I have always been aware that feminism, and those who hold feminist beliefs, is deeply linked to many tenants of non-violence and a majority of women I know who identify as feminist also embrace the ideas of pacifism and non-violent living. And that's a admirable thing, which I respect them greatly for. However, it's become a bit of an issue between myself (and a few of my friends) and several feminists that we all know mutually. And here's the rub:
I belong to a gym that offers sessions and classes in both boxing, martial arts, and what's referred to as MMA (mixed martial arts or ultimate fighting). These classes are women only and taught and referred by women who have been in the sport for a long time. And a lot of times, we'll hold friendly sparring and fighting bouts, just to train and test each other, and most of the time, we're allowed to invite friends and family to watch and cheer us on. A few weeks ago, some friends of mine who are open feminists came to see a friendly match between me and a friend. Now, during an MMA match, one of the ways you can win is to "tap out" the other person (which pretty much means getting them into some kind of chokehold or headlock that will cause them to tire or lose breath and therefore submit). You can also win by straight knocking out the other person (which can involve knocking them out or just causing them to go down and stay down). It is common during an MMA match to get struck many times, bleed heavily (especially from the head) and display injuries like cut lips, black eyes, ect. Well, the match ended with both me and her banged up pretty bad. I approached my friends after the match (which ended with a hug, by the way), and they were appalled. One of them said that she could not believe that two women could do that to one another. I didn't understand, and asked her to elaborate a bit. She continued by asking how I could call myself a feminist after taking part in something like that. She stated that two women attacking each other, beating each other, causing that much physical damage to each other, couldn't really feminists. "Violence is never feminist!" she argued, going on to say that violence, which is so often used against women, could never be something we should accept or do ourselves. And it perplexed me.
And I don't agree with her. I have wracked my brain, but I still seem unable to see her side of the argument. Yes, sports like those I take part in are violent. They involve injuries, blood, and the like. But so do many sports. And I'd argue that violence itself, or taking part in a violent sport, doesn't disqualify one from being a feminist. My friend seemed especially upset by the fact that, at one point, I did manage to get my opponent flipped over and into a basic chokehold to try to tap her out. Perhaps this triggered her (I don't know her background enough to know if she was ever victimized), and I now realize that I probably should have warned her that MMA is a very violent sport. But I still think that taking part in something like MMA doesn't mean one can't support feminism. Yes, I tried to choke out my opponent. She tried to knock me out several times. We kicked and punched and struck each other. That's the nature of our matches. And I'm not totally convinced that violence, in and of itself, is always wrong. For instance, if a woman resisted a rape or other attack with violence, I doubt anyone here would think less of her for it. So I'm cynical to the argument that violence is always, always bad. And I don't think women who choose to engage in violent sport are less feminist for it. For me, the key is that it is happened in the context of SPORT. What everyone saw that day were two athletes who had trained and learned and practiced for a long time running up to our match, and a display of strength, skill, and determination from us both. We're friends, and we understand that we are opponents within the confine of the fight, and then, we leave it behind. The violence itself is a part of the sport, but it is not indicative of ill will, malice, or the like. And I think that's what distinguishes it - that the violence of MMA and our match is not attached (usually) to any bad feelings or desire to harm, embarrass, or injure the other person - it's a part of the sport that we take part in. And from the angle, I really don't think that feminism is enhanced or harmed by taking part in such things. I appreciate my friend's input, but I am not a non-violent feminist, and I don't think that makes me any lesser.
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Although more primitive societies will use violence as a means of entertainment (think gladiators, bearbaiting and dog fighting), I don't think what you're doing is at all the same. It's a martial art, a sport - not entertainment where a weak animal or slave is pitted against a much stronger animal or trained warrior. You take part in matches that have rules. You and your opponent agree to fight, you're presumably not too unequally matched, and you've both been trained. It's not like you were walking along on a sidewalk and suddenly pulled a woman onto the street and attacked her. Sometimes it's shocking to see such aggression, but in the end, it wasn't something that perpetuated violence against women.
I agree with you, is basically what I'm saying. I think your friends were confusing violence against women with a violent sport.
You can pretty much do what you want. People are going to have different views as to what is "feminist" and what actions are "non-feminist." Belief in an essential egalitarianism, equality for all and human decency works for me, personally, as does respect. And you can compete with respect, and some form of honor. I hate being punched, and I would probably not like to see a friend of mine in a fight, even just a sport fight, but that doesn't really have anything to do with feminism. I'm sure you can work this out with your friend, and I have no idea what your relationship is, but it's kind of strange for me when people try and tell me how to live my life. You two can probably agree to disagree or some such thing.
Involved in martial arts myself and I can't see why your friend would say that. As Eresbel said, fights have rules, and entered into by agreement, so I can't see why your friend would say it's not feminist? Maybe because physical fights are usually associated with men and quite a few people view them (men and fighting) as brutal and violent. It's a stereotype but one that holds true in general. So that it one reason she might have said that.
More women taking up martial arts can only be a good thing!
I've heard that kind of argument before, but I come down on your side of it. It's a violent sport, sure, but it's not like you were fighting your opponent *because* she was a woman or for being a woman. I played rugby, which you may know is pretty violent sometimes, though not as much as MMA, and I never felt it was unfeminist or antifeminist. In fact, I always felt it was pretty damn empowering to know that we could be as strong and fast and determined as we were, both individually and together as a team, and yeah, the violence of the sport was a part of that.
You want a subject that gets you labeled unfeminist (among the peaceful feminist crowd anyway)? Say that you're a feminist who owns a gun. Watch the sparks fly.
MMA isn't anti-feminist. Women not being allowed to play in a sport where they fuck each other up IS anti-feminist. So does she think that women shouldn't be allowed to?
Being against any kind of violence, sport or not, is one thing. But saying that mixed martial arts fighting is anti-feminist, is sort of sexist in and of itself.
MMA sounds really cool... where can I sign up?? Really!
I think that from what you've posted, it sounds like MMA is an empowering form of martial arts and exercise, and it's not used as a means to control people, such as sexual violence.
Keep up your hard work, it sounds awesome
Ummm.... isn't pigeon-holing women into demure, pacifist, dove-like creatures of innocence who would never raise a voice or a fist, pretty much the antithesis of feminism?
Your friends don't know what they're talking about. You aren't fighting someone because you feel like you need to prove your dominance or because you get some sick pleasure out of beating the c#$p out of someone. I take tae bo classes at my gym, which is similar except the hand-to-hand combat is limited and doesn't involve blood or serious injury. Still though, the martial-arts type movement provides a killer total-body workout, and leaves you with a feeling of accomplishment at the end. That's the real benefit I see in "fighting" workouts such as these - it's not about barbaric hurting-for-sport. So keep up the good work!
I consider myself a non-violent feminist, and I still agree with you. It's like everyone else is saying. You are playing a sport, where both opponents are voluntarily fighting. Yes its violent in nature, but its organized. It seems like a healthy way to get out agression to me.
I think a problem with feminism is that since women are enculturated to be self-effacing and endlessly accommodating, we've absorbed all these worthy but external causes into feminism 'til the proverbial steak we ordered comes out as pasta bolognese.
So accusations of non-feminism should be taken with a grain of salt, especially when the so-called 'feminist' policy does little service to women as people and as a political class.
Keep fighting. You're a great role-model for the rest of us in this regard.
I agree - this sort of thing is totally different from random acts of violence. It's more of a friendly competition than anything. It is certainly not inherently anti-feminist.
Of course, I would be slightly biased, as I'm a rather aggressive person and I'm hoping to take up jiu jitsu sometime over the summer, if I can scrounge the money.
non-violence and feminism are two separate ideologies. if anything this sport is pro-feminist- that is, it shows that you can kick ass and take names just like men.
So..... I have a question that I would like pondered. I have never been in a match with a woman. When I did martial arts at the dojo and in the military men only fought men and women only fought women. It was even broken down that officers fought officers and NCOs fought NCOs and joes fought joes. So when I got out of the military and went back to work I met women with more accomplished resumes than I. Red, blue, brown belts. What is your take on me wanting to pit her higher technical skill but lower strenght to my higher strength but lesser skill? I never did even though we jested about it often. I can take losing to a brown belt, but I don't think I want to be the guy who shows up to work after laying out an awesome right hook agaist a 140lb female, brown belt or no.
Women and men fight each other all the time at our studio. From a practical point of view, I LIKE fighting men. A large motivator for myself (and many other women) in martial arts is self-defense. If I am (Krishna forbid) ever attacked by someone, chances are overwhelming that my attacker with be a male, and much, much stronger than me. My female partners may have put me in the strongest choke-holds they could, but they PALED in comparison to holds male partners put on me. I think men can have an important role in women's self-defense courses, aside from just wearing the big suit so they can get kicked in the 'nads. I also think that all athletes, male or female, appreciate opportunities to challenge themselves, eg take on someone with lower technical skills but greater physical strength. So if you are comfortable with these women , and you KNOW they are interested in sparing with you (and not just being polite) then I say go for it. It also never hurts to work-up to the "right-hook-to-face-hard-as-I-can" point. Start out with light sparring and go from there.
There is a HUGE difference between violence used to suppress or humiliate another person and the violence in an athletic event. Our bodies are MORE than a means to carry our brains to and fro.
I've been a cerebral person my entire life, but took up kickboxing and Krav Maga a year and a half ago. I have found martial arts incredibly empowering: I OWN my body now in a way I never have before. My classes are largely comprised of women, and we occasionally spar with each other. Even though we are "against" each other in the bout, we never stop supporting and cheering each other on. For instance, I may use all of my physical capabilities to keep my partner in that choke-hold, but verbally I will cheer her on and I'm HOPING she will be able to escape and over-power me. We physically challenge each other, but we never stop RESPECTING each other.
I hope you'll be able to engage your pacifist friends in a meaningful debate, and I hope they will be open to new ways of thinking about feminism. Rock on with your bad MMA-self!!
I’ve had run ins like that with other activists to, usually when some one is packing around a lot of anger over something and just waiting to lash out. It taught me not to do it my self. I f I act all butt hurt every time some one says something against atheists or something sexist or gender stereotyping me as a man, how are we ever going to speak freely and get along with each other? I mean the fight is out there, not with each other.
I agree with you about mma to I have always wanted to take some classes but as a man I guess caught a complex about it some where along the line that made me feel like I would be just another macho clown who wants’ to fight some one, just like the guys I work with at the mine, or other street toughs I have known. Men are always being pushed to prove how tough we are etc. pushed to fight so I feel, in a way like I would be caving in to that bull shit. Still, I love the moves, what you do, the use of leverage, timing. I also like choreographed dance for the same reason it’s defiantly a sport done out of intellectual interest if a violent and bloody (and probably costly in terms of medical bills I would imagine) one.
whats that?
A lot of people still manage to confuse the terms feminine and feminist. A lot of women in my feminist theory course were aggravated by the extent to which the authors we studied trumpeted archetypal female virtues (like pacifism) that they found greatly constrictive.
So while it may be 'unladylike' to be able to brutalize someone and snap their arm, it is immanently practical to goal of avoiding violence and oppression, and that is the ultimately feminist.