This is crossposted here.
I often think about how women (as opposed to men) navigate their physical space, but the way we navigate conversational space seems like a parallel to the use of physical space. To begin with, there are the drastically different ways that women and men are taught to use eye contact and body language in conversation. Without even realizing it, we communicate all kinds of messages about dominance and submission as we speak with each other. But lately I've been thinking about female vs. male use of apologies, and what this says about our relative social standing.
It seems to me that my female friends and colleagues apologize a lot, and for things that aren't even their fault. At work a few weeks ago, several people were late to a meeting because of a fire drill in an adjacent building. When a group of women who came from that side of campus arrived, they referenced the fire drill and apologized for being late. A few minutes later, three men from that same building came in and made no apology or explanation. Nobody seemed to notice. Several of the women prefaced their remarks in that meeting with "I'm sorry if this is something we should have covered last week..." or "Maybe I should already know this, but..." None of the men apologized, even when their questions or remarks made us backtrack on the agenda. And this is not an isolated experience.
According to Deborah Tannen and other researchers who study gendered use of language, this communication pattern is typical, and it makes a lot of sense. In many cultures apologies are generally made from those of lower social standing to those of a higher position, and rarely vice versa. Apologies are taken as a sign of weakness. Along with not initiating eye contact or breaking it first, stepping aside or altering your path to avoid a collision, and deferring to someone who talks over you or interrupts you, apologizing is a marker for those in a lower social position. It subconsciously sustains the hierarchy among a mixed-gender group. So I think it should be an objective of all feminists to stop issuing all these unnecessary apologies. If you truly did something wrong or insensitive, by all mean apologize in a sincere manner. But when things happen that aren't your fault, or if you're unsure of the validity of your question or remark, or if the conversation just seems kind of awkward, resist the urge to apologize to smooth the situation over. Take responsibility for your own faults, but no one else's. Social equality dwells in the big picture and in the details, and the way we interact with others on a daily basis is a significant, but practically invisible, detail.
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Don't forget that we are also supposed to smile a lot,too. We look less threatening and more apt to please that way.
Ooh, yeah. I forgot that one.
Oh my goodness. This one really pisses me off. I hate it how strange men somehow get the impression that I exist on this earth to smile and make their world more beautiful.
"Smile, sweetie. Why the frown?"
"Why don't you smile? You would look so pretty if you smiled."
Auurrgh! And they seem so offended when I don't smile. Nobody expects men to smile all the time. Seriously.
Same here. Since 3rd grade I've felt as though I've been singled out by people, especially men, and encouraged to smile. Perfect strangers approach me to tell me to smile. Why should I constantly be smiling? Who does that? Maybe I just found out my brother died. Or maybe I just lost my job. Why is it anyone's business (other than perhaps my loved one's)?
I never considered the gendered aspect of it. When I asked my female friends if this ever happened to them they said it didn't or it rarely did. So I assumed I was just a naturally morose person who didn't smile as much as everyone else.
But now that I think about it I realize it's been men, primarily older, making this request. And I always comply.
Agreed. I can't count the number of times people have told me to smile. I'm so sick of, no stranger has the right to tell anyone to smile. I'm sick of it. My mom does it, too, and always has. I always just thought that there was something wrong with me.
Women do tend to gloss over things like this, though... I wonder if they really haven't experienced it or they just didn't register it.
A friend of mine told me recently that she had never been harassed by a man in a bar. I reminded her of an incident a few months before where this creepy guy was trying to talk to us and I told her and my other friend that he had tried to grab my ass before they came in. They thought they would play with his head, but then he tried to follow them home and they had to hide in another bar until he left. She said she had forgotten about it -- but I can name other similar incidents.
Women are taught not to question these things, or if they do, that it is their own fault. I think admitting that it has happened forces you to own it and it makes some people uncomfortable.
Re-reading that, I think "play with his head" was a bad phrasing... basically they just played along with his shtick assuming that he was harmless.
I remember when I used to ride horses, maybe this particular time was when I was in 7th or 8th grade, we would ride around the ring, and at one side parents could sit and watch. The instructor would be giving us directions and pointers, and I was really focused-controlling the horse, myself, following instructions, watching out for others, and one of the moms went "Smile! Why aren't you smiling?" And that wasn't the first or last time, and it always pissed me off.
Because I don't feel like it, that's why.
Not true - I am male and am constantly being asked to smile more. I have finally learned to tell people to 'fuck off' and don't care how intense or strong I come off. I think that other people, whatever their gender, should follow suit since it is not anyone else's business what our facial expression is. I do not feel that anyone that woman has any obligation to smile and be friendly to me all the time; I don't feel any obligation to smile and be friendly all the time either. If people wish to be shallow and judge others by whether they're smiling, than that's their loss.
Devin, just because this is a phenomenon that SOMETIMES happens to SOME men, doesn't meant that it isn't a force of OPPRESSION for women.
If you ID as feminist, you'll understand how coming in with that comment sounds a lot like, "BUT WHAT ABOUT TEH MENZ?!?!"
Kindly stop.
i'd like to add another language/conversation phenomenon that my friend pointed out to me, and i've seen it in my life. whenever there is a group of girls talking about girl/women centered stuff, and there is a guy present, someone usually points out how the guy might be uncomfortable or not enjoying the conversation, but it doesn't always happen the other way around. for example, my friend was listening to "girly" music with some of her friends and one of them pointed out how their guy friend seemed bored. but how often do guys do that for a lone female friend? i don't know, i'm sure people's experiences differ.
it's also a dynamic for ethnic minorities who have white friends. some of it's unavoidable - i don't expect that they'll be interested in the same things as me, or have the same experiences. however, it gets really annoying when some people accuse minorities of "self segregating" and don't realize that members of the majority do it too.
totally know what you mean.
I'm actually sick of being the one dude the conversation topic is changed for. Most of my friends are girls. If I'm in a conversation with a group of girls, its because I find conversation with them interesting. If a "girl" topic comes up, I might have my own interest and input in it, and if not, then I get to learn about perspectives I don't share. And if I'm not engrossed, I'm only as important as everybody else in the group and my gender should have NOTHING to do with it.
I had a male friend who had to get special permission to get invited to a baby shower for his best (female) friend, because he was the only guy in her peer group and the organizers assumed he didn't care because of his gender. (That brings up a whole host of issues on genderered-spaces and male privilege and whatnot, but for the most part, I'm with him.)
Thank you for such a good examination of the gender roles of apologies.
I'm a horrible unnecessary-apologizer myself. (And damn if that doesn't invite people to question my masculinity all the freakin' time. I mean, question my sincerity, please, but leave my gender identity out it!)
The worst part of all my apologizing is that it actually creates apology inflation that devalues mea culpas for my genuine screw-ups (which are common, but not as common as my apologies).
So hell yes, I'm not sorry. Not even a little bit.
Yeah, my boyfriend has a problem with excess apologizing too. I know what you mean about the inflation, ha ha. We try to catch it when one of us is doing it, and that always leads to a cycle of "don't apologize, you apologize too much, blah blah." The other day I tried to really apologize for something I felt super bad about, but it took a while for me to get it across that it wasn't an apology, it was an apology.
After that I got frustrated and said we should just cut to the chase and pick a word that one of us can reply with if the other one is apologizing unnecessarily. Randomly, that word is "silverbird." So if one of us says we're sorry out of habit the other one will just say "silverbird." It is working fairly well. It's helping break me of my tic (I don't know about him) and it keeps us from doing the "you shouldn't say sorry so much" dance all the time.
I agree.
However, I would also like to point out the differences culture can make.
I grew up being required to be very polite, to apologize and not to brag about my accomplishments (this is for both men and women).
When I moved abroad I discovered my quiet, polite style was considered bad instead of good. The fact that I apologized or did not brag made me seem as a weak person whereas things like interrupting someone while they were talking (a major faux-pas for me) where not considered rude. This also has to do with space. Western white men take up a huge amount of space in public transportation, almost crushing you, but are paradoxically afraid of interactions such as hugging and kissing from friends as a form of greeting.
By this I do not mean non-Western countries are a paradise, just that the whole "the female is polite" becomes very annoying when men are encouraged to be impolite or their impolite behavior is normalized.
I think that part of the reason that western men are more comfortable taking up space to the point of crushing other people than they are with physical affection has to do with the false dichotomy between "masculine" dominance and "feminine" emotion. Which is silly.
Your mentioning public transit reminds me of an experiment my girlfriend tried while riding the bus. She was tired of being squashed by men who would sit next to her and spread out, so one day she stopped accommodating them by taking up less space herself. They would sit down next to her and she would stay rigid, occupying the space she was in before. They couldn't deal, and would get up and move to a different seat.
Part of the men are rude and women are polite dynamic is that women are expected to make room for men, and it throws off those expectations when women don't do that.
You know, I tried that myself and they never move for me. Maybe it's because I don't take up that much space to begin with so I'm not THAT much all up in their space, but there's definitely awkward touching going on, all the way to my stop (sometimes I get uncomfortable and move and sometimes I just sit there to see what'll happen, and nothing does). I wonder why the difference in results?
"Along with not initiating eye contact or breaking it first, stepping aside or altering your path to avoid a collision..."
Saturday at was at a mall with a man, it had quite a few people in it and he was weaving about, and slipping through small places. (He's a small man.) I became irritated trying to follow him and he teased me saying "You aren't very good at this!"
I used to be pretty good at it into early high school, but I became aware of the power dynamics and made a conscious choice to behave in a more dominant manner. I explained to him that I walk a straight path and he followed me instead. (How-to: Stand up straight, head up high, look forward with a purposeful expression, square your shoulders, and take crisp, somewhat mechanical steps.)
I also try to avoid being the one who looks away first when I find myself locking eyes with random men, and I don't move when they subtly try to expand their space by slowly moving into mine (trying to make me uncomfortable enough to move away.) The problem with this is sometimes, somehow they think I am flirting with them, even when I'm completely ignoring them and am simply not letting them push me around.
To elaborate, my theory is that some men believe that if they maneuver themselves to be physically closer to a woman, and she does not move away, then she is essentially saying "yes, that's ok with me". These particular men then inch closer and closer, each time waiting for a negative reaction. No reaction at all is taken as a sign to continue and if you do nothing at all (no positive or negative signals) then you may suddenly find yourself with an arm around your shoulder.
I have tested this at parties, it really happens.
Do men really expect women who are interested in them to be so passive in the courtship process that they will say and do nothing, just allowing the man to act upon them?
Do men really expect women who are interested in them to be so passive in the courtship process that they will say and do nothing, just allowing the man to act upon them?
Some men do, yes. Men I've dated. men my friends have dated.
It really sucks when that attitude is combined with the fact that women are socialized to be passive and polite.
One of the trickier parts of sexual violence prevention is that I think both men and women need to be educated on the gender dynamics that are involved in courtship. Education for men would include that sometimes women have a hard time saying no, and that a neutral reaction should not be interpreted as consent. Only yes means yes. Education for women would include practice in different ways of being more assertive.
The second part, the education for women, it what's tricky, because it comes kind of close to putting the blame on the passive party. It's kind of like, "learn to protect yourself by not wearing short skirts and staying out of the bad parts of town." However, I do think that it is really necessary for women to talk about how to express themselves and be more assertive and how to ditch the pressure to be polite when somebody is violating your personal boundaries. In an ideal world, high school sex ed would include a unit on how to communicate, including how to say no, and why it's important to wait for a yes.
I was just thinking about this sort of thing, because I tend to do it a lot. For instance, someone could bump into me, and I'll instinctively say, "sorry." What's with that?
I wanted to write a blog post on something along the lines of "own your space", but TypePad says "no way" (suggestions on navigating this, anyone?) when I try to post stuff. Because my wrestling hobby keeps me in contact with a lot of men, I noticed a phenomena not familiar to me because I dont have brothers. Farting.
Many of my male friends see nothing wrong with letting one rip in an enclosed area or right next to me. In fact, they seem to find it downright hilarious, and these are grown men.
Now, I don't consider myself terribly uptight, but I'd like to not have my nostrils infiltrated with offensive odor if it can be avoided. Yet time after time, I find myself innocently inhaling some air, only to be taken aback by the scent of someone's flatulence. I'll usually cover my nose, demanding a confession until one of the guys owns up with a laugh as if proud!
Now, I like a good lowbrow joke as much as the next person, but come on! Do some men feel more entitled to their space, that they feel free to pollute the air, when a simple "fart walk" could prevent it?
Sorry to rant on such a highbrow topic here...
No, actually, I'm going to keep on apologizing for things. Apologies are some of the most sincere gestures we have. Sure, they may be seen as signs of weaknesses, but that's a problem with our culture. To apologize takes extraordinary strength. It's admitting you're wrong. And this needs to happen MORE.
Along the same lines, I also think everyone needs to take up less space. I didn't want to comment on that because I knew I'd get yelled at for it, like I probably will for this post. But come on. There are few people who piss me off than loud, obnoxious jackasses who, in your words, "sprawl out on the bench, spread their arms on the back of the bench, extend their legs out, even if their knees end up invading the space of a woman sitting next to them." Why the hell should we emulate those people? They're why people hate America!
Stop conflating feminism with rudeness.
Wow. First, if you read my post, I encourage people to apologize when an apology is really in order. But why should women apologize when a man bumps into them (as most do) or because there was a fire alarm or a traffic jam that made them late? I just suggest that if it's not your fault, then don't apologize for it. And I think many men need to learn to apologize more when something is their fault.
And when I'm walking down the sidewalk toward a man, why must it always be my responsibility to move out of the way? I'm no less entitled to the space than he is just because he has a dick. These gendered uses of language and of space are a part of the patriarchal system that values us differentially based on our genitalia, and I call bullshit.
I'm not advocating that people be rude or obnoxious. Stop skimming my posts and imposing your interpretation on them. If you read carefully, I haven't encouraged anyone to be rude.
Some women apologize for everything they do -- in the end they are basically apologizing for being women. Which is bullshit and has nothing to do with rudeness.
I have started to make a point of calling actual rude people out; for instance, if I'm halfway out the door and a guy tries to go into the door, I'll ask him if he really expects me to go back inside so he can enter. (To be fair, women do this too.) These people are usually so flabbergasted to be called out that they just stand aside.
Oh God, this happens to me on elevators and buses all the time. I will be trying to come out, or get off, and people will literally walk right into me. Now I am only 5ft tall, a small person, and it happens that other females do this to me too, everyone does, male and female alike. Of course, I am too shy and nervous to say anything, and I just end up stepping back in, or moving aside so that I don't get knocked over. Lately, however, I have found myself muttering curses under my breath and walking away pissed off, and sadly, the next person I deal with doesn't get that usually pleasant smile that they're used to.
This happens to me all the time too! I used to be quiet about it but now a days I shoulder into them back harder and tell them to wait their fucking turn. Probably not the safest way to go about it but it sure makes me feel better!
Just to clarify: It's not that I think women need to shut up and stop apologizing and get back to their little corners. I think men need to stop being too loud, being too forceful (notice how this often goes hand in hand with sexism?), and generally douchebagging their way through life.
And that's another thing. Why is it women's responsibility to correct this? Why blame women? This makes no sense to me.
"And that's another thing. Why is it women's responsibility to correct this? Why blame women? This makes no sense to me."
I completely agree!!!
Hegemonic standards of masculinity and patriarchy in this country require men to be domineering and unyielding when it comes to apologies and admitting they are wrong. This is a serious problem, as it makes compromise and change incredibly difficult, if not impossible.
Women tend to be more accepting and willing of compromise. Apologizing is not always such a negative thing - it's the never apologizing that's more of a problem!
It's just another way of looking at it.
I guess I didn't think I was blaming women for the way they've been socialized, but it's an interesting theory. I didn't intend for it to come off that way at all.
I do think that men should apologize more, and should share their space. But the fact is, in most cases, no amount of preaching at them or nagging them about it is going to do any good. The fact is, we don't control what they do. But we do control what we do. And we can consciously work to overcome the way we've been socialized to act submissive and like we're less-than. Because acting like you're less-than is a fabulous way to support the patriarchy, and I'm so not into supporting the patriarchy.
Oh my Jesus I so relate. Well, I've been on both sides. I had a roommate in college who was very apologetic to me. I told her "Stop apologizing for everything! You've done nothing wrong!"
I wasn't always assertive, though. I have my dad to thank for always telling me to make eye contact with people, speak up, etc. I had to start with making eye contact for a second, then built up to 3, and now I almost like to lock eyes with guys and just see who breaks eye contact first. It feels pretty damn good being assertive!
There's a great book out, several years old now so some of my might know it. It's called She's Not There by Jenny Boylan, and it's her autobiography as a trans person. So so interesting. Anyway, at the start of that book, she notes how women often speak as if they are perpetually asking a question. She is a professor, and says so many of her young female students introduce themselves in a way that sounds like, "Hi I'm Anna? And I'm a junior? And... I'm an education major?" I didn't really notice it before her book, but now I catch women, especially young women, doing it all the time. As Boylan said in her book, don't question yourself, own your name, your identity! Pretty powerful stuff. Like apologizing, I feel like introducing yourself or sharing your ideas in such a non-assertive way, and in a way that seems to literally be posing your statement as if to simultaneously ask, "Am I OK? Am I right? Is it OK that I am saying this? Am I smart enough?" is apologizing for speaking, being there, giving your opinion, etc.
Oh, Kate Bornstein does this great bit where she describes her voice training when she was transitioning. Basically her coach said "first, you need to talk at a higher pitch," and each time Bornstein raised it she was like, "no, higher." The second bit of advice was to end every sentence with a question mark. So apparently all it takes to talk like a woman is to have a high-pitched voice, be constantly asking questions that aren't questions, and apologize incessantly. Oh, and smile all the time, but never initiate eye contact.
So apparently all it takes to talk like a woman is to have a high-pitched voice, be constantly asking questions that aren't questions, and apologize incessantly. Oh, and smile all the time, but never initiate eye contact.
Yeah, I hear you. I actually had the opposite problem at my first job back in the early 1980s.
My speaking style was , and still is, fairly direct and straightforward. I thought I was speaking like a normal human being (silly me!) but I soon discovered that I was talking "like a man" (or maybe "like a bitch"?). Some of the men at my new job were immediately defensive when I presented any ideas to them in a direct manner. So, I learned how to put on these feminine mannerisms (always present ideas as questions, not statements, always go up at the end of a sentence so that everything sounds like a question) when dealing with a man who had these issues. And there's another long post that I could write about being conflicted about modifying my personal style in order to get things done. (When do the ends justify the means? Am I being flexible or just manipulative?)
Oh, and one of my managers did actually ask me to "smile more often" in one of my performance reviews. On the bright side, he heard my rebuttal to this suggestion and agreed that it was a sexist request! So, chalk up one victory for standing up for yourself.
I thought this was a generational thing that would be gone by now. Most of my male co-workers who were my age or younger did not seem to be put off by my not having these "feminine" mannerisms of speech. I'm actually kind of surprised that any young women would continue to speak in this way. But then I'm often surprised that things in this world have not changed nearly as much as I thought they would.
Anyway, this is a bit off track from your original post about women who apologize too often and too profusely. I agree with you on that point, too. Seems like we'd reach a happy medium middle if men apologized more often and women apologized less often.
When I first graduated from college, I worked for a while as a tele-fundraiser for an environmentalist organization. When I was hired, I got a crash-course on how to get people to donate as much money as possible in as short a time as possible. It was masterwork psychological manipulation. The script I started with should go in a social psych textbook, but anyways...
The Major Thing everybody had to learn was to avoid using up-tones when asking questions. Up-tones make you sound unsure of yourself, so when we were making calls, we were supposed to always use down tones, even when asking actual questions! It felt very weird and was hard to get used to, especially when asking questions constantly (to get people to say "yes" as many times as possible before asking them for money).
If using down-tones for questions is one way to make yourself sound stronger and more sure of yourself, just imagine what effect using up-tones for statements has...
After reading this post and the comments I'm definitely going to try and change a few things. Like moving out of the way-not anymore, thanks. Sometimes I will, but when I walk up and down stairs, I hold the railing, because I trip easily and would prefer not to. So sometimes if someone else is coming the opposite way, I move even if it means letting go and feeling not so great about possibly falling. Most of the time I do keep going, but now I'm going to stay where I want.
And eye contact. Sometimes I have a really difficult time with it. With my mom, I can keep it, no problem. But with some people I just can't. And weird enough, I do find it easy to keep eye contact with some men I find attractive. I'd think I'd avoid eye contact. Maybe after recognizing my problem a while ago, I've been getting better...I hope. Sometimes holding eye contact just feels intense.
"It seems to me that my female friends and colleagues apologize a lot, and for things that aren't even their fault"
Wow thanks for that. I was just thinking about that the other day actually. At my workplace, we recently launched a new website and we're encouraging our coworkers to provide us with their feedback on it. I recieved an e-mail from a female coworkers with her feedback, which I really appreciated. However, she started her email with comments like "I'm sorry if this might sound confusing", "I think some of these points you might find silly" and "I'm not an expert on these things..."
The thing is, her comments were definitely not silly. They were valid, strong comments and I benefited a lot from them. I just felt that by prefacing her comments with apologies, she undermined her authority and it weakened whatever (good) things she had to say.
I think Deborah Tannen would say that the female style of apologies, uptones, etc. is an attempt to keep the status balanced between people present and to communicate that they are equal. In contrast, the male style of speaking is an attempt to either one-up the other person present or avoid being in a down position.
She argues that neither style in and of itself is superior; problems arise when women speak in a typically female style and are judged according to typically male norms. And FWIW, she emphasizes that these are socialized behaviors based on how we are raised, not innate tendencies.
That said, since in the workplace I am viewed based on male norms, I have made a considerable effort in written and spoken communications to avoid this type of self-deprecation. It's a difficult habit to break...
Yeah, I think it would be bizarre to claim that any of these behaviors having to do with how we navigate physical and conversational space are innate. It's obviously a socialized dynamic.
And when you have kids, you can see them being "trained" into these kinds of behaviors from a very early age, even if you are fighting it. My girls are told to "smile" all the time, by complete strangers. We also had a little run-in with the teachers at daycare who weren't requiring any kind of apology from the (male) bully who was tormenting every kid in the class, but when my stepdaughter would finally retaliate late in the afternoon after he had knocked over her block tower, ripped her picture, pulled her hair, and shoved sand down into her friends jacket on the playground, for some reason she was required to apologize. I'm not advicating that she be allowed to lose her temper and knock him down with no consequences, but he wasn't required to apologize for all the things he had done all day. I told the teacher that we expect her to learn non-violent ways of resolving conflict and to apologize when she loses her temper, but that it was absolutely unacceptable that he wasn't held to the same standards. They acted like I was being all oversensitive, even though other parents (of boys and girls) were complaining about the same kid.
I agree that kids of both genders should be taught to apologize when they're at fault and to share their space, but I'm not OK with requiring girls to apologize all the time and defer to boys' needs for space when their own is clearly not valued.
Actually, I bet there are lots of people who would say these gendered approaches to communication are innate. Probably even the preschool teacher you reference -- "Oh, boys will be boys!" There are probably even evolutionary psychologist "studies" and MRI imaging that purport to prove this sort of thing.
I'm so glad you stood up to the teacher. How can someone involved in early childhood education be so unaware?
Yeah, I'm sure there are a lot of people who buy into the essentialist view. I find it incredibly ironic when people spout the "boys will be boys" line even while they're chastising the girls for engaging in "boylike" behavior and repeatedly reminding the girls to apologize and be polite. If these things just come natural, then what's with all the training?
I have friends in Education who say a lot of this stuff is found in the curriculum. Although it's generally represented as "theory" it's pretty well accepted as "fact." Depressing.
I definitely agree that women and men communicate differently, but when I really think about it, my experience in college has not at all reflected what you experienced in your meeting. Of course, that doesn't mean your point is not valid, but I wonder if these sorts of things are changing with increased percentages of educated women,etc.
Actually, it was a faculty meeting... =( But everyone in the meeting was quite a bit older than me, so it may be a generational thing.
We bend over backwards to make sure our two (very young) daughters aren't being socialized to always defer to males, but it would be encouraging to know that this is a general trend. I do know that the girls-have-to-smile-all-the-time thing isn't going away, as very young girls are constantly being exhorted to smile by complete strangers.
Random anecdotal stuff: I am involved in an academic field where energetic conversation, discussion, and debate is essential to the courses students take. My own speaking style can sometimes ramble a little bit, but I usually speak with a lot of confidence and I don't preface my statements with the practically requisite "I don't know if I'm reading this right, sorry, but what if..." hedging, unless I'm actually asking a specific question about an interpretation of a specific bit of text (which I will then quote). Recently I moved to a new institution and an entirely new city, and I feel like I've actually been having a hard time making friends in part because I don't do that hedging -- all the other women (which accounts for anywhere between 15 and 30 percent of the population in each class) make a big show of doing this apologizing thing before every comment, so much so that one of my professors even took time out of the discussion to beg people in general not to do it. But when I don't do it, there's an almost palpable sense that I am somehow being brash or cocky. I honestly don't really know what to do, because I want to be able to navigate this social space effectively in a way that accomplishes all of the following: 1) clearly communicating my ideas, 2) not bowing to gender stereotypes during the discussion, and 3) having the whole thing be a pleasant and friendly exchange for me and my peers. Is it to some extent impossible to really accomplish all three of these at once?
Yeah, I've noticed for a long time that I do this.. compared to every male I've had in my life, who hasn't.
It's so interesting. I never really made that connection that it's what people in a lower place on the hierarchy do - apologize to those who sit above them. But it's absolutely true, isn't it.
I should really try to stop. It's difficult though. It's become quite normal for me, and I can say the same thing about many of my female friends..
The whole moving out of the way for men thing is bizarre to me - in my experience it's the opposite. Men want to be the gentlemen and get out of the way for me (the so-called "female privilage"). Of course I've had men who expected me to move, but it isn't the norm for me.
As for apologizing it's a tough one. I do it alot, but then so does my spouse. I always thought it was a personality thing. But actually you are right.
Yeah, in my experience if it's a face to face confrontation, like in a doorway, they'll often make this exaggerated "gentlemanly thing," but more often than not, if you're walking down the sidewalk and your path is going to cross with a man, you'll find yourself automatically altering your path to avoid him. And if you don't he'll almost walk right into you, and look at you strangely. This happens constantly on campus. As I was walking from one class to another this afternoon I passed this group of three guys who could not bring themselves to walk single file, so as I approached them and refused to step off the sidewalk and walk in the mud in my new boots, the one closest to me ended up hitting me with his shoulder, and then didn't apologize or even acknowledge it. I didn't apologize either. It's a two-way sidewalk, and I shouldn't have to walk in the mud.
I've noticed this with older men. They'll get out of the way and sort of gesture me down the hall...if that makes sense? Or open doors for me, or try to lift heavy things for me...which is annoying. I can lift it and open the door myself, I'm probably in better shape than you anyway and would be exerting LESS energy. If I don't ask for your help then I don't need it.
Too bad so many feminists don't practice what they preach...
http://www.shadysadie.com/2009/01/21/that-annoying-apology/
Some of the best advice I've ever had was given to me by Professor John Dixon in my first year ethics class. I had tentatively raised my hand during a debate and prefaced my comments with "I don't know, but..."
He immediately stopped me and said "Of course you know. If you didn't know, you wouldn't be saying so. Never say 'I don't know' or 'I'm no expert' or 'This is just my opinion but'. Especially as a woman. Say what you have to say."
Women should always try to carry themselves with a certain amount of confident swagger–in public, in business meetings, etc. I rarely get marginalized because I am female. You don't need to bust into a room and punch the guys in the balls, just have that attitude of, "This is what I think and it's important." Even when walking down the street; men who look like they might be ready to make some crude comment quickly move out of the way without saying a word. You don't have to have a rep as some ball-busting bitch; it's just a silent sort of respect you command.
Wow, I just made 2 allusions to punching men in the balls. It's symbolic not literal!
Yes - it is absolutely learned behaviour for both men and women!
I used to work in a nursery and the boys were very rarely reprimanded for darting about and pushing other children. If the girls retaliated however - they always got told off. I even heard another member of staff say to a little girl who had just shoved a boy for kicking her and pulling her hair, "Now that is just not ladylike behaviour is it? What WILL the boys think of you when you grow up"!!!!!!
Also - just yesterday (because I will not allow men to take up my space), I was shoved out of the way, twice. I said in response to one of these men "Oh yes - because a man should always be gievn right of way over a woman, shouldn't he"!! He looked at me, at first, like I was mad - and then with a sort of realization that his unconcious behaviour clearly, was unfair. Felt good.
I don't go looking to annoy men!! I am just very confident and have seen this terrible dynamic for years - so I will never move out of the way (because most women still do) for anyone unless they show some effort to do so, too.
Also - yes..the language thing. I am CONSTANTLY interrupted by men - but I carry on talking over them if they do this (and yes - I am seen as rude and argumentative for doing so). And in mixed company - if a man talks..all the women hush and listen. The men will not listen, if a woman talks.
And yes...finally, nearly every woman I have met, will unconciously defer to the man in conversation. "It was a great holiday, wasn't it?"...questioning. Whereas the man will say "It was a great holiday"....statement. Again - I will deliberately not make my voice higher-pitched to make it sound like a question and always pitch my comments to sound like statements. But it's sad I have to do this.
I think a comment I saw by Twisty on 'I Blame The Patriarchy' is very true.
"When a man says no, it's final. When a woman says no...it's the start of a negotiation" Inspired!!
Hmmm... I'm male, and I have this same tendency to use submissive speech patterns. Should I try to change that?
Haha are you Canadian?? :)
I agree! Very interesting anthropological point. Here's a column I wrote about it, in case you're interested!
http://cornellsun.com/section/opinion/content/2008/11/06/apology-not-accepted
i've just finished reading your column
i totally agree with you, i think that constantly apologizing does lower the self esteem.
the way you concluded it was AWESOME!!
i love that you commented on the book 'why men love bitches'. I've read that book and it was just... it gave me a gross feeling. [there were some okay points, but i found that it tended to be a little over the top]
I remember discussing this in a class once. I don't remember which one exactly, but I have it narrowed down to Sociology of Gender, Social Psychology or Linguistics (can't think of any other it could have been). I admit that I am guilty of it (sorry! wait...).
I find it rather funny that many posters here talk about women shouldn't move out of the way when on a collision coarse with a man. This is one area that the supposed feminist agenda on "equality" of men and women is shown to be a farse. By arguing that a female shouldn't "step aside", one in essence is arguing for a matriarchal version of what they believe is happening to them from men (i.e. patriarch). I hate to break it to you, but this is obviously hypocritical. For "equality", one shouldn't view this as a mutually exclusive event (i.e. one steps aside only), "Well if he doesn't move for me, neither will I for him!" I'd love to see this applied to equal pay methods... "Well if he gets paid more for the same work... I'll try to make him inferior by trying to get paid more for the same work!"
Once again this website is proving to me that it's nothing about equality, it's about creating a matriarch.
Hypocrites.
Before you start passing judgement, I would suggest you read the original post on this issue.
Nobody is suggesting that men should always yield the right of way to women. But the fact that women are always expected to alter their "coarse" (you might want to check your spelling there) is ridiculous. I am no less entitled to walk on the sidewalk than you are just because you have a dick. When the sidewalk is wide enough for two people, and the man just doesn't want to alter his path to avoid a collision with me, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to step off into the mud. In the original post, you'll find that I advocate for the person who has the most space on their side, or for whom it's the easiest to alter their path, to do so, regardless of gender. But if you read the hidden camera studies I refer to, you'll see that somewhere between 79-92% of the time, when a woman's path is intersecting with a man's path in a public place, he refuses to alter his path, and she is expected to get out of his way. And women are socialized to automatically do this, without even noticing it. This is one more example of the way our culture values men and women differently, and feminism is about changing that. If you have a problem with that, then perhaps this isn't the right blog for you.
And regarding your last comment: generally speaking you'll find what you go looking for. If you're convinced that feminism is about "creating a matriarch," then it really doesn't matter what we say, as you'll see and hear what you believe. But I do wonder who this "matriarch" you think we're trying to create would be? Some kind of female Frankenstein monster? Did you perhaps mean "matriarchy"? It's a very odd thing to say.
And I, for one, welcome our new matriarch overlords. ;)
Apologizing is one tactic in submissive communication -- a way we inform others that we are no threat to them. When I first began self-defense teaching, this was considered an aspect of feminine speech -- part of our conditioning to show our submission to male status (power). Now, it is understood that speech models are better viewed as dominant and submissive, as males in subordinate positions will default to the submissive model regarding the other males with status. Learning empowered speech is a key component for all of us, for personal safety and personal effectiveness.... thanks for the posts!
does saying "oops..." or making a noise that sort of sound likes oops, count?
i have definitely noticed that in the past, i used to apologize for EVERYTHING!!!!
even upon bumping someone's bag [or anything like that] i would mutter a 'sorry.'
I can't remember how long its been since i modified my ways, but now i tend to only apologize if i directly run into someone...
I don't make anymore speech-related sorries either....
there's also that thing where they say that women take up less room than men...
I used to make myself as small as possible, due to not wanting to touch anyone on the bus or while sitting on a park bench [etc...]
But i realized that as a woman, i am expected to feel like i should give all the room to the man sitting right beside me.
now i think that is nonesense.
Why should we apologize for anything?
men do it!
I now make it a point to take up as much room as i need. No more sitting completely cramped in the very corner of the seat.
No more apologizing for things that i think don't even matter that much.
thank you very much for posting this article,
i started trying to modify my behaviour a little while ago- but your post clarifies a bunch of issues that have caused anxieties for me in the past [while i have tried to not make myself seem so damn small all the time]
by the way, just as a side musing, i think that this sort of body language...conduct is engrained in the human psyche, in our culture anyway.
Luckily, things have gotten better for women so we can finally try to break away from that pattern-
i know that i'm going to try to change, its more comfortable- and don't we have enough to worry about in life?
I've always noticed that men have moved out of the way for ME. I figured it was because they were trying to be polite to the "little lady." Not only will they move out of the way, but they'll give the ol' "after you" gesture with their hands and smile. It's strange to think of a man just bumping past me, or looking at me strange if I don't get out of the way.