This hit me just the other day. I’ve always rejected the notion that women should enjoy catcalls, that it’s a healthy boost of self-esteem, that it isn’t a “real” problem. What exactly is the qualitative difference between a honk or a rude gesture and a genuine compliment? I could never really put my finger on it because I’m usually awkward at accepting unwarranted praise in the first place and thus, couldn’t remember any good examples.
I was shopping at my local Albertson’s and bagging some fruit at the self-checkout line when the answer appeared before me. A familiar male employee (who never fails to smile and say hello) looked my way and gave a little twist on his daily greeting, “Wow. You look fabulous today.” It wasn’t creepy or malignant and so I thanked him for his kind words. It was early in the morning and I can’t remember what I was wearing, but it’s winter here in Dallas so it was probably a lot of layers.
The first thing that came to mind was that I more or less know this guy. He’s there to help me when the screen goes crazy and won’t let me scan another item until I move my hand away from the bagging area. He has never made me feel uncomfortable; he never hits on me or leers. And so, must a truly positive compliment experience have to include someone you have met before? Someone who you’ve had conversations with before, who is less than a friend but more than a stranger. Also, he was stationary, standing at his podium waiting for a “help” light to blink on. Was it a compliment because he wasn’t driving or walking past me? Is this, coupled with his conversational tone, why it didn’t have the feel of a threatening catcall?
These things are important, but I feel that there is more to the root of why I perceived this as a positive experience. He did not call me a pet name, which did not take me out of my humanity by grouping me into some ridiculous female category of “sweeties” and “honies”. Essentially, he gave me a compliment on my attire, not the way my body looked in it. Any woman could do the same without me thinking twice about it.
Finally, this event was starkly contrasted with the innumerable times I have ridden my bike in the city only to have several men ask, “Can I have a ride?” as if they were all the most original cat callers on the face of the earth.
What about you all out there in the community? Give me two of your own stories: a catcall and a compliment.
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Yeah, the bicycle thing isn't too original. I have a story that I can't quite classify as either a compliment or a catcall. I was 15, traveling by myself in Ireland, and boarding a bus in Dublin. I got on the bus, and an older man (with a tam o shanter, no less) got on the bus at the next stop. I moved past him to get off the bus, and he looked at me, held his hands to his chest and exclaimed (pretty loudly) "Statuesque!"
I guess that's a...catcall? I thought it was funny, if odd, mostly because of the word used.
The best compliment I've gotten was from a little boy. I was dressed as a witch for a halloween party for kids in West Philly, and he came up to me, looked at my hat, and asked me if I was a witch. I said yes, and he said, "Don't be sad, you look pretty anyway" and took my hand.
It helped that he was four or five.
This is exactly what I've tried to explain to my male friends in a much more articulate way.
I can't think of the worst catcall I've experienced. But, they usually consist of a leering look which makes me feel like I wish I could disappear.
The best compliment I've received is probably from my boyfriend when he tells me I'm beautiful when I'm dressed in sweatpants with no make up.
For me, it usually depends on how it makes me feel. As in, does it make me feel threatened? Also, would I feel comfortable saying the same thing to somebody else?
I often compliment strangers (men and women) on their appearance, in a tasteful manner of course, so if would I feel comfortable saying it, then I'll probably feel comfortable having it said to me.
Harassment can be a tricky thing to define because it's so subjective, and of course it depends on who is giving the compliment. If my best friend says my boobs look good in a particular top, that's a compliment. If it's a stranger, not so much.
I feel as though it's the intent behind it. If someone just feels you look nice and wants to let you know, it's a compliment. If a guy feels he has a right to say whatever he wants about whatever part of your body he feels is the most important, it's a catcall.
It's hard to tell when someone just wants to compliment you, especially a stranger, but as the sexual harassment rule goes "What matters is the message received, not the message intended." Like all communication.
I think the difference between a catcall and a compliment is whether something is expected in return. When you know someone is telling you that you look fabulous and they aren't hoping you will behave in some sexual way for them, that is a genuine compliment. But when someone is leering, or a stranger has a tone of voice that suggests they want to do things to you, then it feels like they would like really want you to perform for them. That is a catcall.
A stranger in an elevator who says you look nice in that sweater and then turns away and starts talking to someone else feels more like a compliment, since they dont' continue trying to make conversation which could lead to them asking for a date or something like that.
That is my take on it.
I can never get a clear answer on this.
So asking a woman for a date is bad, then?
Frankly, if you're asking this question, then yes. Yes, you should not ask women for dates, because you are a self-important asshole who feels entitled.
NB: Anyone else reading should feel free to disregard this advice.
Seconded. If that's all you're getting out of this post, you're beyond help so do us all a favour and don't ask women for dates, okay? Not on elevators, not on escalators, not in the supermarket, not on public transport, not while driving past, and no, not even in dark, deserted streets.
Frankly, if you're asking this question, then yes. Yes, you should not ask women for dates, because you are a self-important asshole who feels entitled.
First off:
Get over yourself. The only one acting self-important would be you.
You know, by assuming that obviously, if there's a male, he is SO absorbed in the idea of asking women out on dates.
No.
I don't. I have no interest, sorry.
To the second poster, again, get over yourself.
I only ask, because it seems feminists (on this site, no less), can't seem to draw a clear distinction on if it's appropriate, or not.
In the same day here, there was one post saying it was perfectly okay, another (this one) pretty much saying that it isn't.
Just trying to get a clear perspective on the feminist opinion of it.
I get that from this post, because I care very little for the difference between a catcall and a compliment, because no matter what the intent, the person hearing it is going to define it in their own way, no matter what.
I would not doubt that there is someone that will take "Those are some really stylish shoes, where did you buy them?" as harassment.
Frankly, still insulted at the assumption that all men just want to go around asking you out.
Again, for the record, I personally do not. Ever. I'll wait for one to call up the gut to do it herself. Unlikely, though, as I don't see anyone jumping in line to switch up that particular power dynamic. Becoming the supplicant is a loss of power, and one I don't see getting embraced any time soon by women in general.
But that's a discussion for another day. I just get highly irritated at the idea that you seem to think that that's all men want from you, and you perpetuating the stereotype of such.
People can't draw a firm distinction because human communication is very nuanced and nebulous. Two guys could say the exact same thing, and come off completely different.
Actually, I'm one of those fat, hairy feminists. This scenario of being asked out on an elevator has never happened to me personally.
Remember, you're coming onto a feminist site. Do you think that you haven't been preceeded by a million whining MRA trolls bitching to us about how women never give them a chance and how they're such nice guys?
If you really truly consider women human beings and you approach interactions with them as interactions with human beings, these are not difficult questions. Yes, it is okay to ask women out on dates. Presumably, since you consider them human beings and not sexual objects, in this hypothetical scenario, you have had some contact with them besides walking into an elevator with them. In other words, some reason to communicate with them besides their tits. And of course you would use non-threatening body language and tone, conveying a "I'm interested in getting to know you" rather than "Nice shoes. Wanna fuck?"
Remember, you're coming onto a feminist site. Do you think that you haven't been preceeded by a million whining MRA trolls bitching to us about how women never give them a chance and how they're such nice guys?
Yawn.
Again, you really need to get over yourself.
Where did I say that? Oh, I didn't. Not in one place. Don't put words in my mouth.
There's something incredibly rude about claiming someone said something, and then getting angry at them for it, when you're the one inventing their statements, rather than read their actual statements.
And of course you would use non-threatening body language and tone, conveying a "I'm interested in getting to know you" rather than "Nice shoes. Wanna fuck?"
In general, men are far less reliant on "body language" and non-verbal communication.
I speak in direct statements, not hints and mysterious body language. I let my words convey my intent, not the way I'm standing, or what gestures I make with my hands.
You seem to fail to understand that communication involves at least two people, all but one of whom -- bear with me now, this may come as a shock -- are not you. They may interpret your "direct statements" as threatening or aggressive. This is not their problem. This is your problem, because you are trying to communicate with them and the onus is on you to get your message across.
Just chiming in... but only a very small portion of humna communication is the 'direct statements'. There's a shit ton of meaning in intonation, inflection, stance, posture, body language. As much as you say you don't speak with your body or read body language, its an unconscious part of ALL human communication.
There's a shit ton of meaning in intonation, inflection, stance, posture, body language. As much as you say you don't speak with your body or read body language, its an unconscious part of ALL human communication.
To you, maybe.
That's rather the problem, though, isn't it? Someone might be giving the message exactly as they wish to, via words, and you're reading all these extra "signals" from it that aren't even there.
Aiaiai...
UntouchableFace, you're steering this in the direction of "women hear what they want to hear" which is a step away from "women and men use different languages" and bleeds into "how the hell are men supposed to know what women want anyway" and we all know where THAT goes.
Everyone uses and understands body language, you included. If you say "You look lovely today. Would you like to have lunch?" in a cramped elevator, leaning over a woman, with your face inches away from hers, in a low whisper with a big grin, then I think you'll agree that that would be harassing her. It doesn't matter what words you use if you're in the wrong forum for using them.
Everyone uses and understands body language, you included.
Nope. If someone says something, I take the words they say to be their intent. As I've heard from people, apparently it's resulted in frustration on the part of others, because I'm not hearing her "hidden message".
I don't speak in codes. I speak in words. That's why we have language, as humans. To communicate. If you don't use my language to communicate, don't try to communicate with me. I don't use symbols and pheromones or whatever else.
You might argue that there is simply no difference whatsoever in the way men and women communicate, but I can round up about 30 women and 30 men from my circle of people that would heartily disagree with you.
Whether it's nature or nurture is another thing, but the point is, for a great many of us, we DO communicate differently, and place more emphasis/importance on different things. As we've proven here, you, as a female, apparently place a great deal of importance on "signals" and "hidden messages" instead of the actual message being conveyed. I don't. That right there is a difference.
It doesn't matter what words you use if you're in the wrong forum for using them.
I can use whatever words I like, in whatever forum I please. If you want to take what I say incorrectly, because you're seeing special "signals" that you assume/believe/imagine I'm using, that's your failing, not mine.
Spoke/written language is wonderful, and I tend to feel that it's all I need to communicate with other people. I don't read their "body language", "subtle hints" or "signals".
I speak English and Japanese. I do not speak "body", or "scent", or "way so and so is standing".
Except you do. It is part of human communication. We pick up on the subtle gestures, facial expressions, and intonations. There is no control over it. Every time you speak, you are giving off body language signals. *Every time*. And every time you see someone speak to you, you are unconsciously reading those body signals. Unless all of your conversations are text based, there is no way you are not communicating in these signals. Go Google human non-verbal communication. It's not a gendered behavior, and it is certainly not a behavior you *decide* to participate in.
Except you do. It is part of human communication. We pick up on the subtle gestures, facial expressions, and intonations. There is no control over it.
No, I don't. As an experiment, I once went out with a friend of mine, just on a daily run of my routines, and at the end of every situation where I'd encounter or deal with another human, she and I would compare notes on this sort of thing.
Either I do not in any way notice any "body language", or, when forced to guess, just make something up.
My friend points out "She was flirting with you, it was all in her posture, the way she held her eyes, blah blah blah". I say that not only did I not notice that, but I thought she was a bit rude.
That's just one example of many. I do not speak fake mystery language. I'm sorry, you're going to have to accept being wrong here.
Every time you speak, you are giving off body language signals. *Every time*.
Nope. Often, (and this may sound silly), I have to mentally remind myself to use facial expressions. Because I know people like and/or expect them. But very often, I simply am not using any. Arms at my sides, or in the middle of whatever it was they were doing, face expressionless, words come out. No gesturing, no set of posture other than the way I was already standing.
This is how I am.
Go Google human non-verbal communication. It's not a gendered behavior, and it is certainly not a behavior you *decide* to participate in.
Again, I'm afraid you're going to have to accept being wrong.
All the women I know say they have trouble getting the males they know to pick up on non-verbal signals. Like I said, whether it be nature or nurture is another discussion, but for the most part, all the males I know are much more interested in direct communication.
Do you really think all that "I don't understand women" talk came out of nowhere? Or some secret plan to alienate women? Or from years of women and men having different ways of saying the same thing?
There's no harm, and no sexism in us being different, you know. Equal rights is one thing, exactly the same is another, and that other is boring.
Men don't have to be aware of non verbal communication by women because we are the dominant (and, dare I say it, oppressor) gender.
Women have to worry about being raped or beaten (or, in extreme cases, kidnapped or killed) by men - men do not have the same worries about women.
So, you're right, you don't have to worry about women's non verbal communication with you - and neither do I and neither do other men.
And that, my friend, is a PRIVILEGE.
A privilege that women do not have.
Just chiming in... but only a very small portion of humna communication is the 'direct statements'. There's a shit ton of meaning in intonation, inflection, stance, posture, body language. As much as you say you don't speak with your body or read body language, its an unconscious part of ALL human communication.
You misunderstand me. I certainly don't think men all want to date me, or that if someone's male, he must be whatever. No such assumption was made.
What I did assume - when a detailed explanation and hypothetical example of un/acceptable behaviour was posted and you simply responded, "I can never get a clear answer on this. So asking a woman for a date is bad, then?" - was that you were one of the trolls who pop up on seemingly every sexual harassment thread to insensitively complain, in a discussion involving sexual harassment as part of women's lives, about their (the troll's) experience in the dating scene. I still think you are here in bad faith, given your insistence here and elsewhere that feminists don't address sexist dating norms when that's so ridiculously untrue and easy to refute you would already know if you were at all genuinely interested in finding out.
I was actually referring to both sexual harassment I've experienced and the fact that it's such a common experience for women. I was also expressing frustration that you don't seem willing to listen. You say you want to clarify the feminist position but you come off as though you're only interested in validating your own preconceived notions. Like when the presence and importance of nonverbal communication is pointed out, you flat out deny you communicate nonverbally. Have you ever smiled? Are you tenser when agitated? Do you ever point, shrug, wave?
If your confusion of asking people out with harassment is so bad you really thought I was referring to dating ("while driving past"?), that's a problem, even if you don't in fact ask women out. So I’ll indulge you and give you a tip: The places I listed are where the people there are trying to get some task done and would rather not be approached by strangers, even if it's done in a clearly non-threatening way. They're also places you can't avoid and can't escape from (even an escalator can be packed). Why approach a woman sexually in such a place?
For women who've experienced sexual violence or just the threat, it can be very frightening. There’s no way for to know whether the situation with a strange man will escalate if he shows signs he doesn’t respect boundaries (which is harassing). In the elevator, the man who compliments the woman's sweater and returns to another conversation has made it clear that he was innocently complimenting her, while any advances made by the man who tries to engage her in conversation would likely not be welcome. He could have innocent intentions, but it's an inappropriate place, for reasons mentioned above. And what if he doesn't? What if he leers, gets in her personal space, makes a sexual comment? She’s stuck there.
And what is the right way you should approach someone? There's no simple answer, and "no matter what the intent, the person hearing it is going to define it in their own way, no matter what" is a simple answer. Communication is very complex and nuanced. Nonverbal communication matters at least as much as verbal. There are boundaries to be respected, but these can change (such as becoming more important in a tight space). You can only use your common sense and judgement. What's right depends on each situation. And hopefully it's clear that situational context is something to consider.
What I did assume - when a detailed explanation and hypothetical example of un/acceptable behaviour was posted and you simply responded, "I can never get a clear answer on this. So asking a woman for a date is bad, then?"
If you had noticed, I was replying to the commenter who said it in the first place. Placing "ask out" in the decidedly "always bad" category.
given your insistence here and elsewhere that feminists don't address sexist dating norms when that's so ridiculously untrue and easy to refute you would already know if you were at all genuinely interested in finding out.
It's more that they address sexist dating norms that negatively affect women, and not much else. It makes it appear that you're only interested in changing things for your own personal benefit, and not the so-called "benefit of everyone" as is often thrown in, last minute.
Like when the presence and importance of nonverbal communication is pointed out, you flat out deny you communicate nonverbally. Have you ever smiled? Are you tenser when agitated? Do you ever point, shrug, wave?
Well, see, that'd be others wanting to validate THEIR preconceived notions, as well.
Like I said in my earlier comment, I often have to mentally remind myself to put on a fake facial expression, because people like them. I don't use them unless I think to do so.
I don't wave, because, honestly, who would I wave at? If I want to indicate the position of something, I simply say where it is, rather than point at it.
Communication is very complex and nuanced. Nonverbal communication matters at least as much as verbal.
Perhaps to you. I take people at their words, and that's about it.
i'd add to that the requirement that the communication isn't intended as a display of power or masculinity or intended to just piss you off. lots of guys who yell shit out of car windows at me when i'm walking on the street or whistle or honk or whatever aren't expecting me to respond sexually to them at all i'm sure, but they're exerting their power to make me uncomfortable and that's what makes it clearly not a compliment.
Worse - actually, when a man in a group catcalls at a woman, it has nothing to do with her, and everything to do with the other men.
He is trying to assert dominance, raise his standing in the pecking order of that group of men and prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he IS NOT GAY by making a sexualized comment at a random female passerby.
The men in that scenario really do see the woman as an object upon which they can use as a prop to validate their masculinity.
This is an interesting topic! I do hear that a lot from men- that a catcall is a compliment, or that it's hard for men because they don't know what will be taken as harassment. Or even better, that "it's only sexual harassment when the man is unattractive" (said dismissively, in a way that implies all women like being harassed and it's really the beta males who are losing out here). That one really bothers me because- well, YES, I do appreciate and like certain behaviors from say, my boyfriend that I would call harassment from a random man on the street, and don't I have the right to make that distinction? I don't think they've thought about their statements critically, but it really does show that they think all men should have access to women all the time.
Anyway, there is one story that I always tell when confronted with the question "Well, how am I supposed to interact with women in public then?" (since for some reason these guys always think that women who speak out against harassment want to end all public interaction between the sexes). When I was about 16, I was out at a local bakery with a guy friend, and one of the guys working behind the counter came up to us and said something like "Hi, I'm sorry to bother you, I just wanted to let you know that you're really gorgeous." He asked if I was a model, and said some other cheesy stuff that I don't remember, but I was genuinely flattered. He was in his 40's and wearing a bakery uniform, lol, so the "you just like it when he's attractive" argument goes out the window. (And contrary to your experience, I'd never met the guy before.)
To contrast, at around that time in my life I walked around a lot and got honked or yelled at by drivers who would then speed away. I've also had people across the street shout at me "Hey, are you mixed?" with no intention of hearing my answer. So to me, the main difference is dialogue. If the person gives me a chance to respond, I feel that they gave the compliment because they wanted to brighten my day or let me know that they think I look nice or whatever. If they yell something and then speed away, I'm left feeling frustrated and angry, and while I don't claim to know what goes through guys' heads when they do such a thing, I'm pretty sure they weren't interested in boosting my self-esteem. (Also, if you feel the need to make a quick getaway after a comment, chances are you know that what you're saying isn't nice.)
This is kind of contrary to what the person above me said, but it's the same logic, IMO. The person who speeds off doesn't care how their comment affects you; whatever the intent is, it was done mainly for them. The person who stays to chat (whether they eventually ask for your number or not) is at least aware that you're a human being.
Yeah, I get the "Hey, are you mixed?" Or "Who's white, your mom or your dad?" Yes, and Neither, respectively. I don't give strait answers usually. One, I'm a smart ass and two, it doesn't fucking matter.
It's strange that people always ask me this before they ask me anything else, even my name. Even people I've known for a while will eventually build up the courage to ask. Maybe a subject for another post called: instant race identification calling? The purpose, usually, is so they can know how to respond to me, a mutt and a big confusing spoke in the mental construct of the traditional race binary.
I wish I knew what went through guys' heads, too.
When I was in Rome, my friend and I were sitting on the Spanish Steps, eating gelato. These two guys came over and started telling us, randomly, how beautiful we were, etc. But we had to go meet another friend for dinner.
When we got up to walk away (and this is the kicker), they yelled out, "Come on baby, light my fire!"
Great pickup line, or GREATEST pick up line? /sarcasm.
I think that this article at Jezebel is relevant to this conversation: When The Nice Guy Down The Street Makes You Uncomfortable.
It doesn't really answer your question. I guess it is asking the same question you're asking, only in a different way. I found it to be a very interesting personal take on what it's like to be a woman and receive a compliment from a stranger.
For me a genuine compliment is generally from someone I know in some way. If I don't know the person I would have to be about a thing I'm wearing or about me as a person or about a behavior - "You're so kind." Compliments are given freely no strings attached.
Anything from someone I don't know has, in my experience, always been about my body in some way. I've got sort of comicbook proportions (36DD) so they generally are in that vein. Guys that come up to me to tell me I've got big tits generally get back "I know you idiot I GREW THEM!" One guy came up to me in a club once and said "I see you wore your waterwings tonight." I think he thought he was being funny. What was funny was the look on his face when I came back (yelled in his face)with "Are you an idiot? What was your purpose in saying that? Did you think I would go Oooh you're so funny let me spread my legs?" For me most of the time there is some sort of aggressive overtone.
This guy idea that we should be oh so grateful for a "compliment" rests with the belief that women must seek their validation from outside themselves and through their bodies. Which is crap. When I was younger (now that I'm middle aged and heavier it doesn't seem I need "compliments') these "compliments" definately contributed to my dis-like and dis-trust of men. It is also, let's call a spade a spade, about dominance - I can comment about you because you are less than me.
My favorite catcall moment though is when a guy who was so busy screaming lewd things at me from his car drove right into the back of a police cruiser. I stopped in the street and laughed at him.
My favorite compliment - the e-mail I got from Sasha (9) who told me that I'm "soooooooooooooo beautiful".
Catcalls differ from compliments because they are meant to make women uncomfortable on some level. Men know this, and this is one purpose for shouting them.
I agree with homebird. It's about dominance. Absolutely. If it was just a benign compliment, like the ones Crashhooligan gives out, then it's a compliment because there's no negative intent, no sense of asserting yourself over that person, etc. etc.
Catcalls are completely different, though they may not look it to those not on the receiving end. Catcalls entail a man usually saying something lewd or lascivious (though it could be a neutral comment said in a non neutral manner) to a woman that they have selected because:
a) she is on her own, and so vulnerable (it sucks, I know)
b) he is usually in a dominant position, whether its because he's a shop clerk and she's reliant on him to sell her stuff or because she's on foot and he's on a vehicle, or because they're in an enclosed space, like a bus, and she can't get away, or because he's in a group of male friends and so not only has people to impress (usually making the catcall worse, in my experience) but also has back up and therefore knows you're less likely to respond
c) it is usually said in a voice, or with a gesture or facial expression, that insinuates malignant intent on his part.
Its the difference, as elsmith7 points out, between a compliment that acknowledges you as a human being and a catcall that objectifies you as a small, weak, vulnerable sex object that deserves to be treated like that because you are in effect only in existence to be treated like that.It's the statement that, hey, I'm in control here, and I'll assert myself into your space, and assert my gaze/opinion onto your body, because that's how society works, and there's nothing you can do about it.
(Hat tip to homebird for doing something about it!)
I think a large part of the difference is in how public and how loud the message is. Shouting is generally reserved for anger/violence/distress/warning, so a shouted compliment feels very threatening. Also catcalls tend to be very public. When a man hollers at a woman from across the street he isn't just talking to her, he's communicating to everyone around that HE has noticed this woman and is somehow claiming dibs or ownership or something whacked out like that.
Worst catcall, although in a kind of indirect way: I was taking the bus from my house to the bar one night, and I was wearing a strapless sun dress. Some moron thought it would be reeeeally funny to start talking loudly about HOW HOT IT IS IN HERE, LIKE WOW, SO HOT while blowing on the back of my neck.
Best compliment: a tossup between my best friend telling me that I'm an amazing person and she loves me, and my boyfriend telling me that he loves everything about me and detailing exactly what that includes.
As a man (the one who is supposed to say compliments and/or catcall) I clearly see the difference between compliment and catcall. It is the intention. Catcalling is done with intimidation/provocation in mind. Complimenting is being done to pleasure the person. That's it, very simple.
I admit that being young I did catcalling a couple of times, but it was unpleasant irrespective way of treating people so I stopped doing this. On the other hand I don't compliment women (other than my wife) either - I am lazy and see no reason in doing it.
There is no correct way to interact with strangers without any sort of precursor. There is no "how am I suppose to approach random women that I don't know but find attractive?" You're just not supposed to. Obviously it's not a hard fast rule; and sometimes that kind of interaction will go off just fine. But in general, no one has any obligation to talk to you for any reason. There is no need for some mysterious right way to make a stranger recognize you.
Hmm it's hard to say where the line is drawn. Once, when I was about 18, a man probably in his late forties or fifties seemed to be following me in the store. I figured I was paranoid, but he kept turning up right near me no matter where I went. When he got close enough that I felt threatened, I turned around and looked directly at him, making a stern face. He looked sort of sheepish and said. "Uhh… you have really pretty hair." While I don't think this is exactly a catcall, it made me feel VERY uncomfortable (and scared!)because of the way he approached me, his tone, and the age difference. He also towered over me in height, which is intimidating. So I didn't take it as a compliment, and it definitely did not make me feel good.
Thanks to those of you who are sticking to the topic at hand.
This discussion is really insightful. Let me clarify, it is not so much a question of when or if you should approach a person you feel is attractive or how to speak to a stranger, but how YOU personally determine when a catcall has been shouted your way and when a compliment has been given to you. And, of course, how you feel during both situations. If we could come up with some sort of meaningful, list of criteria for both (shout out to all the philosophy college majors), then it would be easier to respond to allegations that there is no difference and that catcalls should be accepted with glee. Think of the criteria for being a chair versus being a table. Usually, you sit on a chair and put things onto a table. That would be one distinction most people would agree with. I want to get to the core of the "catcallness" of a catcall, if that makes sense inside of anyone's head but my own :)
Wolf whistles are frightening because they represent hunting behaviour, with women as some kind of trophy. As a teen, I had guys follow me home, stare through my windows and phone me at home repeatedly saying what they wanted to do to me. Believe me, it wasn't a compliment and didn't feel like one. Hate to say it but don't encourage these people. Once I flipped the bird to some construction workers harassing me and they screamed at me that I was a lesbian and started following me. I was shaking. It's about intimidation, not flattery. Just like a lot of guys will pressure you into sex not because you're beautiful, but because they think they can. And because you're there. It's best not to delude ourselves that we're "special." We're prey. That's about it.
I've never really had any explicit catcalls, which probably has to do with the fact that I only recently started college in a big city where I'd be walking around alone; I grew up as a suburban kid being shuffled everyone by my mom. But there was this one Chinese-food delivery guy who told me I looked really beautiful, despite the fact that it was dark (so he couldn't see me too well) and I was wearing probably the frumpiest outfit in my closet. He also gave me a discount on my food! That definitely had the feeling of a catcall, rather than a compliment, especially later when I found out that he does that to pretty much every young woman who gets delivery from him. Yuck.
It's hard to think of specific compliments on my appearance that I really liked. Maybe that's because those compliments are not the ones that I cherish as much as the ones that have something to do with who I am inside, such as complimenting my intelligence or my composing/writing abilities. That's probably a good thing. :)
Except you do. It is part of human communication. We pick up on the subtle gestures, facial expressions, and intonations. There is no control over it.
No, I don't. As an experiment, I once went out with a friend of mine, just on a daily run of my routines, and at the end of every situation where I'd encounter or deal with another human, she and I would compare notes on this sort of thing.
Either I do not in any way notice any "body language", or, when forced to guess, just make something up.
My friend points out "She was flirting with you, it was all in her posture, the way she held her eyes, blah blah blah". I say that not only did I not notice that, but I thought she was a bit rude.
That's just one example of many. I do not speak fake mystery language. I'm sorry, you're going to have to accept being wrong here.
Every time you speak, you are giving off body language signals. *Every time*.
Nope. Often, (and this may sound silly), I have to mentally remind myself to use facial expressions. Because I know people like and/or expect them. But very often, I simply am not using any. Arms at my sides, or in the middle of whatever it was they were doing, face expressionless, words come out. No gesturing, no set of posture other than the way I was already standing.
This is how I am.
Go Google human non-verbal communication. It's not a gendered behavior, and it is certainly not a behavior you *decide* to participate in.
Again, I'm afraid you're going to have to accept being wrong.
All the women I know say they have trouble getting the males they know to pick up on non-verbal signals. Like I said, whether it be nature or nurture is another discussion, but for the most part, all the males I know are much more interested in direct communication.
Do you really think all that "I don't understand women" talk came out of nowhere? Or some secret plan to alienate women? Or from years of women and men having different ways of saying the same thing?
There's no harm, and no sexism in us being different, you know. Equal rights is one thing, exactly the same is another, and that other is boring.
Something else I'd like to see addressed is "The difference between a compliment and a catcall when it comes from a woman".
If we're truly about equality, I'd want to know if you'd hold women to the same standards as men. That is, if a woman asks a man out in a public place, would you say she was being inappropriate? Would you say that she was a harasser? An aggressor? Predatory?
Is it just as inappropriate when the female cashier at the gas station tells me to "smile more" and calls me "honey, doll, sweetie, handsome, and cutie"?