It takes a lot of courage to willingly put yourself out there as a blogger. Feministing.com has recently allowed a whole slew of us to take a step into the blogosphere, but a strange cadence has emerged.
...I apologize for any difficultly in following or the sheer length of the post.
.... if I missed something, my apologies for the double posting.
Sorry for the rant...
Notice a trend?
And these examples are by no means the only ones, merely the most recent. This is not an attack on the aforementioned posters, because their posts were wonderful, but rather a commentary on the community forum as a whole. Community posters, the things you write on the community blog are pertinent, well crafted, insightful, and DESERVE to be there. Those with dissenting opinions, and women in particular, have been taught to apologize for their presence and general tendency to speak their minds. Please fight this! It is something I personally try to unlearn each and every day, and even our wonderful full-time feministing bloggers struggle with the over-apologizing-syndrome, as Courtney has recently noted .
So this is a call to make your posts bold, kick-ass, and, most importantly, unapologetic .
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Thanks for pointing that out. I admit I have a tendency to over-apologize. I recently had the following exchange with a friend:
Her: You apologize too much!
Me: I'm sorry!
Her: You just did it again!
Me: Sorry!
Her: You just did it again! Stop it!
Me: Okay, I'm stopping! Sorry!
Her: ...
Me! Oops! Sorry!
It really is a bad habit that you have to make a conscious effort to break.
Thanks for pointing that out. Unfortunately, these are examples of so-called "feminine speech pattern" that even the smartest ladies I know get caught up in....
Excellent post. A lot of my earlier comments are qualified with an apology, mostly because they tend to be really long. I actually have tried to make a conscious effort to change since Courtney posted about it. I think we all should. I hope this gets featured on the main page.
I second the motion. Actually, I posted on this topic a couple of days before Courtney mentioned it in her post, and I got a surprising amount of negative feedback (on my own blog, mostly) and even a little hate mail. So weird. I wasn't actually advocating being rude, or not apologizing when you've actually done something wrong, but for some reason a lot of people read it that way. And now that I re-read it, I don't really get why they took it that way. It's also interesting that Courtney didn't get negative feedback on the topic, but maybe that's because her post wasn't centered on the topic of apologizing alone.
Great post! Maybe a part of the negative feedback you got was because you framed apologizing as part of an interaction, which absolutely occurs. However people don't like to think that they are players in the heirarchy: men don't want to think they hold too much power and cultivate this appeasing attitude in women, and women don't want to admit that these power differentials affect their behavior.
Where I think my post differs is that people are apologizing in a blog post. They are not in conversation, or in a group, so the invisible majority they are addressing with their apology is the result of those lessons that personal interactions teach us. It's an interesting manifestation: the community site exists for us to say what's on our minds, no matter how scattered, lengthy, or potentially radical those thoughts tend to be. Yet those power differentials still influence us, even in a "safe" feminist space. (I say "safe," because the trolls and comment wars that sometimes ensue are not necessarily the most positive of outcomes)
"Actually, I posted on this topic a couple of days before Courtney mentioned it in her post, and I got a surprising amount of negative feedback (on my own blog, mostly) and even a little hate mail. So weird. I wasn't actually advocating being rude, or not apologizing when you've actually done something wrong, but for some reason a lot of people read it that way."
Rachel - I don't think it's so much that what you wrote about women apologizing that was the problem for the commentors on your blog.
I think it's more that you challenged the patriarchial status quo. Like it or not - non-feminist men have a vested interest in using dominant speech patterns. And non-feminist women, I guess, don't really want to see their own submissiveness in their own speech patterns. Who would?
What you said was important and relevant - and the reactions were fear. Fear of change...even if those changes are good.
That's something I know I do and am trying to work on.
Sorry...(kidding!)
And what people don't see is that there's far, far, far, FAR MORE to the hierarchy than just checkboxes for 'male' vs. 'female.'
It especially turns my stomach when people say "I know so many SMART WOMEN who apologize!" as if whenever I apologize, I lose a goddamn IQ point.
You want to know why I apologize? It's because:
A) I've been diagnosed with social anxiety and a whole slew of other problems so when I find myself in a conversation, "power differentials" are the LAST fucking thing on my mind, and more importantly:
B) Whatever I say is just going to get me fucking yelled at anyway. See that previous thread for an example. I'm willing to goddamn bet that I'm going to be yelled at for this, too.
But I guess I should just stop being an apologizer. (Apologist?)
I agree that men and women are not the only players within the hierarchy, and I don't believe I insinuated so with my comment or my post.
I wasn't trying to condemn anyone with an anxiety disorder with my post. I was making a comment on a trend I had noticed within the community blog.
And I don't think people in general think about power differentials when they are engaged in conversation because they are implicit.
See, this is EXACTLY why I'm sorry. When nobody ever agrees with what I post, no wonder I'm compelled to apologize for my very existence.
I agree with you sometimes. I think people are just motivated to comment more often when they disagree. Don't take it too personally. We like you here.
I am definitely motivated to comment more when I disagree. And not just on this blog, but on all blogs. From just reading my comments, you'd think I was a very disagreeable person. :)
I love feminists for so many reasons. One being that the rant I had going yesterday was not critiqued by another blogger for me being an ass, but because I apologized in a sense for my rant in itself. Although there were plenty of people who got upset at me, but I'm a philosophy kid so I thrive off of arguments, muahaha.
Kala thanks for calling me out on my douchebaggery. I usually pride myself on not apologizing (unless I'm wrong about something), but I think I knew that post was going to ruffle a few feathers.
ugh, thank you so much for saying it! I often stop reading a post when in the first few lines, someone says "sorry, this is my first time posting" or sorry for something.
kala,
this is so fucking true. i half apologized for cursing and sounding very aggressive in a community post a few weeks back, after the first commenter basically told me i was too angry and sounded like an ass...i think a part of me knew immediately after i clicked the "submit" button that the fact that i felt compelled to apologize was a problem.
one thing that i found most problematic about my apology was the fact that i did it because the FIRST (and at that point, ONLY) commenter had disliked what i said...whereas on other community posts i have written, i haven't felt the need to apologize to those who disagreed -- as long as i knew there were other people out there who liked what i said.
i definitely censor most things i say in my writing, as well as in classes and at work, because i am hesitant to be disagreeable.
anyways...thanks for calling out the bullshit.
Thank you for this post. It's a phenomenon I see all the time - from people writing posts and from people making comments - on woman-focused websites.
Women are taught, from a young age, that they are not entitled to voice their opinions, or take up a lot of air time. We are taught we should strive to take up as little public space as possible. I NEVER hear/read men apologizing for politely airing their views in a public forum. But I constantly read comments from women that apologize for their mere existence, or for their perceived length.
Don't be sorry for "writing a novel," or being righteously angry, or venting or being passionate.
Hmm. I tend to apologise constantly when I write things here, and I notice that most of the non-troll men here also apologise for possibly missing the point/ disagreeing with the OP/ being longwinded etc.
I go on an an army forum as well, where the object is to be the first to jump on everybody else's testicles. I guess I prefer over-apologising to under-apologising, because it maintains a sense of civility and circumspectness to the discussion which is easy to lose over teh internetz.
There is definitely a happy medium, though.
Absolutely, but as a member of a group which seldom apologises, I feel that it is better to err on the side of apologising too much than too little.
Personally, I find apologising and "hedging" quite pleasant to read. I suppose it is the same quandary which socialists find themselves in about the working class: the very qualities one admires (generosity, bravery, selflessness) are precisely those instilled by repression, and will cease to apply once repression ceases.
Great post!
I'm a newspaper columnist. One week I addressed a local issue head-on, naming names and pointing out the harm certain leaders are doing in our community. I do that all that time without blinking -- but in this case it was a school principal I was calling out, and for some reason I felt particularly "mean" even though the topic was important and I had all my facts lined up. So.... I made the mistake of stating in my opener how I support those who lead our public schools and how hard it was to call them out on wrong behavior.
I told my husband "I shouldn't apologize in my opener; that's such a bad move." But I did it any way. In all my years of writing, that is the ONLY piece the paper has ever rejected. They flat out refused to print it, even though my facts were well documented and it was an important issue.
What a lesson to trust my instincts.
Likewise, never begin a topic with, "I don't want to offend you, but...." The party is already offended b/c you just told them they should be.
Say what you want to say, and don't back up from it.
This is one of those things that once you realize it is happening, it is hard to ignore. I'm glad it continues to be brought up here, I think that sexist language is an important issue which requires vigilance and dedication to eradicate. The apologizing is just one way women devalue their own opinions and it's an easy habit to slide (or slide back) into.
At work I rewrite about 75% of my emails before sending to remove all the apologies for things I'm not responsible for. Monday I almost apologized for taking so long to respond to an email that was sent Friday evening. I'd actually have to work the weekend to respond more quickly.
It is harder to edit my speech, but now when one of those silly filler apologies slips out I try to follow up immediately with a retraction. Example: "Sorry, I don't think I understand what you mean... actually, no. I'm not sorry, I just don't understand. Can you explain it in more detail?" In the cutthroat world of automotive, apologizing is the same as taking responsibility. The first rule is 'show no weakness'.
Stay strong, feminists.
I think sometimes the posters/commenters on here (and well, everywhere) can be pretty vicious and closedminded. Not to say that there's anything wrong with disagreeing and speaking your mind, but I've seen people full-on bashing others for what they write. I may have even been a part of it at times (for that I do apologize).
Eventually, you get to the point where you apologize preemptively. So maybe this is a lesson to both sides - those who apologize so often and those who create the feelings that they need to.
And just to be clear, I'm NOT suggesting censorship or "biting your tongue" or anything like that. I think we should all speak our minds. But that can be intimidating at times, especially when you're expecting to get attacked for what you say.
-Lilith
(These are my thoughts, btw, I can't speak for the entire ESC).
speakign of apologizing too much.I
went to the state legislature with Planned Parenthood for grass roots lobby days. I was with other activists of varying stripes for 3 days and you wouldn’t believe the shit that these people get offended by. I mentioned that a boss at work made a fried chicken at the white house joke and was jumped by some ass hole demanding to know “How is that appropriate” (that is me bringing it up.) Well first off, were activists and I wanted to know if she knew of some law or something that would help stop it. Instead I just ended up apologizing to her to calm her ass down. I mentioned this in the car and a black woman got offended by it to (even though I made it clear that I bought it up to ask opinions about how to stop it)
Bear in mind that there are real live racists out there that mean to cause harm. Going after someone who is trying to solve problems because they bought up a topic that made you uncomfortable is just stupid. If were so but hurt and touchy and ready to attack each other who fights the other side? I will still volunteer, but next time I hear about some raciest doing something I won’t bother to bring it up at lunch. I guess the raciest will just have to get away with it . I suppose it will have to be the same thing with mentioning anti gay activity or attacking any other group as well.
Speaking as a former editor, I urge women to notice and avoid hedge words: "seems to," "probably," "actually," "I guess," "maybe," and so on.
Language like this is also submissive because it prevents you from stating and owning your point full-on. It is another form of apology.
I completely agree with this. I just finished an MFA in fiction and my thesis is a novel. (Male) colleagues pointed out this type of "hesitation" in my manuscript and suggested I try to pull some of it out. It is taking everything I have to find and remove the "hesitations," which is amazing since I invented the people, the town, the conflicts, etc, in the first place!! You'd think I'd feel like the ultimate authority on this one...
I'm not a big apologizer (neither was my mother), and I know a number of men who've said it's nice to be around a woman who wasn't constantly saying she was sorry for things she had nothing to do with!
I'm too apologetic, though I've gotten better with it. I know it's because I try to avoid what seems to me to be unnecessary conflict. I've always been a peace-maker of sorts. And I also hate when people are mad at me. I'm only 21, so I suppose it will take a while for me to come to terms with the fact that in life, sometimes people just won't like you, and that I shouldn't apologize for it. It's just too bad though. I wish people would get along.
Also.. though this is off-topic (but kind of relates to what I was saying, I suppose), it makes my blood boil when I see people being totally rude on feministing. Or anywhere on the internet for that matter. I feel like it's much easier for people to be rude on the internet because of the anonymity. I know I should just ignore/accept it, but I can't stand rudeness and meanness, both in real life and on the internet.