-dancing classes for white middle-class people) are pieces of exactly the same phenomenon. I really do.
I agree. To me, your metaphor illustrates the mainstreaming of a culture of exploitation and objectification which are, in fact, forms of violence.
Someone commented that pole dancing does not exist in a vacuum. It is part of an ever increasing tendency to pornographize society for the sake of making a buck, as well as for perpetuating stereotypes and inequality. Many people seem upset over sexism in advertising; few seem upset over the increasing eroticization of society. Yet both are one and the same.
You speak of the sex-positive movement. I question whether this movement is not on some level directed by a desire to dispel the stereotype of feminists as frigid man-haters, whether it is not on some level catering to the demands of a male defined sexuality. Are there sex-negative feminists?
I imagine spinning on a pole would be enjoyable in a given context. I have twice been to strip clubs and I cannot say that I enjoyed myself; nor can I say that the performers seemed to be enjoying themselves. Perhaps pole dancing can be reinterpreted as recreation for those priveleged enough to be able to enjoy it. Perhaps too, at some point people will say enough with the mainstreaming of a porn culture.
The funny thing about those rich white kids... Sometimes they are drug dealers. Sometimes they are caught up in the hustle. Sometimes they do time time for possession and drug related assaults and all that stuff.
Of course, they are always posers out there, but I am beginning to think that the posers are not as many as I use to.
Steven, I'm not saying that they aren't drug dealers on occasion. I'm saying that they tend to deal way fewer drugs to way fewer people at way less risk if they do it at all because they're into the social cache of transgression, not the actual drug-dealing experience.
Hood dealers, who have little choice about their profession, usually either go to jail for a very long time or get killed. If you think the odds are very high that any of these dabblers are going to suffer consequences on that level, you need to have your head examined. I went to school with these kids- they just get rehab and degrees.
Shula, is there any way for me to get in contact with you? I'm a sociology grad student who has been kicking this idea around with a friend, and I'd love to hear more about your work.
Email me at shula.melamed@gmail.com
looking forward to chatting..
*S
I used to be a stripper, and I think that pole-dancing can have very little or very much to do with sex. Its all about the context/situation of the person pole-dancing.
Anyone can turn anything into a sex object. A girl can climb on top of a table and seductively take her clothes off, obviously sexual. While we mostly use tables to eat or do activites on, not sexual (usually).
I think that these pole-dancing classes can be very positive. These females really are getting exercise, and men are not paying them money to oogle them.
But if there is a pole at a night club, and a female decides to put on a sexual "show" for other (random) men to watch..then this is sexual and obviously distasteful.
A pole is the ultimate tool of degradation at a strip club, which gives it its negative connotation.
But I think if a women wants to turn on her man (in which she is involved in a monogamous respectful relationship with)..then that of course is no problem.
I dont think pole dancing should be taught in schools, cant they just stick to volley ball? Actual sports? lol
Hi Shula,
I thoroughly enjoyed reading your article. As the subject within the video I am still amazed at the debate my performance caused.
I would love to feature your article on the http://www.poledancecommunity.co.uk website but need your permission.
Also please feel free to contact me if I can be of any assistance with your studies.
Sam Remmer
sam@theartofdance.co.uk
Hi Shula,
I was very interested to read your article which I just found (sorry, rather late). It is also interesting that pole is increasingly a subject for academic and/or heated debate, as evidenced by your article and the comments.
I have written a book about some of these issues which is currently in press with Palgrave Macmillan. It is out March 2010 and is called 'Pole Dancing, Empowerment & Embodiment' and focuses on pole classes. I interviewed (between 2005 and 2008) 37 pole students and instructors in the UK, Sydney and NY; and also had an online questionnaire with 135 responses.
If you are still investigating pole dancing I would be happy to chat about it.
Best wishes,
Samantha Holland
s.holland@leedsmet.ac.uk
www.samanthaholland.com