This is a post I've been thinking about writing for the longest time, but was always held back by anxieties in regards to openly discussing my disability. Reading Renee's wonderful post on disability at Womanist Musings inspired me to take a stab at this particular part of my life and how it's shaped my feminist views.
I'll start off with this simple fact: I have Asperger Syndrome, a mild form of autism, which usually manifests itself into a narrow range of interests, limited social abilities, and, most relevant to this post, difficulty expressing emotions, for me, empathy and sympathy are exteremely difficult to articulate. Asperger Syndrome/autism is typically more common among males than females, though some believe this may be due more to misdiagnosis and ignorance on female behavior than anything.
With that preamble over with, I must admit that females on the Austistic spectrum face unique challenges that our male counterparts do not deal with, owing to society's expectations of women. Many times, I have been accused of being "insensitive" "rude" "cold" "heartless" "bitchy" and other unsavory adjectives, because I have difficulty displaying empathy, I dislike being hugged, and I am far from the "nurturing" type. I thought it was simply a part of the emotional baggage of having Asperger Syndrome, but upon questioning my male peers with Asperger Syndrome, I discovered this treatment was unique to me. Men with Asperger Syndrome told me that their behavior, while standoffish and socially awkward, was regarded as the norm for men when dealing with a difficult situation. But I, as a woman, was expected to emotionally plunge myself in with the people who were experiencing the situation, and offer myself as a beacon of comfort and sympathy.
My reaction to this is to want to bang my head against the desk and scream. My vagina does not mean that I am your soft pillow to cry against during your moments of anguish! This is probably applicable to neurotypical women as well, I'm sure many of you have felt this desire to tell someone the same. It appears that women have been handed the unfair expectation to be people's shoulder to cry on. For me, this is simply unrealistic, I cannot properly read body language, facial expressions, or tell when people's tone of voice is meant to reflect anger, sadness, or happiness. For me to be someone's "rock" is to expect too much out of me, or any woman, either with or without an Autistic Spectrum Disorder.
Realizing how different I was being treated based on being female was the reason I began calling myself a feminist. People on the autistic spectrum often have to fight tooth-and-nail to be treated as respectable adults, and for the rare handful of us who are females with Asperger Syndrome or Autism, we have to work twice as hard to prove we are capable, grown people who can make our own decisions about our lives. There are many issues besides the sympathetic/comforting mother hen expectation which I would like to address some day, but for now, I hope that my post helps people realize that these unfair expectations women are supposed to shoulder are wrong on many levels, and should be reconsidered for the better of both women on the autistic spectrum and neurotypical women.
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Check out the WrongPlanet forums. They have a section on there for Aspie women.
I happen to think that a lot of Aspie traits are really good ones for women. i.e. intense focus, de-emphasis on nurturing, self-concern, interest in topics.
A bit of a caveat, though - a lot of the posters there have absolutely maddening MRA-type attitudes when it comes to feminism. It's what convinced me not to sign up.
I've noticed that too, upon entering the site and signing up. I wasn't surprised though, many males with Aspergers that I've met have an extremely hostile attitude towards women, neurotypical or aspie, because of their failures in dating or their misconception that women like to be "mysterious", which is maddening for any aspie. But I think it's worth it to brave the MRA attitudes for the sake of discussing issues related to disability and women's rights.
thanks for sharing! your thoughts were very well articulated, and i've just learned something new today.
Thank you for saying this. I think it's important that the voices of autism-spectrum women are heard because our society has such a messed-up idea about it. I think the way you've been treated sucks and I hope it changes.
Thanks for posting this. I too, have Asperger's and I'm currently considering doing a vlog telling my story about it as April is Autism Awareness Month. I haven't been around many other people with Asperger's so I haven't noticed much of a difference of how people with it are treated with regards to sex.
Thank you so much for talking about your experiences! Please keep it up!
I think that it is crucial for not just women, but human beings who have ASD, to speak out as much as they can, and thwart all attempts by other people to enforce their own ideas, perceptions, expectations and stereotypes onto those with ASD.
Eh, that was meant to say, "not just women, but *all* human beings..."; human beings defined to include women, of course, lol.
good point. I can somewhat understand your situation because I am Deaf. Here for us Deaf people, it is different. Many Deaf males feel frustrated with their own masculinity when they feel like they can't find a good job and it makes them feel ashamed and inferior.
for Deaf females, lots of people think that we are shy, timid, dumb, naive, and that we need a strong, hearing boyfriend to "save" us. So fucking annoying. This happened when I dated hearing guys who were concerned that I wouldn't be able to order for myself in a restaurant or talk to strangers.
Thanks for posting this! I know a tiny bit about Asperger's because my cousin's 9-year-old son has it, but I've seen precious little about adults with AS, and absolutely nothing like a feminist take on it.
Like the other commenters, I've definitely learned something new today because of your post :)
This reminds me of a comment a friend once jokingly made: "Men don't have Asperger's, they just act like men." In other words, men have leeway to be socially awkward than women do. I'm not on the Autism spectrum, but before I got on anti-depressants, my depression often made social interaction difficult for me. I haven't compared notes with any men, but I doubt they would have been considered as "weird" as I was.
This is a really interesting topic, often little-explored. Autism does often seem to be identified with boys, and is sometimes seen as 'extreme maleness'. I'm not autistic but I'm definitely a woman who resents the assumption that I will automatically be kind, friendly and nurturing. On the several occasions I've been stuck next to some oblivious chattering man on a plane who wouldn't stop talking at me, I've wondered - would a man put up with this? Would the talker even start if a man was next to them? Is it assumed that I'll listen and smile to someone's jabbering, just because I'm a girl?
I'm also quite solitary and would often rather read a book than chatter with someone for no reason, but this 'pragmatism' often makes me feel like I'm being deliberately unfriendly. In reality, I love to talk when I'm with the right people, but I'm just discerning about how I use my time. I'm aware that this is a 'non-female' trait and I resent that I even have to be aware of it. I just don't see men having so much demanded of them socially. So thanks for reminding me that it's not me who's unreasonable - it's these unfair asymmetric expectations that place all the pressure on women to be socially accommodating, whilst men are left to behave as they place.
I hate hate HATE that "extreme maleness" trope. I haven't been diagnosed with Aspergers yet, though I probably could get so if I felt comfortable talking with a doctor about what I think in most social situations. I do share a lot of the "typical traits." and I am not male. I am interested in topics, in patterns and in data, not nurturing. I need social subtexts explained outright, generally. I am bad at reading subtle reactions enough to "draw people out" Why do these have to be male traits? Heck, why do they have to be a disorder, while we're at it?
I hate hate HATE that "extreme maleness" trope. I haven't been diagnosed with Aspergers, though I probably could get so if I felt comfortable talking with a doctor about what I think in most social situations. I do share a lot of the "typical traits." and I am not male. I am interested in topics, in patterns and in data, not nurturing. I need social subtexts explained outright, generally. I am bad at reading subtle reactions enough to "draw people out" Why do these have to be male traits? Heck, why do they have to be a disorder, while we're at it?
okay, can an editor please remove the first one? I thought I had stopped it in time to edit, but apparently not. and removing the yet is really important to me.
I'm similar. I don't like people crying around me, even if they're people I love. I don't know what to do. You're apparently supposed to hug them or something, make them feel secure?
When I cry, I like to be alone and hug a pillow to my face. Since that's my experience, when someone comes to me crying like I'm supposed to hug them and smooth back their hair and say, "Shhhh..." or wahtever, I'm like, 'Go cry it off someone else and come back to me so we can talk about it.' I don't do that because when someone comes to me, I know they need me, but can I at least feel awkward about having to hold someone without feeling guilty too?
I usually feel awkward about that too, and I'm usually very good at emotional things. I am good at emotions, but I get really worried about violating people's physical space. In movies, whenever somebody is crying, their friend will hug them or touch their shoulder, stroke their hair, or hold their hand. I'm not sure that works so well in real life. Whenever I cry in front of somebody, they usually hand me a tissue and give me some space, and I'm prone to doing the same thing.
At most, I will pat them gently on the back and see how they respond to that. Maybe then I will brush hair out of their face or give a hug or something, but generally it stops there.
Here's a tissue, *pat pat pat*
Awkward. It's not unusual for that situation to be awkward.
"I'm also quite solitary and would often rather read a book than chatter with someone for no reason, but this 'pragmatism' often makes me feel like I'm being deliberately unfriendly."
Omg YES. I feel this way all the time. I used to suffer from extreme depression in high school, and the reactions I got were so condemning sometimes.
Nowadays, I'm still a pretty solitary person; I'm friendly and talkative, even nurturing, when I want to be, but that doesn't mean I'll talk with just anybody. I work in a library (on the children's floor no less) and sometimes, when I'm in a bad mood or even when I just feel like being alone, I feel horribly guilty to be that way at work. As if being female, and surrounded by children, and having a vagina, I thus must be pleasing to everybody and smile for everybody else.
But then I remember I'm a feminist and there's a reason I feel that way, and that makes it better.
I have depression and anxiety, and it's been interesting for me to see how people react to those two illnesses in me in different ways. My anxiety is "cute" and endearing. I just need my big strong boyfriend to do a better job of protecting me. When my depression is bad enough that I can't pretend to be happy (doesn't happen much now that I'm on meds), something is seriously wrong. I'm selfish, unfeminine and need to smile more. I'm being hysterical and need to just get over it. If it weren't something I have to live with it would be a really fun sociological study.
Hooray for this post! I went to college with a girl who had Asperger's. She was awesome; it's great to see someone looking at the problems of this illness from a feminist perspective.
Thanks for sharing, Lydia. I can understand this as a woman with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. I often find that people (and men in particular) downplay my OCD symptoms as just being 'neurotic' or 'picky' about the way I like things. Yes, I like things clean, but I feel like social expectations of women as controlling the domestic domain often lead my behavior to be dismissed as 'nagging' when it is actually a symptom of a mental illness. No matter how many times I explain that I find certain things upsetting (like changes in my surroundings), I feel like my frustration is put in the same category as someone wishing her partner would put the toilet seat down. (Which is annoying, yes, but nothing to get medicated over...) It's nice to see sexism's relationship with mental illness being discussed here.
smerdmann -
I have OCD as well, and it can get annoying. A lot of my compulsions don't have to do with domestic types of things, though, and people usually get that it's a disorder when they see me navigate one of the many annoying striped crosswalks on campus (grrr!). In general, though, I can't stand it when people find out I have OCD and immediately respond with, "I think I do, too! I'm really picky about certain things." Hello, people, there is a difference between normal quirks and having to wash your hands until they're chapped and bleeding or having to alternate which foot steps on a new surface first so your body doesn't feel uneven. Sorry, I know it's not really a feminist problem, and I'm kind of hijacking the comments thread, but damn, it can be so ridiculously annoying sometimes.
Exactly! I think it's natural for people to want to relate on some level, but that is universally the response I get from telling someone I have OCD. "Oh really? I think I do too. Sometimes I have to run back inside to make sure I shut off the stove." I try to avoid competing by offering some of the things I do as a result of my OCD (behaviors that are incapacitating, not just inconvenient), but it's hard to have your disorder so often brushed off as "Aren't we all like that sometimes?!" I wonder if people react that way to other mental illnesses as well...
I'm not sure about other mental illnesses, but I have Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, and whenever I have to wear a brace or sling, one of my professors will comment about how some joint of his is hurting.
I have bipolar disorder, and I've had a few people say shit like, "We all have mood swings, you should see me when I have to pay bills, I get so angry and unhappy!"
That's when they minimize it.
When they maximize it, they say shit like, "I'd NEVER date someone bipolar, s/he'd throw plates at me every time we argued and they might get a gun and shoot up the school/office/house."
Both kinds of shit are based in ignorance and fear.
I, too, was diagnosed bipolar and I often get the same reactions.
As for the original entry - thank you so much for posting this! My brother is high functioning autistic and it is fairly difficult for him so I can only imagine what it would be like for a woman. Especially since, as you said, Autism is primarily diagnosed as a "male" disease.
Sometimes I think people are trying to create a connection by showing that they can identify in some way with a perceived weakness/sickness/mental illness/etc. Perhaps sometimes they are merely trying to minimize your pain, but oftentimes they're just trying to be more open & demonstrate understanding.
i have people talk about someone being upset and they describe it as "oh my god, he had this total seizure about it!"
as an epileptic, that makes me feel *really* good.
yeah, i'm epileptic too...i hate seizure jokes....
This happens with other things, too! I stutter, and somehow every time I tell someone this online, they go "oh, I know what that's like, I stumble over words sometimes!" Uh, no, no, you really don't. There is a reason I have a diagnosable speech disorder and you don't.
I've even started getting this offline after doing a speech therapy last summer which has massively improved my symptoms. I keep meaning to make an mp3 file from some of the recordings of me earlier on just so I can show people what I actually sounded like before it the next time I get one of those comments. I mean, I understand that people want to be empathetic, but really, there is a point where that becomes insulting.
Congratulations on finding something that helped! :)
I have ADHD, and I also have a vagina, so alot of people don't really know how to react when they hear about my disorder. Women with ADD/ADHD are pretty much unheard of, at least in the mainstream media. I usually am greeted with statements like, "But you seem so normal!" or, "Yeah, sometimes I just feel so antsy, I know what you mean!" or my absolute favourite, "What are your meds like? Over-prescription is such a problem these days, dontcha think?"
Before I was treated, I was failing out of college, because I would frequently spend days wandering around my city, completely distracted from my work and totally forgetful of all responsibilities I had. ADHD isn't just a tendency to procrastinate. It's a total disruption. I just wish people would see that.
I have ADD not ADHD and a lot of people are not aware of the difference. I went undiagnosed through elementary and secondary school and my parents had a pretty good theory as to why. Had I been diagnosed, the school would have had to accommodate me. I lost focus on my work, I daydreamed, and I rarely remembered to complete homework. But, I wasn't bothering anyone, I wasn't jumping out of my seat so my behavior was brushed off.
When I was finally diagnosed, everything changed. I realize the stigma of taking Ritalin but it has been very helpful to me. I do very well in college, it just takes a little bit longer to get my work done.
I have ADHD (inattentive type) as well, as I recently discovered. I'm also discovering just how hard it is to talk about or tell anyone about. I'm terrified of having to defend why or whether I have it. Most people, as you say, aren't even aware that there other types of ADHD or that girls get it. It's caused a lot of problems for me socially, since obviously it's hard to hold a conversation when you can't concentrate on what's being said, or process the information fast enough. I remember the day when my close friend told me everyone at college thought I was a snob; that was pretty crushing. I wonder if a guy would be seen as a "snob" or just perhaps as shy.
word. I have ADHD too (and dysgraphia and other LDs).
I can't stand it when people are like, "omg I must have ADD/ADHD too... I couldn't pay attention this one time..." or "well I don't really believe ADD/ADHD is real because everyone has trouble concentrating on stuff at times..." OMG WTF? I need my meds to function and my laptop (for my dysgraphia) to take notes that I can actually read later.
They definitely react that way to ADHD. I really can't stand it when people are all "Oh, I procrastinate all the time, too." Uh, no. Not like me.
thank you for a very thought-provoking post.
This is a very interesting post! I hadn't thought about the differences between the way men and women with a certain disorder are treated. Not only do women with ASD have to deal with normal woman stereotypes and ASD stereotypes, but they have to deal with the intersectionality, too.
I have a lot of symptoms associated with Aspergers though I've never been diagnosed with it. Difficulties with fine and gross motor skills and with directionality: check. Not catching subtle social nuance (or any social nuance): check. No capacity for empathy: check. Hyperlogical: check. Way overdeveloped logical, cognitive, verbal skills, zero nonverbal: check. My brother was autistic so there is a family tendency. And I feel exactly the same about how society expects us women to be "nurturing". I hate giving condolences because I find them extremely awkward and I *hate* when people randomly hug me.
I wish this blog talked more about intersections of disability and feminism, and other anti-oppression perspectives, tensions between equity seeking groups and disabled people, and the like.
Im in an MA in critical disability studies and today in class we heard from a guest speaker on racism and ableism. She told us stories of how her brother was put in 'care' facilities where his muslim faith and right to practice were constantly violated because of the whiteness of dominant 'accomodation' paradigms. So certain practices around eating, for example, or prayer practices were totally overlooked.
and others in class chimed in about their experiences in their churches, racialized communities, and the experience of disability in these places.
very interesting.
Thank you for posting this! As a therapeutic horseback riding instructor, I work with several people on the Autism Spectrum and who have other cognitive challenges. In all my interactions, though, I have never talked to anyone who communicated a feminist analysis like this. I tend to work mostly with individuals under 15 so I've never really thought how a milder form of Autism (i.e. a disorder that is hard to immediately detect) might affect the lives of many older teens and adults. The biggest problem I've seen among the young teens I've worked with is that many people treat them as asexual--like because of their disability, they can never be whole sexual beings or even a being with a sex. That's something that has always been troublesome for me, but I do think that it gets talked about more than issues like the one you've brought up here.
Therapeutic horseback riding instructor? That is awesome!
That's cool-- although some of us actually do identify as asexual (as our orientation). But that shouldn't be foisted on people any more than heterosexuality should. In a poll I saw of autistic women on Wrongplanet, a huge percentage of the women surveyed said they felt asexual either all or most of the time. So yeah, I don't want to desexualize autistic folks, but some of us really don't experience sexual attraction. (There are neurotypical asexual people too-- check out www.asexuality.org if you're interested.)
I do some work with my college's development office (aka "the people always calling you to ask for money"), and most of the women I work with in that role are elderly Southerners from an upper-income background. They're quadruple-socialized to be genteel and deferential, and so I've sort-of become socialized myself to deal with them with that expectation. Recently, I encountered a woman who fit the profile, but not the behaviorial mold, and I have to say I had no clue how to interact with her. She didn't seem to pick up on how her sometimes-pointed words were intimidating, even offending, those around her. Frankly, every conversation I have with her feels like walking through a minefield - her signals send the message that she's angry.
Having thought about this later, especially in light of your post, I realize that much of my (and the other staff's) discomfort around her has far more do to with our expectation of how a woman (particularly one in her 80s) "should" act than with anything she did or said. If she were a man, we almost certainly would've chalked it up to that. Thanks for making me think about this...
"men have leeway to be socially awkward than women do"
When I was in high school, just a few years ago, there were many awkward boys that were physically assaulted, and people just laughed at how 'pathetic' they were. I cant think of a single case where this had happened to an awkward girl.
Well, at my school the socially awkward girls generally got raped and labeled as sluts afterward. That's something that doesn't happen in public as often as just getting beaten up, and unless you're actually friends with those girls you'd probably never know what happened.
But thanks for playing Displaying Your Privilege 101.
Excellent post.
I've been diagnosed with Asperger's for years, but it plays out differently with me. I'm rather nurturing on the inside, I like being hugged, and I'd love nothing more than being a "rock" for someone.
But I can't. Asperger's has killed every part of me that would allow anyone else to give a damn about me. I have no friends and as a result am constantly depressed, which only alienates people further.
It's evolution telling me "Fuck you, we don't want you polluting our gene pool." (I'm also infertile, just in case the message wasn't clear enough.)
Also, a few concrete examples - there are SO many more:
- Networking. Think it's hard to get or keep a job in this economy? Try doing it when you have no idea how to get people to like you. I applied for over forty part time jobs last year. I only got two. Both fired me in less than a week for "not being social enough." And this is just part-time retail stuff. We won't even get into making contacts for something that can actually help me earn a living. Sure, there are anti-discrimination laws, but they accomplish absolutely nothing here because people can pin it on your personality.
- Safety. You know how street harassment is so much scarier when you're alone? I have to walk everywhere alone because I don't have any buddies for the buddy system or whatever they're pushing these days. This includes after dark.
Try the goth scene. At least in my area, we've got a young man with Asperger's who is nevertheless quite popular, even though he has a tough time in conversation. We tend to be more understanding of differences than Joe Average on the street.
I'll give you a hug...
*hug*
=)
I don't have Asperger's (I'm epileptic) but everything you described, I've felt at many points in my life. You're not alone.
Everyone, thank you for the overwhelmingly positive responses that this post received! Any anxiety I had about discussing this have melted away. :)
Joyfuldinosaur: I have registered at wrongplanet at your suggestion, already I find the community to be a positive way to interact with other female aspies. I appreciate the recommendation.
Toni: I was considering a blog/vlog as well. If you do start one, please let me know, I'm always interested in having female AS voices being given a platform.
Katemoore: I'm sorry to hear that life has been so difficult for you socially speaking and with other issues. I know many women with AS must feel the same and I appreciate a perspective on having AS different from my own. Though it won't compensate 100% for people in the community, I find internet friendships to be a helpful tool to people with Asperger Syndrome, as smilies are a lot easier to read than your average social mannerisms and facial expressions. It can be a great comfort having a community of friends online, such as feministing.
To the rest of you, especially women who are disabled who offered your stories, I'm very grateful for your responses, they led to much contemplation about disabilities and feminism in general. I think I shall write more later about the unique challenges faced by women on the spectrum, and I hope nobody else will be afraid to speak up about their experiences. We can only learn more by sharing after all. It's extremely rewarding to have such a vibrant community of feminists give me their compliments and suggestions.
Great post, thanks. I can imagine how frustrating it would be! I'm not in the autism spectrum but I do have depression and anxiety which leads me to be great with people in some circumstances and utterly incapable of being personable in others.
Hence, ending up having to leave a New Years party in tears because my partner's ex-flatmate had poisoned all their mutual friends against me (I was young and pretty, she was jealous and manipulative). It's hard to forgive my partner for holding my inability to make conversation (with people I'm comfortable with you can't shut me up!) against me. :(
I refuse to show weakness in front of anyone but my partner and I'm sure this works more against me because people expect women to react a certain way. I work at a vet clinic and it's SO hard to deal with people mourning for their animals because my natural instinct when that upset is to run away. I have a tendency to clasp one shoulder or just look really pained.
I never realised how bad I'd got with physical intimacy outside of my romantic relationship until my friend hugged me and said she loved me when she left the country and I was stiff as a board. I can tell her I love her on the internet!
Anyway, I totally took this as an opportunity to ramble about myself on an only marginally related topic! :P But again I think it's a great insight and makes complete sense to me.
wow this is great. I work as a one on one with a little girl with autism, and expressing herself is the hardest problem she has. Now I can look at the situation more and ask myself, am I holding her to a certain standard based on what a normal female should be. I think a lot of her problems are gender neutral, but now I will be more conscious of things I am pushing her for that she is just not capable of.
Thank you
Thanks for this! I'd love to read more on women and mental disability on feministing!
My father is an aspie. I am on the bipolar spectrum. I relate to a lot of what other commenters have shared here, especially katemoore and Kathleen6674
I'm someone who has many symptoms of Aspberger's but has never been diagnosed. Whatever, I can incredibly relate to this article. I've always had difficulties with peers due to my social awkwardness, troubles with expressing empathy/sympathy (although I definitely feel it), and so forth, but now I wonder if a lot of that had to do with the fact that I'm female in addition to being socially-awkward. Guys I've known who had social issues seem to get away with it, because guys don't need to be emotional. But in girls, it's expected for us. You see it with romantic expectations too - shyness in guys is often seen as "cute" by girls, as is a guy who is overly logical and hides his emotions. However, the same traits in girls are seen by guys as "frigid" or "bitchy" or - one I've heard way too many times - "arrogant." I've learned to stop caring about what guys think about me who aren't worth my time anyways, but this tormented me greatly as a teenager. Not like I can do anything about it, though, as much as I've tried to become more social and extroverted.
i am a male who has A.S. and can relate to many of things that you have written; moreover, I think it's ridiculous that anyone (of any gender) should be expected to constantly smile and exude warmth and sympathy if/when that is not we are feeling. When society comes to respect us for who we are, people are not so quick to judge or call our social skills into question, perhaps we will have (more) reason to smile and be happy. It is time we 'aspies' stood up for ourselves and pointed out all the privileges that neurotypical people take for granted (the same way feminists have identified and critiqued male privilege, non-whites white privilege, queers straight privilege, etc.) in effort to raise consciousness about neurological diversity.
I think this is such an important topic to think about - especially when it comes to how we socialize girls (and boys, for that matter).
I don't have AS, but I do have some of the characteristics, and I think this is simply problematized because we have these ridiculous gendered expectations in place. As a child I was always fascinated by mechanical things, and very detailed, and really, really good at math, which often made more sense to me than the more unsystematic aspects of the world. In fact, I still tend to conceptualize things mathematically (in my head everything can be expressed in terms of a mathematical function), but I've just been taught by my culture not to express this. On the other hand, I'm very good at picking up on social dynamics, which often seem mechanical to me, as well as the emotional reactions of other. But I tend to be quite detached. It's like I understand perfectly the social dynamic and what response is expected of me, I just feel unmotivated to exhibit that response unless it's something I'm actually feeling. I think of it as a hyper-sensitivity to inauthenticity. I think this is just naturally a part of my personality, but because I'm female, it often seemed problematic to me. I remember thinking that I was emotionally dysfunctional at times. But now I see this in perspective and realize that it just isn't the case that every person is going to fit into the gendered expectations for them. And I think that most people just learn how to act out the script and "pass" as a person who really fits their gender category. I don't believe for a minute that most of the over-exaggerated emotional expressions that many young women and girls exhibit are authentic. I also don't believe that most men and boys aren't feeling many emotions that they don't express due to a fear of appearing to be unmasculine. I believe we've all learned how to put on an act in order to "pass," and breaking down these ridiculous cultural attitudes about what's "normal" for men and women is one of the most valuable gifts we can give to future generations.
YES to every damn sentence you just said.
=)
Oh and I love this one:
"It's like I understand perfectly the social dynamic and what response is expected of me, I just feel unmotivated to exhibit that response unless it's something I'm actually feeling. I think of it as a hyper-sensitivity to inauthenticity."
That's me in a nutshell. =)
And I think that most people just learn how to act out the script and "pass" as a person who really fits their gender category.
This needs to go on a plaque and be put in the Feminist Museum of Awesome Things People Have Said.
Thank you so much for posting this, it really is fascinating. As a "normal" woman, I too get irked by people sobbing near me, do not like children or being "motherly," and I am constantly labeled as a bitch. It is hurtful to be labeled as such when it's just the way I am, mental illness or not. Again, thank you so much for taking the time to write this.
Thanks so much for writing this! As a fellow feminist woman with Asperger's, it means a lot to me that someone else on the spectrum is willing to "stick her neck out" and say "Yes, I'm living with Asperger Syndrome, and I'm a feminist as well".
While my feminist awakening predated my Asperger's diagnosis, I couldn't hear the diagnosis and not notice the same intersectionality of issues you mentioned above. Your paragraph on the relationship between your Asperger's symptoms and people's perceptions of you as "bitchy" or "arrogant" were articulate and completely relatable.
So thanks again for relating the situation so articulately; better than my first feminist-Asperger's impulse (a rant on Saint Jenny, the New McCartyhism, and whoever made her drink the Kool-Aid in the first place).
I also couldn't help but read this without automatically thinking of the famous "Caring for Your Introvert" article. http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200303/rauch
The author, Jonathan Rauch, briefly mentions the way that while introverts in general are oppressed by our extroverted society, introverted women have it particularly bad:
"Female introverts, I suspect, must suffer especially. In certain circles, particularly in the Midwest, a man can still sometimes get away with being what they used to call a strong and silent type; introverted women, lacking that alternative, are even more likely than men to be perceived as timid, withdrawn, haughty."
God, if I had a penny for every time someone called me "haughty" or "arrogant"...
I've got Nonverbal Learning Disorder, which is on the autistic spectrum and is sort of similar to Asperger's. I just want to say that even though it's called "disorder", I don't like being referred to as having a "disease" or "illness". Having NLD or Asperger's actually makes you BETTER at certain things, for example, I taught myself to read and could read adult novels in the first grade. I really believe that my brain just works differently, and there is nothing wrong with that. I struggle a lot with some things, but really, who doesn't? My things might just be a little different from other people's. Viva la neurodiversity!
Oh, this is interesting. I'm a woman looking into diagnosis for an ASD, so this speaks to me quite a bit. I've been lucky, in that I've managed to teach myself how to pass fairly well, and I suspect I'm in an environment where social awkwardness is more accepted among both genders so I didn't get many of those comments. I do still remember the horror of having my flatmate start crying, being completely confused as to what to do or how to react, trying to hug her because it was the only thing I could think of although I really dislike touch and then nearly going out of my mind because it felt so awful.
How gender plays out wrt the autistic spectrum is fascinating, both in terms of these kinds of things and in terms of preconceptions (I lean more and more towards the idea that women on the higher-functioning end of the spectrum are underdiagnosed because the diagnostic criteria is biased towards men, for instance.)
I have learning disabilities that are similar to AS. In fact, my current psychiatrist said that I may have AS, though the test for it would cost $800, and the benefits of a diagnosis would be limited at my age (I am 39 now, was 38 at the time). I am a man so my traits of social awkwardness, and sometimes ineptness, may be easier for me to live with than they are for a woman but they are still very difficult at times.
I do have sometimes have a problem with unwritten social rules. I found it ironic, at first, that this post was linked to Renee's blog because these very disability symptoms caused me to have a fallout with her. I can admit that I was wrong and can see why now after the fact but didn't perceive that what I said was wrong at the time. After all, I wasn't attacking her family as she made it out to be, I was expressing concern for what I perceived was her mistreatment of them. And I spurred on by what I saw as her mistreatment of Sandalstraps (a botched attempt at empathy to be sure, since Sandalstraps). Still, as I said I now know I was wrong and would have apologized to Renee had she given me a chance.
Instead she decided to call me hateful names while banning me from her blog, so that I couldn't defend myself in a forum where most of her readers would see it. By doing this she reminded me quite a bit of the bullies I grew up with. Though I mostly tried to ignore her since writing my response to her on my blog back in September, I occasionally would see her name come up and relive the anger and hurt that she caused me. This was especially true when she spoke as an advocate for the disabled, such as when she criticized">https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=36369569&postID=1282383526961948808&isPopup=true>criticized Becky C. for jokingly using the word "retarded." This seemed doubly ironic since Becky has always seemed like one of the kindest and compassionate people I could ever hope to know, while Renee showed no tolerance or mercy for my disability-influenced behavior.
But now that I have learned about Renee's illnesses/disabilities I feel sorry and wish I could reconcile with her. I am afraid, though that if I try to post on her blog again or even try to e-mail her that she will unleash a new torrent of bile. But now at least I understand her rage. She always said it was because of being a black woman, but I've known black women who have grown up in times and places where they were likely to experience much more discrimination than she ever has in late 20th/early 21st century Canada, and don't or didn't have her hair-trigger temper. But the pain, the feeling of helplessness, the inability to do things most people take for granted, I can understand how that would cause someone to lash out. So Renee, if you read this and you want to bury the hatchet, please let me know.
Oh and Lydia, excellent post! Sorry for the long digression, but I felt that I needed to say everything that I said.
I'm sorry to hear about your disability, but your words attacking her parenting were inexcusable. I'm not sure how you claim your disability could account for the assumptions you made about her style of parenting and the way you attacked her based on this assumption. Bad logic and offensive behavior is bad logic and offensive behavior, and you can't expect someone who's attacked in such a personal and public way to respond.
I admitted I was wrong, not sure what more I could do. I know my disability is no exceuse but lots of people cross lines when in the heat of verbal comment. Renee herself admitted to doing that:
http://www.womanist-musings.com/2008/11/mra-apology.html
Being human sometimes I do the wrong thing. Having a disability that makes it hard to perceive social boundaries may lead me to do the wrong thing more than others. I don't know why that makes me unworthy of forgiveness, though.
PS the 1st "link" in my1st post may be too garbled to follow. so here it is again:
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=36369569&postID=1282383526961948808&isPopup=true
I did not see his comments to Renee, but autism spectrum disorders and related conditions can seriously impair people's ability to figure out how to express themselves in a way that is not offensive to people. While I value feminism's insistence that people address each other respectfully, I am concerned that condemning people for using the wrong words or making misplaced comments can become a form of structural violence against people on the autism spectrum. There needs to be a balance between not condoning people hurting each other and realizing that sometimes people who say hurtful things don't intend to be hurtful.
I'm familiar with the social impact of Autism and AS, and actually have a couple of relatives on the spectrum. I agree that they often have trouble expressing themselves in a way that's conventional and not offensive. But it's hard to justify his comments in this case. The topic itself (personally attacking someone's parenting style, personal relationships, and family setup in retaliation for a comment they made to another commenter) is out of line. Here's his comment:
Renee, you condemn parents for spanking but I am willing to bet that your treatment of your children amounts emotional abuse more damaging than the so-called physical abuse of the average spanking parent. After all your children are boys, males, future men and clearly males can do no right, never deserve praise or kind words for anything. Your partner may get off on that sort of treatment, but your boys did not choose to be born to a man-hating mother. Of course, maybe you make exceptions for your own children. One can hope.
I find it hard to believe that he had no idea that was going to be offensive. In fact, it seems to me that his words were intentionally chosen to be as hurtful as possible.
I don't really feel that I'm in a strong position to speak to that because I didn't see the context and don't know what was going through his head. However, it is entirely possible for a person on the autism spectrum to say something like that with their mind focused only on the issue and the intensity of their view on it, without ever really understanding the effect that their words will have on the person they're addressing. What is "obvious" varies a lot depending on one's neurology.
As I said I Rachel, I admit I was wrong. I was angry and wanted to express my anger. I was angry that Renee seemed so dismissive of the feelings of men (and to a lesser extent of white people) even those who tried to befriend her. I overreacted as many people do, whether on the Autistic Spectrum or neurotypical. Maybe people like me (those of us who have social perceptual problems whether officially diagnosed with AS or not) go further over the line than so-called normal people do. But if you want to hate me or hold a grudge against me feel free, I'm an adult and I can take it.
Kisekileia, I hope I'm not out of line saying I feel much love toward you for defending me. I can understand disdain for hugging - I feel uncomfortable hugging or being touched by people I'm not really close to. But, I would like give you a big hug if it was OK. No one who really knows you could think you were cold and heartless.
My pointing out that your comment was out of line does not amount to hating you or holding a grudge against you. It's perfectly valid for a person to take on the comments or claims of another commenter without attacking them personally, as you did to Renee. This is the distinction between respectful arguments and ad hominems, and I am not attacking you personally, but only your words. Does that distinction make sense?
Yes what you say does make sense. I guess I overreacted again when I accused you of hating me. It does seem, though, that like Renee, you seem to think that there is nothing I can do to earn forgiveness.
Thank you for explaining this. It is very helpful for people with Asperger's to read clear, logical explanations of social behaviour, so that we can consciously learn the social skills we cannot learn instinctively. Also, many people with Asperger's have experienced so much bullying that we are instantly on our guard whenever someone says something negative about us, so it is very helpful to us if you let us know when your criticism was directed just at specific actions, not at us as people.
Oops! Kisekileia, I confused you with Lydia Encyclopedia. Sorry about that. Hopefully, you can tell the relevant parts of my post from the irrelevant ones based on that. If not, let me know and I will do my best to clear any confusion.
Aww, thank you. :D
Oops didn't know the links wouldn't work here. Well, it seems that I had some sloppy HTML that I didn't notice in the preview, so the one URL is showing. The other one is http://funktardtroll.blogspot.com/2008/09/never-trust-communist.html
I wanted to comment about your experience at the wrong planet forum and the reason for there being so many sexist comments. Now I have aspergers, and being a male you are right in stating the fact that my behaviour isn't seen as that ab-normal and it is easier being guy. However when it comes to sexual relationships that isn't true.
Men approach women, not other way round. I can't read body language, I find very difficult to gage what other people are thinking. Frankly I fake alot of my interactions with other people, I know the rules, and how I'm suppose to respond in a given situation. When it comes to dealing with women there don't appear to be any rules to follow.
For example, when should a man approach a women. Should he be honest in his initial approach? Now it seems obvious to me that the only reason you would approach a complete stranger is because you like the way they look. You have no other data. Yet to state this truth is considered rude. Okay, so you should get to know the women first, find out if you are compatible. Like the same films, doing the same things, want to spend time with each other. That seems like a reasonable rule.
Yet I have been told by women that this is a no-no, it is seen as exploiting a friendship. The guy was always after something else. In this case there appears to be no rule, no correct way to behave. It is this like of rules, about how to approach, what can and cannot be said, how fast to progress a relationship; which makes this very difficult for aspergers guys.
I'm sorry, but that's utter bullshit.
Women are the ones who, the script goes, get approached. That's all well and fine, but what about the ones who don't?
And when you have no idea how to talk to people, when every attempt you make to befriend people ends in failure, and when you're in tears all the goddamn time, people don't.
Tonight the basketball team in my town reached the NCAA finals. There are parties all over town. No matter how much I want to do something tonight, I am in my room alone.
It does seem to me from my observations of WrongPlanet.net (where I post as archdude - http://www.wrongplanet.net/forums-profile-viewprofile-u-15369.html) that in general women on the Autistic Spectrum have an easier time finding relationships and sexual partners than men. Not that I don't sympathize with those women (ASD or otherwise) who do want sexual/romantic relations but can't find them because of not fitting society's mold of "what a woman should be." I think people of both sexes and all orientations need to challenge societal expectations of what dating and sexual relationships "should" be.
Part of that, I think, is because people with Asperger's tend to fit best in geek culture, which tends to be mostly male. In a situation where men outnumber women, women tend to have an easier time finding partners than men.
Reminds me of the time some one bought their new baby to work and my sister didn't want to hold it. Unbelievable the bull shit she had to put up with for not having the expected "mother instinct" Some how some way we have to get this garbage out of our society.
Don't I know it? I don't really have the "maternal instincts", either. Yeah, I am PROBABLY, in all likely hood, a young woman with Aspergers, as my psychiatrist suspected it, though I never went through with the testing (as I didn't want to confront that at the time).
Yeah, I remember one time, my cousin left his baby with me, even though I made it clear to my mom (she had agree to babysit him earlier, not me) that I DIDN'T want to baby-sit, but I otherwise do love my nephew, but because I didn't know how to deal with babies (still don't...), I grew quite anxious, especially when the baby started crying. I was running around with the boy screaming in my arms (not in the literal sense), panicking, I couldn't put him down (there was no special area for him) looking for SOMEONE, ANYONE, to take the baby from me, and even though it had only been about five minutes, it was those five minutes that the poor baby was probably in the most danger, because I wasn't holding him right, and I WASN'T calm, much to my father's dismay.
Even though Dad was justified in being dismayed (he was coming there to pick up my brother or sister, NOT to watch me run around like a chicken with its head cut off, and with a crying baby in my arms; I must have looked like I had no sense in my head), he criticized me for "not being maternal enough" and that I should have known how to hold a baby.
This scares me. If I behaved like this around a crying baby when I was only left alone with him for five minutes, then I REALLY don't want to see what my "maternal instincts" would do to my REAL hypothetical baby if I ever have one. And my dad EXPECTS me to have one, which is something that I am now resolved not to do, because I'm afraid that if I ever had a baby, I'd unintentionally hurt it, or worse, all because I don't seem to have instincts.
It's hard, and I get anxious around children, and especially babies. (Unless I'm playing with a child; I don't seem to know how to handle a baby, especially when it cries)
Yes, It is quite privileged of me to object to someone saying that awkward boys get through life without difficulty, when that isn't true in my experience.
In my experience, awkward girls were just left alone to be loners, aside from the occasional nasty comment. Boys, on the other hand, were a freak circus and boxing fodder.
Imy sf awkward girls were labeled sluts at my school, wouldn't I have heard about it?
damn it, this was supposed to be a reply to 'who ate my avocado'
I have AS, too, and let me tell you, it does NOT help men!
I refused to conform to the 'tough guy' image that my peers tried to impose on me, and as a result, I was bullied mercilessly. All throughout the third and fourth grades, I was beaten up by other kids on a daily basis (oh yeah, being called a 'cold bitch' is sooooo much worse than that). I didn't dare tell the teachers, because if I did, the bullying would've gotten worse. I come from a very touchy-feely family that never respected my boundaries, so I never fit in anywhere, really. I may be handsome, but I've never had a girlfriend because I didn't have the social prowess to read women (and yes, men DO need both). This caused me terrible emotional anguish.
Really, I'm quite sick of hearing how easy men have it. Until you have lived as a man for at least a year, as Norah Vincent did, you have no right to complain about so-called 'male privilege'.
Wow, Phil!
I'm sorry if I'm reading your reply wrong, but this reads in many ways like a strawperson defense. Like I said, maybe I'm reading you wrong, but it seems like you're creating issues that aren't stated in the text of the entry.
First, you seem to suggest Lydia writes that men with Asperger Syndrome are or were less bullied than women with Asperger Syndrome. She wrote nothing about the bullying of boys or men, stating only that women on the Autism Spectrum are verbally bullied for not acting like "normal" women and engaging emotionally with others when "society" deems it appropriate. She also states that men she knows with Asperger Syndrome (all presumably cissexual males) don't report the same response to similar behavior. Therefore, in her experience, emotional distance of men is more socially acceptable than emotional distance of women and, more specifically, of her.
Second, you bring up your experience being bullied, as though physical blows and direct name-calling are automatically more damaging than prolonged and repeated social stereotyping and exclusion. However, it's proven fact that feminine bullying is different from masculine bullying. There's less physical confrontation, but the results are equally damaging.
For example, rather than throwing punches or body-checking the bullied individual into a wall, a female bully will take steps to socially alienate the girl being bullied. Cutting remarks to other girls meant to damage the bullied girl's reputation, backhanded compliments, and in-jokes which exclude the girl being bullied are common. If you've seen "Hairspray" (2008) or "Mean Girls", you've seen this sort of bully in Amber Von Tussle and Regina King. The TV movie "Odd Girl Out" is another example, where the bullying damages the victim enough for her to inflict life-threatening self harm. To stereotype, girls' bullying is indirect and social, while boys' bullying is direct and physical. Both are damaging long-term as well as immediately, but because boys' bullying is more obvious, it's easier to counteract.
Also, since most AS women are as bad as most AS men at picking up on social cues, an AS girl might not realize she's being bullied until after she's gone home for the night, or possibly after the antagonist has stopped bullying her and instead begun targeting someone else. This adds embarrassment and frustration on top of the emotional anguish caused by the original act of bullying.
Third, it seems you misunderstand "male privilege". It doesn't mean that men have less responsibilities or social constraints than women, but rather that the male experience, including responsiblities and constraints, are seen as the norm, or "default". Therefore, the average male experience is seen as the yardstick of the "typical", even as the individual male experience deviates.
Again, I'm sorry if I misunderstood your reply, but you seemed to read something in Lydia's original post which I did not read at all, and I was trying to address the female-Asperger's position on the issues you brought up.
Oops. "Hairspray" (2008) was meant to be "Hairspray" (2007). I'd forgotten which year the movie was released when I typed my above comment.
Both men and women with Asperger's syndrome take a great deal of abuse because of it. However, male and female Aspies tend to take abuse for different things. Male Aspies, I suspect, are more likely to be abused for physical awkwardness and general lack of physical and social dominance, while women with Asperger's are more likely to be abused for inability to follow the social rules women are expected to follow. People with Asperger's are noncomformists by nature, and society punishes nonconformity regardless of gender.
I like the point you make. I am not sure I understand why others feel there needs to be a competition between which gender suffers more when it seems that prescribed gender roles are what's commonly toxic.
Good points, and thank you! Your comment was a great response to my "but girls are bullied like 'this', not like 'that'" essay... I hesitate to call it a rant, but it does come close.
I was responding to what I percieved as Phil's misreadings of the original post, and perhaps I should have saved the text on my computer for a few days and reread it before posting. I never meant to imply that the bullying AS men and boys receive is less damaging to them than the bullying AS girls and women receive, but simply to point out that girl-on-girl bullying is generally harder to spot. As such, it's not as easily detected by (mostly NT) parents, educators, and other adult guardians and advocates, let alone processed on-the-spot by AS women and girls themselves. It's harder to stop because the signs aren't as immediately obvious.
In retrospect, it would have been more accurate for me to say "*a* female-Asperger's position" rather than "the female-Asperger's position", since I am just one of many women on the Autism Spectrum and an authority on no other women but myself. I shouldn't have put forth the perception that I meant to speak for all AS women.
Lydia,
I greatly enjoyed your article. I have Tourette's syndrome which is in right in the Autism/Asperger/ADD/ADHD spectrum. So of course, every day I deal with people making fun of what is actually extremely irritating and quite painful. Tourette Syndrome runs in my family and I experience moderate to severe symptoms including copralalia and echolalia (so yes, I curse and repeat noises and words) and have physical tics as well. In addition, I feel very awkward in situations where I have to touch people i.e. my job. I work in retail and am often put in a situation where I have to do bra fittings. I cannot do it, I simply cannot, I get so overwhlemed and freaked out, I just can't touch people in that way. I can touch friends and family normally, but for some reason, knowing when it is appropriate to touch people in a social situation and how give me extreme anxeity. For refusing to do bra fittings I am constantly sneered at for being "lazy" or just being "stuck up". As a woman I am just expected to be able to be touchy and feely and be ok with touching another womans' breast. I also get labeled quite frequently as a bitch, or heatless by many of the men I have dated, for not wanting to cuddle very much, or constantly be touching, and not wanting to kiss in public. I also have dated several men who date me just to say they'v dated somone with TS. SUPER irritating. Even worse: the man who thinks its funny or feels he's doing me a favor. Sorry my post is all over the place.
My cousin has had TS since she was 5. She is 23 now, so she has basically grown accustomed to the reactions she gets in public, but I haven't. I get pretty annoyed when I see people staring. Her symptoms are less severe now, but at her most difficult times she would shout profanities, hit herself, and make other noises. I get it, her behavior is unusual, but I feel like adults should know better than to outwardly gawk at a person with a visible disability.
I have AS (mildly, I was told) but yeah, I get where you're coming from. Thanks for saying this it really means a lot ^ . ^ (good luck out there).
Certainly, qualities like caring and nurturing, and many other 'feminine' qualities are good things to have, just as there are 'masculine' qualities (courage, rationality) that are good, just as there are negative qualities for each, (irrationality, violence) but they're division into feminine and masculine groupings are really kind of arbitrary.
Women are expected to be more socially able. So often it is taken for granted when they do have the right qualities, and then it is a horrible thing when they lack it. Men also have the same problem, though with a nearly opposite set of qualities.
People should learn to accept people for who they are, and not reject people just because they didn't act the way they expected them to act. That would be a quality ideal regardless of gender.
Thank you for your comments! I have just been diagnosed with the condition, I'm 33. I have spent my entire life hiding my natural traits in order to "fit in" with society. I went to a therapist because people kept telling me that I was depressed. I was angry and exhausted. The therapist knew almost immediately what I had. It helped that he specializes in autistic disorders. Even he said it is rare for women, of course I had a temper tantrum and argued with him. I won! I have been angry and exhausted for years because I constantly have to "fit in" with the world. Can't they learn to fit in with us for a change? Do I always have to explain why I have a cold stare when someone is trying to cry on my shoulder? It's not that I don't care, I just show it differently. I would prefer to talk it out. I can reason with anyone in a calm logical fashion. I don’t criticize them for that. I know that I see things a different way. I am not caught up in others. I have been reading a lot about my condition online and I am shocked at what I have been reading. There is one site that had several men and women with AS that seemed almost proud of having AS because it gave them an excuse to act angry at the world and proud that they are psychotic. What??? I have never wanted to hurt anyone in any way. I don't hate others. People find me strange, but I find them strange. I think it is an even exchange. I care about others; I just make sure they know that I am not the one to seek to get comfort. They don't hate me for it.
I am never going to apologize to anyone for the way I act. I have spent my entire life modifying my behavior. To those out there that feel ashamed for not having a network of 1,000 friends. So what! You are a perfect version of who you are supposed to be. Stop being sorry and except that you are different, it truly is a good thing.
Now for all the men out there with AS, Yes, sure women are the ones that are "approached", but don't you think that having AS would make women with AS act somewhat awkward and possibly cause men to lose interest pretty quickly? Hmmm? Well, it does. It doesn't help to be approached and then not know how to "act" to keep the man interested. Women also have to know how to “read” men and figure out what their intentions are. I do believe that AS causes impairment in that ability in both men and women.
There is not enough known out there for those of us suffering with AS. We need to stop beating each other up and trying to figure out who is worse off. Sure you are angry, guys. We are all angry. It’s hard to go through life being told you are flawed and constantly have your behavior criticized.
Women with AS are just as justified for being angry for the way we are treated. Emotional abuse is still abuse. It is still damaging and life altering. I think I would have preferred someone to openly beat me up occasionally than to act like my friend for years just to find out that they are spreading malicious lies behind your back to all the females in their social network. It’s always hard to find out you were lied to and used for years because you just didn’t know any better.
I choose to stop being angry. I choose to not apologize for who I am. I love who I am. I make more sense to me than the rest of the world does. :)
Thx for good post!
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