I'm going to get very personal and so I hope that everyone can be gentle if they are going to criticize me.
I've always been passionate about sex I love it, I love talking about it, doing and everything. It is a huge aspect of myself and I masturbate all the time (sorry if that's TMI.) have always had a high sex drive and I like to fuck often, not abnormally often, but everyday or every other day or whatever. I've had 2 serious boyfriends before my current one and that's exactly what we did and I never had many complaints, and I was satisfied.
Eric* was a virgin when I met him, I was his first girlfriend. We rarely had sex in the first couple years of our relationship. I always wanted to, but he always turned me down. He said that he was tired, he said he wasn't in the mood, there was always some reason. When we did have sex, it was okay, but not amazingly fantastic or anything.
I began to get frustrated and I started to wonder why he always said no to me. So one day I confronted him about it and he got really defensive, but he eventually just told me that he "had a low sex drive."
So I tried to let it go, I tried to rationalize that it had nothing to do with me, and that he is the one with the problems. It still took a toll on my self esteem and I felt like he didn't think I was sexy or pretty or whatever else and I have never felt that way about myself. I got resentful and began wondering if he was cheating on me (which is so not his character.)
So one day I was on his laptop and I were searching for something and his history popped up and I saw his porn sites. He had looked at a shit ton of porn, everyday that was recorded on his history. No weird porn, just regular misogynistic porn, but porn none the less. I saw it and started bawling my eyes out because I felt so replaced and I felt and not good enough for him. He told me that he had a "low sex drive" but apparently he had a very high one, just not for his own fucking girlfriend. I understood completely why he looked at it, it just really fucked with my head that he could neglect our sex life, but continue all of his fun porny times.
We fought about it. And fought. And fought. (we never fight btw.) It took a lot of emotional break downs and his own confessions of looking at porn since he was 14, and being a lonely teenager in his bedroom jackin it to all the porn to get over it. I told him that I don’t think he should look at porn anymore because it seems to have a negative affect on him and our relationship, and so he agreed. It took a really long time for him to kick his habit and for us to rebuild that trust and that sexuality between us.
BUT, I seriously still cannot get over it. I still feel like our sex life never recovered from it, not that it was ever amazing from the beginning but it WRECKED havoc on my sex drive for him. Absolutely killed it. Now, he wants it as much as I used to want it, but I don't want it anymore. The weird part is that we have the most amazing, loving, respectful and feminist relationship I've ever had and I'm incredibly happy, I just can't stop obsessing over our broken ass sex life. I want it to be normal but I'm less sexually attracted to him now then ever. Is it enough to break up over? Or should I just settle for having this sex life forever?
Also, what kind of sex problems have you had that are related or not related to porn? I need my feminists right now, give me your feministy advice.
Love, Sarah
*name changed.
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It seems to me that the problem here had more to do with him not wanting to have sex with you, than with porn. Its true that its stereotypically unusual for a man to have a lower sex drive, but I don't know if its really that rare (anyone know a study on that?).
All I can say is that if you reverse the genders all of a sudden there's nothing wrong here. Its quite common for a woman to have a lower sex drive than her boyfriend, and to refuse sex most of the time. Its also common for her to refuse intercourse but still want to use her vibrator-- its easier, cleaner, quicker, no worry about pain if you don't do enough foreplay, etc.
Lots of people build habits of masturbation when they're single. Then when you get in a relationship you don't necessarily want to stop those habits. It can be relaxing in private in a different way than sex with someone else is. I don't think there's anything wrong with continuing to masturbate when in a relationship.
So I can see the issue here is that he maybe lied to you (I say maybe because I think one CAN have a low drive for intercourse but still want to do other sexual things), and that he looks at porn when refusing to have sex with you. Have you talked to him about why that is? There are a lot of possibilities. Is he more attracted to the women in porn? That's probably what you're worried about. On the other hand, maybe he just prefers to make himself come quickly and move on to other things. Would he prefer to look at porn of you? Would he prefer for you to do a sexy striptease while he masturbates, or would he prefer internet porn? When does he do this, is it when you're gone or asleep? Maybe you tend to get horny at different times of day than each other.
I dunno, I guess I'm saying I'm not an expert but it seems to me that there are lots of possibilities here and some of them aren't so bad.
Also, are you upset that he looked at porn, period? Some women have issues with this. Or are you only upset that he looked at porn while hiding it from you and telling you he wasn't horny? I think the latter is fair but the former might indicate some other issues to think about.
I don't know. I've had male friends who admitted that it's easier to just jack off to porn than to sleep with their girlfriends, and that they prefer the "variety" in porn because they've been so used to a different girl every day since they were in their early teens. So I think in this case it may have been that the porn just didn't leave much of his sexual energy for her.
That's a possibility, and its definitely something they should talk about. If he's masturbating so much when she's not home that he's sick of it when she gets home, and that's how it is every day, that's a problem.
That bothers me a lot. It makes me feel like there's no way that he can possibly "schedule me in" or something. you know? Like there is no "us" it's just a "me" or "you".
"Sarah",
Think about it this way.
Porn has been there for him since he was 14. Porn never said no, porn was always there and satisfied his sexual needs exactly the way he needed them satisfied.
Apparently every other woman before you turned him down - so in his life prior to you, porn was his sex partner, and never humiliated him or made him feel bad.
Realistically, I suspect he just told you that he's never going to look at porn again just to shut you up.
He'll probably just learn to hide it better - to erase his history before he logs off, to password protect the stuff on his hard drive, to leave the porn off the laptop and put it on a zip drive ect.
The bottom line is, like far too many women, you are personalizing this.
It's not about you, and he doesn't love you any less just because his relationship with porn predates his relationship with you.
It's just that sex with a real woman is a hell of a lot harder, and in many ways a whole lot less satisfying, than masturbating solo to porn is.
He only has to satisfy himself when he's dealing with porn - with you, he has to worry about satisfying you, or if you'll get offended if his sexual fantasies aren't "normal" enough (whatever the hell that even means) for your tastes.
Ultimatums don't work with guys who have had long term relationships with porn, ESPECIALLY guys who have had little success with real life women but years of successful daily experiences with porn.
Either you can accept his porn use, or you can emotionally blackmail him into "not using porn" (and spend the rest of your relationship as an amateur private detective snooping on his computer to find the password-protected porn stash) or you can find a guy who's had lots of real world sexual success with women from an early age who never got seriously into heavy long term daily porn use.
Unfortunately, that's how it is.
I hate to be the one to have to tell you, "Sarah" - I'm not trying to insult you or hurt your feelings or make you any more upset than you are, I'm just giving you my opinion, based on my life experiences and the facts you recounted in your post.
Do you really think that a guy who's had lots of success with women will look at porn less? I wonder.
Also personally I'd rather be with a guy who took real life sex seriously and only slept with someone he really loved, and masturbated to porn, than a guy who slept around a lot but didn't look at porn.
The problem is, guys who don't get a lot of real world sex and who use porn as a substitute tend to have problems when it comes to real world sexual relationships with women.
Having mutually satisfactory sex is very difficult, a whole hell of a lot harder than masturbation.
The guy who has lots of sex with lots of women has a great deal of experience, he knows what he's doing and can feel confident in bed.
The man who never has sex with women and only masturbates is very not confident in bed - after a certain point, he might actually AVOID real world sex and stick to porn because he doesn't want to screw up and get humiliated - ESPECIALLY if he's with a woman he actually is in love with.
I totally disagree with most of your points.
1. If he would rather masturbate to porn than have sex with this GF (who he supposedly loved) then there is a BIG problem. To me, that is the same as cheating on her and certainly it IS cheating her.
2. to dovetail on #1 above, if he is happier using porn than having sex with her, IT IS PERSONAL.
3. If he is indeed lying about his use of porn or anything else for that matter, she should dump him. You can't have a loving, trusting relationship with a LIAR.
4. If he would use porn because it's easier and he doesn't have to worry about satisying her, he's a selfish bastard.
5. There are certainly more than 2 choices about what Sarah can choose to do. Despite your synopsis, there are some guys out there (with either limited or more extensive sexual experience with women) who are not addicted to porn.
It seems to me the guy already proved he can't be trusted by lying to her about his sex drive. He also proved he doesn't care much about her needs. He only changed his ways (allegedly) because she found out what he was doing.
As someone else said, she should not settle for someone that does not satisfy her emotionally and sexually.
Agree with CaroJ and would like to add: how dare you make Sarah feel like SHE is the one with the problem? "Emotional blackmail?!" Please.
"Now, he wants it as much as I used to want it, but I don't want it anymore." How is that anybody's problem but hers?
She's the one who can't get over being mad at him. He's doing his best to comply with her wishes -- the text says he wants sex with her all the time now, and it implies he isn't looking at porn anymore -- and that still just isn't good enough for her. One wonders if he has been feeling inadequate since early on, and went into retreat? He entered this relationship as a virgin, in other words inexperienced in the extreme, and the sex is described as kind of lackluster. Might he have gotten the impression he isn't as good as Sarah expects?
Maybe that's a factor, maybe it isn't. (Even if it is, good luck getting him to admit to it. As awful as feeling not pretty is to a woman, it's equally devastating for a man to feel he is not virile enough; and it's also the fear that dares not speak its name aloud.) It's worth considering, at least. If it turns out it's about his feelings about himself, it's pretty clear it has nothing to do with how sexy or unsexy he thinks Sarah is, which is apparently what she is having trouble forgiving.
Sarah, you don't have to settle for this forever. But you will have to get over the feelings of unsexyness in your own head.
I don't think looking at porn at all counts as cheating. Most adults use porn, written or visual (women included-- they just tend to call it erotica).
There are other things in the original post that are worrying, but porn and masturbating in and of themselves are part of a normal healthy sex life.
Did you notice the original poster said she masturbates all the time? Does that count as cheating on her boyfriend?
I think what troubled me most about the post was:
"I felt like he didn't think I was sexy or pretty or whatever else and I have never felt that way about myself. I got resentful and began wondering if he was cheating on me (which is so not his character.)"
Why wasn't the problem of feeling unsexy, resentful and suspecting he was cheating addressed BEFORE the porn was discovered. It should have been discussed with or without finding sexy pictures of women.
The cycle of silence is beginning again since the poster wonders "should I just settle for having this sex life forever."
No, you shouldn't. You shouldn't have settled for it in the first place. But getting your sex life where you want to get it, with both of you being comfortable is going to take hard work. I don't know if you want to even try it or if it's better off if you should break up. But it seems there's things that remained unsaid between both of you which caused much trouble and continue to trouble your love life.
Apparently every other woman before you turned him down - so in his life prior to you, porn was his sex partner, and never humiliated him or made him feel bad.
The bottom line is, like far too many women, you are personalizing this.
Why is it that when men are rejected by absolute strangers it's humiliation, but when women are rejected by their boyfriends and husbands, we are taking it personally?
That's some fancy logic there. How about this. People are responsible for their own behavior. I look at it like having an alcohol problem. Some people just can't handle booze, and some people can't handle porn. When your relationship is being affected that's time to take a look at what your priorities are.
If people would rather jerk it to a movie than fuck, I have no problem. Hell, there are already too many babies in the world. But fellas (and gals) please warn your prospective partners before you get involved and drag people into that mess.
I don't understand this sexual entitlement "have it all" mentality these days. Most people are really damn lucky to meet someone who puts up with their bullshit and with whom they can share some good times; yet, they'll throw it away in a second.
Damn, I meant to italicize the last part of GB's quote in my original comment
@GB: The bottom line is, like far too many women, you are personalizing this.
But the thing his, he WASN'T "rejecting" her - he just finds masturbating to porn a whole lot easier than having sex with her, especially since he's a lot less experienced than her sexually, and he probably felt embarrassed that he didn't know what he was doing.
It really had nothing to do with her - and a whole lot to do with his lack of success with women before he met her, and with the fact that masturbating to porn was his only successful and fulfilling sexual outlet before he met her.
That's some fancy semantics-juggling there, chief. You know what? Maybe it was just him and Ol' Rusty back when he was fourteen, but that was then and this is now and if he wants this or any relationship to work, he's gonna have to do that in the here and now. It's not his current girlfriend's fault he had a crappy time in high school. Hell, we all did.
And I'll point out something else, too, not that I think the OP is probably paying too much attention to you by now: but whenever a person tells someone else that their feelings are invalid, whenever someone tries to make someone else feel illegitimate and small, that person's got an agenda. Just what are you trying to sell, Mr. Butler?
Um, Gregory? If words like "too tired" or "not in the mood" were being exchanged, that pretty strongly implies that she was asking for sex, and he was denying her request. That sounds a lot like "rejection" to me.
Now, it is entirely possible that his reason did indeed have to do with feeling embarassed, or inadequate, or whatever, as you suggest. Maybe the porn was an addiction, and was causing the neglect, or maybe there is something else more fundamental in the relationship that was putting him off, and the porn was just incidental. We here in the peanut gallery may never know that. But it is vital that he and Sarah uncover the real reason. Otherwise they are just treating symptoms, not causes.
It is pretty clear that Sarah has not reached peace with the situation yet. It isn't clear whether she still feels undesirable, or she's outraged and disgusted that he's someone who would use porn (never mind that he's given it up, the damage is done), or something else entirely. If things are going to work out, Sarah will need to figure out why she is still upset with him, despite how far he has come.
Agreed completely!!
"I don't understand this sexual entitlement "have it all" mentality these days. Most people are really damn lucky to meet someone who puts up with their bullshit and with whom they can share some good times; yet, they'll throw it away in a second."
I would never settle if I was unhappy. I think "settle" is Sarah's key word. "Settling" leads to resentment, and no one should be in a romantic relationship where there's resentment.
I think that there are some flaws that a romantic partner can put up with, and some s/he can't. And that's for the partners to decide which flaws they can and can't accept.
And I'm tired of hearing people talk about "throwing a relationship away." When you break up with someone, you're not just throwing that relationship away. You're changing it, and usually changing it for the better. If my SO isn't making me happy, then I shouldn't want to be with him, and why would he want to be with me? It's just bad news when people get wrapped up in this "together forever" fantasy. It's just not realistic for most of your romantic relationships. After all, how many SO's will you have in a lifetime (probably more than one), and how many will you be with "forever" (one, if you're lucky)?
I think the bottom line is, Sarah, are you happy with your relationship at least 95% of the time?
I would never settle if I was unhappy. I think "settle" is Sarah's key word. "Settling" leads to resentment, and no one should be in a romantic relationship where there's resentment.
I actually agree! I'm advocating for people to be as honest as possible in the beginning (understanding of course that people change and shit happens) so that people don't get to a point where they feel like they have to settle or to trash an otherwise good relationship.
In the OP's case, her experiences are as valid as his. But the difference is that she went into the relationship with some missing information that seems to have only now surfaced.
I do agree with you on the issue of ultimatums, namely, that forcing people with whom one is sexually active into or out of sexual situations/kinks/orientations is an exploitation of that sexual relationship for the purpose of one's own emotional fulfillment.
However, I wouldn't agree that there is something wrong with "Sarah" personalizing the subject. This is because the subject feels personal to her, meaning that it effects her life profoundly, meaning that it is, by fact, personal to her. Further, if she ever wants to be able to evaluate the subject without having personal feelings then she has to evaluate the structure of the subject in an open and painfully truthful forum.
Lastly, I didn't think I would have to state this on a feminist forum, but the phrase "the bottom line is, like far too many women, you are personalizing this." is a sexist statement. Why? let's go over this. Sexism is a form of prejudice. Prejudice is a prejudgment of a group of people used for the purpose of creating a system of privilege and disadvantage.
Women, who are personally effected by men's sexual habits, will never be able to assess this subject if they are constantly dismissed as overly "personalizing" or emotionalizing a subject. Your dismissal wards off the possibility for her, as well as other women, to do this important re-evaluation of pornography and its function in society.
I had a sorta similar issue with my boyfriend. He had a negative relationship with porn, and it definitely intruded on our sex life. He had been made to feel ashamed of his sexual needs and desires both by his mom (who caught him with porn as a teenager) and by past girlfriends.
We were able to get over it by having a series of really open and honest talks. And I always gave him the opportunity to tell me that something was bothering him but he needed some time to sort it out, which has been a lifesaver more than once honestly.
He still enjoys time with porn, but knows that I openly accept it and won't use it against him. I also know that he views it as something totally different than time he spends with me. We still have an above average sex life with each other. Your situation seems different so I'm not sure if my porn experience helps.
Occasionally we still run into a hiccup in the bedroom, especially as we continue to explore each others sexualities together, but every conversation we have about it just makes us more intimate in other ways and that has been great. Further developing intimacy that has nothing to do with sex has really helped us as a couple.
I guess the point of this story is that having conversations about what is upsetting you about the porn situation and creating a place where both you and him can be totally honest may be the best way out of this mess. If you can't establish that place I think this relationship may be doomed.
You 100% should not "settle" for a relationship that doesn't do it for you both sexually and emotionally.
Same with my boyfriend. He lived in a very anti-sex anti-masturbation household and one time his mom walked in and made him feel like a filthy, disgusting human being for it. Which is probably partly why he was so ashamed of his porn, because he might have thought my being upset at his excessive porn usage=upset at him masturbating which is not the same thing.
The first time I discovered my husband masturbated to porn I cried. I made a scene. I screamed.
I had been taught that people in a relationship don't need porn. The other, real person should be enough for you.
However, he told me that masturbation and porno was different than sex with me. It was about time with himself. About not having to please a partner, etc.
I asked him if I was a ugly because I didn't look like the women in the porn and he said he thought I was beautiful, but that it wouldn't matter if I looked like them, he would still go looking for porn on occasion.
The thing is, I don't know why I was so angry. It's not like I have not masturbated even when my husband was in the living room and I could have just gone and dragged him to the bedroom. But somehow when he did it, it was wrong and when I did it was alright. I think it's because I didn't use visual porn. I wasn't jacking off to pictures of someone else.
It took me a while to let it go and understand I wasn't being betrayed. It wasn't about me.
Since then we talk more openly about sex, which was really good, and are more honest.
You have to be honest with yourself. If you can't get over the past the foundation of your relationship is doomed.
I also think promising to never look at porn again is unrealistic and probably not very positive. Plus, the brain is the sexiest organ. You don't need pics to jack off. I think the issue here was disparate sex drives and expectations.
I think what worries me most about this story is that you said the sex that you do have isn't that good. What's not good about it? That seems like more of an issue than anything else mentioned.
He looks at porn? So what. You don't have sex that often? Again, very common as relationships go on. But you've never had great sex with each other? Something should be done about that.
I think you nailed it. Sex isn't fantastic all the time and he was sexually unexperienced, but if sex was never good ... that's an issue.
You know, there's workshops for men about this. Few men (and women, but more often the men) will admit they don't know how to make love. The thing rub the clit so hard you almost burn it off is good enough.
But sex classes can get men from stopping feeled ashamed, learning new techniques and exploring their sexuality. Maybe what you both need is some sex classes. Seriously.
Also, you should plan some play time. Not just "oh, we'll have sex whenever." Make some time for sexy dates and sexy time. Maybe he likes porn because the women are dressed up a certain way. Maybe you both can put on costume and roleplay a scenario one time a way. Or play a naughty game. Or even watch some porn together.
Make sex an important part of your life. Don't just sweep it under the rug and hope to God it gets better one day.
There are lots of fun things you can try. Do you like using a vibrator? Try bringing that into sex together. (I really like those vibrating rings that go around the guy so its in the right place while you are having sex, or you can use a normal one during foreplay).
Also, I know people always talk about foreplay which implies it has to go before sex, but its also fun to do sexual things that don't necessarily lead to intercourse.
I've never been to a class but it seems like a lot of people might not like that on the grounds of awkwardness-- but there are lots of books about good sex. Lots of ideas to try and things to talk about.
I used to be very sheltered and immature about sex. In high school I thought masturbation was bad (and only something guys could do), being turned on by light bondage was bad, sex was mainly only enjoyable for men, etc etc. We had comprehensive sex ed in the sense that we learned about condoms and STDs, but I knew next to nothing about the actual mechanics of sex. (I'm not sure when I figured out that you thrust in and out more than once).
My college had a really good human sexuality class. I never actually took it, but when all my friends were taking it I went along to some of the lectures and I read the entire textbook. I also researched online and other books and so on... the result is that I was rather book smart about sex before I ever tried it. It worked out pretty well.
Anyway, I honestly wouldn't get hung up on him masturbating or looking at porn. That's normal, and I don't think its fair or realistic to ask him not to. What you need to do is not worry about the porn, but do address the issues about you not having good sex together.
I don't know what's not so great about it.
I think that from the beginning there has been problems with our sex life, so a lot of the time I'm too insecure, or too in my head thinking about shit to just enjoy it.
Sometimes it's been really good, but it was far and few between, and also it was before this whole thing started.
While I will accept that men like looking at pictures they have been made to believe, or decided for themselves, are sexy, I will not believe that men need a pictures or video of a woman to beat it. Individuals, man or woman, may get off better that way. But men are not born needing images of countless female strangers to beat it.
I have this issue with my boyfriend looking at porn (he doesn't, btw.) I feel torn, I feel were he to I should accept that sometimes he just wants to please himself, not to mention we live two hours away from each other at our separate schools. However, I can't get over why he would not be able to either masturbate to images of me or thoughts of me. I do it to thoughts of him only all the time. So I wonder, why should he need to see images of hundreds of women he will never meet to be turned on enough to masturbate?
I kind of ranted a little bit, so back to helping you... I think you need to have an extensive talk with him about how you feel, and ask him how he would feel if you looked at countless images of men and refused to have with him because "you had a low sex drive." Let him know that it is really hard for you, have a crying fest with him (if you are both comfortable, it's a great emotional relief for me and my guy), and decide together if you can both continue the relationship. I may be the minority, but I think there is no reason that you should force yourself to be okay with him looking at porn. I hope this helps!
Most people don't want to give explicit photos of themselves to their boyfriends, what with the age of photos getting out on the internet and all.
Of course people don't NEED photos, but I don't see a substantial difference between fantasising about something and looking at photos of something to help along the fantasies. And while obviously people masturbated before cameras were invented, once you're used to using porn it can be hard not to.
Anyway, I've read in many places that most people don't ONLY masturbate to thoughts of their current partner. Some people might but its perfectly normal not to. What do you think about when you daydream, or drift off to sleep? Do you only think about your boyfriend all the time? You can't control people's thoughts, and trying to force yourself to only masturbate to one thought when it isn't a turnon at the moment is likely to cause negative associations with that thought.
Now, I'm in a bit of a different boat because while I'm totally aware of and ok with my boyfriend looking at porn, I'm the one with the lower sex drive, so its not like he's looking at porn rather than having sex with me. I think if he consistently turned me down in favor of porn I'd be worried about that. I think its ok to do it occasionally, like if you're tired or you're not in the mood at the same time or whatever, but consistently choosing porn over your significant other is an issue for sure. But the porn itself is not the problem, the problem is not wanting to have sex with your SO.
Sometimes I'd rather use a vibrator by myself than have sex. Because I can do it easily, quickly, cleanly. Sex takes longer, is messier, is more work, etc. Sometimes I'm tired and I just want to take care of myself quickly and go on to something else. And I don't always think about my boyfriend when I do it (although I don't think about anyone else specific-- just general scenarios). But if I did that and NEVER wanted to have sex with my boyfriend, that would be an issue.
Just like, its normal for someone to want to spend time away from their SO, but if they NEVER want to be with their SO that's a serious issue.
So, I think its a problem if the OP's boyfriend doesn't want to have sex with her and the sex they do have isn't very good. But I don't think its good for people to use that to say that looking at porn is always a problem.
(Also, you live two hours away from your boyfriend... do you think its possible that he does look at porn and doesn't want to tell you because he knows you'll be upset? Every guy I've ever talked to has said categorically that if a guy says he never ever looks at porn, he's lying.)
"...(although I don't think about anyone else specific-- just general scenarios)."
It is worth noting that pictures are the equivalent of "general scenarios."
It's not like we know these people.
(MissKittyFantastico, I realize you already know that. You just happened to write the phrase that sparked the thought.)
It's amazing you are on a feminist website. Given the absolute misogyny of porn there is no way that it would not impact their relationship in other ways. There is no way that a decent guy who respected women would want to see women treated as they are in porn. If any guy claims that he can separate it it just means he has a massive Madonna/whore complex.
"It's amazing you are on a feminist website. Given the absolute misogyny of porn there is no way that it would not impact their relationship in other ways. There is no way that a decent guy who respected women would want to see women treated as they are in porn. If any guy claims that he can separate it it just means he has a massive Madonna/whore complex."
Please tell me more about the way I think...
Really though, thanks for letting me know I'm a horrible person, I never would have realized it had you not stepped in.
I read study a long time ago which explained that men fantasize more often to visual images and women to written words. So while men may not *need* a picture, they may find it easier or more pleasurable.
I don't think a man or a woman *needs* a picture to get off (or erotic writing) but pornographic images are not new. Before we had cameras, we had paintings. I remember going to an exhibit about erotic 18th century art where a seemingly innocent powder box concealed pictures of naked men and women having sex. A photo, video, picture or hell, even a mosaic from Pompei, merely helps or enhances the imagination.
Also, do you *only* masturbate to thoughts of your loved one? Should you? Is it bad to fantasize about other people? I think not. If I like to flip open a novel about daring, dashing Captain Pirate it's not because my husband is ugly and unattractive, I just like to slip into a fantasy every once in a while.
I don't do *everything* with my husband. I go shop, chat and eat with other people. We are not bound at the hip. So I don't think we are bound always in our fantasy sex lives. Sometimes I like to do stuff with other people in my head. At the end of the day I am faithful to my partner, we have a good sex life. No harm in it.
Personally, I think it would bother me if I or my boyfriend were fantasizing about a specific person we knew in real life, like a classmate, because that could potentially lead to real life jealousy. But an actor from a movie, a photo on the internet, a story about a nonexistent person? Those don't bother me at all.
This is probably not typical, but I'll fantasize about people I know (or knew) in real life. But I won't fantasize about people I'm interested in (relationship-wise), as I don't want it to affect how I see them and interact with them. This includes my girlfriend, for pretty much the same reasons, even though we're living together and have an active sex life.
You're right, nobody "needs" porn - just like nobody needs ice cream...but that doesn't mean that people don't WANT those things!
A lot of guys might want the fantasy of variety - but they don't want to sleep with a whole bunch of women in real life. So they fantasize about porn, and look at lots of pictures of lots of different women...but when it comes to real-world sex, they only do it with the woman they are actually in a relationship with.
And for some guys - they might have sexual fantasies that they would NEVER actually do with a woman they love (or with any real life person) but they feel safe fantasizing about those things with pictures of nude models.
Thank you for your response! It really does help, you always have good comments.
I actually did bring up what you said a lonngg time ago when this fiasco first started. (about the pictures of hot guys and then me rejecting him) But of course, he said he'd be okay with it. (Surprising? no.)
Sorry I'm posting so much. This is something I've thought about a lot before. I used to feel like it was really wrong and dirty of me to read erotica or look at sexy images (I've never been into hardcore porn, but I like what they call porn for women). I used to feel ashamed of it, when I was younger. But as I've gotten older I've realized its not a bad thing. It has helped me get to know my body and my turnons, which has helped me have better sex with my boyfriend. For a long time I had no sex drive at all, and when I'd go on dates I just wouldn't feel anything. Then I slowly got into it on my own, and started to understand why sex would feel good and why people would want to do it. (Yes, I was a late bloomer in that way).
I think guys are made to feel ashamed of porn and masturbation more than they should be. Depending on where and how they're raised, most of them expect that they'll have to keep it secret because they expect their girlfriends to react badly, be hurt and upset, call it cheating, etc. So they lie about it instinctively, when maybe it would be better if they said "yes, I do look at porn but before you get upset about it, let's talk about it."
When I hear about a girl getting upset that her boyfriend looks at porn, I think about how I'd feel if my boyfriend was jealous of me owning a vibrator. It isn't healthy. So that's why I'm getting a little defensive here of porn in general and the right to masturbate even when in a relationship.
(However, as I said above, there are other things in the original post that are worrying. I'm not defending her boyfriend specifically.)
I agree that maybe classes or even counseling may be a good idea. Or, if you really have such a strong relationship in other areas, just a lot of good, honest communication. And probably some compromise.
Also, I can't quite tell from your post- do you ever make with the solo sex? If you don't, that might make your partner's solo expeditions seem that much worse, like he's using up something that was supposed to be yours. But you both have a right to some time alone with your very own body, to enjoy without having to worry about anyone else's feelings for a while. Take yourself on a date now and then.
Great advice.
Wow, missed the third sentence. Sorry! Keep it up!
I have a much lower sex drive than my boyfriend, and one of my solutions to try and increase my desire is to read erotica. Visual porn doesn't work for me, but I think it might be a similar idea. I'm not saying that this is why your boyfriend watches porn, but just to illustrate that there is a multitude of reasons why he might turn to porn.
That said, I am concerned that there is a lack of honesty and/or open communication about the issue, and that you have apparently fought multiple times over it. I don't really have any advice except that in my opinion the sex issue is secondary to an overarching trust and communication issue. The latter should be resolved before the former is tackled, otherwise there's kind of no point.
Personally, I've never been bothered by a partner looking at porn--so long as they were having great, fun, attentive sex with ME.
I think you guys need to look at why the sex is only perhaps mediocre, why his drive for real world sex is low, are there things you can EACH be doing to please the other that would enhance the sex? It may just be possible that you two are sexually incompatible.
I think the big thing that a lot of commentators are missing here is that there is a big difference between a healthy interest in erotic material and a porn addiction.
And this sounds like an addiction.
Compulisve.
Hidden.
Interfering with his relationships.
Possibly damaging to his social interactions (especially with you).
Impacting negatively on the people around him.
I think he really needs to talk about this to someone if he wants to kick the habit. In England we have a counselling organisation called Relate that specialises in sex and relationships counselling. I don't know about in America, but I imagine they have a similar service there. Maybe an organisation like Planned Parenthood could give you some options.
On the Relate website you can email a counsellor for advice (the website is here: http://www.relate.org.uk/emailacounsellor/ro_intro.asp?redirect=1&cat=33 ).
I hope you find the right path for you. But at the end of the day you have to remember that it is his problem, not yours, and he has to want to change his patterns of behaviour.
Don't let his problems quash your self esteem. You don't have to carry him through this. Especially if he is unwilling to work with you.
But apparently he did kick the habit and now wants to have sex often but she doesn't want to.
I think the porn was just one symptom of bigger issues.
This is a good point. It's impossible for us to know just from one post whether he has an actual addiction, but that means we also can't rule it out as a possibility. I hope somewhere in this variety of opinions you're getting what you need, Sarah!
There probably are men who are legitimately addicted to porn.
But a lot of men who hide their porn and lie about their porn use are men who are in relationships with women who would freak out if they knew their man used porn (even though a huge proportion of American men are regular users of pornography).
So the guy hides his porn stash so his partner won't freak out and scream at him.
That's not an "addiction" - that's a rather passive way of avoiding conflict in a relationship. It's not the healthiest way to deal with conflict, and that's a problem in and of itself, but it's a far cry from "addiction".
Beyond that, a lot of the Christian fundamentalists spend a lot of time shaming men for looking at porn and masturbating - that has absolutely nothing to do with human psychological health, and everything to do with the fundamentalist's reactionary sexual agenda.
Bullshit. That's taking away all respect from the woman by not allowing her to make decisions in her own relationship. I was abused my a porn user who used to rub it in my face. If someone lied about porn use in order to fuck me (which they have) I do consider it rape. Why should one person decide what is okay for the person? They need to grow up, be honest andi f that means a break up, then so be it.
You know what, you may ethically disagree on porn and consider it a breach of trust if your boyfriend uses porn when you've told him you don't like it, but calling it rape is going too far and distasteful for those who have actually been raped.
I agree. I find incredibly distasteful and offensive as a rape survivor.
Oh Sarah my heart goes out to you because I and so many women, lesbians as well as hetero women, I know have been in this situation before. You totally deserve and can do better. You have no obligation to stick around with a boy who's hurt and disrespected you so deeply, even if he's been scared into changing momentarily.
Sex is way more integral to human, and relational, happiness than we give it credit for. It's like affection, like food. And like everything else it takes work to keep it interesting, but it's integral. Romantic relationships don't last without sex.
Its political significance aside, porn is sexually crippling because it trains us to get aroused by (what become in the psyche) non-entities, objects. Like what's happened to your boyfriend. Consider the prevalence of Viagra prescriptions for men under 30; this is why. (My neurobiologist fiance, who is not surprisingly porn-free, is writing an article about this, thus furthering my radical feminist views, mwahaha).
Point is there are men out there who don't or who won't use porn once you have a chat about it and let them know that you expect respect and consideration from your partner, which includes not participating in oppressive systems like the sex industry, and also includes honoring YOUR human need for frequent and good sex. I met one after years of ridiculous boys. Be strong and keep looking, and you will, too.
Sarah,
I just want to let you know that you are not alone. My partner and I went through/are going through a similiar situation. I understand turning to a community for advice, though ultimately you need to do what is right for you and your relationship. For my partner and I, we came up against A LOT of resistance, when he opened up about his porn addiction (not to imply that I believe your partner may have an addiction). Pornongraphy is just one of those topics EVERYONE has something to say about.
I just want to say to you, that it is perfectly okay to be upset. Everything that you feel is valid, because you feel it. If both you and your partner believe the relationship is truly worth the work, then you will both be willing to put that effort in to make sure everyone is happy. Do not be afraid to tell your partner that you are feeling unhappy if that is the case. The best way through these situations (in my experience) is open, honest communiction.
Thank you all for your kind and thoughtful responses. It's just nice to know that there are some people who understand my situation.
When this first started happening, I told the people I was closest to, which are my sisters.
They laughed at me and told me that I was being stupid and that he doesn't have the problem, I do. They told me that I should 'get over' my issues with his porn or else my boyfriend is going to leave me over it.
And so I shamed myself very deeply for feeling that he should change his ways for me.
But I'm glad that there are women on feministing that don't think that I am in the wrong to feel this way. Thank you.
I'm gonna reply to some of your responses now.
=)
The issue of porn and relationships is a deeply personal one for me, too. I have contemplated posting about it on the community blog for awhile. I have so many thoughts about it, but for now I just want to respond to the people who feel that using porn is not cheating. When my boyfriend masturbated to porn, he imagined that he was the man in the picture. The woman or women were sucking his cock. That's a lot different than simply looking at other people having sex and getting off. His porn use wrecked my self-esteem and our trust for a long time. I found myself competing with the porn women, trying to pick up their tricks so I could be sexier than them. It was emotionally exhausting.
So, Sarah, I don't think you are alone in feeling uncomfortable about him going to porn over you. If you find he's still using porn secretly, you can either break up with him (if you're willing to go that far) or you can keep reminding him of the disconnect between his feminism and his use of porn which significantly hurts you and your self-esteem.
"When my boyfriend masturbated to porn, he imagined that he was the man in the picture. The woman or women were sucking his cock. That's a lot different than simply looking at other people having sex and getting off."
I don't mean this as an attack, but there's no way to put it more gently: that is seriously irrational.
What, do you think he isn't using his imagination when photographs aren't involved? If anything he's imagining more vividly when he doesn't have benefit of the visual stimulation. And he's working harder to imagine a scenario that doesn't include him?
Are you going to make him sign an affidavit that his fantasies only involve the imaginary version of you? How are you going to verify compliance? For that matter, how is the real you going to compete with the imaginary you?
Seriously, sometimes peace of mind demands that we give up trying to control certain things. First, trying to go there is crazy-making. Second, it's...well, it's controlling. When you start feeling like you own the right to control the contents of someone else's imagination, you've gone too far.
You should be concentrating on whether you have a good relationship in real life. If that is true, then fantasy is inconsequential.
I should clarify the above comment:
Obviously Sarah is (was?) in a different situation. The fact that Sarah's boyfriend wasn't interested in sex with her, that's a huge problem right there. Likewise, if theminutepast's boyfriend preferred masturbation to sex with her, that also is a huge problem. But in both of those cases, that would be a problem in and of itself, regardless of the contents of the boyfriend's fantasies.
The reality is, you will never know with absolute certainty that your boyfriend's fantasies are acceptable to you. You will never know for certain that he isn't thinking about someone else even while he is making love to you. You might find out for certain, if he gasps the wrong name at an inopportune moment -- but you will never be able to prove the negative. If you make that important, you will never have peace of mind over it.
The only things you can be sure of are the things that happen in real life. If things are bad in real life, deal with the problems, of course. If things are good in real life, worrying about what is imaginary is manufacturing trouble.
That's true, and you have my feelings and my situation spot on.
But, I don't think it's uncommon for women to compare themselves to the pornstars. Even the most secure, confident women our there aren't immune to it. I seriously think that if we flipped it, and we lived in a society that glorified the faux-sexuality of airbrushed young, muscular, gorgeous men, and then when our boyfriends go to bed we stay up masturbating to the unattainable perfection that these pornstars embody, then men would feel exactly the same way women do.
It's a side effect of living in a patriarchal society. Obviously we'd be doing ourselves good by avoiding those thoughts and feelings, but we can't act like it's irrational or uncommon if we do feel that way.
Yes, you could have said your point more nicely.
Personally, I grew up with all my fantasies being from a man's perspective. When I read erotica or even watched porn on the rare occasion, I always masturbated to what the man was doing to the woman. It was never visualizing myself in the fantasy. I wouldn't be surprised if other women find that they have written themselves and their pleasure out of male-dominated fantasies, too. I can't change the way I feel about mainstream pornography, nor would I wish to. I have very big problems with representation of women in mainstream pornography. I find it suspicious that men hide from their girlfriends the fact that they masturbate to porn. And I find my boyfriend's use of porn especially disturbing. (You know that many men claim to use porn to stop themselves from cheating "in real life," right?). You may call me irrational, but that doesn't prove anything except that you can't remain civil in debate.
I didn't call you irrational. I called your argument irrational. If I had meant you, I would have used the word 'you.' Instead, I used the word 'that'. I'm sorry you found my wording offensive, but it really wasn't a comment on your person.
I may have misunderstood what you were trying to say, but I read your complaint to mean that pictures are bad because they allow your boyfriend to put himself in the center of the action. The reality is that he is perfectly capable of using his imagination to put himself at the center of the action, regardless of the presence or absence of any external medium. No amount of declaring particular media off limits will change that. To that extent, your argument does not compute.
Further, you need to come to terms with the reality that his fantasies are HIS fantasies. Not yours. They are entirely for his own selfish benefit, and that's okay. That's why he's the one imagining them. You get your own fantasies, that are entirely for YOUR own selfish benefit, which is also okay. He doesn't get to imagine them for you. He doesn't get to pursue you into the inner recesses of your own imagination and tell you what is acceptable to think. You don't get to do that to him either. The way you would have it, even his most private thoughts are not in actuality private. Is he in fact a separate person?
I'm not particularly surprised that your boyfriend would hide his use of porn from you. Self-gratification is one of the most personal things a person can do, and you seem to feel entitled to step in and direct his to meet your needs.
His fantasies are a product of a patriarchal society. For example, why is it so much easier to find a male dominant than a female dominant? Sex roles are not inherent. Men learn their fantasies from the world around them, including porn, that degrading and humiliating women is the "right" way to get off. Unfortunately because it has become the norm people rarely challenge it but the fact is fantasies don't spring up out of nowhere. Both men and women should be challenging their fantasies because ultimately in most cases they are only the product of the misogynistic society we live in.
"Sex roles are not inherent."
Says who? The basic mechanics of penetration as well as natural size discrepancy between genders disagrees with you, as do the dominant behavior of males in the vast majority of species.
Do you honestly believe that all male fantasies and tendencies are rooted solely in society?
I haven't done any scientific studies but if you browse websites with erotic stories there is just as much if not more about fem dom than male dom.
Same with me.
This is why I refuse to date men who watch porn. Of course, most men watch porn, so maybe I should rephrase: I refuse to date men who won't give up porn while they date me.
If they can't understand my personal, ethical objection or think it's not worth it, then the relationship is not worth my time.
It sounds like maybe you should make this your standard as well?
My first two boyfriends that I spoke of didn't watch porn.
My first boyfriend didn't have a lot of money or a computer or any porn DVDs. Whether he was morally opposed, I'm not sure, but I know he didn't look at it.
My other boyfriend right before my current boyfriend, didn't watch porn, because he said he didn't like it.
That's why I was never really worried about porn or anything before this relationship, I didn't know that it would ever effect a guy and his sexual relationship with me.
So I suppose if me and my boyfriend broke up, it'd be hard for me to stomach another guy with a porn problem. I just always assume that all guys do, maybe that's my bad for believe stereotypes.
Interesting, you assume guys watch porn even though your first boyfriends didn't? I think most guys have watched porn at some point. Probably a lot of women too. I've watched porn but just for curiosity's sake. But I personally see no why the porn watching needs to continue in a serious relationship if one partner is uncomfortable with it. Since he's not satisfied with the sex life either, obviously it's a mutual problem and not just your problem. Now my question is why do you want to have more sex? Is it because he wants it and you feel like you should want it because you used to want it more? Do you actually desire more sex but you feel like the porn problem has changed your sex drive? Of course there are people who get together and realize they have different sex drives and manage to deal with it. Difference is it was always like that for them while you two have switched. It's also possible that if you "settle" for this and the relationship continues to be good in the ways you've said it is, then slowly the sex part could get better. Anyway, lots of possible answers because you didn't write that much about how the relationship is now (and I haven't read that many comments). It sounds like you are still sexually attracted to him and you're both loving. That sounds good. So what makes it a problem? That's not to say there isn't one. I just keep wondering how you're different from any couple with different sex drives aside from the cause of it.
Here's what confuses me about this conversation. Wanting variety and solo time in one's sex life is perfectly healthy and normal in my opinion, but the words of the OP were this:
"..just regular misogynistic porn, but porn none the less."
Which insinuates that this isn't just "variety," but that the content caused the viewer to engage in misogyny, e.g. fetishizing the degradation of women. The very concept does not sync with this following statement:
"..respectful and feminist relationship.."
Supporting or participating in that kind of behavior is not a indication of respect for women, nor a sign of respect for the women in one's life. And if I were in the OP's situation, this would be my real reason for being upset. The pictures may the medium, but this is the true offense. Misogynistic behavior is a breach of trust, and discovering a breach of trust will put anyone off sex, if not the entire relationship.
sarah, do you think this scenario could be a part of your lingering hesitation?
While I agree with others' comments that variety and masturbation are normal and healthy desires, the method in which one engages in those activities should be considered as well. If the content is truly as you described, feeling upset is completely justifiable.
You seem to want to continue the relationship, so I wonder if it's worth holding a discussion with the bf on the subject? There must be ways he can meet his needs while still making sure you feel secure and respected. It is not irrational or selfish to demand safety and respect in a relationship, and there are plenty of ways to get your solo play on that are misogyny-free.
Hi Chris, thanks for commenting.
What I mean by "regular misogynistic porn" is that the majority of what he watches from what I saw was the mainstream kind, which I believe to be misogynistic. Some people might disagree, but that's what I meant by that statement.
I agree. Mainstream porn, at its "best", showcases women as objects and not human beings. That's just the mild stuff that manages to avoid most of the violence inherent in the industry.
This is why I get frustrated when people are told that they shouldn't complain, because their partner's porn has nothing to do with them, or that it's healthy. Misogyny is neither healthy nor irrelevant, and women shouldn't be made to feel like they're being selfish, overreacting, or otherwise imposing on someone's god-given 'right to porn' when they dare to get upset about it.
well said; I couldn't agree more.
Agreed! I'm glad I don't have to have the conversation as to why it's misogynistic. God I hate having that conversation.
Just out of curiosity what are people's stance on:
a) Erotica or written pornography (smut, slash, etc).
b) Animated pornography or comic book pornography (stuff like anime or the erotic graphic novel Lost Girls by Melinda Gebbie and Alan Moore).
I'm assuming neither of these would raise ethical objections since there's no physical actors and actresses but I want to see what your stance is on this. Is it still "cheating" if you enjoy consuming this type of material? Do you still feel like your self-esteem suffers? These are some issues that have been raised with porn movies with live actors so I'm curious about the answers.
It's a really gray area. Personally, I'm not disturbed by a partner using erotica. With written word, you have to imagine the characters. They aren't real people (even though the real people in porn are basically strangers, people you've never met or will never meet). That makes a difference, but I'm afraid I'm not very good at articulating it.
What about other visual material like graphic novels (like Lost Girls, etc) which is drawn, hence there's no real people?
No opinion on A,
B is a mix of Hilarity and morbid curiosity
A lot of you mentioned that me and him should just talk about it. We have talked about it before, and it did improve in quantity, but not so much in quality. I'm afraid to bring up the quality because he has the type of personality where if you bring it up, it makes him feel more insecure, and thus our sex life will suffer even more.
God we have a lot of problems. lol.
Classes. Seriously. I know it sounds weird at first. If not classes, maybe books? We are not born perfect lovers.
If you want to frame it in a positive way you could suggest it's a way to continue to explore your sexuality together instead of saying the quality sucks.
But is this what is bothering you? That the quality of the sex continues to be poor? I seems before you were upset about the quantity.
Or are you upset because he used to watch lots of porn, and even though that is in the past you are still angry about that?
Maybe it's a combination of both. You can work together to improve the quality. But the other aspect, the resentment, that's something that only *you* can fix.
Also, don't keep quiet just because you think he'll feel insecure. I know I felt angry when my husband brought up some sexual stuff (I was less sexually experienced than he was) and stormed out. But eventually I came back and figured out that I wanted to try and make it better for both of us. It helped me become much more secure about myself.
Tiptoeing around the issue will not help him. Or you. You'll end up very frustrated.
It sounds like you fear that you don't measure up to the pictures on his computer screen, and he fears (or worse, knows) he doesn't measure up to your expectations in bed. Ouch, for both of you.
I wish I had some suggestions about how he could be enthuasistic about improving his skills. It's not like you don't want him in your bed, skills or not -- though he probably is picking up that your sexual attraction for him is pretty broken right now, which is not exactly an incentive to stop the avoidance. But still, he could become confident, you could be enthusiastic over his new skills; the prospect looks bright when approached from the right angle.
At the same time, I'd bet good money that he doesn't really prefer the women in the films to you. A 10" tall, two-dimensional image that can't be touched, smelled, tasted, who doesn't touch, smell or taste in return, or do anything other than be watched, is a pretty pathetic substitute for the real live you.
Have you considered counseling? It might be more productive to have an intermediary helping you both through this.
I just wanted to second the counseling suggestion. If you find the right therapist, they could probably make a safer space for the two of you to talk through some of these issues -- which are clearly really difficult for you to navigate on your own. When there's a third person in the equation, it helps to buffer some of the tougher talk so that neither person feels directly attacked.
When men masturbate, they are jacking off, oppressing women, supporting the mysoginistic patriarchy.
When women masturbate, they are engaging in a beautiful journey of self discovery.
Did you mean this seriously? Because if so, wow. I agree with you that the misogynistic content of mainstream pornography is a problem, so hetero guys are going to have trouble finding erotic material that's more egalitarian. But why do they not have the same right (and need) to discover their sexuality through masturbation that women do? If I were involved with a guy, I wouldn't want him to feel like solitary sex was shameful and oppressive when he did it but not when I did -- and I'm definitely not interested in giving up my relationship with my own body even when I'm in a sexually active relationship.
Hehe, if you look at my above posts you'll see I"m totally defending everyone's right to masturbate and look at porn. This post was supposed to be an ironic comment on some other people's attitudes that if your boyfriend looks at porn it means he doesn't respect you or whatever.
Several people have said they won't date a guy unless he never looks at porn or at least agrees to stop looking at porn now that they're dating. I wonder how they'd respond to a guy who said he would only date women who agreed to never touch themselves, or never read romance novels, etc? That doesn't seem at all controlling and creepy?
Your example seems unfair. You compare a woman asking her boyfriend to give up porn to a man asking his girlfriend to give up masturbating. In doing that, you imply that in the first scenario, the man who gives up porn won't be able to masturbate. (Otherwise, why would you then compare it to asking a woman to stop masturbating?). The boyfriend can still masturbate to whatever fantasies he likes; it's just that pornography has the tendency to screw up sexual relationships between real people. There's a difference between actively consuming mainstream pornography and not being able to get rid of fantasies you've been socialized to have. Anyway, I think your comparison is bunk.
I actually also compared porn and romance novels, as an example.
But the point of the comparison is that they're trying to control what goes on in their boyfriend's head.
If a guy said he would only date women who, while they are allowed to masturbate, are not allowed to watch romantic comedies or any movies or TV with a hot male lead, because then they might be fantasizing about the actor rather than the boyfriend, and that's cheating -- would that be fair? They don't even have to be fantasizing while masturbating-- people have other kinds of fantasies. If I watch a movie where an attractive man proposes to his girlfriend, I could be imagining being her, and being proposed to by him. What if my boyfriend thought that was cheating because I'm not thinking about HIM at all times in any sort of relationship-related context?
I think that's just as silly as saying that a guy has to fantasize about only his girlfriend at all times whether or not she's there.
As for the porn and masturbation comparison, I still think it is fair. And it is fair because they are trying to control HOW he masturbates, and what he thinks about. Say now instead of a guy telling his girlfriend she can't ever masturbate, he says that ok, she can, but only if she thinks about an approved list of fantasies that he has given her. Because maybe he doesn't want her fantasizing about him doing something he doesn't want to do, so they not only have to be about him, they have to be specific things he's approved. If she wants to fantasize about a new act or position she has to ask his permission, and if he doens't like it it counts as cheating.
Now, some people might be into dom-sub relationships but other than that case I think most poeple are going to find all my examples of a man controlling his girlfriend's thoughts distasteful. Why is it different to control your boyfriend's fantasies? Just because he enjoys fantasies in a visual way doesn't mean they aren't fantasies- he chooses what kind of porn he looks at, its not like he is just being forced to enjoy one particular porn movie.
And, realistically, if a guy is used to masturbating to porn and you take away the porn, he's going to masturbate remembering the porn, visualizing the porn. Its not going to change what he thinks about, except maybe make him sad that its more work and less variety.
I'm going to stick my nose in here, and suggest that perhaps the issue is not so much about controlling fantasies or how people masturbate when people talk about their unease about a partner's porn consumption.
I think there are two hidden things here.
1) One is consumerism. A lot of folks feel that they don't want to support the consumption of porn in anyway shape or form. Remember the saying, "if you don't like it, don't watch it?" Well many, many folks have taken that to heart. And taking it one step further, some people don't even want it in the house and would be offended if their partner or kids were looking at it. I imagine it's similar to some vegetarians who refuse to cook meat for their family members, even though they are not directly consuming it or directly purchasing it.
And here is why I think people should be honest and up front in relationships about their expectations. I don't think either side should assume. Notice I am not taking a position on either side. If someone is a porn aficionado(a), he or she has every right to be as well.
2) The second issue is the fear of unrealistic and unfair expectations or not measuring up. The former is not even necessarily a big deal actually: people can have all the expectations they want. I can expect to wake up to Daniel Craig in the morning, but that don't mean it's gonna happen, lol!
I do wonder if peer influence is the missing ingredient here. In essence, "other people are doing it or getting it, why can't I?" Its might manifest in little slips like "oh, look her husband did this or that", or "my ex-girlfriend tried it".
And in this case I think porn more so than romance novels can be used as a another little tool in the push. Not only that but there seems to be a decent amount of webspace devoted to what appears to be mostly men, sharing and trading pictures, videos with specific emphasis on showing the girlfriend or wive doing specific sexual acts; in essence the individual or the couple is de-emphasized, while the act, e.g. pictures of girlfriend receiving a facial, are emphasized.
I'm trying to understand the psychology here. Benchmarking? Bragging? It's not like there are tons of other places to get free pictures...Either way it suggests a little bit more than just simple masturbatory material in some folks minds.
So before I get flamed:
1) this was not meant to be an anti-porn or anti-masturbation comment
2) I am in no way implying that all or any men or women subscribe to any behavior or thoughts
3) I know that porn can reflect culture.
4) And my hubby just walked in and says that I do wake up next to Daniel Craig! Ok, babe.
Thanks for the clarification :). I was clearly not awake enough this morning to read for tone!
Porn DNE masturbation, and asking someone to stop looking at porn DNE thought-policing. If you really can't understand this, I don't know how I can explain it to you.
Ok, so let's stick completely with physical things. Are you ok with a guy who tells his girlfriend she is not allowed to read romance novels because the men in them are grossly stereotyped and/or it counts as cheating?
I'm curious:
Has there EVER been depictions where a male masturbating is treated as something sensual? (like how women's are depicted in popular culture).
All the depictions of male masturbation in poplar culture that I have seen often depict male masturbation as something silly/humorous/disgusting/aggressive, etc.
The only sensual depictions I can think of would also fall under the humorous category, so no, not that I know of.. And for me and most people I know, sensual is an adjective that would very rarely if ever be used... I think my best example would be some common usage. "I'm gonna go rub one out and take a nap"
I'd be very interested to see a posting on this here in the community section. Any takers?
I've noticed similar behaviour patterns in myself. I have (I think- who measures these things, except relative to their partner?) an average-to-high sex drive. I'm married, and over the past few months my partner's had some health issues, so there's been a lot less sex than either of us are used to- and we both started masturbating more. I started viewing more porn, as well. We didn;t talk about this at first, and this started to turn our own sexuality, a thing we shared happily, into something private to each of us. And that is, I think, tha most damaging aspect of hiding your porn-viewing habits. Part of me wanted to hide it as well, because I didn't want my partner comparing herself to the images I was viewing. I didn't want to be judged on it, either.
So we talked about it, and made a few changes- now we are very open about "having a play". I don't view porn any more- instead, I write it. That means I can access feminist written porn that features exactly what I like, that my imagination in the sexual arena has expanded rather nicely, and I'm better with the dirty talking. My partner reads it too, and it makes the fact that we both masturbate not something to be hidden.
There is- and always has been, for me- an issue of being judged as "not good enough" during sex, which is just not there during masturbation. If he feels bad at it, or even not spectacular at it, a lot of the time he won't want it. This is why bringing other sexual expression into the shared area of our lives, I've become so much more confident, so much happier with what we share.
I've been following this thread and it's been a very interesting discussion.
Some of my questions are:
If there are people who get turned on by reading erotica/or using their imaginations, and another set of people who get turned on visually, why is it that the people who get turned on visually are told to use their minds instead? What gives someone else the right to force another person to enjoy their solo time using a way that they are more comfortable with ,but which the other person might not be as turned on by?
It seems to me that if people are visually stimulated, and porn is not allowed (ethically- because it depicts women as objects), then what are the other items should such visually stimulated people use if they want to masturbate?
A poster above mentioned that her boyfriend should only masturbate to her/pictures of her (for why should he need to see pictures of other women to satisfy himself). Does that mean that when women masturbate, they ONLY think about the Man/partner they're with and nobody else? I find that incredibly hard to believe.
Going back to the issue of visually stimulated people and what other stuff they could use if they can't use porn, would there be any problems if , instead of porn they used:
- Lingerie catalogues
- pictures of nearly naked women in men's magazines (FHM, etc).
- pictures of nearly naked women in WOMEN's magazines?
- webcam movies featuring nearly naked women doing a striptease?
- pictures of random girls they found on Facebook, etc?
Or should people who are visually stimulated be RESTRICTED to just masturbating to pictures of their significant other?
I personally find it ironic: we always say that porn objectified women, but it is exactly because most people who masturbate to porn treat the women (or men) in porn as objects that makes it sane....Imagine if the person masturbating to a woman (or man) in a picture actually treats that person as a REAL person...that would be more in the lines of "cheating" than someone who treats the woman (or man) in the picture as an object.
And since he/she treats them as objects, why is it any different from saying using a vibrator (object)? Are we saying that all men who view naked women in porn automatically view women in their lifes as objects as well and can't tell the difference between Pixels in a picture, and flesh and blood women?
Having said all that, I agree with the OP in the regards of: if given a choice between having sex with a willing partner and masturbating to porn, the choice should overwhelmingly the former.
But of course, sometimes, there might be other issues, like performance anxiety, etc.
timothy,
(In this response I'm going to assume you're talking about pornography that does not depict violence.)
The definition you're using for objectification in your last two paragraphs isn't quite right. The issue isn't about looking at a picture and seeing it for what it is: a set of pixels. The picture itself is an object, yes, but it is how the subject of the picture is portrayed or integrated into the resultant fantasy that is important. When a subject is portrayed as an object without agency, or sub-human, or only existing to be acted upon? This a rough definition of objectification (very rough, because I'm up far too late).
Dildos can't be equated to pornography (they are physical tools, not emotional ones, and would be better equated to - I don't know, a hand? A sock? Whatever men use to simulate physical intercourse).
Porn that objectifies women is problematic because it can and does bleed into the way men treat women in reality, and thus how women are taught to view themselves. You can see the evidence of objectification in reality quite easily, in each catcall, degrading music video, advertisement like this, sexual harassment case, rape, etc, and even more blatantly, how the public reacts to these events and how they are covered by the media.
Because objectification isn't just about sex. It's about power. It's about dominance: who is the object, and who is acting upon that object. Women in this type of porn/erotica/whatever are not equal human beings with a partner that respects their desires and boundaries. No, they are.. well if you've seen any of this type of material, you know exactly the language that should go here (and I'm not going to elaborate out of respect for any that may be upset by this type of imagery). Even in pornography where the subject is not being obviously degraded, there's no way to tell whether they were photographed or taped of their own free will, or if there was some other sort of pressure or coercion involved.. which again, is about someone having power over someone else.
So, yes, porn contributes to the objectification of women in this society. It isn't the only cause, but it is a large one. Does it negatively affect the way both women and men think about female sexuality and worth? Our society clearly reflects that it does. Do I think all men are incapable of knowing better?
No, of course not. But this is what I don't understand: even if a man is not directly treating the women in his life as objects instead of human beings, why would he support activities that do? He is then indirectly contributing to the problem.
This isn't directed at you specifically, because you seem to legitimately want to get some opinions on acceptable stimuli. And that's going to vary depending on who you speak to. In my opinion (which many will disagree with), images of naked women -- even ones who are not your partner -- are not objectionable in themselves (I say this without going into beauty standards here, because this post is long enough already). It's all about the context and whether the woman involved truly consented to said photographs or videos. People who require visual stimulation of some kind shouldn't be shamed for that desire, but they can be expected to be responsible and not condone or contribute to the degradation of others in the process.
I find it interesting that no one has brought up the question of why women aren't attracted to "visual porn." I find it hard to believe that women are more biologically determined to prefer the written word as erotica...
I don't know, I'd be interested to see an explanation for that.
I think for me personally it fits with how I am attracted to guys in real life though. When I had crushes on guys I never spent a whole lot of time thinking about what they looked like-- it was all about the feel when they hugged me, how I felt when talking to them, etc. I gather than men with a crush on a woman spent more time thinking about how beautiful/hot she is. (And don't tell me that makes them more superficial-- I know plenty of guys who've fallen for a girl who is not in their normal range of attractiveness, and they feel for her because they really liked her as a person, but they then describe her as really hot-- so the point is they describe/percieve a woman they really like as physically hot even if they wouldn't have said she was hot before they talked to her).
It might be that there wasn't much visual porn that appealed to women in the past. Nowadays, yaoi (male on male comics) have about an 80 per cent female readership so some types of visual pornography are definitely being embraced by women.
Also, when I fantasize I don't think about visual things. People don't have faces or even specific hair colors. I imagine scenarios and how they would feel to the people involved (quite often I'm not even in the fantasy, why should my boyfriend have to be?). A photo could help me think of an interesting scenario but it isn't really the point in and of itself.
However, I can respect that some people (perhaps most men) are more visually attuned, and might be more interested in seeing a photo of an act than reading a description of it. And that's fine-- why should I insist that their brain must work exactly like mine?
Me too. When I masturbate I almost never think about people. It's always emotional and physical feelings.
Oddly enough, during about half of my orgasms I have a really vivid image of flowers. There's always a different kind of flower that I picture, but flowers are a consistent image. It's so weird! Orchids, roses, lilies, Gerbera daisies, Queen Anne's lace, hibiscus, .... I'm not even all that familiar with flowers. I'm no gardener and I accidentally kill most potted plants I've ever owned.
I actually feel like I've been trained TO NOT LIKE visual porn. I don't think it's natural. I feel like many women (maybe a generational thing too) are conflicted because the imagery is arousing but emotionally it's upsetting at the same time.
I don't know if that makes sense. It's kinda like when I hear a really tight song, and I wanna move and dance to it, and then I here the "bitch, ho, n*gger this and that" and I get turned off. That's how I feel with a lot of porn.
There are plenty of folks who will ignore song lyrics if the beat and the melody are slammin'. I'm not one of those people. And I don't want to be one of those people. Nothing against folks, it's just that's not what I want for myself. And that's how I feel about a lot of mainstream porn.
In 2009, I see that there are a lot more options and better productions for women, but I've been turned off it for so long, that I've developed sort of an aversion...even though sometimes I really want to look at it. I might poke around on youporn or something like that to see what's going on; and there are some pretty good forums where people post their own pictures and stories and partake in general sex chit chat.
I've found the forums (moderated though) to be a more well-rounded porn experience (you can watch, read and discuss); but I still have to stay out of the "multimedia" section where people file share and upload free stuff. Just the titles are descriptions are generally sickening enough that I don't want to check them out.
Lastly, on principle it pisses me off that gay male porn is sort of set off to the side. So typically they'll have "regular porn" with het stuff and some women on women action or whatever, but if you want to see 2 men play together even with a woman in there, nope, sorry. You have to go to the other section. Fuck that.
I would say I'm not attracted to "visual porn" because it is not marketed toward me as a woman primarily interested in men. Non-gay porn is almost all marketed toward straight men. I'm not interested in watching porn because I'm not interested on the gaze always being on the woman and the men being ugly and performing sex in a way I find so unbelievably notsexy. If I could find porn that was made for me with the focus on the man (and when this is done, it's called straightporn for gay men! heh) as easily and as cheaply as straight men can find porn made for them, I would very much more be attracted to porn!
I enjoy "visual porn" and know a couple of other women who do, and I've read that as much as 1/3 of porn watchers are women, but I'm not sure how true that is. However, I would say that it is extremely difficult to find mainstream porn that is not clearly aimed towards a male audience, and a lot of it is misogynistic.
I've occasionally not looked at porn simply because it is difficult to find clips where any males in the scene are attractive, the women are also what I consider attractive (obvious and painful looking breast implants, for one, make me uncomfortable and not turned on) and where there isn't random rough action. I don't always mind that, but it's deeply upsetting for me to be watching a vanilla sex scene where the man suddenly grabs the woman's throat, for example.
Much of the porn that is less rough or kinky is just women stripping or having sex with each other, or a sex scene which is shot so that you view the woman's body for most of the time, which is fine but not my thing as I'm straight.
It is getting easier to find clips that meet all those expectations, especially with things like redtube and companies that cater to similar viewers, but it's still hard and it's still not "mainstream" to find sex with two attractive people and sex that seems pleasurable for both partners. Odd.
I've been through a similar situation with my boyfriend twice and am still a bit touchy about it so forgive me if I am just copying someone else but I just can't bring myself to read the comments.
For all the talk of porn brainwashing men this is actually true to an extent. After a period of time of weatching porn people's brains actually start changing, forming connections which associate porn with pleasure rather than sex. Sex becomes boring because ultimately a real live person in a normal situation is not going to be able to pull some of the stunts he would have seen in porn. Eventually they get to a point where real sex just isn't as exciting to them because it will never be degrading enough.
The good news is that the brain is always changing. For all the links that have been formed new ones can always be created. The longer he is off porn then the more realistic his desires will become. It may take a while but if he really is off the porn then it will work.
Just as a warning though: my boyfriend stayed away from porn for six months and then started watching it again without telling me (given that I have been abused and would not have consented to sex with him if I had known, this is a huge deal to me). While your boyfriend may be different I do know from my experience, and from the experiences of people I have talked to about this, without accountability it is possible that he will fall into old habits quite easily. Just be cautiously optimistic.
I also should mention that the sex that you weren't happy with also could be attributed to porn. Given that his only sexual experience beyond you is porn in which women are there to facilitate the man's pleasure rather than gain any real pleasure* themselves it's not really suprising. Also men are trained through porn about what kind of sex is acceptable for men to like eg. hitting women is fine but wanting them to hit you is not. It may take time but with discussion, education (men need to learn that their is more to sex than their penis) and experimentation you may discover things that you both like that you hadn't even considered before. He may just be following the role he is supposed to play rather than actually engaging with you in learning what is good/not.
*real pleasure does not constitute ridiculously overexaggerated yelling at how good rough sex feels. Given the low percentage of women who can actually orgasm through penis-in-vagina sex it is completely unrealistic.
"Also men are trained through porn about what kind of sex is acceptable for men to like eg. hitting women is fine but wanting them to hit you is not."
You have a pretty fucked up view of what normal males think is socially acceptable.
"I also should mention that the sex that you weren't happy with also could be attributed to porn."
To my recollection Sarah has not provided detail regarding the reasons she found their sex to be less than "amazingly fantastic." We don't have enough information to judge whether or not the trouble can be attributed to porn.
Even if her boyfriend was unaware that most women do not achieve orgasm through PIV sex alone, it is not reasonable to fault porn for this. It's not like this topic is covered in U.S. public school sex education.
I agree with other posters that couples counseling is needed in this case. Even if "Eric" gives up porn completely and never feels resentment over this (which I doubt), the effect the awareness of past porn use is having on Sarah is damaging the relationship and needs to be addressed.
This was an interesting discussion. However I was wondering about a few things. And before I start, please keep in mind that I am not entirely sober and that Enlish is a foreign language to me.
If we were able to skip the genders of the 2 persons from the first post we would have a female virgin enjoing masturbation while watching porn and an experienced male who wants to have sex daily (or almost daily). The discussion would be going in a total different direction. There would be no discussion about a porn addiction, but a discussion about the sex addiction of her friend. People would say sth like "no wonder she turns to masturbation when he tries to coerce her into sex on a daily basis" or "sex gets dull when you do it daily".
What also irks me is the talk about counceling, where he might learn new sex technics. That really makes me wonder. We have a woman who exactly news what she wants in bed (I assume) and a man who was a virgin before. In a perfect world, she would tell him exactly what she likes, making sex much easier. Now I am talking from personal expierience. Sex for me is dull when I realise that my partner is not having fun, no matter if come or not. We both have to enjoy it. Sadly some women expect men to have telepathic abilities and guess what she likes and what she not likes. In such a relationship I am not surprised that sex is not working the way it should be. Often when sex isn´t fun anymore what is really lacking is communication. IMHO for sex to be finally good both of you have to talk about your fantasies and what you both like, without prejustice.
Now if sex in that relationship has never been that good I suspect that might be a reason he turns to porn as well. Or just imagine someone asking you to have sex on a daily basis, that is always "just" Ok sex. Does not really sound like the mutual great expierience we are all looking for. Especially male virgins who see women orgasm when someone touches their elbow in porn.
What seems confusing to me as well is the notion that someone with a low sex drive has a problem. (There was something in the initial post). Fact is, sex drives differ and those with a low sex drive don´t have a problem. The problem is the compromise between people with different sex drives.
Something for our all bias control. If it is okay for a woman to dump a man she is not sexually interested in anymore because he once was looking at porn, it is also okay for a man to dump a woman
he is not sexually interested in anymore because she gained weight. In both cases the lust fades away (for different reasons though).
Oh another thing about the initial post. "So one day I was on his laptop and I were searching for something and his history popped up" is a great euphemism for I spied on him. Doesn´t convince me though. What was she searching for besides websites he previously visited? (On all Pc I worked with, "histories" just don´t pop up out of nowhere).
And finally another disclaimer. When it comes to sex I guess men and women alike have certain biases. This is normal. I don´t want to judge anyone here, I just want to give another perspective. I can somehow feel for that Eric as I waded kneedeep through the valey of sexual frustration and turned to porn myself as well (for other reasons though). Hopefully both of them find a solution that makes them happy. And also keep in mind the alc and "das Sprachproblem".
Feck out....
Of course I forgot something. Some posters gave me the impressions that it was not okay for him to "withhold" sex and masturbate instead.
I believe, noone in a realtionship is entiteld to have sex with his SO, while everyone has the right to explore the own sexuality themselves (leaving extreme cases aside). Of course everyone is free to leave a relationship where sexuality simply does not match.
Sarah, I'm so sorry but yet I'm so glad to hear that someone else knows what I am going through.
My boyfriend looks up "big breasts" just about every day on the Internet -- mostly while in the privacy of his office at the business he runs. (I'm a DD cup but he hardly ever touches mine.) We've been together two years and have never had a very active sex life, not by my choice. I push for it and consistently get rejected (the "tired" excuse). My boyfriend was 28 when we met and definitely NOT a virgin, like a hundred women, but only a couple of girlfriends. He even cheated on me once, and I took him back. I don't think he's sleeping with anyone else, but I feel like since he doesn't want to sleep with me he MUST want to sleep with someone else. I try to initiate stuff, but nadda. He's not a passionate person with me. We don't make out, as much as I try.
I'm frustrated, I'm lonely, my self-esteem is battered, and I'm resentful. I've taken to berating him, trying to shame him into fucking me. Obviously that doesn't work. I showed him an article about porn harming men's sex life and he was floored, said he'd stop looking. He hasn't. I told him I don't care if he looks at porn as long as WE have sex. But it really seems like it's one or the other. Plus, he smokes weed every day. Of course that damages his sex drive. That's why he's so damn tired at bed time. Plus he's gained 30+ pounds and is pretty inactive -- that doesn't help either. Yet he doesn't do anything to improve himself and our sex life.
I'm at wit's end. I can't understand why you don't want to sleep with your boyfriend anymore, Sarah. All that time when you were rejected, doubting yourself, your sexuality, his interest in you. Just because your boyfriend wants to have sex now, that doesn't erase all the feelings and thoughts you had during that time. Makes me think, even if my boyfriend were to miraculously change and grow an active sex drive, would it make a difference in how I think/feel about him after two years of this?
Sarah, I'm so sorry but yet I'm so glad to hear that someone else knows what I am going through.
My boyfriend looks up "big breasts" just about every day on the Internet -- mostly while in the privacy of his office at the business he runs. (I'm a DD cup but he hardly ever touches mine.) We've been together two years and have never had a very active sex life, not by my choice. I push for it and consistently get rejected (the "tired" excuse). My boyfriend was 28 when we met and definitely NOT a virgin, like a hundred women, but only a couple of girlfriends. He even cheated on me once, and I took him back. I don't think he's sleeping with anyone else, but I feel like since he doesn't want to sleep with me he MUST want to sleep with someone else. I try to initiate stuff, but nadda. He's not a passionate person with me. We don't make out, as much as I try.
I'm frustrated, I'm lonely, my self-esteem is battered, and I'm resentful. I've taken to berating him, trying to shame him into fucking me. Obviously that doesn't work. I showed him an article about porn harming men's sex life and he was floored, said he'd stop looking. He hasn't. I told him I don't care if he looks at porn as long as WE have sex. But it really seems like it's one or the other. Plus, he smokes weed every day. Of course that damages his sex drive. That's why he's so damn tired at bed time. Plus he's gained 30+ pounds and is pretty inactive -- that doesn't help either. Yet he doesn't do anything to improve himself and our sex life.
I'm at wit's end. I can't understand why you don't want to sleep with your boyfriend anymore, Sarah. All that time when you were rejected, doubting yourself, your sexuality, his interest in you. Just because your boyfriend wants to have sex now, that doesn't erase all the feelings and thoughts you had during that time. Makes me think, even if my boyfriend were to miraculously change and grow an active sex drive, would it make a difference in how I think/feel about him after two years of this?
Whoops I sent it twice, but I corrected the second sentence in the last paragraph: "I CAN understand why you don't want to sleep with your boyfriend anymore."
Sarah, I'm so sorry but yet I'm so glad to hear that someone else knows what I am going through.
My boyfriend looks up "big breasts" just about every day on the Internet -- mostly while in the privacy of his office at the business he runs. (I'm a DD cup but he hardly ever touches mine.) We've been together two years and have never had a very active sex life, not by my choice. I push for it and consistently get rejected (the "tired" excuse). My boyfriend was 28 when we met and definitely NOT a virgin, like a hundred women, but only a couple of girlfriends. He even cheated on me once, and I took him back. I don't think he's sleeping with anyone else, but I feel like since he doesn't want to sleep with me he MUST want to sleep with someone else. I try to initiate stuff, but nadda. He's not a passionate person with me. We don't make out, as much as I try.
I'm frustrated, I'm lonely, my self-esteem is battered, and I'm resentful. I've taken to berating him, trying to shame him into fucking me. Obviously that doesn't work. I showed him an article about porn harming men's sex life and he was floored, said he'd stop looking. He hasn't. I told him I don't care if he looks at porn as long as WE have sex. But it really seems like it's one or the other. Plus, he smokes weed every day. Of course that damages his sex drive. That's why he's so damn tired at bed time. Plus he's gained 30+ pounds and is pretty inactive -- that doesn't help either. Yet he doesn't do anything to improve himself and our sex life.
I'm at wit's end. I can understand why you don't want to sleep with your boyfriend anymore, Sarah. All that time when you were rejected, doubting yourself, your sexuality, his interest in you. Just because your boyfriend wants to have sex now, that doesn't erase all the feelings and thoughts you had during that time. Makes me think, even if my boyfriend were to miraculously change and grow an active sex drive, would it make a difference in how I think/feel about him after two years of this?