One of the most surreptitiously anti-feminist strains of thought propagated by pop culture and other mainstream influences is the idea that not only are women supposed to be in competition with other women (for male attention, I guess?), but that other women rarely make very good friends -- they're bitchy, they're sneaky, they're catty, they're petty, they think they're too good and they talk shit behind your back...
Basically, they're not as cool as your guy friends. Now they know how to chill out and just have a good time. None of the drama that comes with stupid bitches, nahmean?
Well, Cheetos certainly seems to catch my drift. In fact, they've made bitch-on-bitch hate the foundation of their latest TV ad campaign, as most of you have probably already seen.
Links: Soccer Moms video Pigeons Attack video
While these mindless commercials are what got me thinking I should post, really they just stirred up a lot of other thougths floating around my head about the ways in which girls (and women) are expected (or seemingly feel compelled) to belittle their bonds with other girls or throw girls under the bus, in terms of their inability to be good friends.
I remember being a middle and high schooler, when it was a cool thing to identify as one of those girls who was "only friends with guys." Because acknowledging that all other girls are catty little bitches that will stab you in the back by nature signified that you were chill/down/low-maintenance/just one of the guys yourself.
And recently, I read a post by Melissa over at Shakesville , in which she thanked the women of Golden Girls for showing her how beautiful and awesome female friendships could be. It was only once I read those words that I realized it was something that so painfully needed to be said. And it struck me as sad that such would be the case. That even though all of us would call other women some of our closest friends, we operate under a myth that women and girls, by their nature, tend to be a high-maintenance, less cool, drama-prone type of friend.
And all this from a Cheetos commercial! Talk about a humorless feminist..
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You're not alone: I just saw that today and my brain exploded.
Honestly, the thing about feminism for which I am the most grateful is that it brought me out of that "every woman for herself" mentality. Being able to look at/engage with women as sisters rather than competition or "other" (as in "I'm not like that high-maintenance chick, I'm cool!" or "I'm not like that skank, I have self-respect!") is so much more rewarding.
Personally, I've found the major issue is not my belief that female friends are somehow inferior, but rather that they, perhaps due to societal influences, seem to prefer the backstabbing/catty route. I never realized I was the kind of girl who is "only friends with guys" until I got the nerve to stand up for myself, pruned out the "friends" that were making me miserable, and realized I had only one or two female friends left, and tons of male friends. The remaining women, of course, are the friends-for-life types, but I was amazed by how many women I knew thought friendship meant criticizing my appearance or using me as the friend that makes them look better, flaking constantly while insisting I be on time, constantly berating me, mocking me behind my back... My question is not why women feel compelled to reject other women as friends, but rather why so many women feel compelled to act so shitty towards their supposed friends.
Well, quite frankly, a lot of people ARE shitty.
A few thoughts on cattiness:
I'm trying to really observe how stereotypical behavior is coded depending on whether a man or woman is doing it. I've observed examples of men being catty, but somehow, people seem to process and label it differently.
For example: I was teaching English to a colleague of P (my hubby). This guy would make little rude comments--for example at work he announced that, "P really should get me a new computer". See, I have a 10 year old powerbook that I'm very proud of and I love. I rebuilt part of her and souped her up and she runs fine for most tasks but is a tiny bit sluggish online at times.
But anyway he made this comment out loud as a joke, making it sound like:
1) P is a cheap screw
2) I "need" P to buy me stuff, which I don't because I have my own damn money
3) we are a bunch of cave freaks for not having the latest crap.
Catty.
But see P didn't call it catty. He called the guy a snake (whatever that means) and from here on out he is not to be trusted. P went so far as to recommend that I didn't mention any unnecessary details (e.g. planned trips) lest he blab about it at work as he has leaked other personal stuff about us.
What was interesting to me was my husband's response to really distance himself from this guy, whereas I could totally see myself still hanging out with this person if he were my colleague (I mean otherwise he's a pretty nice person).
So it got me thinking that maybe it's not so much the cattiness or backstabbing that is the problem, but the response to it. Are some of us willing to put up with this for the sake of maintaining friendships?
I can honestly say 1 only have 1 backstabby/catty friend like this. And I've known her for 20 years...so I'm sorta fitting the profile on my hypothesis.
When someone is called a snake, it means they should not be trusted. It appears in stories in some cultures, where the snake is cunning and opportunistic.
Maybe you can chalk it up to the fact that women are often taught to be nice all the time, hence they try to maintain the friendship and try not to break it despite the friend being catty/backstabbing.
Whereas perhaps men don't feel that pressure to be nice and are thus brutal and frank, ie failure to comply will not be tolerated. This may also account for men being more aggressive and direct in their dislike for someone, whereas women may prefer a more passive -aggressive way to resolve problems as people usually frown on women being aggressive/angry.
I have to agree with Timothy
Women are supposed to be nice to everybody, even people who treat them like shit.
Men are not under the same social pressure.
But we ARE under pressure to save face and to never tolerate insults and abuse.
So, when your husband's friend insulted you (which is basically what he was doing to you with the computer comment) your husband was free to react to that dis by cutting him out of your lives.
If it was reversed, you'd feel that you HAD to be nice to that person, even if they'd dissed your husband the same way that the guy dissed you.
Perhaps that explains a phenomenon I've often observed in women - they have "friends" (female and male alike) who insult and ridicule them in ways that few men would tolerate from their "friends".
Granted, that's purely anecdotal observation of people I personally know, but it does seem to be a gender constant.
The only guy I know who tolerates casual abuse from his friends like that is a closeted gay man who has a wife and dates transsexual men on the side - everybody else I know who has "friends" who treat them like crap on a regular basis and who keeps those people as "friends" are women.
I don't think that has to do with them having a vagina as much as it has to do with which kinds of friends you choose.
On the commercials.
Neither pair of women were "friends" per se.
The first two were parents who's kids were on the same soccer team.
The woman in the white outfit was a condescending racist jerk, who channels her arrogance by bragging about her kid.
She was being a real jerk - not to mention a racist - to the second woman, and that's why the second woman expressed her anger by messing up the first woman's outfit, in a way that would not be noticed by her until later (or until somebody else saw it and pointed it out).
Passive aggressive - yes, because that's the only socially acceptable way for women to be angry.
The same with the second scenario - woman number one is loudly chattering away at the top of her lungs on her cellphone (I know I personally HATE it when folks do that) while the second woman was just trying to have a peaceful cup of coffee.
So, the second woman threw cheetos under her chair, to attract the nearby flock of pigeons so as to drive the noisy chatterbox out of the cafe.
Again, these women weren't "friends" - just two people at a cafe, one of whom was ruining the other's peaceful cup of coffee with her obnoxious cell phone use.
But, they did go with the passive aggressive thing again - the only socially acceptable way for a woman to object to another woman's obnoxiousness was through indirectly attacking her.
Yes, there's sexism there - and a reflection of the very real sexism in society that makes women act out passive aggressively rather than being straightforward with their anger.
But neither commercial is a comment on female friendships.
I agree with you. I don't understand the link between female friendships and these Cheetos commercials. I don't think Cheetos is implying at all that all women hate each other. The passive aggressive thing, sure, but I kind of see that less as a gender thing and more as a cultural "it's rude to point out rude behavior" thing, at least with the pigeon thing.
The soccer moms, yeah, okay, passive aggressive. The pigeon commercial. I don't know. If that person was male, how would anything really change? What are you supposed to do in that situation? But then again, I actually really like that commercial.
I see guys doing what I'd define as "picking on each other" all the time, only it's slightly more aggressive and much more direct than the passive behavior being described here. For instance joking about other guys (who are present at the time) having small dicks, feigning like they'll punch each other, etc. Even though these guys are supposed to be friends there's a definite "I'm tougher than you" element to it.
Likewise I've seen girls do the same thing; particularly the women I work with are the ones who are shouting over the tops of their cubicles things like "Is your fat ass stuck in that chair?", so on and so forth. These women are (supposedly) very good longterm friends with each other as well.
In my mind this sort of pseudo-conflict is very different from women being passive-aggressively nasty to other women. From what I've seen (and I don't think I know any women who actually DO act this way, just know a lot of women who've gotten this treatment from former "friends" of theirs) women reserve the trash-talking and subtle sabotage for people they genuinely dislike, for whatever reason. A lot of times I've seen women "bond" with a new, theoretically "better" peer group only to turn around and trash her former group of friends. Making and breaking social alliances is a technique used as form of indirect warfare...it's a bit like politics really.
And it's probably advantageous for women to be indirect and subtle because serious direct conflict (physical or verbal) between women is for the most part strongly discouraged by society.
I definitely agree with you on this one. The cheetos commercial is absolutely annoying. And I think one of the points that you're trying to make is that women are taught to like men better (or really girls are taught to like boys better). So regardless if the women in the commercial were friends already, it's another example of women being mean to other women, and putting each other down.
I'm so glad you brought this up, too, because I've been fighting this stereotype for at least 15 years (since I was a little middle school feminist).
I've had plenty of friends over the years, and still do, that brag about having more guy friends than girl friends and how they like guys better than girls. The actual choice to have more friends of one gender, is fine, but why is it an accomplishment? Why are we socialized to think that you're "cool" if you don't like being friends with other women.
In my own life, I've tried to point out the importance of friendships with women. It's really important that we support each other, help each other, and listen to each other.
And, for the record, I like women better!
I've never really understood why the catty stereotype is so pervasive, just because I've never experienced much cattiness. Maybe I just pick good girl friends
And this is just anecdotal, but in my own experience I've noticed that male friends are often more outright mean to one another, especially when it comes to something related to masculinity. If a teenage boy decides he wants to do ballet, all of his friends will give him hell for it, but the same is not generally true of a girl who wants to do something like rugby. It seems like males are more into policing each others gender roles. Has anyone else noticed this?
I agree with others who have said that it's more acceptable for men/boys to be direct while women/girls are only supposed to be passive aggressive. So maybe it's more common for men to directly insult each other and for women to do sneaky, backstabby things. The latter is a little more difficult to deal with because you don't know who to trust.
"It seems like males are more into policing each others gender roles. Has anyone else noticed this?"
YES.
AGREED! I freaking HATE the whole "I only have guys friends" shit. It's so hip and edgy you know? Because only GUYS are fucking cool to hang out with. BARF!
I used to have quite the bunch of friends when I was in high school, but allllll the time I'd hear how girls are catty bitches and all hate each other. I always got along with girls though, so I never could understand.
I just think some women are just afraid of each other and afraid of being judged, because who best to decide, and therefore judge, what women's best interests are? Other women.
I have found these commercials to me funny, until that is I began to wonder why ALL of them feature women. Whenever a brand runs commercials featuring only one sex, I get a little suspicious. I then googled my question and found this article, and this site (and just registered, hi).
And you're right. I also appreciate your spot-on summary of this particular "anti-feminist strain of thought."
God, am I sick of the media.
Oh, crap, I forgot to add something.
I wanted to say that this is spot-on because I, myself, used to feel that way until I joined a sorority and realized how wrong I was- that, while there are women who may fit that stereotype, most do not. And many men actually fit it just as well! It was not until I spent a significant amount of time in close contact with a variety of women that I could drop all my negative conceptions of women in general, at which point my path to being a feminist could finally begin. It makes me sad when I meet a woman who still thinks the way I used to. And it's infinitely more tragic that there had to be special circumstances in order for me to like my own gender. Our culture is insane.
I'm tempted to quote Sarah Haskins, here:
"Uh- did you just call yourself Daddy?"
I agree with voluptuous. I don't think these commercials are comments on female relationships and I don't think they are implicating anything deeper. I also don't think passive agressive behavior is a gendered thing, but instead pretty prevalent and realistic in human encounters and relationships.
I think the big message here is that retaining your zen in moments that are trying to your patience is sometimes more rewarding than becoming confrontational. That's all I see, anyway, and it makes me laugh.
Meh, I took it as one person acting like an asshole, and another person doing what we daydream about doing. There might be something in that they're using the stereotype of the soccer-mom or the over chatty woman, but it's not necessarily pitting one woman against another because they both have vulva.
Yeah, I don't think these commercials used the "women-are-catty-not-to-be-trusted-bitches" technique, although the stereotype is definitely pervasive. For example, I pass this billboard every day on my way to work. I live in Louisville, KY and the Derby Museum has a new exhibit that pulls together clothing, hats, accessories (as well as photos of these things) worn to the Derby over the last, lets say, 100 years. Because I love the Derby, I think it sounds interesting. The billboard features two attractive, mid-twenties women from the neck up, one whispering to the other behind a cupped hand. The copy reads "She Wore THAT to Derby!" What the fuck??? This exhibit features items donated from other museums, clothing from people's estates, stuff that has traveled the Atlantic, and the best anyone can do is use two catty women ragging on some unknown individuals fashion sense? Hey assholes, not only have you done a disservice to the exhibit, but you also managed to propogate the ridiculous myth that a woman's natural state is mockery and condescension. Job well done!
I liked the pigeon commerical. The woman on the phone was being shallow and obnoxious, and I felt like she deserved it. Plus, I find swarms of pigeons hilarious.
I confess in my pre-feminist days (age 16 or so), I had a lot more "guy friends" than women friends. I thought I got along better with guys. Then I found out they were trying to get into my pants. Today, the guy friends know better - 'cause when they don't they get blocked. And my female friends are awesome.
That pigeons commercial would have been hilarious if the obnoxious phone-talker was a dude bragging about coercing broads to sleep with him or sexually harassing women on the street.
Along the lines of "women being catty", has anyone seen the previews for a new show about to air on Oxygen network called "Pretty Wicked"? I just saw a short commercial, but apparently it involves a group of physically attractive women who will live together and compete to see who has true inner beauty (that is, they are capable of being nice and docile). Basically, for entertainment's sake, all the women chosen are the types who could be considered "catty" towards other women...for example, one is seen saying, "I can't STAND her!" to emphasize that these are the "bitchy" types, for lack of a better word.
I don't see this as a step in the right direction towards diffusing the ridiculous "catty, backstabbing women" stereotype. Grrr.
That seems true. For example, when straight men beat up gay men. I've never heard of straight women beating up a lesbian as a hate crime. Men are more restricted in their roles and are apparently less tolerant of other men who exhibit traditionally feminine qualities.
Regarding friendship, a 1993 study found that women view their friendships with other women as deeper and better than men view their relationships with other men.
"Gender differences in best friendships", Sex Roles: A Journal of Research , Oct, 1993 by Leigh E. Elkins and Christopher Peterson
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2294/is_n7-8_v29/ai_14853625
Thank you Maggie for bringing the Cheetos commercials to our attention. I couldn't agree with you more. My guy friends are great, but my girl pals are my anchors, my rocks, my ports in a storm, and I try very hard to be the same for them. It is so timely that you brought this up; someone just clued me in to one of the biggest anti-feminist's take on this same thing. That would be Dr. Laura, who in one of her fairly recent website blogs discussed hearing two women in a restaurant talking favorably about another woman, and was so shocked by this that she found it necessary to go over to their table and complement them and then of course to blog about it. I don't listen to her radio show but I'm not the least bit surprised to hear her prehistoric views on women's attitudes and relationships with other women. She does seem to love perpetuating anti-woman stereotypes!