I am passionate about sex. Doing it, learning about it, talking about it. I am particularly passionate about female sexuality and hope to pursue a career in which I can encourage and help women to truly embrace their sexuality and sexual drives. There is so much I want to write about, eventually I hope to be able to organize all my thoughts into a coherent book, but for now I want to focus on something that happened this week.
I'm a junior in college right now, and just started a human sexuality class. While I've been aware of sexual double standards and other misconceptions about sex and sexuality, it's been a while since I've heard someone in person actually flat out say such a sexist idea. In the class, we were having a discussion based on different hypothetical situation. They were short descriptions of 8 different people and their chosen sexual lifestyles. We were then supposed to state whether we admired and respected the person, or whether we did not.
Within these hypothetical situations, there was one about a woman who liked to sleep around, and another about a man who liked to sleep around. Both were said to be about the same age (late college), but the woman was described as sleeping around because she liked sex and the freedom of not being in a relationship, while the man was described as expecting his dates to sleep with him and enjoying the status he gained from his success with women. While discussing the female character, one guy in the class said that he didn't like her because...can you guess? "she's a total slut." Being outspoken about these things, I couldn't prevent myself from interrupting him and asking him what he thought of the male character. Again, can you guess his response? "This guy's cool, I mean, he's just got getting women down to a science." It just blew my mind that someone would so blatantly say such a sexist thing. Obviously I hear about people that think this way, but rarely do I actually get to hear someone in person admit to it. Of course I wanted to tear into him, but luckily the professor called him out and asked him if he realized what a sexist double standard that is. The guy just kind of went, "uh, ya." Rather unbelievable...
Later in the class we got on the topic of abortion. Another of the situations described a woman who was a junior in college, in a stable relationship, who accidentally got pregnant. Both she and her boyfriend had career aspirations and decided it would be best if she had an abortion. There were comments made on both sides, supporting her choice, attacking her choice, but then a guy made this comment: "I just don't understand why these people are having sex with the risk of getting pregnant, when they don't want a kid." Again, I couldn't stop myself from interjecting..."Are you a virgin?" On a quick side note, I was telling this story to my boyfriend and he had the same exact response before I even told him what I had said. Made me kind of proud. Back in the class, the professor interjected and told the guy that he didn't have to answer that question. I really wish that he had let me continue on with my point, because if this guy is not a virgin, and does not want kids (which I would say is pretty likely), he is a complete hypocrit. There is always a chance of getting pregnant every time you have sex, so it's not like these people were alone in this risk. I just feel like when a person makes such a judgemental statement about someone's choice, we sort of deserve to know if he lives by his own standards. Am I alone in this?
The other sexist comments in the class would make this post far too long, let's just say that there's not quicker way to bring out the inner chauvinist and sexist in a guy than to put him in a human sexuality class. At one point it was implied that it was worse for a woman to cheat on her husband, because he's paying the bills...when there was no implication that the husband in this situation paid for anything.
This should be an interesting semester!
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Sounds like a very interesting class, and yes, this should be a very interesting semester for you with people like that around. Idiots always add to the amusement, IMHO anyway.
I had originally intended to be a history major, and was very interested in sexuality and the status of women in the ancient world. That class sounds like one that I would have enjoyed a lot. A lot of what I learned in college is not common knowledge, your average person isn't aware of it. Depending on time and place, up until very recently, many women were considered property, literally. Why do you think we still have the "tradition" of the father "giving away" the bride? It was literally the father who owned the daughter giving her to her husband who would then own her. This isn't some kind of semantics, it was literal.
This owning of women, and their virginity, as property goes into the ability of women to consent to sex. They could not consent. It wasn't within their right to give consent, because it was their father, and then their husband who owned said consent. That's why you have laws on the books in the medieval period where it was shown that a husband could not rape his wife, because he owned her consent.
And all of this carries over to the present day because our society has failed to make a break with the past. That's probably part of why this lug-head in your class has the mistaken notion that the woman is a whore or slut, but the guy isn't. History, especially in public primary and secondary school, is grossly neglected. Lies and distortions are often taught as truth.
I could talk for a while on this subject. You should keep us appraised of what you learn in this class and whether or not this classmate of yours learns anything. I won't hold my breath. ;)
Oh, the joys of Human Sexuality classes. I think your responses were perfect. And the first question was more than just a sexist double standard, when you consider the motivations each "character" had. One was about owning one's own sexuality, the other was about owning other people's. Craptastic.
My Human Sexual Behavior professor told us about a nun she had spoken with who realized in her 50s that she was a lesbian. Some genius (who had made it clear through other comments that he identified as heterosexual) called out, "Well, she's never slept with a guy, so how does she know?"
I called out in response, "Have you ever slept with a guy? How can you be sure you're straight?"
The snarkiness opportunities will continue, I'm sure. I'm with Tracker; keep us informed!
Opheelia: 1
Sexist guy: 0
If you were trying to shame him for being a virgin, you're playing the double standard where being a male virgin is bad, yet being a female virgin is good.
and IMO, it was kinda rude and unwarranted for such a tame comment.
I don't think she was trying to "shame" him. (Or are you just being trollish?) She was calling him out for being a hypocrite. Her classmate was decrying the fact that other people (because it's always other people) were having sex and implying that it was a bad decision, when more than likely he's doing the same thing.
It reminds me of something I read online, how abortion protesters would wind up themselves needing an abortion. One nurse asked one of them if they would go back to protesting afterward, and the woman replied of course, because she wasn't a slut like the other women there. She deserved an abortion because it was an accident but the other women didn't, because obviously they were to blame.
People are always laying the blame everywhere but at their own feet.
Without knowing him personally, you can't know if he is a hypocrite or he believes in abstinence. A better question would have been "Do you think sex should only happen for reproductive reasons?"
you're right, that's why I wanted to ask him, and find out if he was judging other people for a behavior that he engaged in as well.
It's definitely a very confrontational approach: imagine asking anyone you disagree with, "well, are you a virgin?"
It sounds like vintgeglamourgrl was assuming that the male was sexually active himself, and thus guilty of a double standard hypocrisy -- but it's hard to tell! not everyone in college (especially in a freshman level class) will be sexually active.
It's probably best not to call people out in such a personal way (politeness aside, it's a fallacy known as "tu quoque") but rather simply address the question behind their own insensitive comment: for example, "many people have sex despite the risks of pregnancy, and believe that an early abortion is one of the last measures of birth control." Start talking about the assumptions behind the conclusions that people are so quick to leap to; this is what freshman level courses are meant to teach, anyway.
Having said all that, I hope the class is illuminating for you and everyone else there, vintgeglamourgrl! No doubt you'll be frustrated sometimes, but hopefully you'll speak up and be a good model for your fellow students.
you're right in two ways. It was a confrontational approach, but his comment was just as confrontational and actually in response to something I had just said. That said, I understand my comment wasn't necessarily completely warranted, but I was swept up in the moment, and found what he was saying so hard to believe.
Secondly, you're right that I was assuming he was sexually active, and therefore was asking him to prove me wrong. However, that wasn't because he was a guy. In my experience, meeting someone in college, a girl or a guy, who is still a virgin, is a VERY rare occurrence. So, I was more assuming he was sexually active because he was a college student, not because he was a male. On top of that, this is a community college, so I would say that at least 75% of the students aren't actually true freshmen.
My main reason for saying something at all was because I get really frustrated when I feel that people are making judgments about other people as if they're not subject to the same risks and consequences as everyone else. But I do realize my comment was a bit hostile, as I was caught up in the moment. Thank you for your well wishes for the rest of the semester.
"In my experience, meeting someone in college, a girl or a guy, who is still a virgin, is a VERY rare occurrence."
Hey, thanks. I feel so much better now. IT IS NOT FUCKING RARE, OK?
okay, I didn't say that if I did meet someone who was a virgin I thought they were weird or that something was wrong with them. I just said that in my experience, it doesn't happen very often. Where I live and the college that I go to, it seems to be the norm that people are sexually active. I am not trying to belittle those who are not. I respect that decision, though it is different from my own. I don't think you can get angry at me for speaking the truth about what has been my experience. I was not trying to say anything negative about people in college who are not sexually active, and I don't think my response implied that in any way.
Rare does not mean bad.
I didn't have sex until I was almost done with college, but at my school that was pretty unusual. I think that at most non-religious colleges its pretty common for people to be sexually active. That doesn't mean anyone is saying anything offensive about those who are not.
I agree with kate- virgins in college are more common than you'd think. If he was a virgin and you called him out on it in the middle of class, I imagine he'd feel pretty ashamed (not that he should, but that's a different story). I know that's not at all what you were going for and I totally understand why you asked him that question. If he truly was sexually active, it would be a great way to point out his hypocrisy. But I do think you have to be very careful with personal questions like that, because there's always the risk of embarrassing someone.
If he believes people should only have sex when they're ready to have kids, and he has had sex, he's a hypocrite. If he believes that and he has not had sex, he should be proud of that fact. If he thinks the right thing to do is be a virgin at that age, then he shouldn't be ashamed to admit it.
Hell, I'm a woman and I was ashamed to admit it because so many people treat you like a freak. If I opened my mouth at a party it meant people would crowd around me to ask "why" I was not having sex at 20.
I think you can ask the same question she wanted to ask without making it a personal attack.
Btw, I wasn't the only virgin around. Many of my friends had not had sex but we just didn't discuss it outside of the "virgin circle" because of the pressure and misunderstanding from sexually active students.
This, exactly.
I think if he's comfortable speaking up in class and saying that other people shouldn't have sex, he should be comfortable saying that he hasn't had sex.
However, more important is my previous point-- it seems like a rhetorical question. I wouldn't expect him to actually answer it, but asking it would make the point to him and the rest of the class.
I was not trying to shame him for being a virgin. I was trying to find out if he really thought about the implications of what he was saying. As Tracker said, people have a tendency to think that other people were being lazy or asking for trouble when they are acting the same way and have just escaped certain consequences. The way he made his comment, he made it sound like this couple were just having all the unprotected sex they wanted and it was just their fault because they were being stupid, when as we all know, no method of birth control is 100%, so they could have been the most careful couple in the world and still gotten pregnant on accident. I understand that reading the comment might make it sounds pretty tame, but in the class, it was pretty accusatory and judgmental.
thanks for clarifying, hopefully my initial comment didn't come across as too accusatory.
The professor who intervened picked up on the uncomfortably ad hom remark. Is the professor a troll too?
I think it was a fair question in a rhetorical sense, but obviously you can't force someone to answer a personal question like that in class which is why the professor intervened. I'm sure you made your point to the rest of the class, which is that most college students are not virgins, regardless of that one guy's answer.
I don't think it was an ad hom attack in the context. He said that he didn't think anyone should have sex if they weren't ready to have kids, and there's a very high likelihood that he has had sex himself without wanting kids, or if not, that lots of his friends have. It was a fair point. I also agree that at most colleges (ie, the ones that aren't very strictly religious), its pretty unusual to meet someone who's still a virgin. Even if he is still a virgin its a good point to make because its likely that most of his friends aren't, and that he won't still be a virgin by the time he decides he wants kids.
"They were short descriptions of 8 different people and their chosen sexual lifestyles. We were then supposed to state whether we admired and respected the person, or whether we did not."
What the heck is the purpose of this exercise? Why is it any of your business what these hypothetical people are doing in their lifestyles? Should we be taught that our actions are for the purpose of others respecting and admiring us, or for the purpose of us feeling comfortable and happy with our choices?
I'm glad the professor responded to the overtly sexist comment, but it's weird that the exercise was presented in the first place.
I"m guessing the point of the exercise was to have some student show they had a double standard for men and women, and then discuss it.
it just sounds like regular class discussion to me. I'm sure the teacher didn't have any intentions except getting you to think about how you really feel about stuff.
I agree that it was a rather odd exercise. The professor's purpose was to try to get a feel for our values about sex. Part of the goal of the class is to help us better understand our own feelings about sex, our own prejudgments, and why we feel that way. Perhaps there could have been a better way to do this, but I do think it is sort of realistic. I mean, in reality a lot of us do get judged by our lifestyle and in return judge others based on theirs. Not all of us do this, but I think we can all agree that a lot do. The exercise was trying to get an honest response out of the students and help them examine their own reactions and motivations for those reactions.
When questioning the student "well are you a virgin" I don't think she asked it expecting a response.
I think she was merely trying to make a point "If you are having sex and YOU are doing it for pleasure and recreation but do not want children - what gives you the right to tell others not to engage in the same sort of activity" Perhaps it should have been stated similarly to what I just posted rather than an outright personal question.
It does hone in on the hypocrisy in people when they say "then don't have sex if you don't want kids". Bringing one's hypocrisy up for discussion is a good way to counter act their beliefs.
Maybe they don't think about it in terms of their own personal lives. But by someone saying "hey, do you abstain from sex to avoid pregnancy?"
I understand the response. And I think it was one that could have been reworded but im sure he still got the point. And the way he said you people made me read it like...you people...aka women. So it may not have been the better choice of words but I would have said it!!!!! I cant really control myself in those situations..
hmm...you know....now that I think of it, I remember giving pretty nasty stares and making some harsh responses to people in Human Sexuality. We didnt have a discussion setting in our class but I sure wanted one. It always amazes me how people can state double standards and not blink an eye. Women too!
I liked the class. I had a very open professor. He pissed me off by giving me a B because he didnt give out plus's or minus's and I got an A- but still...he was good. He talking about the things we believe in society that really arent true.
MMMM...Sex...wish I had it. mmm. lol
Oh, Human Sexuality.In my class, we were segregated by sex for one excercise, and asked to list what we'd want in a one night stand and in a long term partner. The guys wanted a girl who was flexible and shaved. For their long term partner? "wife material" and a virgin. What the fuck. And the girls guessed that the guys would want their one night stand drunk, which made me not so happy since I had given a presentation that mentioned sleeping with a drunk person=rape (of course, I know, there are certain times when you're both consenting, but that's not what I was talking about.)
And the girls in my group...kind of fulfilled the stereotypes the book said about us. That all we want is a nice guy, who cares about how he is sexually! Sex isn't important to women!
I just can't stand the whole wanting a girl who will easily have sex with you whenever you want her to while you're single, but once you want to marry she better have that hymen untouched! Get the fuck over yourselves. Thanks.
There is always a chance of getting pregnant every time you have sex, so it's not like these people were alone in this risk. I just feel like when a person makes such a judgemental statement about someone's choice, we sort of deserve to know if he lives by his own standards. Am I alone in this?
Not at all.
I fucking hate the "if you don't want babies, don't have sex argument" because it smacks of the "sex is only for procreation" bull.
As a childfree woman, it really bugs the hell out of me.
And there's a serious double standard; I've largely seen such statements come out of the mouths of men who seem pretty free to enjoy their sexuality without linking it with procreation. Because birth control and babies is, and remains, a "woman's problem."
At one point it was implied that it was worse for a woman to cheat on her husband, because he's paying the bills...when there was no implication that the husband in this situation paid for anything.
OFFS.
I realize some people (hell, I'm one of them) grew up in families where dad worked an outside job and mom worked at home...but do they live under a rock?
Genuine self-esteem consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself. It rests on the conviction that you--by your choices, effort and actions--have made yourself into the kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction--based on the evidence of bedroom furnitureyour own volitional functioning--that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success.