So. I've just had yet another retarded altercation with my mom. And now that I've had some time to cool down, I think I can write this post with considerably fewer four-letter words thrown about. So what was the altercation about? Feminism, of course! Because nothing says "get out your shotgun" like feminism.
I guess I should explain. I come from a traditional Albanian family. Well, my mom's side at least. My dad's side is secular Bosnian. But my beef is with the mams.
So we had one of my mom's parties last night, where she invites a plethora of her unenlightened, Koran-thumping-village people-relatives over for dinner. This of course means my mom has to spend the rest of the night being really tense and snappy with me while she tries to play Perfect Hostess as if her reputation in all of Albania hinges on her performance.
So of course, I watch as the men lounge around, doing most of the talking, taking up most of the space, while the women hurry about as usual preparing dinner and mostly in a very stressed-out fashion. As for me, freedom-loving-pro-gay-rights-anarchist-feminist that I am, I stand around awkwardly, not wanting to partake in the medieval ceremony of it all but very well aware that that is exactly what these 15+ people are expecting me to do.
I've been in this situation countless times before, and this is always the thought pattern: "Should I sit with them or go to my room? If I go to my room, they're all gonna judge me and say I'm a silly American bad girl that doesn't know how to honor our customs. If I stay, it'll be considered equally rude because I am only 20 and they are all adults and if I sit there with them it will be considered a breaching of custom as well. Do I help mom cook? Man she looks mad at me...why is she mad at me? Man FUCK this I don't even wanna be here! I don't have to play along with this medieval bullshit, etc. etc." Needless to say I usually end up feeling completely overwhelmed and angry and having somebody ask me what's wrong. But anyway, I helped my mom out with what I could, the night passed, and I eventually excused myself and went out.
So this morning, my mom and I are having breakfast and talking about some people we know. I tell her about this new Albanian girl I met who I think is really cool. My mom eventually talks about how she thinks "something isn't right" about that girl, and that "many of our people say" that she isn't very "smart". So I ask, "what do you mean by 'smart'? Like not intelligent"? She says, "No, I mean she does stupid things and embarrasses her family." Translation: "She's a slut-whore and embarasses her family!!!" So I'm already annoyed because I know this girl and I like her very much and don't think anything badly of her. Then, my mom starts in on a lady that came over last night; she starts talking about how something is "not right" with her either. Me, very annoyed but being ever so curious and knowing I will regret it, ask why. She tells me about how the woman always used to have these fits where she would spit at and hit her husband. She would stay in the house and never go out, and she wouldn't do anything in the house all day for her husband or children. My mom went on to say how everyone thinks she is "mentally ill".
Me being the conscious feminist I am and recognizing depression when I see it, my blood began to boil. 'Hmm', I wondered, 'could she be throwing fits because she's depressed and in a stifling mysognynistic situation where she has no control over her life? Could she possibly hate her husband for controlling her? Hmm..." This isn't the first time my mom brought up a story like this. A month ago it was a mom who committed suicide, leaving three sons and a husband behind. Another was a woman who got married and was so depressed she was having hallucinations and was bed-ridden. Another, a teenager, got pregnant and ran off with the father.
So forgive me for noticing a pattern, mom!
So I paused, and kept telling myself over and over, "just don't say anything, just don't say anything, you can't win with her, you can't make her understand..." But the more I sat there, the angrier I got. And then I said it. I dropped the F-bomb.
"...Well...Thank god for feminism."
Silence.
And then:
"What does that have to do with anything? How can you think feminism has anything to do with this situation?... What's wrong with you?"
I didn't really say anything. We let it alone for a while. Then half an hour later, she comes to me, and she's like, "Alma, sometimes you worry me." Immediately I'm very irritated. "Worry you about WHAT," I snap at her.
We go on arguing for a while about the "innappropriateness" of my comment.
Mom: "Everything you say is just so ridiculous. Every sentence you say, you just prove to me what a deeply, deeply frustrated little girl you are." And then: "It's embarassing. You're embarassing yourself. Do you talk to your therapist about this?"
"Yes, and this is exactly why I don't talk about it with YOU. And thank god I have people I CAN talk about it with because if I didn't I would go crazy."
*sardonic* "Well I'm glad you have those people. All over the internet. I'm glad you have people who will agree with you."
"This isn't the first time you told me a story like that. Every month it's another woman...maybe she was throwing fits at her husband because she hated him!"
"Her husband was a good man!" (in my culture, going to work and paying the bills automatically ordains a man with said title). "He suffered because of her! There are sick and horrible women too you know!"
etc etc.
I wanted to type this out because feministing is one of the few places where I don't have to feel totally alienated. Thank you all for listening to me, and please, if you have any kind words or shared experiences, I would love to hear them. This is always a very painful thing for me and any support or sense of connectedness would do me good. I want to hear about your 'evil family' stories! *hugs*
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It's rough to have a culture clash in the family. While I agree with you that feminism is a godsend, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss a someone's hitting or spitting on their spouse as a sign of depression. It very well could be, but it's also domestic violence, and we as feminists need to remember that there is no excuse for it, regardless of the gender of the perpetrator. Even if you have depression, adults are ultimately responsible for their own actions.
yeah, you're right...I think the only reason I reacted that way was because I'd heard these types of stories from my mom quite a few times. I think if it was an isolated incident I would've just construed the woman as being abusive.
anyway, thanks for takin the time to reply.
Side Note: Can we please not use "retarded" as a put-down? It's really ableist an inappropriate.
wow, that really is a side note.
sure, i won't use it. didn't mean any harm by it though.
That must be unfortunate to live with a family that doesn't have the same feminist values as you.
I'm sorry you have to deal with that. It's extremely frustrating.
You know, I feel quite sorry for your mother.
Being the educator in your family must suck, but I don't think you feel ANY compassion for your mother and I think you should. Getting pissed off with people and continously trying to pick fights with them is probably not that helpful. Maybe focusing on shared experiences or even starting from a non defensive place in explaining how (for example) that woman could be depressed might let your mom hear you. Your mother has probably faced quite a lot of oppression in her life and instead of acting like she's stupid, you could tap into those experiences as a vivid illustration of why feminism is needed. But in a respectful, non accusatory way.
My actual family is not that traditional but my extended family is ethnic/religious and whenever the family meets there is quite a lot of intra family stuff anyway. Since in that context I represent my parents, I try to act with compassion and a lot of tact, and do bite my tongue a lot. Something I wouldn't do if they were friends for example. For my family, acting as 'perfect hostess' on these occasions is culturally important and to dismiss that as almost silly, rather than acknowledging its importance and trying to challenge it is pretty futile.
Sometimes the mode in which we express something can create an unfavourable response. For example, since answering back rudely to an older person is considered really rude in my culture, it doesn't matter what I am saying, I have to be polite. Getting annoyed and sassing my uncle over some feminist issue only makes my parents look bad.
I'm not trying to criticize you and I suspect you are quite young and in a stage of cultural rebellion against your whole family and that's fine. But the whole 'you're backwards and ethnic and I'm an enlightened feminist' rant is never gonna come across well to the people you are criticizing. The word 'medieval' was a red flag to me. What is medieval about patriarchy? It's pretty dominant and powerful right now in all the 'enlightened' cultures too. Yes, you might be able to make a case that 'albania' is worse than America but don't drink the kool aid.
Let me tell you a story. I'm African and studied African politics. When the British were colonizing some parts of West Africa (avec missionaries), they couldn't believe all the 'savage' practices. Like FGM. Terrible, right. So all the missionaries went in and stopped FGM. Great - +1 for feminism. Good old enlightened Western Britain. But, wait a minute, by overriding local democratic institutions and making cultural change by force, they also destroyed many almost invisible (democratic) cultural accountability mechanisms. The ways in which the communities stopped excesses of power were broken because the British bestowed (pretty arbitratily) absolute power themselves. So what actually happened? Rape and abuse of women went up massively and now went pretty much unpunished. So did corruption, murder and many abuses of power. Hooray for feminism...?
My point is that superficial cultural denigration is hardly helpful to the people within those cultures and is not going to advance and strengthen feminism there either. All that pseudo racist clash of cultures stuff is not feminist either. You may think your Albanian family are 'backwards' and 'stupid' but I bet if you tried to understand, you would find amazing subtlties there AND a better way to connect these experiences to your mother.
Please think - what were your parents experiences when they first came to this country? Can you think of reasons why they might cling to those experiences/traditions? Is there a way to communicate feminist beliefs in a way which chimes with rather than seems to jarr with their experiences? I may be wrong but you also seem to be blaming your mother/women entirely for this. Why not your father or the men? That is feminism at it's worst. Judging and blaming other women for refusing to live up to our so called standards is exactly the way to alienate people. Do you live a 100% feminist life every day? I bet, even knowing what you do, you still collude with patriarchy many times, probably a day. That's not a criticism, it's just a reminder that we all have ways to go.
And your mother's responses to you are probably infused with fears about the loss of her culture and anxiety about your relationship and your (faily evident) lack of respect for her. She wants her daughter to share in her culture as well. She wants to understand you. Why not reach out with some humility instead of snapping? My parents are pretty traditional in lots of way still. But when I heard some of the things they had gone through in their generation discrimination, poverty), I had a hell of a lot of respect for them even if I didn't always agree with their belief system. If you can't even do that, for the people who loved and raised you, you honestly sound like a bit of a spoilt brat.
Sorry this is long and I apologize if this is rude but something about this really jarred with me.
By the way,
Everything you've mentioned - perfect hostess syndrome, oppressive family, slut shaming, ignoring depression/blaming the victim, generational conflict etc can and does happen in 'American culture' too.
Even by implicitly saying that feminism is 'American' and being backwards is 'Albanian', you are saying to your mother that she needs to shed her own culture and you yours. Can you see how that might be incredibly threatening to her?
I hope you don't believe it. I truly hope you don't believe that all over the world there's aren't empowered and intelligent women redefining and developing a global feminism which informs us all and is because, not despite, their own heritage. I really hope you don't believe that no women outside of 'America' have any agency. I really hope you don't believe that women from these nations are just passive victims who bring terrible stories of abuse to western feminists who 'explain the truth' to them. I hope you don't honestly believe that the exchange of ideas, beliefs and ideology is completely one sided and static.
Cos if you do, that is really sad. Feminism is so much more than a small minded cultural superiority complex that doesn't pass the neo colonialism sniff test. It really is.
Hi Pololly,
Thank you for your response. I don't really know what to say except that I feel really humbled. I see now that creating this me vs. them mentality is definitely not helping. In fact it never did, but I clung to it anyway.
I love my mother very much, and she did have it hard, really hard, when she was younger. I suppose you're right, I don't have much respect...and I'm not sure why. I think from a very young age, I always felt very threatened by my family and our culture. I was always a really sensitive child and the incentive was always to be quiet and "good", and I think over the years I've developed a lot of resentment toward my upbringing. I think I just developed this me vs. them mentality as a way of coping.
I have to find another way to communicate these ideas without threatening or disrespecting my mother's integrity. I've had it much easier than her and I seem to always forget that.
Honestly I felt very ashamed after our argument. And after posting my blog. But I guess it's good I did because your perspective helped me to realize many things.
Thank you.
Best,
Alma
I can empathize with your situation, as I also come from a non-mainstream Muslim background. My mother constantly blames women for all the problems that any couple might experience without knowing the full story. Plus, she blames anything she doesn't like about me on "feminism."
I think that respect grows over time when it comes to these kinds of mother-daughter clashes. Just don't stop asserting yourself (although hopefully more politely) and change will come, however slow.
Wow Alma,
I completely understand, believe me! Firstly I have to say that your response is so gracious and lovely. You absolutely should NOT feel ashamed. This is what discussion is all about. It's so hard to admit someone else may be right about something, especially on the internet - believe me, I had to hear this myself a while ago.
My extended family - good god. It's so hard when we're close to people. It can really grind you down and frustrate you. I hear that 100%. This is why this post was so important. You need to have this outlet to just let off steam so that you don't have to snap their heads off!
As a minority/2nd generation feminist in any culture, it can be so hard. On one hand you don't want to dismiss or excuse poor attitudes and behavior, on the other when does it begin to trade in unthinking stereotype? My extended family is sooo Christian in a slightly crazy ethnic way. I honestly used to despise them but I can see now that a lot of people arrive in a country with no status at all. They are often at the bottom rung and can be racially targeted. Maybe they were doctors or teachers in their native country and now they are cleaners. They want that community, that status and you bet your arse it comes from church/family or whatever used to give them that respect back home. So I try to address it from an angle which doesn't make people feel like I'm trying to take the one thing they have left away from them. Even my parents who are educated and have a lot really had to deal with things which would have been deeply traumatic when I think about it. So slaughtering their sacred cows should be done respectfully. With my parents I try to do it in a way that is about *us* not about grand cultural pronouncements.
I'm honestly not judging you cos the line for me shifts on when I speak up and when I don't, and I've had my times of real frustration with it. I also recognize that as I negotiate my own ethnic identity, I sometimes am really working my own issues out 'against' my family. That's ok too.
"I truly hope you don't believe that all over the world there's aren't empowered and intelligent women redefining and developing a global feminism which informs us all and is because, not despite, their own heritage. I really hope you don't believe that no women outside of 'America' have any agency. I really hope you don't believe that women from these nations are just passive victims who bring terrible stories of abuse to western feminists who 'explain the truth' to them. I hope you don't honestly believe that the exchange of ideas, beliefs and ideology is completely one sided and static."
Erm, mothers like hers (I have one) don't acknowledge those things. They're stuck in an immigrant subcultural complex (read a basic sociology textbook) which idealizes a static and unrealistic vision of the "home country." For people with "traditional" values, idealization includes elimination of any meddlesome and troublesome feminists from the mental landscape. My mother doesn't "believe" that feminists can exist "back home." We shouldn't be ignoring women like the poster's and my mother by touting counter-examples, we should be acknowledging just how many women like them are anti-feminists so that we can more realistically suggest solutions for real problems. Appealing to feminist ideals will not work with those types. I am fully aware that there are feminists in developing nations (a relative of mine in Pakistan, of all places, is one) but the sad fact is that most women there have internalized their own oppression enough to actively perpetuate it upon their own children.
Dear Heina,
I don't want to alarm you but most women 'here' in 'enlightened countries' have internalized their own oppression and perpetuate it on their own children as well. Thanks for your advice but I've actually read a basic sociology book before. Maybe further reading on your part would illuminate the point for you.
If not, here is some clarification.
1. Of course many immigrants idealize 'back home'. I actually pointed out that there may be many reasons for this, some of which are just not to annoy you. Let's see, when my mother was at college, no public transport would ever stop for her. Only when other white people were around would they stop. General troubles =/= personally targeted and for many immigrants they are, or at least feel, personally targeted.
These cultural myths have value and so we need to be aware of that when we attempt to shatter them. This is not something that just 'backwards' immigrants think either. Social mobility is lower in America than in most European countries but *no one* 'here' will believe you. Why? to piss me off? No, because the myth of 'meritocracy' is too valuable and too fundamental to people to be easily shaken.
I never said don't shatter them, I said do it with understanding.
2. This is not an immigrant thing. It's not even a non-Western thing. Patriarchy is not an invention of those savage brown people. That's why words like 'medieval' 'village people' 'Koran bashing' are not helpful. There are many many feminist organizations, movements and innovations which have grown out of other cultures you know. Not just the odd one person. I find it really sad that you say Pakistan 'of all places'. There are plenty of feminists in Pakistan, Sudan, Nigeria, everywhere working really hard for change. And there are women who negotiate the multiple oppressions that they have, maybe not to your liking ok, but your language strips them of agency and infantilizes them.
You won't get through to people so long as your words are dripping with contempt. I'm sorry that you obviously feel hostility towards your mother but to paint such a wide brush across continents, it seems is pretty lame.
This seems a little like a double standard, considering all the outrage and vehemence expressed every time mainstream American culture is involved. You know: "you're entitled to your outrage", "you deserve to be angry", "don't back down because people try to make you ashamed" etc etc.
Now, obviously, all the people saying these things aren't you, and I don't mean to accuse you personally of hypocrisy. But I do think it's a problem that the community hasn't gotten behind Alma here, when it goes without saying that they would if Alma was a WASP.
Alma, if you change the way you relate to your mother, hopefully you'll end up getting through to her about your opinions, and form a better relationship with her while you're doing it. But I don't think you should forget that YOU'RE in the right, and that however reasonable it is for your mother to think as she does, what she believes is still repressive and patriarchal, and it is not your responsibility to tone your beliefs down in order to meet her halfway.
Cheers, Mem
Hi Mem,
Yeah, that's the crux of the issue for me. Because for example, while what pololly said in her previous posts definitely rang true for me and made me realize many things, there is also the sense that I still know I'm, at a fundamental level, right about how I feel. As much as I should truly respect my mother and her beliefs and customs, I still highly value my own and am not willing to sacrifice them in order to ameliorate my family. That's why I always feel so confused after these sort of altercations with her. There's this very conflicted sense of wanting to demonstrate my respect to her and make a gesture of goodwill, but an equally strong need to distance myself from her beliefs and hold onto dear life for my own. This is why I feel so sad sometimes after these fights. It seems I get stuck between a rock and a hard place, where with either path I choose, I have to sacrifice something. In this case, either my beliefs or her acceptance.
Now that I have the opportunity for the first time to discuss this on feministing with other feminists, I feel like this is a really crucial issue to address; these conflicted relationships between mothers and daughters, and not only that, but feminist girls and women and their anti-feminist families.
I agree. It's pretty complicated, especially when dealing with family.
I think that why you might treat 'mainstream American culture' differently from 'other cultures' is that people can be both oppressed AND privileged. A male immigrant for example. Recognizing both is key to connecting with people. Calling other cultures 'backwards', stupid and medieval etc has been used as justification for all sorts of unethical behavior and as a dehumanizing tactic also. It is not that we cannot criticise these cultures. It's just that for hundreds of years, many many countries have been made much worse by shameless cultural desecration which resulted from intervention from more 'enlightened countries' and many atrocities were justified on those grounds.
And since many people from those cultures have already heard those insults before - we may be closing off many possible advocates by aligning ourselves with the Rush Lumbaugh/Sam Huntingdon/ Fox News type stuff type analysis rather than with a more intersectional, inclusive feminism.
Anyway, I just think that we need to be careful open our eyes to all oppressions, not just those based on gender. But that doesn't mean that we're not right in our beliefs.
But it's "her" culture as well; one that she knows intimately from the inside. If a young Albanian-American woman is not in a position to say "you know, this shit is really fucked up" without having to qualify herself, then who is?
I also find it more respectful to be upfront with "ethnic" people about things that you disagree on than to second-guess yourself by comparing oppressions. More respectful to anyone to be honest and unashamed about yourself.
I'm glad I made sense :)
I think you should just try and be as honest as you can; it's bullshit to say "I respect your beliefs and customs" when, self-evidently, you *don't* respect them, and think they're a crock. But you DO respect your mother, because she is a strong, wise and resourceful woman.
...[sorry for putting words in your mouth, but this is how it seems you think]...
So tell her that. But make it clear that you still think Albanian culture is repressive, misogynistic etc etc. Your mother will still be disappointed and hurt that you don't value what she values, but it won't be a fight between the two of you anymore: she won't feel like your relationship is on the line each time it comes up. And eventually she might start to respect and understand that you feel differently from her.
I hope this helps. Mem
Why are you polarizing the debate? I didn't say that I hate or have contempt or treat my mother as an infant -- you don't know me and you don't know our relationship. I just said that she truly believes in her own oppression; if I started quoting her, I am sure you would be appalled. I said nothing about other feminists' works not being to my liking. Also, I didn't say that patriarchy is the invention of non-whites, and I didn't say that white women don't engage in perpetuating patriarchy. That is a valid point of which I am fully aware.
Why must I point out the patriarchy and misogyny in America whilst pointing out the same in other countries in order to "prove" I'm not some evil imperialist? The opposite standard seems to not apply.
I do, however, feel that coming from a factual standpoint, women in the US have it a lot better than women in a lot of countries. It's blind and ignorant to pretend that women in other countries are not only subjected to more, but they perpetuate that on others. I said "Pakistan of all places" because the Quran does contain some pretty sexist things and Pakistan is a pretty hostile place for women. Before you say it: I know the Bible does, too (that's why I'm an agnostic when it comes to supernatural belief systems based on antiquated texts), and that bad things happen to women in America too.
I echo another poster's sentiment: if Alma were white, all of us would be chanting "you go girl!" Somehow, we're supposed to be more "understanding" of non-white patriarchy, while I subscribe to the radical notion of universal human rights, which means that I call it where I see it without resorting to cultural sensitivity as some kind of excuse for horrific behavior.
Heina
Here's an idea - why don't you address people in the tone in which you'd like to be addressed? I'm hardly being the 'offensive and polzarizing' one when you told me to go and read a basic sociology book. You mentioned your mother as an appeal to experience. I pointed out that a basic sociology book might call that an anecdote. If you want a discussion to be snarky, let's be so. But please at least be consistent.
As to your point:
"Why must I point out the patriarchy and misogyny in America whilst pointing out the same in other countries in order to "prove" I'm not some evil imperialist? The opposite standard seems to not apply.
I echo another poster's sentiment: if Alma were white, all of us would be chanting "you go girl!" Somehow, we're supposed to be more "understanding" of non-white patriarchy, while I subscribe to the radical notion of universal human rights, which means that I call it where I see it without resorting to cultural sensitivity as some kind of excuse for horrific behavior."
If you really don't see why, then there's not much I can say to you. If being equal means being treated exactly the same to you, then wny are you even on a site like feministing? 'Cultural sensitivity' 'double standards' - that's exactly what people's complaints about feminism are! Why can't women just get on with it, stop asking for special favours...
You dismiss similarly real oppressive constructs pretty quickly for others though. The answer is that it is helpful to be more understanding of other cultures and sensitive in the way you discuss and address them because a social and political history of offensive and oppressive language and behavior towards those groups has heightened sensitivity on both sides. That shouldn't be radical to an actual feminist (who presumably feels the same way about patriarchy), but I guess a one dimensional 'feminist' who wallows in all of the other privilege she has wouldn't get that.
No one says that it should be excused. But if your aim is to actually engage people from other cultures instead of turning them off, yeah it's good to try not to sound like you are just the latest in a long line of small minded interventionist xenophobes.
And by the way, 'political correctness' which is what you mentioned pretty much, just not by name, is such a poor argument that you should be embarassed. If people have no obligation to think carefully about characterizations of certain groups based on previous and current oppressions, then what exactly is wrong with calling someone a retard? I will call people retards and you can call Muslims culturally backwards koran bashing village people.
I am sure there are Albanian feminists. I don't know of any, personally, but there are feminists of all cultures, so it stands to reason that there must be Albanian feminists. Why don't you do a little research and see if you can find some feminist writings by Albanian women, whether they identify as feminists or not. That might carry some weight with your mother that American writings will not.
When you are done, come back and share what you found. I would love to read some Albanian feminism.
I found this with a quick google search
http://www.cddc.vt.edu/feminism/alb.html
Hi 123stop,
I'm so sorry you're going through a difficult situation. I'm glad you're able to discuss the issues on feministing, and I do hope it helps. However--and I mean this with no disrespect intended--please don't use the adjective "retarded" to describe the disagreement you had with your mom. It's highly offensive. I know you wrote all of this with a lot of other things on your mind, and that you didn't mean any harm by using the term, but I just thought I'd make the request that in the future, you use another word. Things never change if people don't speak out about them, right? Again, I'm sorry you're having a difficult time, and I hope things get better for you!
Hi Naomi,
thank you for your good wishes.
I'm sorry to have caused any offense with the term, I was a bit heated up at the time and I think that's the only reason I used it. I'll try and be more aware in the future.
Best,
Alma
I assumed that must've been the reason :-) I'm glad you're not insulted. Have a good night!
you too! =)
I can definitely sympathize. I don't have feminist clash in my family but I've had some religion clash, and I'm sure its pretty similar. Also though, I noticed that you don't have much respect for your mother's lifestyle (sorry if this has been mentioned before, I didn't read the other posts) I feel like part of feminism is accepting all people's lifestyles, and if this is the life your mother feels most comfortable with then I don't see anything wrong with that. On the other hand, I certainly do not condone her gossiping and disrespect of you and the othe people in your culture who do not follow your cultural norms.