I live in Australia, in which there are many Muslim women, and many of them wear burkas (full veils, covering every part of the body except their eyes and hands).
The other day, I was at the beach (where, incedentally but importantly, there are many topless sunbathers), and a woman in a burka was breastfeeding her baby.
I passed without taking much notice, except to notice how absolutely adorable the little dear was. I was waiting for a friend just 100 metres away, and some people were discussing how ridiculous it was for her to "cover herself up and then breastfeed in public". They were blathering on about it for about five minutes, so I chimed in, saying that the traditional reason for a burka is to avoid a male gaze. While careful not to assume that this was this particular woman's reasons for wearing the garment, I explained that breast-feeding is not a sexualised act, and not one that we should view as such *insert breast-feeding in public feminist discourse here*. I asked them if they would be so offended if she was feeding her baby with a bottle, and they said "Well of COURSE not, but that's not the point", and I left before I was told to.
This seems to be a combination of two very important feminist issues, and I was wondering if anybody had any other thoughts on the subject... aside from telling people to mind their own business.
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Other interesting point- the clothes you describe would, here in England, be considered an Abaya (possibly with a Niqab veil). It's sometimes known as a Burka, but that's really easily confused (especially aloud) with a Burqa, which is similar but the veil over the face covers the eyes with a thin mesh so they can't be seen. Here, it's a conversation-stopper to get it wrong when talking to some islamic women- others refer to it as a "postbox", so y'know, there's no hard and fast rule.
I'd be intruiged as to how many people know the different names without looking them up.
And she can do whatever the hell she likes, as far as I was concerned. She had a hungry baby, for crying out loud.
I'm curious-- could you see her breast or was the baby under a fold of cloth somehow?
You could see her breast, but obviously not her nipple, because there was a baby eating from there :)
It seems like the people you were talking to were trying to place their own stereotypical views about devout Muslim women on a devout Muslim woman they don't even know. Who the hell are they to say what is allowed and appropriate for her culture? I think you did a good job in telling them why breast feeding in public is not something that should be sexualized and deemed inappropriate. But I think there's more to it than that since these people were making assumptions about what is sanctioned by her culture based on stereotypes. Would it have made a difference to them if she were White or one of the topless sunbathers?
Well good on you for telling them to mind their own damned business. I'm not going to pretend to know a lot about the issue but couldn't it be one of those things where wearing the burka is considered by the wearer to be a religious provision as something that women simply need to do, and yet feeding a hungry baby is just as important, so the uncovering is an acceptable allowance based on a greater need (that of the baby's)? Either way, if the individual woman has decided that what she is doing is right, then it is right, and if others have a problem with it they should bugger off.
"Either way, if the individual woman has decided that what she is doing is right, then it is right, and if others have a problem with it they should bugger off"
We dont live in a vacuum. The choices we make and the perspective we put them in are not autonomous, especially when religion is in the mix. Often religious homes and family indocrinate their kids into religious ways and those that grow up in them dont question them. Just check out "Jesus Camp," to get an idea of what I'm talking about. Sometimes women do things that are sexist and inhibitory simply because the way their family expressed their religion was in a repressive misogynistic way. I grew up in a house where my mom and step-dad were huge baptist christians. Dr. Laura was often (sadly) quoted. I saw that alot of the females in that church had unhealthy views about themselves (especially revolving around sexuality). I tried changing their minds, but to no avail. So,its not like its really her choice as if she woke up one day, unencumbered by her religion and the religious/cultural community and decided, "yeah, I'm going to wear an outfit that looks like a beehive," or anything.
Hmm, I totally see what you are saying about the way that women are indoctrinated by their upbringing, but unless there is an instance of abuse (eg. having to cover up under threat of beatings etc.) I don't agree that we should impose our ideals on other women. Everyone is affected by their upbringing, but all we can do is educate and show people it's ok to be liberated. Beyond that, I think it's counterproductive to tell women what they should/shouldn't do or wear. If they choose to wear the burka, to me that is the same as choosing to walk around topless in public: I find it objectifying, but I absolutely defend other womens' rights to wear what they want and act how they want. To me that's what feminism is about.
To elaborate on my post: when I was an adolescent and teenager, my mother became enamored with baptist christian faith. She became a part of that because thats the faith my new step-dad was. I grew up in that kind of atmosphere and she did some things that wasnt of her own volition, but if you asked her whether or not it was her choice she wouldve replied that it was, even though it wasnt. Later on I started working my feminism magic on her and she started to say she didnt really believe in it, she was just going along with it to fit in. i suspect thats what these women are doing. I cant imagine that a woman, out of the blue, would declare that she wants to wear an outfit that even closely resembles the burqa. I dont think its autonomous, I think its definitely misogynistic.
I'm against burkas. I think its the same thing as a woman objectifying herself, but instead of doing it by undressing to please a guy, shes dressing up to coolesce with mens intrusive sexual ways. Its not like shes dressing like that for herself. In a society in which men have respectful attitudes for women, there would be no reason to shun the male gaze. And if the male gaze is a problem, then it should be the guys that walk around with a blindfold, not the women. I'm sure the people who made the comment were simply surprised that a women who wanted to cover herself up to avoid the male gaze wouldntve thought to cover her breast as so many men still view a nursing mother with sexual thoughts. Every part of a women is a tool, from her arms, to her legs, to her eyes, so I dont know why she felt the need to cover them up and not her breast. If shes using her breast as a tool and not a sexual object then why cant she understand (and the men in her culture) that those are the same things as her breast that feeds a child? So I can completely understand there inquiries.
Did you forget all about that vacuum we don't live in? I don't really care that some people don't get, because they don't have to. That Muslim woman doesn't have to ask members of the dominant culture for their permission to practice what she believes is required by her religion and to practice the act of feeding her child in the healthiest way. She's completely within her rights to wear a burka and breast feed at the same time.
No one stated that she needed permission to bear her breast to feed her child, or that there was anything inherently wrong with that.
So why should they need permission to observe the irony inherent in going to great lengths to cover your entire body yet willingly expose a highly sexualized part of the body?
By "permission" I meant needing to do what the dominant culture expects her to do. She doesn't need to do what's sanctioned by the dominant culture, but what's sanctioned in her own culture. She doesn't owe anything to the dominant culture. Her dress is up to her and her God, and what she does with her breast is up to her and her baby.
Breasts are highly sexualized according to who? Even that is defined by culture. In many cultures, breasts aren't considered sexy. The function of breasts is to nurse babies. This woman was using her breast for that purpose. The same people complaining about this woman breast feeding didn't seem to mind any of the topless sunbathers who were exposing their breasts. But it's all of a sudden ironic and up for discussion when a devout Muslim woman uses her breast for *gasp!* feeding a baby? Give me a break.
But her dominant culture is muslim and dictated by men. And since when is it wrong when the dominant culture doesnt like to see their women so overtly dehumanized and objectified?Its like extreme right-wing Christians, they live in America, yet their dominant culture that they subscribe to is extreme christianity. Thats their community, which is also highly influenced by men.
Yeah, I think all of us feministing posters can agree that when a women is breastfeeding shes not to be sexually objectfied. But why is her breast seen as a tool and yet her arms, legs, eyes, ect arent? I'd rather adhere to a culture that lightly sexualized breasts, versus having to wear a beekeeper costume because everything is considered a sexual object on you, but apparently your breasts - and only when breastfeeding. You support misogyny in religion? Thats very ignorant for a feminist. I guess those quiverfulls have your vote. Your not going to do anything to interject some feminism to those women are you? Just let them suffer under the religious propoganda theyve been fed since birth. Wow, (sarcastic) what a liberator. You also seem to forget that religion isnt usually freely chosen and is highly misogynistic, especially when practicied in the orthodox ways. so, why are you saying that this women isnt a proudct of misogyny within her culture that reared her to adhere to orthodox views of women? Why celebrate it as freedom of religion, when usually we were never free to choose our religion? You dont think that 'averting the male gaze' is wrong? Do you think these attitudes would exist in a more feminist world? Why cant you see the burka for what it is; a dehumanizing way to make a women invisible as dictated by men? Why defend it? Do you also think other forms of dehumanizatuion and mutilation are fine as long as its under the superficial cover of religion? Isnt that jeopardizing womens progress to religious conservatism? Letting orthodox religion run rampant in society oppresses women. Just look at what Bush did. So, if there was a wave of religious adhereticism in a country, which involved women being quiverfulls, you wouldnt object? Why even be a feminist if you cant influence others?
I like how you ask me if I support misogyny in religion, and then answer for me. That's not very feministy of you! I don't support misogyny in religion, so I didn't read the rest of your idiotic comment, since it started off with a falsehood. I don't need you making assumptions about my beliefs and positions. But I also don't support judging women who follow that religion, which you continue to do. If this woman wants to wear a burka, let her wear one. If she doesn't want to wear a burka and does anyway, let's not assume she has enough power in her culture to throw the burka off and wear what she really wants to wear. She knows the reasons she wears what she wears, and she knows if she really wants to wear what she wears. You don't have to tell her how to feel. I've known young Muslim women who choose not to wear a hijab, but they choose to wear long sleeves, pants, and skirts to be modest. Some women only wear the hijab in Mosque or in public, but take it off at home. I see nothing wrong with that. These are women who are making decisions about their dress that let them feel comfortable and follow their culture. If you see something wrong with that, then you're not much of a liberator yourself. You prefer that women follow your rules instead of figuring out what's best for themselves. You seem to have a habit of telling people what to think and making assumptions about what they believe based on nothing. Stop it.
I think it had less to do with the fact that they were shocked to see her breasts than the fact that a woman who views everything as potentially sexual by a man wouldnt cover her breasts. I mean, shes in a burqa, its reasonable to be surprised at that. It also doesnt make sense as pointed out; her breast is a tool, but her legs, arms, eyes, balance, external presence isnt? Because of this I dont think its because its her choice to wear the burqa, but was something espoused by the men in her culture. Only a misogynist view would see a breast as a tool and the rest of her body as something to be covered up. Its inconsistent. It seems she didnt stop to think about that but just went along with what she was blindly taught to do. I feel bad for her kid. Imagine growing up and not being able to see the face of your mother out in public. Isnt that necessary for a child? And I'm sure if she grew up around burqas its not her autonomous decision.Her mom probably nursed her the same way. American women still suffer from abstract and overt indocrination, so I'm sure seeing your mom in a burqa would be indoctrinative as well.
Thats my point exactly.
I don't think it serves feminist activism to single out the oppressed for colluding with the patriarchy, at least not until you can find a way to establish that they are women with sufficient privilege who can easily risk to defy the culture. Carol Hanisch's pro-woman line makes a lot of sense to me.
"I don't know why she felt the need to cover them up and not her breast."
Why is it that when we don't understand something we think it's irrational? We can't pass a judgment on this woman with the little knowledge we have of her.
To me, this incidence shows how generally people tend to be pragmatic with their beliefs - the main difference between 'pop' religion and 'fundie' religion. Another thing you could observe is that people don't think out every detail of their quotidian routine... why do most people brush their teeth only in the morning when dentists say it's more important to do it at night? Not everyone's an enlightened feminist, and maybe she's not thinking about the male gaze, or maybe even doesn't care about it - she could just be doing it because that's what she's done all her life and that's what she thinks will get her to heaven. In fact, the fact that she took her breast out in public - a sexualized part of her body as you say - can be seen as indicative of her indifference to the male gaze..
"why should they need permission to observe the irony inherent in going to great lengths to cover your entire body yet willingly expose a highly sexualized part of the body?"
I don't see it as an innocent observation of an irony. This incidence suspiciously fits into the pattern of treating women's bodies - and what they do with it - as a matter of general interest.
Uh-duh. *Smacks forehead*. If women's bodies and what we (not "they") do with them can't be a topic of general interest on a feminist forum (where, of all places it will be discussed with the most nuance and respect), where can women talk about these things? Use your noggin before you brain yourself with that jerking knee.
I think the point is that needing to cover up that much implies that the entire female body is inherently sexual, that everything part of a woman is sexual, no matter what the context. That's my understanding of why people deem burkas, burqas, necessary. So basically, I agree with your friends. I don't think they were rejecting breastfeeding in general, they were just pointing out the hypocrisy of the burka and the breast.
I agree that breastfeeding isn't inherently sexual, but I don't think it was conducive to refuse to discuss it further with your friends. I don't think you understood what they were trying to communicate.
So now she's a hypocrite for daring to wear a burka and breast feed at the same time? Are the topless sunbathers hypocrites for exposing their breasts in public without wanting random men to squeeze them? How dare they expose their breasts in public without inviting men to harass and assault them!
In all honesty that comparison doesn't make any sense and I do not think you understand what the others here are trying to say.
It makes perfect sense. Most of the people here are judging this woman negatively for doing something they think is contradictory, breast feeding in public while wearing a burka. Our patriarchal culture, which feels that men are entitled to sex at any time they want, might assault a woman and blame it on her dress. "How could she dress like that and not be inviting that kind of attention!" "How could she be topless on a beach and not be inviting strange men to treat her like an object!" That's a contradiction in the minds of misogynists, and it seems to be the general belief in our society. You and everyone who is telling her to rip the burka off or breast feed in private are pushing the same belief -- you're going to be judged by how you dress, and if I disagree with how you're dressed, either get out of my sight or face ridicule.
I agree with anunfunnyfeminist...how is it possibly appropriate for people to openly discuss and deride another woman's personal bodily choices in public? To me this is the modern version of the housewife debate. Yes, it's vitally important that women be allowed to work outside the home just as easily as men. What if a woman chooses to stay home instead? Do we have a right to heap scorn on that woman for making her own choice? Maybe she's just brainwashed by men. Maybe she's not. All we can do is make it societally acceptable to NOT choose that, just as it is acceptable not to fully cover our bodies. But deriding a woman because she chooses not to fit the liberated social norm in western culture simply isn't productive. What if a Muslim woman had mostly feminist viewpoints, as well as wearing a burka? Would we exclude her from dicussions because she doesn't fit the social norm expected of a feminist? We would be missing a valuable viewpoint.
Have to agree with Gopher and Fitz here. Feminisn should be for every woman...and FAR too many religious beliefs - in EVERY society are about telling women what to do.
It is our duty as feminists to critisize all religions from a woman's stand point. Religion isn't some untoucable subject that should never be discussed.
It is also our duty to discuss and analyze people's way of practising their religion (burqa's etc.). If we do not then patriarchy could be left to increase in those religions - and women suffer.
An example: I used to work in a nursery here in the UK and a child got hit several times (one could sy "thrashed") by his father in front of myself - and another member of staff.
Myself and my colleague did waht is supposed to be done. We recorded the incident and called social services.
The father's response? First..he was mystified because he claimed that that is how children are reprimanded in his culture. Luckily, social services didn't let this pass and an investigation was held.
So was this man right? That as long as this is normal in "his culture" that it is ok? NO....and I was disgusted that he thought that it was!!
There seems to be far too much "this is my religion", or "this is my culture" nowadays as an excuse for disgraceful behaviour. And people just accept it. WHY?? These are ADULTS so they should act like them - HOWEVER they are bought up!!
That is so sad. I can imagine the horror if the government allowed him to do this because of his 'culture,' or 'religion.' I think there ought to be certain non-religiously based standards set in every culture so we can maintain a set standard. This will also allow us to challenge more oppressive ways that stem from diverse origins.
ps: apologies for the spelling mistakes in my last post...am just on my way out!!
There's a difference between physical abuse and wearing a certain type of clothing. Yes, religion should be examined through a feminist lens. That doesn't mean you should impose your criticism of religion onto others' lives unless there is physical or *extreme* psychological harm and even then, the latter mostly applies to children you can't make people stop believing things even if you think they are harmful beliefs. There are anti-feminist women and yes, they piss me off sometimes. I'm going to tell them what I believe and why, but I'm not going to try and impose my will on them because it's a free country.
Yes - there is definately a difference between physical harm and wearing a type of clothing. However...all types of patriarchy contribute to a view of women as objects. And viewing women as objects contributes to the risks of physical harm.
And I don't quite see how my saying that critsizing religious practises is ok is interpreted as "imposing" my views on anyone.
I was making a very valid point that if you accept one type of partiarchial control (religious or otherwise)that that can open doors to accepting more harmful types of patriarchial control. And that is not acceptable to me. Feel free to disagree - but I am free to disagree with and critsize this.
I don't think anyone here is trying to defend patriarchal religions. The point is, WHY should it matter so much what a woman wears? If a man decides to cover himself up, I wouldn't see anyone objecting to that.
The feminist Utopia that would answer people's spiritual needs, that would free women of the patriarchal mandate to have the ideal physical appearance, that would basically make meaningful any discussion of a woman's choice, is yet to come. Until then, please, can we lay off these enlightened feminist criticisms of women in burkah?
Please read the feminist classic "The Personal is Political" by Carol Hanisch in which she talks about the pro-woman line.
I do not think we should lay off critisizing anyone's style of dress because many of those styles of dress are dictated by patriarchy.
As we all know too well - westernized women's stlye of dress is dictated by patriarchy and we critisize that - so we should apply those same standards to everyone.
I do actually agree with much of what you are saying - but that utopia does not yet exist. Will it ever? But that does not mean we cannot discuss it.
Indeed - there are many women who choose to wear burqa (there are many women who choose to wear masculine-dictated clothes in the UK and the USA) - but there are many who do not choose to and we should always discuss these issues..otherwise we cannot reach a point where these women have freedom of choice.
Damn right we're not there yet. And we should judge society not only by what women choose to wear, but by what men choose to wear as well. In most cases, there really is no explanation other than reasoning rooted in sexism for restrictive/excessive covering to only be chosen by women and almost never by men.
But even feminists wear what is deemed culturally appropriate based on patriarchal standards. I wear a bra. I wear nail polish on my toes. I wear skirts and stockings and ballet flats and PJ pants with cupcakes on them. These are things my brother and most other men wouldn't wear. Does that mean I can't possibly be a feminist? I still choose what I wear based on what I feel best in. I feel best in women's clothing in colors and shapes that flatter my complexion and body. I doubt I've been brainwashed to feel comfortable in my clothes. I feel comfortable in my clothes because I know what clothes are supposed to feel and look like on me. If I felt uncomfortable with what I was wearing, I'd wear something else. As a feminist, I know I'm allowed to wear what I want no matter what others say about it and I can change my clothes freely. I wouldn't feel good if I wore my brother's clothes. I wouldn't feel like myself. But it seems like some people here would consider me more liberated if I felt uncomfortable in men's dress than if I felt good about myself in women's dress. What's more important? Looking liberated or feeling liberated?
Wow. What an amazing picture that scene would have made.
I'm really incomfortable with the practice of burqa/niqab etc, and I tend to automatically second guess women who tell me that they are choosing to do so freely *because* they are feminists.
But for a covered woman to feel comfortable enough to go to an area as culturally hostile as a beach and then feel comfortable enough to expose her breast. Wow. For all that's wrong with Australia, we must be doing something right. :)