Over at my blog I wrote a post discussing why children of divorce, like myself, may be better at noticing the problems that our conceptions of marriage pose for every couple that is about to walk down the aisle. As an addendum to that post, here are few major things I think we should change in order to make marriage an institution that will work in the twenty-first century.
1) Stop using love as a noun. Love isn't sexual attraction, romantic infatuation or a magical moment that makes everything all better. Love is a verb, a promise to keep a commitment to the people who matter most to you--even during the moments you don't particularly like them. Feelings come and go (and can always come back). If there's one positive thing we can learn from arranged marriages, it's that people can and do learn, and relearn, to love each other when times are rough. Sometimes we just need to get past the instant gratification and being swept off our feet mindset and living happily ever after mindset. Real love is about more than just the kiss.
2) Raise the age when two people can legally consent to marriage. I'm sure many people will find fault with this but I don't think people are ready at 18 to get married. Years ago, lots of things were different. If we expect people to have time to mature and find themselves (both of which are prerequisites to a lasting, happy marriage), then we need to do what we can to prevent them from hastily tying the knot before a ripe age. This also allows more time to receive and education and save much needed money. Studies consistently show that marriages are more successful if the partners waited until they were older to commit. We also know that personality and life goals are more constant the closer one gets to 30 and that those in their late teens and early twenties are more impulsive and therefore not ready to make such a huge commitment to another person.
3) Require marriage counseling, even for purely civil services. People have a tendency to get so caught up in wedding planning that they forget to plan for the actual marriage. It helps to have an uninvolved party sit down with the couple to discuss every practical matter that could possibly come up. How well the couple is able to answer the questions presented, how often they are in agreement and the tone of their arguments when they inevitably come upon a disagreement will provide a good example of what marriage could be like. It could be the only dose of hard reality a couple gets in the months leading up to the big party and it may be the saving grace for both couples who realize that maybe they should wait a bit (whether just for a later time or for different partners)or for those will still want to marry (as there will be less surprises on the bumpy road ahead). This may seem like an obvious one to feministing readers but it is not at all uncommon for me to hear people discuss getting married (and even having children) with a "we'll just swing it and hope for the best" attitude.
4) Naturally, making gay marriage legal AND common to help further break down the stifling gender norms that so often ruin even the strongest marriages.
Any others suggestions?
Cross-posted at www.dancingbackwards.com
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Moreso than this post, I enjoyed the entry on your personal blog. You better bet that being a child of divorced parents has made me analyze marriage differently than my friends who have non-divorced parents. I attribute the fact that I'm not married yet (I'm 26, and virtually the only person I know from high school and college who isn't engaged or married) to their split - not because I'm disillusioned about it in a negative way, but because I see exactly what marriage requires to work and concluded that none of my boyfriends have passed muster.
I think my number 1 mantra is that - it doesn't get better. Which sounds odd, but stick with me for a moment. My parents divorced after 28 years of marriage. Guess what happened to all the problems they had when they were first married? Yes, they were still there 28 years later. A couple who is significantly mismatched when it comes to personalities, goals in life, etc. is still going to be mismatched a decade down the road. I broke up with my then-boyfriend when my parents divorced - I had the startling realization that although we were discussing marriage since we'd been together for 2 years and it was the next step, the severe disagreements we had about kids, finances, religion, gender roles were not going to disappear. It was only going to be downhill from there.
So, thanks to the 'rents, my outlook on marriage has changed significantly. Rather than trying to shoehorn me and a guy into holes we don't fit in just because we were supposed to hit that next step and get married, I see marriage only as a thing to do if I find someone who I do really work with. So it may not happen - and I don't really care. Far more than marriage, I'd be very happy to have a healthy and stable relationship that makes us both happy and fulfilled - and without that, what good is marriage?
And tying in with your #1, marriage and love both take WORK. My best friend is having problems with her husband, and he refuses to discuss it and says that if they both love each other, it'll all work out just fine. Which makes me smack my head against the wall in frustration, because all that attitude is doing is ignoring problems that could have solutions. Another reason my parents had the same problems 28 years later is that they were the masters at pretending problems didn't exist. 28 years of building resentment exploded in the end. It takes work and honesty and no passive-agressive bullshit.
Of course, I'm sure I'm not exactly one to speak, since I've been single for quite a while now. But I do feel I have more tools now than I did before my parents split about how to build a good relationship, and I do hope I get the chance to put them to work someday.
As an aside, re: your #2, I don't really agree with that. For one thing, I think it would be near impossible to single out one category of contracts that a person can legally enter. Secondly, all the failed marriages I've witnessed from my parents to my peers - they all entered them when they were anywhere between 21-25. It's not age that's the problem.
I mean no disrespect whatsoever, and agree with many of your suggestions. However, I'm not sure I completely agree that "children of divorce" are uniquely qualified to comment on how to create a successful marriage. It seems more logical that people that have witnessed or participated successful marriages would be more apt to do so.
I have two children, and I've already commented to my husband that I believe the best advice I could give them is to find a spouse/partner whose parents had a successful marriage/partnership. Both my husband and I have parents that have been married for 30+ years -- and both sets of parents thus create a great example for how to survive the hard times of a long marriage.
Children of parents who did not divorce have seen a couple work through problems and survive. They've seen that a relationship can survive the lows and the highs. And, most of all, they haven't been taught, by example, to run for the door at the first sign of problems.
kbz
I'm going to expand on your point and state that I believe one of the biggest problems having to do with marriage today is that it is portrayed as "happily ever after" instead of what it really is: an ongoing project. I think one of the reasons why having it helps to have a good example is that you learn what it really means to be in a lifelong partnership. You see the ups and downs, the compromises, the mistakes, the changes life brings, and the necessity of making your partner a priority.
Our society does not prepare people for marriage. We are not given healthy attitudes about sex, and we are not given realistic expectations as to how we will live together. Which of course, means that we have to rely on experience and observation in order to figure these things out. Sad, really.
"And, most of all, they haven't been taught, by example, to run for the door at the first sign of problems."
That makes it sound like kids of divorced parents have... Though I doubt that was your intention.
I'm not wholly comfortable with generalizing about how your parent's divorce affects your attitudes on marriage. It all really depends on the kind of marriage/divorce your parents had, and it can have drastically positive or negative effects in either way. For example, if a girl's parents got amicable divorced when you were 16, she might be old enough to see what problems drove them apart and learn what to avoid in her own marriage. However, if a boy's parents got divorced when he was six, he might propose marriage to the first women who said 'I love you too' in a desperate attempt to recreate his shattered family circle. Same for children of married parents--- it all depends on how conscious you are of your parent's marriage, and the amount of work they put into it. For instance, my parents got married at a young age, and they love each other very much, and are quite compatible. However, there's fundamental communication levels that they fail on, and I've made efforts to ensure this type of communication in my own relationships.
Anyway, I think your conception of marriage will be radically influenced by your parent's relationship, but divorce might not have much to do with it.
Actually, I just went and read your blog, and I understand your perspective on children of divorce a lot more. I do agree that being able to see the dissolution of a parent's marriage gives more realistic ideas on the notion of marriage. However, I do want to add that this requires an ability of analyze yourself and your parents; most of us here have that ability-- however, there's many many people who don't tend to do that. And those that don't, regardless of the state of their parent's marriage, will get sucked into romantic fantasies.
I also wanted to add that I think that you're right about how we need the ability to analyze what happened to our parents too. At first, like when I was in high school, I bought into the same chick-flick romanticism as every other girl I knew. It wasn't until the end of my senior year when I began to see the light and realize I didn't really want a boyfriend unless he was worth it, and the importance of being choosy with guys.
I do think, though, that divorce does automatically come with perspective that kids whose parents stayed married don't have. I have some very religious friends who are extremely sentimental about their future marriage, to the extent of saving their first *kiss* for their husband... they don't get the importance of evaluating a future mate at all. It's all about the romance. And I think that attitude is doomed to failure. Also, I totally agree with the making the minimum age for marriage higher. That would save a lot of people a lot of heartbreak.
I think you're right - divorce affects kids in different ways and I think that having divorced parents doesn't necessarily mean the kids will grow up with better perspective on marriage. My parents divorced when I was fairly young (six) but they continued to have custody battles for years and are still duking it out over our college funds, 12 years later. My dad married a woman who took an instant dislike to me and my mom had to go against him in court to keep me away from her.
So I think that I got enough perspective - after always being in the eye of the hurricane - to make me more choosy in relationships. I know that if my mom had stayed married to my dad, both her and I would have been a lot more messed up. I'm definitely going to be vetting my future husband like a political running mate because I don't want to put my future kids (or me) through the same shit! (On another note, it also makes me kinda hostile to ultra-religious-conservative friends who think divorce is always bad. Doubly hostile when they know my situation and continue to think this. But that's another story...)
But as you said, I don't think it necessarily affects everyone the same way it did me. My older stepsister certainly didn't get any perspective out of her parents' divorce and my mom and stepdad are worried that she's going to marry her dud of a boyfriend. With her though, her parents didn't have very many lasting problems after they split. And she lived with her mom in her teenage years, who wasn't the best model because she basically just dated whomever was interested in her at the moment. She wasn't very choosy. So it's not too surprising my stepsister ended up the same way.
I agree with your first, third, and fourth points, however, as someone who has been happily married since the age of 21 to a man I met when I was 19, I do feel slightly offended by the second item. Generally speaking, you have a point: many teens and early twenty-somethings are not yet prepared to make a lifelong commitment to another person.
However, as I have said before on other posts, people mature at different rates. We went into this with both eyes open; we knew it would be work, and we talked endlessly during the year we were engaged about our expectations, where we were willing to compromise, and how we would work together to manage the less fun aspects of our relationship like combined finances and such. We also lived together beforehand, which I feel was a very good idea. I don't deny that we have grown and changed in the last several years, but through work and perseverance we've managed to do so together, rather than allowing ourselves to grow apart. We've weathered chronic illness, devastating financial losses when his company went under, stress from my demanding grad school program, and his rocky relationship with his in-laws, and so far our marriage has only gotten stronger with time.
For us, I think the secret to success so far has been our ability to communicate. There is no sacred subject between us, we've been able to rationally and thoroughly discuss every topic from why I hate it when he wears his shoes upstairs to the details of his relationship with his ex-fiancee and why that one didn't work out.
I think KBZ has a great point in that children should have an example somewhere of a great marriage where two people are seen working through the tough times. My grandparents (married 65 years and counting!) were that example for me, and my husband had the example of his mother and step-father.
Yes, I felt like the second point was a little strong too. But I'm all for creating an atmosphere in which people are not encouraged to marry young, and women are not socialized to think of their wedding day as the most important day of their lives, and to obsess over weddings and relationships to the exclusion of all the other important milestones in their lives.
I think the emphasis should be: "know who you are, know what you want, and don't settle."
I get a little sensitive on the subject of age just because I've heard so many rude comments since I've been married, such as:
Classmate: "Ooo, was that your boyfriend you just went to lunch with?"
Me: "He used to be. Now he's my husband."
Classmate: "You're MARRIED?! Oh my god, doesn't that SUCK?!"
Me: "No...."
or
Older Family Friend: "So [my husband], you actually married her, huh?"
Husband: "Yep, we're doing great."
OFF: "Well, don't worry about it too much son, you know the first one's just for practice anyway."
I don't think of my wedding day as the greatest day of my life (THAT will be the day my thesis research gets accepted for publication! Coming soon, I hope), but I get sick and tired of people telling me my marriage won't work out, or giving me funny looks when they realize it wasn't a shotgun wedding and we're not religious people. Actually, if you'd told me 10 years ago that I'd be married at 21, I'd have laughed in your face. I always figured I'd be at least 30, if I ever did it, but then I met my best friend and 2 years later we were applying for a marriage license. Go figure.
I don't think most people are ready to get married at 18, but I certainly wouldn't make it illegal.
"2) Raise the age when two people can legally consent to marriage. I'm sure many people will find fault with this but I don't think people are ready at 18 to get married."
Well, to be frank, it's not any of your business! The government shouldn't swoop in and start controlling every aspect of citizens' lives that the people in charge think is a mistake. People should have the right to marry whenever they want (within reason. I'm not suggesting that toddlers be allowed to get maried). People mature at different ages and while it's true that some people aren't mature enough to marry at 18, some are. Some people might not be mature enough at 40! But making blanket-statement laws based on age isn't the right way to go about it. People should be able to make their own mistakes, and it's not anyone else's problem but theirs if they get married too young.
"Years ago, lots of things were different. If we expect people to have time to mature and find themselves (both of which are prerequisites to a lasting, happy marriage), then we need to do what we can to prevent them from hastily tying the knot before a ripe age. This also allows more time to receive and education and save much needed money."
Just because it is a good idea to wait on paper doesn't mean that we should force people to wait. Like I've said before, it's not anyone else's problem if they want to get married and the government shouldn't be a helicopter parent.
"We also know that personality and life goals are more constant the closer one gets to 30 and that those in their late teens and early twenties are more impulsive and therefore not ready to make such a huge commitment to another person." No, we don't. Who could be the judge of "ready"? Not all 18 year olds are the same, just as not all women are the same, or not all people of X religion are the same. Treating them like they are the same, and like they're second class citizens, is something I hope our society will 'grow' out of.
"3) Require marriage counseling, even for purely civil services. People have a tendency to get so caught up in wedding planning that they forget to plan for the actual marriage. It helps to have an uninvolved party sit down with the couple to discuss every practical matter that could possibly come up. "
It probably could help, and I think making counseling more available would be good, but requiring people to have marriage counseling is too far over the line IMO.
"This may seem like an obvious one to feministing readers but it is not at all uncommon for me to hear people discuss getting married (and even having children) with a "we'll just swing it and hope for the best" attitude." Sometimes that attitude works. The message I'm getting at is that all people are different and thus mature at a different rate and work differently. Forcing all people to adopt X mentality before getting married isn't a good idea.
Um, pretty sure you can't FORCE people to go through marriage counseling. It's a good idea, sure, but it's not for everyone.
People have to follow all sorts of regulations when it comes to government. Look at student aid, or state welfare programs.
I don't see why there couldn't be a requirement that you attend so many hours of counseling and show proof of said counseling before you can get the marriage license.
(Whether or not its a good idea... That's another issue. I don't think it's an outright bad idea; but I do wonder what issues would come up with implementation.)
Oh, don't get me wrong, it is POSSIBLE to force people, but I consider it a rights and privacy violation.
It would be a huge rights and privacy violation, and also a big waste of taxpayer money.
I don't like the idea of being required to attend marriage counseling or having to wait until 30 to get married.
I'm a "child of divorce" my parents got married at 27, didn't me until 34 or my brother until 39. And they had years of marriage counseling. None of this mattered, it was an awful, abusive marriage and a messy, expensive divorce.
Some people never figure out how to have a healthy relationship for whatever reason. Age has nothing to with it.
I agree wholeheartedly with #4 and #1, but, frankly, #2 & #3 are insulting. I'm a child of divorced parents, and guess what? I'll be getting married in about six weeks, so I find this entire post condescending and presumptuous.
#2 - Seriously? I don't even know exactly how to explain to you how wrong this is. Honestly.
#3 - Saying "everybody should be forced into marriage counseling" is the same as saying "women who want abortions should be forced fed information about fetuses and pregnancy." The underlying message is that we're too darn stupid to know what's good for us. Optional marriage counseling? Brilliant! Mandatory? Insulting!
In Texas, they will waive the fee for getting a marriage license if you take a marriage class. Me and my fiance are actually considering it (if it's available in our county) because the fee isn't exactly cheap. Do we need it? Not really because we've got great communication and we're compatible on everything from having children to food. Sure, we have our issues, but who doesn't? Then again, we're also adults who are entitled to live our lives as we see fit.
I totally agree. You hit the nail right on the head with your response to number three. It's such a common criticism of pro-lifers that they assume they know what's best for the mother when it's really not their [anyone else's] business. And even though Feministing isn't all pro-choice, I think that if you (FNCasamento) agree that women shouldn't have to be 'educated' to have an abortion because they know the decision they're making and we shouldn't think that they are foolish or ill-informed (like some would have people believe), you can't turn around and say that people who want to get married should have to be 'educated' about marriage because they don't know what they're getting into and they're ill informed and foolish without sounding like a hypocrite (Whew, that was a run-on). Besides, what would 'marriage counseling' be? I have a bad feeling that if people tried to implement it, we might just get the same old heteronormative stereotypes about a traditional family, which is just not something people should be force-fed.
I've just realized that my main bone to pick with your post is the assumption that you (we) know what's best for others and should force that on people. Isn't that what the feminist movement is all against? Tradition forcing its stereotypical gender-roles on us because it's better that men be the breadwinner/we're the weaker sex/etc? Just because you're talking about 18 year olds and people who want to get married doesn't mean you're pushing your idea of what's good and what's not on others any less than people who think women shouldn't work. (For the record, I'm not saying that your number 4 is pushing the 'gay agenda' or anything on others. I think the difference lies in that it's not infringing on anyone's rights if we legalize same sex marriage but it is if we raise the marrying age/require counseling).
I agree with Demimonde about points 2 and 3. Encouraging people to wait to get married and receive counseling is all well and good, but requiring it is going too far.
Also, imagine how useless marriage counselling would be if neither party wanted to be there. The vast majority of couples are happy with each other when they're getting married, so they'd feel its a waste of time and pretty much just sit there waiting for it to be over. I'd be very insulted if you told me I had to go to marriage counselling-- like I'm not an adult who can decide these things for myself? It would be a big waste of time and money. Let people go to counselling when they need it and at least one of them wants to be there.
The marriage counselling thing might be the wrong phrase- marriage training might be a better phrase.
When I got married, it was a requirement for our religion that we met up with a trained married couple to talk about the sort of issues you face in marriage- it was fairly basic but they said you would be suprised how many couples came to them excited about their wedding, but with no idea what they wanted from their marriage. They'd seen disagreements from "well I know you SAID no kids but come on I'm sure you'll want them eventually" through to "There is no way in hell your mother is living with us".
I don't think it's an idea that can be enforced legally by the state, but an option would be good- "You can go and talk to these people who have made it work and see what it takes. It's a really good idea" sort of thing, rather than a mandated thing.
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