Hello lovely Feminists. I want to first thank you for your intriguing posts which keep me occupied, engaged, and thought-provoked when I have the occasional break at work. I thank you for making me feel the presence of a real community of people who understand the world in a similar way (and this is such a rarity).
And now, on to my problem.
I work in a high-profile publishing company. Periodically, I wo(man) the front desk. We're on a high floor, so sometimes messengers come to deliver packages and they're escorted by the building's security guards up to our floor. Now one guard in particular has come up to our floor during my shift several times, and every time he does he sort of looks me up and down and looks almost as if he's going to lick his lips. I feel violated with him just being around.
Now just when I thought I might be crazily paranoid, he arrived today, escorting another messenger, and while I was signing the slip, entering the package data, and answering phone calls, he managed to ask me if I had AIM--to which I lied and said no. Then he looked down at his phone and said, "Well then why don't you give me your number so I can text you." I was stunned but still trying to be professional so I said, "That's ok, thanks." Then he left.
Now this was six hours ago. I'm angry. Angry that I could be at work, acting as the face of a company, and a building (but not company) employee could come right up to me, unaffected by our being at work, act as if we were out on the street or in a store (though I'd be just as outraged) and just try and get my number. This guy didn't even know my f***ing name! And I felt exposed and uncomfortable. I didn't say anything to the other, main receptionist when she returned from lunch, because I didn't know if it was legitimate or if she'd say anything.
This issue brings up greater problems to me--like the fact that all messengers and guards who come through our doors throughout the day are men. I'm one woman at the desk. That he clearly thought it was all right to proposition me while I was working is unacceptable. That I have worried that it might happen with other messengers/guards in the past and that I happened to be right this time is even more unacceptable.
I wanted to share this because I wanted the reactions of other women. When I told my mom, her immediate response was, "he likes you," to which I angrily responded, "I don't give a shit what he likes...I'm at work"...and then of course it became a stupid cycle of "don't use that language in front of me." When I was so pissed that my own mother didn't feel my violation, I asked, "If I had been attacked, would you still be reprimanding me for my language?" and she said "You should respect that I don't like that language."
Ok, tangent over. But anger--still simmering. And even some fear and disappointment.
Any consoling thoughts?
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Depends on how well you want to "just get along" at work. This dude doesn't technically work in the same department as you, correct? That might make it easier. I would go to your boss and tell her/him what's happening, and how you don't think it's appropriate for work. Do it calmly, not angrily, but just tell them it's making you uncomfortable. Tell him he's done similar things on multiple occasions, and it makes it hard for you to work,
At best, Boss will be understanding because you're right-you shouldn't be propositioned at work, and he was pretty unprofessional.
At worst, Boss will do SOMEthing, because this could become a potential sexual harassment suit. Not that you would sue, necessarily, but companies know to be on the look out for that shit.
and-I didn't mention this, but if you're scared, you should definitely tell your boss. There's no reason for you to be scared at work.
I’m surprised this hasn’t been suggested, but if someone asks you out or for your number it is perfectly fine to say, “No thank you, I’m not available”. That is clear and to the point and true without leaving any room for someone to call you a stuck up bitch or whatever other nasty phrases people can come up with when they feel shot down. It doesn’t matter if you aren’t seeing anyone. You aren’t available to him because you aren’t interested and that’s all he needs to know. Now, I don’t necessarily agree that it is wrong for people to meet others at work and initiate a date. Of course I don’t recommend dating people you work with too closely or who are your direct reports or superiors, but that’s still a matter of personal choice unless the company has rules against it. The fact is that many people do meet their significant others through work and work related situations so it really isn’t out there for someone to think they might be able to meet someone this way. It isn’t clear to me if you would feel violated had this guy been someone that you were actually attracted to. I’ll just go with what you said about him making you feel uncomfortable: was it because he seemed sleazy in how he presented himself? I’m married but as long as a man approaches me in a respectful way to show his interest I don’t have a problem with them. It’s simple enough for me to let them know I’m not available and I’ll always thank them for being so courteous in the way they approached me (such as asking me “Excuse me, but I see you here all the time and would like to get to know you, but are you married or seeing someone?”). If they are respectful I will be respectful back and take it as a compliment that someone finds me attractive. If someone approaches me the way a construction worker makes cat calls I waste no time with the niceties.
I don't think it's necessarily inappropriate to ask a coworker (or a sort of coworker, since he doesn't actually work with you) for a phone number. Many people do meet significant others at work. What I think can cross the line into 'inappropriate' is the method of the 'come on' and the reaction to your response.
Asking for your number seems harmless, but the looking you up and down vibe is something else. To me, asking if you have AIM isn't exactly a 'come on' or a 'proposition' but the fact remains that if it makes you uncomfortable, that does matter. Since the 'proposition' itself was relatively tame/innocent, I wouldn't make any complaints about it as it is. However, you should make it known to him that his advances are not welcome. Make it clear that your answer is NO THANK YOU. If he doesn't take no for an answer or if he cops an attitude or something, then THAT is a real problem.
-Lilith of the ESC
I can feel your pain. When I worked with the public (at a counter instead of reception) I felt like "low hanging fruit" for a lot of men. Sorry to make it sound so bad, but it's sort of a little power dynamic here that's not too cool.
To me personally, what you are describing is not a neutral setting. So yeah, you have the right to feel uneasy just from that aspect. And by non-neutral I mean, you're sort of immobilized out front in plain view but everyone else can come and go to some degree.
From what I gather it sounds like mostly the annoyance and a feeling of being exposed, rather than feeling unsafe? My ex-boyfriend used to be annoyed by women propositioning him while he was stuck dealing with the public, so he wore a big fat wedding band...of course he never said he was creeped out or felt unsafe--just annoyed.
I believe you do have the right to be angry. I doubt he tries such things with your male coworkers. Do you know if he or any other guards have acted like this with other female co-workers? That might be something you should check out because that will provide a stronger argument if and when (I do believer you should) go to your boss.
You have the right to be angry because from the sounds of it he only approaches you like this in front of strangers [delivery people, visitors, etc] and rarely in front of those who could have the power to say anything. I admit, if it were a personal interest, this would not seem inappropriate, but often that is made in the sense of mutuality. In a traditional sense even if the advancement is rejected, at first there is a sense of common interest. I don't sense a common interest from what you've said, all I see is a person trying to use male privilege to get what he wants. I've seen this at work myself too just last week. I'm a barista at a Starbucks kiosk in the local mall, and I normally close. The cleaning staff in our section is all male. When I close with a male coworker, they don't say anything to us unless I'm standing alone by the end of the kiosk or coming from the back room. When I closed last weekend with a female coworker, they wouldn't stop talking to us. They were circling the kiosk (which they don't normally do in cleaning), and saying things such as "Does so-and-so have any love?" and other jokingly mild inappropriate statements. And it made me mad. We all had jobs to do, it's one thing to engage in conversation, it's another borderline harass.
And you, I feel, are in a particular position because the man bothering you is a security guard. The person hired by the building to help protect you and your coworkers is the one making you uncomfortable. That is a serious issue. You have the right to work in a comfortable and safe environment and it doesn't sound like he's in accordance with that, though he is one of the people directly responsible for your safety in this building.
Now that you've said no (which hopefully he'll understand), see how the rest of the week plays out and if his attitude towards you changes. If there are still any problems, go talk to your boss asap to get it resolved.
I believe you do have the right to be angry. I doubt he tries such things with your male coworkers.
I think we're overreacting a little bit here. Obviously he 'tries such things' with the male coworkers. He tried to get her phone number, which means he probably wants to date her - why would he try that with her male coworkers?
I don't think his actions were necessarily malicious. The only reason it's an issue is because she felt uncomfortable. Regardless of his intentions, she has a right to feel comfortable at her job... although I think we have to be realistic about what his intentions probably were. (I'm NOT making light of the situation. Regardless of whether he's trying to harass you or just trying to be friendly, you shouldn't have to deal with unwanted advances. I just think some of the terminology thrown around here is a little extra inflammatory).
I don't sense a common interest from what you've said, all I see is a person trying to use male privilege to get what he wants.
Maybe he thought there would be a common interest? Maybe he's just clueless. I've been approached by tons of guys that I wasn't actually interested in, but only a few of them would I say were actually behaving inappropriately. The real question now is whether he will back off or continue to pursue you. I think your 'no' wasn't that strong - so perhaps you need to be clear that you're not interested. And then he should leave you alone.
If he doesn't, then definitely go to your boss or someone else. But at this point, all he's done was try to get your phone number, so give him a chance to prove whether he's just a guy who can't get a date or an actual jerk.
~Lilith of the ESC
(Just to be clear, these are my opinions, not the whole ESC's)
BTW, that should say 'obviously he DOESN'T try that with the male coworkers'. I suck at life.
This is a tough call without actually seeing the behavior. If he really looks you up and down and licks his lips, that is very inappropriate and you should speak to someone about it. But those sorts of looks can be interpreted subjectively and it can be hard to tell what is really going on.
If we ONLY consider asking for your number or AIM, I don't honesty think he did anything that bad. It might be annoying but there's nothing really that wrong with him asking for your phone number and you saying no. If he reacts badly to you saying no that's another story, but it isn't really all that bad for him to essentially ask if you'd like to have a conversation with him sometime outside of work.
And, you know, he might actually ask male coworkers for their phone number if he wants to go out for a beer or invite them over to watch sports or whatever it is men do together (jk on the stereotypes ;-)
I used to work at an information desk, and it always bugged me when guys hit on me in rude ways while I was there becuase I didn't feel free to respond rudely back. But I don't think I could get mad if a guy asked me if he could talk to me outside of work. I would get mad if he didn't take no for an answer and kept bugging me, or if he got mean about it. I DID get mad when guys did things like walk behind me and ask me to pick something up off the ground (that really happened), or try to talk me into going up to the deserted 8th floor with them. But you can't really fault someone for just asking for your screenname-- you're perfectly free to say no thanks.
Its one of those things where you might understandably be annoyed when a guy you don't like does it, but would you be annoyed if a guy you liked asked for your AIM screenname or phone number? If the answer is no then you can't really blame him for trying.
I take everyone's point, and thank you, foremost, for responding.
I guess in retrospect I was angry when really, annoyed would be the right categorization.
However... he was not just asking if he could get to know me better. I've been around these kinds of guys (you know, the ones who don't know your name or anything about you, but who just ask for your number) too much to believe he actually wanted to just go on a date.
The problem was, as Kari said, that it seemed he was using his male privilege to proposition me at work, that my body and person was open and available for him. It makes no difference to me that he asked for my AIM and # and that he didn't just whistle. As far as I'm concerned, I don't want any advances while working. It would be somewhat different if I had been building a repore with a colleague who I'd known for a while, worked together with, or at least spoke to several times, but again, (and I stress), this is a building messenger guard (not from my company) who only comes up for a couple of minutes at a time--and that he spent those few minutes hitting on me, is enough to tell me he kept thinking about it every time he came here...and that makes me uncomforable.
It's not that I'm not interested, but that I couldn't see myself interested in anyone who I barely know and who just comes up and asks for my number. I used my judgment and was uncomfortable...not flattered. It reminds me of when I was a dental assistant and received a phone call from an insurance company and the male on the line asked suddently if I had a boyfriend. This random kind of asking is not "trying to get to know me better," so I'd say it is not to be confused with an actual potential for a relationship.
And I DO blame him for trying. This is not the place... and I'll make a strong bet that he wasn't asking any guys out for much of anything...
I understand your discomfort and you would be perfectly within your legal rights to complain to your boss, or your company HR department - or your union, if you are fortunate enough to have one at your job.
With that said, I really disagree with your rigid view of the workplace being "inappropriate" for dating and that you should only date co workers that you know very well.
You are well within your rights to hold that view and practice it - but you need to understand that not everybody thinks that way.
Especially men - who frequently are expected to be the initiators of any male female social encounters and who in practice will not go out on that many dates unless they do the asking.
Now, I don't know about this particular guy - you'd know far better than me.
But, as a security guard, he might be in a situation where the only time he gets to meet women at work is when he escorts messengers up to the reception desks - he might spend the whole rest of the day in the lobby with the other guards (who might all be men).
It's perfectly understandable why he would take advantage of the few minutes he can spend with the women at the reception desks to ask out one of the receptionists (in this case, you) that he finds attractive.
Depending on what kind of life this guy has, this might be his only chance during a weekday to talk to a woman.
His technique was awkward and rough, so I can see why he turned you off (that staring and licking of the licks thing wasn't very helpful either).
But then again, maybe this guy isn't that good at talking to women in general - which explains why he acted the way he did with you.
Of course, if he persists, he's in the wrong, and if you haven't complained to anybody that would be a good time to start.
In any case, best of luck with this situation and I hope you don't have any more problems with him.
I can believe that he's kind of creepy. The staring could just be checking you out (which most people are guilty of at some point) or he could be deliberately trying to make you uncomfortable. And I also don't like it when someone asks for my number without talking to me first.
I do think it's unfair to be offended by someone asking for your number just because you're at work. You may not think it's the place, but most people don't mind. It's perfectly acceptable to say no and continue with what you're doing. If the guy isn't a creeper he'll respect that and do the same.
If he'd bothered to have a conversation with you before asking, and then been polite after, I'd have told you to relax.
If he does anything inappropriate in the future, you have a complaint. I don't blame him for asking, but if he keeps being persistent than he's obnoxious and you should let someone know.
Yeah, there's something to be said for picking up on non-verbal cues. I think that in order for it to be appropriate for a co-worker to ask someone out there should have been some social interaction between them that indicated her interest in him (or vice versa), but hitting on someone who's name you don't even know, who hasn't shown any interest in you, and who's stuck in a spot where you can ogle them all day does cross the line a little.
Rachel,
As you may already know, a lot of men would not agree with you on that.
There are a lot of guys who practice the "law of averages" approach to dating - ask out every woman they meet, in the hopes that maybe 1 or 2 percent will say yes.
To those guys, all those rules you apply are flat out irrelevant - it's a "numbers game" and the more women they ask out, the more dates they will get.
Hopefully, some of those women will actually like them and be compatible with them.
So, ask out 1,000 women, get 10 dates, and maybe 1 of those women actually likes you and is willing to spend more time with you or initiate a relationship or a sexual encounter.
It's a lifestyle choice and while you may not agree with it, in a society that still by and large expects men to do the initiation in male female relationships, it's a very effective technique for men.
He had no right to ask you out and you have every right to feel angry if he is creepy and weird. I've met a lot of creepy delivery guys/workmen so I feel your pain.
I have to ask though - is it possible that you feel more affronted *because* he is a delivery guy or whatever? It's not bad to admit that. I know lots of people who got angry by being occasionally asked out by delivery men and shop clerks etc and pretty much admitted it was because on some level they were angry that the men dared to think they were on *their* level. What I mean is, would you feel the same way if a work colleague/equal asked you out? As angry? This is not flame, I'm genuinely interested.
Because I'm gonna be honest - I've dated co workers before. I've also crossed paths with people in a professional setting and exchanged numbers. I don't think that there is such a strong taboo against asking people out in work as you think. No one has the right to make you feel uncomfortable and you should never ignore it. but it's worth being aware of what it is in some cases that may be doing it. Like if I'm in a dark street and I see a large black guy walking towards me, I'm to some degree societally conditioned to feel fear. I will always respond to my fear (the gift of fear ftw) but acknowledging that part of that fear is determined by class/race considerations stops me from feeling blame/anger.
I think if you acknowledged that some of the anger/revulsion you feel is class based, you might begin to feel slightly less angry.
I disagree with you on that whole "right to ask you out" thing. He has a perfect right to ask her out. And she has a perfect right to say no. And he has a duty to respect her no.
But there was nothing wrong with him trying in the first place.
You might have a point about the class thing - she might have felt differently if he was a famous author or one of the editors at her company.
But he was a mere security guard - who she might (wrongly) think is "beneath" her because of his blue collar job and his wages.
She doesn't mention his race here - it would be curious to know if they are of different ethnic groups and more relevantly if she's White and he's African American or Latino.
Most of the office buildings I work in have mostly White office workers - except for the secretaries, file clerks and receptionists, who are mostly women of color, and the service workforce are mostley people of color also.
I am a carpenter who installs office furniture - so I'm perceived by some to be "beneath" the office workers who's desks I install, even though I make a hell of a lot more money and have much better health benefits than many of them. In a lot of office buildings, I'm not even allowed to ride in the same elevator as the white collar folks (I have to take the freight elevator) so I know all about the class snobbishness thing.