K, seriously, fellow white feminist women? READ THIS.
Annotate it.
Highlight it.
Scribble notes in the margins.
Read it BEFORE you try and engage with black feminist, womanist, or other feminists of color.
No... really, I mean it, NOW.
Because this shit keeps happening, and while I know you don't mean it like that, while I know you didn't do it on purpose, while I know that the world around us has tainted us and we never asked to be a part of it...tough shit, we are.
Please take my advice on this. Save yourself the embarrassment. I've been the newly feminist white woman from suburbia raring to go and finding herself with shit coming out of her mouth that when it was read back to her through the perceptions of those reading it, it was downright ugly. It hurts to find out what your thoughts mean for the lives of others sometimes. Yes. It throws your whole little world into flux to find out you don't have to wear a white sheet to be racist. Yes. I know.
I'll even give you a hug and help you deal.
But you HAVE to deal.
This shit will probably keep happening, as new, young, white feminists keep coming to the movement. But we gotta spread the word. We have to do what we can to nip it in the bud. Because ignorant white women are hurting our sisters in movement, and making it more difficult for the rest of us to be trusted by them. Because this is our function as allies, to use our social position to point this shit out. Because at some point, it'd be nice for this movement to actually be realized.
And when you're just starting out, seriously, it's a good idea to just shut the fuck up and listen to the truth being spoken around and to you.
Trust me on this. And read Barbara Smith, just for a start.
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Ah, the oppression olympics.
A while ago, on TVGuide.com's news blog, a self-proclaimed feminist was doing her hardest to prove that sexism is more of a problem than racism because there are more women than POC. I think it was during the Sarah Palin debacle, although my memory feels like it was further back than that. I was just astounded that she was so gung-ho about it, and I was like, "What's the point? If someone turns to you and says you're right...what then?" She didn't even have an answer, and she went on to say rather enlightened things like, "Black people need to sit down and shut up because feminism is the new thing, black people have had their time, now it's ours."
I realize it's different than the linked blog, because you seem to have faith that they "didn't mean it like that" and the commenter on TVG DID in fact "mean it like that" but at the time I completely believed that she was just one isolated example of a complete idiot (I believe I even called her one, not my finest moment, I admit). I now realize it's far more widespread than that, oy.
How is this post engaging in Oppression Olympics?
It seems alixana's referring to the situation that prompted the WomanistMusings post to which the Original Poster linked. (A majority-Euro feminist group asked a non-Euro feminist for her help in fighting the sexism of the Virgin Airways ad, and she did, only to hear that feminist group later complain that the ad proved that "Racism is not acceptable to society, but Sexism still is!" )
Correct me if I'm wrong, alixana.
No, you're correct, that's exactly what I'm referring to. I should have been clearer.
Ah I see!! I thought that could have been what you meant but was unclear. Thanks for posting back. :)
From the original post--
"Dear white women, seriously get a clue. More often than not your fight against sexism is about assuring that you have the same right to oppress as white males."
I find THAT very offensive.
Why? As a generality, it's true; our fight to end sexist oppression has and continues to often come on the backs of women of color. It doesn't matter that was not the intent most of us have in mind, it is the reality.
Exactly.
Why? Seriously? Probably because my fight against sexism does NOT come on the backs of women of color.
Even if your individual actions don't, the movement by and large still does, and if you don't know that, you're simply wrong. *shrug*
Could you possibly be any more full of yourself with that dogma?
It's not dogma, it's history. :\
Could you possibly be any more ignorant?
I'm a white feminist who used to feel pretty defensive when claims were made about the exclusion of WoC, but having been around a few years, in both academic and non-academic feminist circles, I've seen enough of it to known that if you think white feminism doesn't have a history of exclusion and insensitivity then you're either ignorant or in serious denial.
I really could not care less what some self-important blowhards think about my level of ignorance or denial or much of anything else for that matter. But taking the “I’m right, you’re wrong, end of story” approach will fail every time. In other words, the product may indeed be fantastic but the ad campaign sucks. Telling people to ‘shut up’ is disrespectful as is asserting to people that you know what they really think, even better than they do. Even if you are correct in your arguments, it is not the best way to get people to hear your message. Of course, that assumes that the real goal is getting people to think differently. If your goal is just to get some angry shit off your chest, fine. Go for it. But do not expect for one second that any rational person is going to take you or your beliefs seriously when you come at them like that. I wish I could say I’m taken aback by the ‘you must be ignorant if you don’t see this the same way I do’ approach but it has become pretty common fodder around here. I would expect to hear that tripe when I was a wet behind the ears grad student but older, more experienced people should know better. Then again, I don’t know which you are anyway.
Thank you.
I totally agree with you that the way something is phrased is important. However, I've watched for years as WoC politely try to get mainstream feminism to take their concerns seriously, and I'm embarrassed at the general result. The kind of insensitivity and tokenism that goes on makes it perfectly clear that many white feminists are self-serving and don't give a shit about social justice unless is involves their well-being in some way. As an academic feminist I live in this environment every day, and there are multiple examples of this kind of attitude here on Feministing and elsewhere in the blogosphere.
I agree that, generally speaking, it's important to be thoughtful about the way you phrase your thoughts, but when the response you've gotten has continually been characterized by ignorance and denial, I can understand the change in tone. It's the same tone that feminists often have to take with men who just don't or won't get it, and sometimes it's the only way to be heard.
"When you're first starting out it's a good idea to shut up and listen". To women of color.
This is not a revolutionary stance.
They do know better than us what they go through in life.
And if someone doesn't think that feminism is fraught with white feminists not taking feminists of color seriously, they are wrong. Three decades of history of movement prove that. I very rarely, in fact, almost never, will say simply "you're wrong about that", but this is one thing where it's simply true.
Ahh, but if you're familiar with and sensitive to this history, that makes you a "self-important blowhard." It's the old Sarah Palin shtick of railing against being a well-informed and compassionate person. Cause, reglar ol innorant folks is the reel amerrikans.
Comparing people who feel similarly to me to Sarah Palin is REALLY not helping your case. I'm not taking low jabs at you.
I compared the attitude that was clear in Crumpet's comment about blowhards. Because apparently, in her book, being informed concerning the history of feminism makes you a "self-important blowhard." If you'll recall, this is the same attitude that Sarah Palin took toward anyone who was better informed than she was during the campaign, and it's not appealing at all. But I never compared you to anyone. I despise attitudes, not people.
I compared the attitude that was clear in Crumpet's comment about blowhards. Because apparently, in her book, being informed concerning the history of feminism makes you a "self-important blowhard." If you'll recall, this is the same attitude that Sarah Palin took toward anyone who was better informed than she was during the campaign, and it's not appealing at all. But I never compared you to anyone. I despise attitudes, not people.
I find this post extremely condescending and offensive. And before you write me off as just another white woman who "doesn't get it", I understand that western feminism has been completely white-, middle class- centric and that it's an ongoing problem. I understand that I probably don't understand that fact nearly as well as a WOC does. But labeling all white women as inherently racist and, essentially, stupid, is not acceptable. "Throws your whole little world into flux..."? I'm sorry that my upbringing makes me ignorant, maybe next time I'll just "shut the fuck up and listen" because apparently having opinions at the same time as listening and learning is just not what feminism is about. I'm not trying to downplay the tie between ending racism and ending sexism, it's a huge deal. I get it. Just don't think that calling me stupid and racist is going to make me want to dialogue with you, no matter the colour of your skin.
The point is not that all white women are inherently racist, but that all people who come from a racist culture are inherently racist, we've all been socialized that way, and it takes a lot of critical thinking, humility, sincere commitment to social justice, and acknowledging of privilege to overcome that. The immediately defensive reaction of many white women when a WoC says something like this merely proves her point a thousand times over. Nobody is attacking you here, but I encourage you to take a deep breath and a step back to think about this for a minute before declaring that you've never been racist and never will be yada, yada, yada. If you can't do this in good faith then your commitment to social justice is questionable at best and deeply hypocritical at worst.
I think about everything I say before I say it. I'm not trying to claim that I'm perfect, that I've never subconsciously stereotyped, that I'm not affected by my rural upbringing. I am. And I work hard every day to recognise that, and to honour my mixed-race family and think critically about how racism is hurting society. I don't think I'm proving anyone's point about white women by saying that I am offended when someone tells me I should just shut up because anything I try to do to help the feminist cause will only hurt WoCs. I think trying to understand other peoples' experiences and celebrating our diversity is the answer, not insinuating that an entire ethnicity is wrong or stupid for trying to contribute. Yes, the woman in the article said something wrong and ignorant. I would like to not be painted with the same brush because I am white, just as any other ethnicity does not want to be stereotyped based on what other people do. This isn't supposed to be a "poor little white girl" post, I am simply trying to explain why I was offended by the original post.
The defensiveness you're currently feeling is the exact sort of reaction I first had when presented with truths I had no previous experience in and which challenged my privilege.
It did throw my whole little world into flux.
I encourage you to take the time to figure out why you're feeling defensive, and to see what comes of it.
Maybe then you'll see where I'm coming from. Because reading through your responses, they look just like mine did, and I didn't get it then.
That's not to dismiss what you're saying, but this is a difficult thing for white women to come to grips with. I know it was for me. It takes time.
I wrote the post to challenge, because such a challenge was fruitful for me. But it took a year of shutting up and listening and examining myself to get there.
Can you imagine how fruitful dialogues with the men who get defensive about feminism would be, if they just shut up and really listened for a time?
It's the same principle.
I don't think I'm proving anyone's point about white women by saying that I am offended when someone tells me I should just shut up because anything I try to do to help the feminist cause will only hurt WoCs.
Who said that? I read Renee's post a few days ago, and I don't remember anything like that in there. I haven't read the Smith chapter since I taught Feminist Theory a couple semesters ago, but I'm reasonably sure there's nothing remotely like that in there either. Where are you getting this?
And Renee was responding to a white feminist who had approached her initially and asked her to mention the white feminists cause in a post. After Renee did, the white feminist proceeded to post an ignorant comment on Renee's blog, and Renee objected to it. That does not amount to telling white women to shut up because anything they do will hurt WoC. I think you need to re-red the things that were linked here.
I said we should shut up and listen.
Yeah, I saw that, and I agree. But I don't get where the whole "anything I try to do to help the feminist cause will only hurt WoCs" thing came from. That's a bit of a stretch.
I agree, that was one of many statements I read as defensive.
"More often than not your fight against sexism is about assuring that you have the same right to oppress as white males."
That is what I was talking about.
I'm going to thank you for the link to the article by Barbara Smith, because I found it interesting, informative, and I agree with her. I'm not arguing that we aren't raised to be racist. We are. It needs to change. We need to listen. I like to think that I do listen, frequently. Living in one of the most diverse cities in the world challenges me to examine my perspective and think critically at every turn. That's why I chose to live here almost exclusively. As I said, I'm simply offended by the tone of your posting. If you insist on thinking I'm blinded to some higher truth because of my colour, then nothing I can say will change your mind. I am going to listen. But I'm not going to shut up.
I'm not arguing that we aren't raised to be racist. We are....If you insist on thinking I'm blinded to some higher truth because of my colour, then nothing I can say will change your mind.
All I am arguing in my post is that there is a solid relationship between these two issues.
All I'm arguing is you could take more from Ms. Smith's example and do that without saying all white people are inherently stupid. Being raised in a racist society doesn't preclude ignorance, it just precludes a need to listen and learn.
I think there's a huge difference between being blinded by privilege and being inherently stupid. Everybody has blindspots; it has little or nothing to do with intelligence.
Where did I say that anyone is inherently stupid?
Well that's the impression I got from the entire post.
Well, I'm sorry for that, it was not my intent, nor is it an accurate assessment of what I believe. I don't remotely equate racism and privilege with stupidity.
I think there's an important difference between being privileged and unaware of that privilege and being racist (or sexist, or whateverist).
People with unexamined privilege are generally entirely oblivious to the difficulties faced by those who don't share their privilege. Someone has to say "No, you're totally wrong about that, here's why," and give them a chance to learn their lesson.
The burden of pointing that out shouldn't fall on the oppressed person. And it would be awesomely great if people could unpack their privilege knapsacks and get their ducks in a row before they start engaging in discourse and making asses of themselves and pissing people off. But making asses of themselves and pissing people off is part of the learning process. People learn by making mistakes.
Allies start out well meaning but clueless. They don't stay that way.
Exactly. And that this shouldn't be on the oppressed class to point out is precisely why I decided to cross post this here.
Hmm, if you don't like the tone, just ignore it and focus on the content. It's not enough to just say "I understand that I have white privilege therefore I am not racist." We need to constantly remind ourselves how our words and actions may be excluding women of color. Every one absorbs some of society's racism, what makes it ok is the constant inner-struggle to change.
I couldn't agree more.
Since you solicited the opinions of feminists of non-European backgrounds, I figured I'd offer my two pennies.
I think your heart is in the right place, but I also think your stance--coming in guns blazing on the offensive before the "White women" of the Feministing.com Community have presumably even made a move for good or ill--might be a stumbling block to engaging more people in your way of thinking. (This is, of course, presuming they don't already share your views. I know of several European-American and European feminists on this site who actively work towards fulfilling feminism's promise of diversity of ethnic origin, nationality, experience, mental health, body size, religion, etc.)
The reason I noticed your tone is because I've been dwelling a lot it recently, ever since I (gently, I hoped) pointed out a matter of privilege to a community of women that does not identify as feminist and that is leery of "political correctness" and such. Whereas several years ago (perhaps during undergrad or my first job after it) I might have also come in guns blazing, leaning on the "anger" bit of "righteous anger," I've mellowed over the years.
I now try to make my tone as palatable and conciliatory as possible, not because I am "anti-revolutionary" or a "sell-out" or because I'm worried that people will think I'm an "Angry Minority Woman" (TM), but because I just have the pragmatic goal of enlisting as many people as possible in the struggle for inclusive language and thought. Anger still has its place, but not, I believe, in trying to get more "average" people (i.e. non-government agents or large entities) on an important bandwagon. I believe choosing my words and tone carefully (especially when dealing with communities suspicious of the terms "feminist" and "inclusive" and "diverse") goes a long way toward that goal.
I haven't thought about Barbara Smith in some time, but I remember the first time I read her. A European-American teacher had assigned one of her essays that highlighted White Privilege and queer issues, and I remembered the ripples of awareness and shock it sent through the (majority Euro-American) class. I remember there being a sort of dawning "a-ha!" sentiment in that it was the first time many of these students had realized that ethnic minorities (non-immigrant African-Americans in this case) and queer folk in some ways inhabit a completely different culture than do European-Americans who are heterosexual.
I don't know how long you've been reading Barabara Smith and similar discourse, but your post reminds me of that "wow!" and "a-ha!" sentiment, and how it can be a real jump-start to people whose eyes are only now being opened. Maybe that's where your desire to forcefully spread the wisdom comes from?
As for the incident that elicited WomanistMusing's post, I understand her frustration. I don't think it's helpful for feminists to say "___ would be allowed but sexism wouldn't!" because it's a blanket statement that does not allow for nuance, and because it misunderstands what "racism" (other -isms) is to begin with.
Yes, it is true that the words "S**c* and *k**e* and *n***er* cannot be said over the radio or network television waves, whereas slut and whore often are. But, look at some other aspect of life--college admissions, for example--and the script will be flipped, so to speak. There, European-American women will usually not face Affirmative Action backlash, whereas students of non-European background may have to struggle with those perceptions quite a bit.
And we haven't even gotten into the other "isms." Fatphobia, homophobia, ageism, etc.--each has its own bugaboos that make members of the corresponding privileged section indulge their privilege and callously overlook or reject the voices of the minority group.
I think that's what Intersectionality means, or should mean: that we are each, as individuals, composed of multiple facets of identity, and that we are ever on the revoloving door of Identities and their attendant privileges.
Just as we might try to look at a text--Freud, for example--with "new eyes," to distance ourselves from the ethnocentrisms and class-centrisms and hetero-centrisms that clouded Freud's vision and our own, we should take the same pro-active approach to our activism.
For example, if a fat Puerto Rican-American woman makes a speech to her community center about fatphobia, she might pause and think, "Is the experience of fatness different for Puerto Rican women, Afr-American, African, European-American, Asian-American, Native women? For women with physical disabilities? For Men? How? And how does that inform fat AND non-fat people's experience of fatphobic culture? Maybe I should make note of these issues in my speech, and emphasize that this speech I once titled 'Fat Women and Fatphobia in America' should instead be titled 'A Puerto-Rican American woman's experience of Fatphobia.'"
The script is always flipping, and we would do well to remember that in our activism and in our own personal interactions with others.
I think the reason for my "tone" is not my "ah-ha!" moment (though I did have one, but it was over a year ago now) but that in the time since that ah-ha moment I have watched the same situation play out over and over and over again.
But I was not angry when I wrote this post, I was passionate, yes, and I was very serious about making my point.
The helping hand I offer in it is not remotely sarcastic. In my daily life I have been so lucky as to be the sympathetic and non-judgmental ear for white women who are having their own "ah-ha" moments and who have chosen me to ask questions of because I am also white. That offer of similar support in my post is completely sincere.
Also, this is a community space. I did not cross post here as an accusation to Feministing or Feministing Community, but because I felt this was an important issue and one that was worth bringing to a different audience from those who read mine or Renee's blogs. Certainly Feministing has a wider audience than at least I do, and many who probably know nothing about either of us. That was my motivation.
And the fact is, that white women who are doing this work are going to know I'm not talking about them, if one feels "accused" by my words... Well, maybe that's something they should give some thought to. Maybe their backpack isn't so fully unpacked. That might be a stumbling block, but for this moment, in this post, I made a choice to present myself this way. In other places and in other times, I'm sure I will choose another.
All said, thank you for the constructive thoughts. I am confrontational at times. I know this. It is something I struggle to keep under control when I know I am in a more sensitive situation. I suppose I think a conciliatory tone was not needed in this space, because we in feminist movement should know and should be struggling with these realities already.
I personally didn't find you sounded angry, but I could see how a self-described "White progressive" might have interpreted it as angry. Whenever we are naturally prone to defensivenes (as I believe European-Americans cannot help but be based on the institutional reality of a racism they want no part of), feelings are magnified.
In my daily life I have been so lucky as to be the sympathetic and non-judgmental ear for white women who are having their own "ah-ha" moments and who have chosen me to ask questions of because I am also white.
This is a very valuable role to play. I think it would be helpful for more people to play this role to people with similar backgrounds and experiences to their own. On the other hand, the listener has to already be invested in anti-privilege thought to "accept" your support, don't you think?
I suppose I think a conciliatory tone was not needed in this space, because we in feminist movement should know and should be struggling with these realities already.
This is certainly a different environment than, say, the online community I blundered into (and offended, sadly). But I also think that some self-described "progressives" can tend to overestimate their own powers of inclusion and awareness, and that we should tread softly when amongst presumed allies, too. But maybe I've just had the negative experience of seeing too many hetero and Euro and upper-middle "progressives" unconsciously turn away from diversity and non-Western perspectives after feeling as though they've been villainized (even when they have not been).
On the other hand, the listener has to already be invested in anti-privilege thought to "accept" your support, don't you think?
The situations where this has most often happened is in the Womens Studies classroom, so, yes, absolutely.
Reactions with those who are "progressive" but not currently working in movement have been varied outside of that sphere. But, yes, someone has to at least be emotionally invested in wanting the world to be a better place for them to really listen to, well, anyone, about this sort of topic. I have found that to be true. But what do you even do with someone who doesn't want that? I certainly don't know.
But maybe I've just had the negative experience of seeing too many hetero and Euro and upper-middle "progressives" unconsciously turn away from diversity and non-Western perspectives after feeling as though they've been villainized (even when they have not been).
To be perfectly honest I have a hard time mustering sympathy for "fauxgressives" such as that. It's arrogant to think that one is immune to the society in which one lives, and that you will have somehow magically avoided the things you are critical of in others. We've all got personal stumbling blocks to work through.
If someone really thinks themselves a progressive, they've got to be able to deal with that, or they're not really acting towards progressive goals. :\
I don't know if I quite understand the thrust of the article. Is the main point basically that the elimination of racism is inextricably linked with feminism and therefore we should make a concerted effort to understand the challenges faced by cultures other than our own when we attempt to make a difference through feminism?
Which "the article" has the point you're searching to find?
It is the first link you provided in your post.
Also I read the second link that you provided and I am wondering what the term "WOC" means. I saw it a couple of times and have no idea. I'm should it is probably something that should have been obvious to me the whole time.
Woman of Colour.
Thanks. I feel dumb now.
Don't feel dumb, it happens to everyone :)
Then yes, this: the elimination of racism is inextricably linked with feminism and therefore we should make a concerted effort to understand the challenges faced by cultures other than our own when we attempt to make a difference through feminism is one of the points she is making.
Damn inept fingers!
"is one of the points she is making." Should not be italicized.
Thank you for confirming that. There are days when I come home quite sleepy and just don't always get the point when I read things.
Really, feminists, is this how we want to respond?
Arguing about the tone comes off more condescending than the tone itself. Rather than accusing her of being condescending, why not consider why she might come off that way? Feminists get called "angry" all the time, and what's the response to that? OF COURSE WE'RE ANGRY!
Renee gets faced with white "feminists" who ask for her help, then deny her experiences and leave their own privilege unquestioned and, in fact, actually deny that it exists. These are people who should know better. Who wouldn't get a little condescending when they rant in their own blog?
If we can't forgive her for some, perhaps, overgeneralizations, we should at least criticize the content, not the presentation.
When talking about these kinds of issues, in which emotions do run high, tone/presentation is very critical. People are already going to hear "You are racist and wrong," so why exacerbate the situation by being confrontational? If the post was directed at someone who wasn't acknowledging racial privilege, it would make sense, but so out of the blue like that? And being angry and being condescending are totally different.
I wrote this post in response to something that has just happened, I'm not sure how that is "out of the blue"?
And I want to add that I wrote it specifically to other white feminist allies
"But we gotta spread the word. We have to do what we can to nip it in the bud. Because ignorant white women are hurting our sisters in movement, and making it more difficult for the rest of us to be trusted by them. Because this is our function as allies, to use our social position to point this shit out."
And I cross posted it here to call more attention to what is happening, and that we have to do our part in helping combat the attitudes like the one I was writing (and yes, angry) about.
So I'm honestly still getting blown away that people want to talk about my "tone". If you're a white feminist in solidarity with womanists like Renee, didn't what was written piss you off just as much as it did me? Why in the world do you think my "tone" is directed at YOU?
I can't read the "womanist musings" post, so I don't really know what happened. Is there a reason the site isn't working? or a way to make it work?
I don't know, the link in my post to it is working for me.
Sure, it pisses me off. But that's not the issue. The issue is how you chose to present the topic. You made a blanket statement. Before the paragraph with all the "we" and "our" you highlighted, you made a lot of "you" statements. I'm not sure how else we are supposed to interpret it as, other than directed as each of us as individuals.
I'm really not trying to further some hostility about the tone or whatever. I do think that's silly. I'm just trying to point out that being confrontational, and then defending your confrontational tone, is self-defeating. What happens is then exactly what happens. Everyone is so distracted by the tone that the issue gets buried.
Maybe I'm approaching this from a teaching philosophy, as someone who pays her way through grad teaching sociology. But it's been very helpful to me to apply those same principles to my activist work. The anti-oppression trainings I've been to as an activist go so much more smoothly with a conciliatory tone than a confrontational tone.
Being angry isn't an excuse. It's the internet. You had time to consider and edit your post.
You made a blanket statement. Before the paragraph with all the "we" and "our" you highlighted, you made a lot of "you" statements. I'm not sure how else we are supposed to interpret it as, other than directed as each of us as individuals.
I quoted a white feminist woman doing something I disagreed with, something I have done myself and something I have watched many other white feminist women do. "You".
If YOU don't do that, then that is not directed at you.
But as far as being conscious of it? Hell, that's directed right back at me too, as I've already said here.
So, we really need to put a whole bunch of qualifier's in front of things here? Here, of all places?? Feministing is a pargon of snark and generalizations in posts. We all know "who they mean" when it's men being discussed, but when that same "tone" gets directed back at us we can't take it?
I didn't intend for this post to be a nice or conciliatory "racism and feminism 101" post. It's not easing us into this discussion. It is written to other white feminists working in solidarity with women of color, struggling to figure their own racism and privilege out, who would find what that linked woman did appalling.
I'm too tired to read this whole thread, but I have to say I agree with Stephanie1989. OP, you don't know who I am, but you're assuming, because of my race, that I'm insensitive or-- hell-- racist. That in itself is prejudiced. By all means, suggest I read this. But don't insult me based on my skin color and insist I read something or else I'm a bad human being. I try to be as understanding and egalitarian as possible, just for the record. Addressing me like I'm some asshole is not going to make me even more understanding and egalitarian. It's going to make me mad and hurt. It has.
By the way, white is not the only ethnicity other than black. Probably besides the point, but just throwing it out there.
OK, I can't sleep. I read the thread. So let me clarify:
Yes, I am being defensive, as anyone would be when addressed directly ('young white feminist,' which means anyone who is young, white, and a feminist... that should be obvious, but apparently it isn't) in a condescending tone, ordered to do something, and told she is not doing enough/ hurting other women.
No, it is not beside the point to address the original tone of the post.
Now that I know who the OP is, let me address her directly:
Renee, I read your blog, and I try very hard to learn from it. But when you write stuff like this, it makes me want to turn away and never come back. There have been times when I've turned away from your blog-- when you call certain women 'pearl clutchers,' for instance. (This is an egregiously sexist term.) However, I do end up coming back to read your blog, because I really value your perspective, and I feel like I can learn a lot from you. I just don't know how many insults I can sit through to get to the intelligent things you have to say. I wish you would direct your anger at the specific people who make you angry and not lash out at entire groups. Because, yes, that is prejudiced. And it's really testing my damn patience.
Renee did not write this.
My name is whatsername, as it says on the bottom of my post.
I run my own blog, The Jaded Hippy.
I have written several posts for the Feministing Community since it's inception.
All of this can be viewed by clicking my name and looking at my profile here.
I am a young, white, middle class, womens studies feminist who is still struggling to come to terms with her own societal infused racism and the unearned privilege I have been granted because by all American standards I appear to be, and do identify as, white.
I wrote this post because I am angry at what I see many other, young white feminists do to people like Renee (as in the post I linked to), and cross posted it here as an appeal to other young white feminists who are working in solidarity with women of color to do our part to make sure we are addressing problematic issues of white privilege in our feminist communities.
I, apparently mistakenly, assumed that incredulity and anger at injustice were not foreign to this Community, and that we were capable of accepting it in each other and engaging with the meat of a topic at hand.
I'm sorry, I thought I saw someone call you Renee further up in the comments, but I guess I misread it, and then insinuated from the link that you were her. I was kinda tired.
It doesn't really matter who you are or what color your skin is, though. I sympathize with your anger, because plenty of shit gets me this riled up, too-- it's definitely not foreign to me or anyone else in this community. But addressing a broad group of people this way, talking down to them based on their skin color (yes, it's your skin color, too, but that doesn't excuse it) is simply rude and unfair. It's also simplifying the issue; privilege and learned racism are not just the problem of young white women. There's is a better way to engage in this dialogue, and, really, I agree with your basic point here. You do have something totally vital to say; this just isn't the way to say it.
It's also simplifying the issue; privilege and learned racism are not just the problem of young white women.
Nope, but the specific issue I'm addressing is not "racism", is it very specifically targeted at repeated acts of privileged behavior by white feminists.
So why not say something like, "Hey guys, I wanted to talk about how some white feminists are treating black women" Instead of YOU did this because of YOUR privilege, therefore implying that this problem is 1) more simplistic than it really is and 2) is MY fault.
I seriously would rather be discussing this than giving you etiquette lessons, so please don't think I'm trying to miss the point here.
I don't know what whastername had in mind, but if she had taken that approach, it seems to me like it would be easy for everyone to assume that it was about someone else, rather than sparking some self reflection.
Why does self-reflection have to be incited with hostility, though?
it seems to me like it would be easy for everyone to assume that it was about someone else, rather than sparking some self reflection.
Quite so!
EG, I'm still not sure how saying "This thing right here has got to stop!" is hostile towards anyone except those doing that thing.
I wish to write an eloquent reply, but alas, my brain is zombified. Really just wanted to express my support for the post. As a white, middle-class women who became aware of her privilege a while ago but still hasn't quite got rid of all the ingrained behaviour/thoughts, such posts are a great reminder and motivator. And I found your tone passionate, but not insulting at all [how could I - you'll give hugs!:)]. Barbara Smith FTW.
The hugs thing wasn't even remotely sarcastic, either. Which I'm glad to see someone recognizes, because yes, this shit is difficult to deal with. It really is.
I've only begun reading blogs written by WOC recently, thanks to Shark-Fu's posts here, but I'm really surprised by the negative reaction to this post.
What the hell would we do if a man came here and asked us all to be nicer and watch our tone? Spent all his time telling us we were being shrill instead of grappling with the uncomfortable content of our posts? Told us he didn't participate in any sexism himself, so don't go generalizing about the patriarchy and male privilege because it insulted him?
I know what we'd do, because I've seen it happen.
This is a useful inversion.
To the posters above who took offense at the original post: I have addressed tone and content alike from the perspective of an outsider, a person to whom the post was not addressed. I, like alixana, am interested in what the intended audience for this post feels about either Barbara Smith's (et al)'s work or about Womanist Musings' post expressing her reaction to the "Racism is not allowed anymore, but sexism is still promoted!" line of thinking.
What thoughts do you have about reactions like hers? Her posters?
EGhead, I'm not really talking about Renee herself, so, although I certainly appreciate your sharing of your views about her blog, I'm speaking here about the general line of thinking she set forth: that majority-feminists' SWEEPING/GENERAL comparisons between racism and sexism are harmful to minority women who, not incidentally, experience BOTH racism and sexism without relief of either.
I add the "Sweeping" qualifier because I feel, as I pointed out in my comment above, that comparisons between different --isms are merited and indeed helpful, but only when they are (1) clearly delineated to a specific situation or context, and (2) when the comparing party acknowledges that, in another context, "the script will flip" and the compared --isms reverse places in the queue (i.e. my radio slurs v. college admissions examples).
Thanks for indulging my curiosity.
Okra, to answer your question (from my perspective anyway): I DO feel that the original example set forth, about the woman written about in Womanist Musings, was being extremely ignorant. I do agree with Barbara Smith's article. I think that racism is ingrained into society at least as much as sexism, they are inextricably linked, and it's a huge problem. What I don't like is sweeping generalisations being made about white feminists. I'm obviously not against someone writing passionately about things they care about, but doing so while creating alienation and division is never going to solve any problems, as is clear from this entire comments thread. Sure, there are a lot of things I can learn. That's why I'm in school. But having someone DIRECTLY (based on the sweeping assumptions made) chastise me for how racist and ignorant I must obviously be, by someone who is practically my own age and still has things to learn as well? What if I feel the exact same way as I do now in 30 years? Am I still waiting for "my eyes to be opened" then? Or is that just my opinion at that point?
I don't make comparisons between racism and sexism, because I know that I don't understand the effects of racism like I do sexism. I also don't think it's productive to make such comparisons. It's not about who has it worse; it's how to make it better for everyone. I want to work with all kinds of people to accomplish this, and I want to hear what everyone has to say about it. But I don't want to be spoken to rudely like this.
What the hell would we do if a man came here and asked us all to be nicer and watch our tone? Spent all his time telling us we were being shrill instead of grappling with the uncomfortable content of our posts? Told us he didn't participate in any sexism himself, so don't go generalizing about the patriarchy and male privilege because it insulted him?
Yes, this!
Actually, I don't treat men that way. I try to engage allies and potential allies with respect and consideration. There wouldn't even be a reason for a man to be upset with me because I wouldn't be acting in an objectionable way to begin with. And if I was... I hope he'd call me out on it.
I think your analogy is an important one. Not only should we acknowledge that criticizing posts like this one based on tone is very similar to the way (white) men often silence (white) feminists, but we should also acknowledge the tone of the Barbara Smith piece. Many WOC are continually making efforts to open our eyes to the racism within the feminist movement, to effect positive change rather than walking away from the movement entirely (which is not to say that I blame the many who have walked away from the movement- they had and continue to have every reason to do so). But when WOC like Barbara Smith offer genuine and heartfelt examinations of racism within the feminist movement and reach out to white feminists in a caring way... we don't even notice. We're too busy arguing over the same tone we rightfully take with men who continually fail to understand sexism and their role in it.
The fact that the negative/defensive comments get 28+s compared to the 3+ or 4+ of other comments is depressing. I can see why WoC feel like mainstream blogs like feministing don't represent or even fully include them, and it's sad, but not unusual or surprising.
It is depressing.
I sincerely wish more supposed WoC/PoC allies would take a moment to consider why they feel so defensive about this post.
Also, if you are a young, white feminist who is already doing all of the things that whatshername suggests, then why are you getting bent out of shape about the tone? If it isn't about you, why try to make it about you?
The hard truth is that this shit is happening all the time, and instead of strengthening the feminist/womanist cause, it is creating huge divides where they don't need to exist.
I can't believe we are being condescending here over tone. People have been saying shit nicely for years, and nothing has come of it. It's about time people, specifically young, white feminists, got a little worked up over the way we treat our WoC/PoC allies and try to correct that.
whatshername has given us an excellent invitation to further acknowledge some serious privilege, and apparently the community here needed to hear it more than she realized!
Honestly, a few white women feeling alienated by my post isn't going to bother me.
Women of color feel that way a whole helluva lot of the time, and experiencing it myself for once was a priceless and humbling experience for me.
So, I guess I've taken the bell hooks confrontational education style, I hope it will pay off for them in the long run the way it did for me.
If not, I'm sure someone else will come along who reaches them.
But the response never ceases to surprise me.
You're trying to make us feel alienated? Like WOC feel alienated? Is that really what you're saying? Like a 'dose of your own medicine' kind of thing? Because that's ridiculously immature.
I want to be treated with respect. That is all I'm asking. Period. And that is a completely valid thing to want.
You're trying to make us feel alienated?
Respectfully, you're deliberately misinterpreting her words, which is actually quite common in areas where people are feeling threatened and defensive. She never said she wanted people to feel alienated. She said if some people felt alienated by her post then she was OK with that. Do you see the difference?
I think part of the problem is that when people are feeling threatened and defensive it's very hard for them to listen/read carefully and think critically about it before responding. This raises a lot of barriers that make it seem to me like the sort of infighting that this post represents is never going to stop, and there will never be mutual respect and a true partnership between white feminists and WoC, which is deeply disheartening.
Apparently I did misinterpret it, but it was certainly not intentional. I don't appreciate you assuming that.
And, yeah, it is hard to listen when I'm feeling defensive. Which is a huge part of the reason I would like everyone to treat everyone else with respect: so we can actually listen and talk with each other like mature human beings.
With all due respect, I think the "respect" you're asking for is more akin to handling you with kid gloves. You've got to have a thicker skin than this if you're going to deal with hard truths like the impact of whiteness on women of color. My OP? That's not half so hard hitting as stuff I've read and had to think about how I fit into that picture.
You're right - I shouldn't have assumed it was intentional, especially since I think that listening and critical thinking is really hard on topics like these.
"Also, if you are a young, white feminist who is already doing all of the things that whatshername suggests, then why are you getting bent out of shape about the tone? If it isn't about you, why try to make it about you?"
Exactly. I'm not offended. I don't think I'm more or less implicitly racist than the typical white person. Of course I'm unintentionally racist at least but I would like to think I'm better at stfu and listening than average because I realize who am I to judge what someone else has felt and experienced? I've seen people deny that racism exists at all. I've been angry about stuff and been told I'm overreacting. This is feministing. If women can't get angry here, where can they get angry? Are women only allowed to get angry about sexism even though there are women with different races, abilities, etc? I know people might reply that it's okay to get angry about specific incidents but not at YOU. But why do you (general you) make it about you? For me, the post wasn't about calling me an asshole or whatnot but a passionate reminder about racism and privilege.
Unfortunately, no tone will work with everyone. People don't like to see women be angry but if we are nice about things, people might not get how strongly we feel about something. So...we're supposed to search for that perfect tone that is strongly passionate but not offensive?
I feel defensive because I feel I am being called out based on the color of my skin rather than what I actually do/think. And called out rudely, at that.
*sigh*
If that is how you feel (and we are all entitled to our feelings) then you missed the point completely.
But it's not about you.
Wow. After a day, people are still talking about the tone of this piece and not about the real issues and conflicts? For shame feministing community, for shame. I for one would be interested in hearing any personal experiences the people of this community have had. Has anyone personally experienced alienation or tokenism within the feminist movement because of their skin colour? Have you had your concerns of racism treated as a joke, or as inconsequential when compared to sexism? And how did you deal with that? Did you feel there was another way you could voice your opinions within feminist communities or did you feel completely cut off from the feminist movement in general? I for one am keen to shut up and listen :)
Wow. After a day, people are still talking about the tone of this piece and not about the real issues and conflicts?
Unfortunately this is extremely common in the history of this discourse. Interactions between white mainstream feminists, who tend to have more of the voice and the power, and their would-be WoC allies have often followed this exact pattern. WoC and their allies begin by being polite and speaking in a modest tone. Their concerns are glossed over or tokenized. This makes them feel frustrated, so they speak up a little more and aggressively point out the ways in which their concerns are being ghettoized. Then the response from white mainstream feminists is a shocked "why are you black women so angry all the time? Stop yelling at me! You're hurting my feelings!" Thus WoC and their allies are relegated once again to the "angry black woman" stereotype, which allows us to conveniently disregard their concerns based on their "tone." And the wheel goes round and round and round...
Yes, I'm still talking about it, and I will keep coming back to this thread and talking about it because I'm not okay with the responses I'm getting. Being upset about the tone of this piece, about how I was spoken to (yes, alixana, it is about me and you and anyone) does not mean I can't also consider the actual content. The reason I'm not letting this die is because I'm not okay with being told that people are allowed to address each other this way as long as there's a legitimate point behind it. In order to make any progress in feminism, we have to treat each other with respect.
When did I refer to anyone as an angry black woman? I really don't understand why I'm being villainized for this, except to assume that this is how you all want to treat people you're trying to engage with, in which case: NOT. PRODUCTIVE.
No one is villianizing you.
Thank you for posting this, whatshername!
I've only really been exposed (at least intellectually) to the idea of white privilege for about a year now, and I really appreciate any chance to re-examine not just my thoughts and actions but the thoughts and actions of the group that I claim solidarity with, as difficult as it may be sometimes. What happened in to Renee in "Backstabbing Feminism" is disgusting, and I can't imagine how exhausting it must be to deal with this sort of thing day after day.
"What the hell would we do if a man came here and asked us all to be nicer and watch our tone? Spent all his time telling us we were being shrill instead of grappling with the uncomfortable content of our posts? Told us he didn't participate in any sexism himself, so don't go generalizing about the patriarchy and male privilege because it insulted him?"
THANK you. Tone is NOT the issue.
Glad you found it useful Gracie. :)
I did not mean to hijack the thread here, and I appreciate the more calm and understanding responses. I should probably write my own post about why I think tone is important. I do appreciate the actual point of your post, though, and I agree that understanding is important. I will continue reading blogs by WOC and trying to figure out how to be a better ally.
Good. Then start with this:
If someone offends me with racism (either unconscious or deliberate) why should I be nice while confronting them? No one has given an answer to me yet because the answer is for the accused’s comfort level, which brings me back around to the title of this post. It is a privilege to expect someone to confront you on any kind of prejudice politely! I go through every day knowing that I will be offended and there is no politeness when it happens but in return I have to be nice? I have to be polite? I have to be willing to teach you is what is really being said.Great link.
This is ridiculous. I am Hispanic and I do not agree that white "privileged" people should somehow feel ashamed bc of their privilege and somehow be apologetic all teh time bc they do not "understand" the racial experience. Is it not the whole point to strive towards equality and someday stop seeing race or gender as a determining factor? How are we going to reach that if feminists blame or point out to other feminists that they are not adequately acknowlodging their "privilege." Well, I am a Hispanic female and I get a lot of racist and sexist crap alllll the time but I still do not agree that white people have to go the "extra mile" to somehow be apologetic and aware all teh time of their "privilege." I have worked with white feminists and all of them recognize the racial problems in society. I mean, if you are white you are white, so now we are going to demonize them and make them constantly think before they speak bc god forbid they are not conscious all the time that they are privileged. This seems racist to me in a way. If "brown" and "black" people are allowed to be proud of their race, why should whites be ashamed of it?
Too much PC if u ask me. And this coming from someone from a "third-world" country, Honduras.
Where did I ask anyone to feel ashamed?
I'm not ashamed of being a white Latina cissexual female who was raised middle class.
But I know that there are parts of that identity that are privileged. And walking around ignoring that is a really good way for me to hurt others.
That doesn't mean I'm ashamed of who I am in any way.
What I'm saying in this post is that we, because of our privilege, have unique concerns we need to be aware of. That's not "going the extra mile" that's just being decent.
sorry for all the typos. I meant acknowledging*
Isn't the whole point that this woman is saying "Hey! white feminists treat WoC feminists differently, work on this?"
Yes I see your point, and I work -very- hard to overcome my inherant raceism. I don't ask stupid questions like "Hey, african american woman X, why does you hair smell differently from mine?" or any other blindly insensitive questions like that. if that -was- my question I was ask "Excuse me Ms. what kind of hair products do you use?"
I think this woman's point, and by no means do I speak for her, is just, as feminists who fight for equality, we need to understand that our langauge and sometimes actions can have just as much internalize raceism as internalized patriarchy and just as we closely watch ourselves by not saying things like "he's a fucking pussy" we should also analyze our langauge for raceisms.
Yep, you got it. :)