It is not yet Friday, but I have a big Friday feminist fuck you to the men at my favorite bar last night.
We're just two girls at the bar and we feel like gazelles at the watering hole.
You want to buy me a drink? Fine. You want to buy my friend a drink? Fine. Does this mean that we are REQUIRED to talk to you? At all? I thanked you, now go away.
Thank you for the 3 dollar drink, I'm so glad I didn't have to break my bank for that extra rum and coke. Thank you. As a professional woman, I know I can't afford the 3 dollar drink, after I've already had six of them. That extra 3 bucks would really kill me. And why have you been making googly eyes at both of us all night, but only wait until we are already intoxicated to decide to buy us drinks? Fuck you.
After six dollars and fifty cents, we are supposed to fuck you?
I don't think so.
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You should have this whole post printed onto the back of a t-shirt. I love it!
What about "You want to buy me a drink? No, thanks"?
That wouldn't have gotten her a drink.
If someone wants to offer something to someone and that person wants it, they should be able to say yes thanks without there being strings attached unless those strings are very firmly pointed out before.
What those men should have said was 'Would you like a drink? In return, I'll be able to objectify you, ogle you and make the assumption that you will feel obligated to sleep with me because of generosity'. Or something like that.
I totally don't believe in this whole "men buying women a drink" custom, and I personally don't practice it.
A bar is not a liquor charity, it's a business that profits by selling alcohol to customers.
If you can't afford a drink, you shouldn't be in there.
So, I always assume that every customer in a bar has the money to buy their own drinks, and treat them accordingly.
In other words, you are not getting a drink from me unless we're close friends and it's your birthday today.
I've had women get ENRAGED at me because I struck up a conversation with them, and didn't offer to buy them a drink.
But no matter - I'm not the administrator of a free alcohol distribution charity, it's not my job to pay for you drinks!
i think it's because it's not your job to buy women drinks that when it's done, it's a nice gesture that is supposed to break the ice.
Hmmm...I really feel like something is missing here. I'll wait for more comments, but I can't say I agree with this.
I especially can't agree with squabbling over the 3 dollar drink vs the 6 dollar drink...I mean, this sounds just mean. I know there are a lot of jerks out there but this doesn't strike me as a very productive way to deal with the situation.
hmmm on second glance I'm probably misreading this 6.50, 3 dollar thing. But I agree with the sentiments of MissKitty, Oswid and Jaja...
And I wonder, have you every offered another person a drink? If so what is your expectation of the interaction?
I thought the money thing was saying that each drink was $3, so with two women he spent $6, maybe plus a tip... The numbers didn't seem too important to the post.
Another option, instead of just saying no thanks, would be to say "I'll take the drink but I won't talk to you. Do you still want to buy me a drink?" and let him accept or decline.
Sounds reasonable to me.
But I wonder: would the guy be considered an asshole if he responded, "I see, sorry for bothering you," and left without actually buying the drink? Would that be proof that he was trying to buy access?
I agree with misskitty about giving the guy a disclaimer. If he decides to walk away I don't think that is douchy behaviour at all because he isn't necessarily just looking for sex (although that could be true in a lot of cases), but he is using the drink buying as an icebreaker for talking to a girl. He could simply be hoping that when they talk the girl finds him worthy of a second date. If he doesn't even get the chance then why would he spend the money?
Why can't she just buy her own drinks, and turn down the loaded "gift" of a free drink from a random guy, which DOES come with a whole lot of sexual expectations attached to it?
Was that directed at me? I've said a bunch of times that she should just turn down the drink if she doesn't want to talk to the guys.
You know what is implied when a man asks to buy you a drink, and you accept anyway. Why is it that I'm not sympathetic?
It is implied that he is interested in her, not that he is purchasing the use of her body for sexual intercourse--hell, he's not even purchasing her attention. Get a grip, chief.
"It is implied that he is interested in her, not that he is purchasing the use of her body for sexual intercourse--hell, he's not even purchasing her attention. Get a grip, chief."
I think you addressed this comment to the wrong person.
Now, if you had said "Get a grip, ravenlox_82" you'd be spot on.
Actually, based on the content of the comment, "get a grip questioning?" would be the appropriate screen name to use. But in this case I'd just say "chief" is probably a generic nickname.
Heh. Clearly Martian humor is wasted on you Earthlings. :-)
War of the Worlds is pretty funny 70 years later.
Actually, to most men, the whole POINT of buying women drinks is to get sexual access to her body at some point in the near immediate future.
That is the only reason that most men would give free alcohol to some random woman who they don't know.
And yes, many of these men indeed do have the date rapist mentality that the woman "owes them" sexual contact in return for the drinks, in direct proportion to how much money he spent.
And if the man is in a bar that's his regular hang out spot, other men will regard him as a chump and a sucker if he doesn't enforce his "right" to some level of sexual contact with that woman in return for that drink.
In other words, it's a totally sexist rape culture-oriented custom, that men should refuse to engage in, and that women would be a lot safer if they totally refused to participate in.
nice generalization there buddy. that total BS. buying a lady a drink doesnt stem from some rapist mentality. it's just a way to break the ice at a bar.
so what happens when men ask women to talk in a context where there are no drinks, like on the sidewalk? does that also stem from the rapist mentality?
Don't worry, a large billy goat will be along presently to kick him or her off the bridge.
So in other words, when they continually ask to take us home with them, we should go, because we asked for it?
questioning? said:
You know what is implied when a man asks to buy you a drink, and you accept anyway. Why is it that I'm not sympathetic?
ravenlox_82 replied to questioning? :
So in other words, when they continually ask to take us home with them, we should go, because we asked for it?
*************
When you preface with "In other words", you're supposed to rephrase what the other person actually said, not make up something completely different.
you shouldn't have taken the drink. the social contract is that the offer to buy you a drink means the guys liked you guys and wanted to at least talk. you accepted that agreement when you took the drink. if you didn't like them, why take the drink?
Maybe that is the current social contract. But maybe that social contract is one that she is looking to change.
The way I see it, he offered to buy her a drink assuming that if she agrees she must hold up her end of the "contract" and talk to him or flirt with him.
The idea that he needs (or thinks he needs) to pay money in order to interact socially with someone is antiquated, in my opinion, and pretty sexist considering that it is not commonplace for women to do this with men.
Accepting the drink and refusing to engage this person in conversation may be rude but it signals that her attention cannot be bought and is not for sale. If he wanted to talk with her he should do what any person would do in a situation outside of a bar: just walk up and start talking.
I agree with the others who have suggested accepting the drink as long as you state explicitly that you don't owe this person anything.
I think this is only fair if that person has been conditioned to think that he will get a conversation (or perhaps more) out of this transaction.
the second part of your post seems to go agaisnt the first part. if she didnt want to talk to him, it felt taking the drink in exchange for a contract is antiquated, she could have refused the drink and told him so. taking the drink and refusing to talk to him is hardly some feminist protest against an antiquated system. its just mean spirited.
i wonder how the poster has met dates at bars in the past. does she simply walk up to them and ask to talk to them,or does she provide a 'gift' or sorts. or maybe a suitor approaches her, but just happens to be one she actually likes, thus putting aside the notion he's seeking to buy her vagina
The point is that he's choosing to shell out money based on a certain expectation. Accepting the drink
It's not her responsibility to protect him from the possible financial ramifications of sexist stereotypes and rituals that he is perpetuating. It's his responsibility to figure out that that is not how quality social relationships and interactions are initiated.
I stated that I personally would consider it rude to accept the drink without agreeing to converse with him but doing so would still send a message.
A more appropriate and beneficial course of action would be to explain to him that buying her a drink makes no difference as to whether she wants to associate with him. That way he understands explicitly that if he chooses to buy a drink for her he cannot expect anything in return.
Refusing the drink altogether might shut down lines of communication. In any scenario she needs to make a point of explaining the circumstances. Maybe it's a chore when you're just trying to relax and have fun. But this social contract is so ingrained in our culture that she (and everyone else at the "bar scene") has a responsibility to make a statement about it if it really is as annoying and degrading as we're claiming it to be.
Wrong. Lots of high quality relationships begin with a drink.
There is a difference between offering to buy a drink as a nice gesture or a way to break the ice and using the drink as leverage or a bargaining chip.
It can simply be a nice gesture like bringing a bouquet of flowers when you're meeting someone for the first time. No one expects to get paid back in some way for the expense of the bouquet.
But the scenario that she is describing in the original post is not that way at all. It isn't a nice gesture it's presumptuous and predatory.
"Author Profile Page Lumix replied to jaja :
The point is that he's choosing to shell out money based on a certain expectation. Accepting the drink
It's not her responsibility to protect him from the possible financial ramifications of sexist stereotypes and rituals that he is perpetuating. It's his responsibility to figure out that that is not how quality social relationships and interactions are initiated."
Perhaps I misunderstood you. By "sexist stereotypes and rituals that he is perpetuating" I thought you meant buying a woman a drink. If you meant something else my comment is inapplicable.
Lumix,
We agree that the custom of men buying women drinks is sexist (and I'd go even further and say that it is a big part of rape culture here in America).
So, in light of that fact, why should she accept the drink in the first place?
Wouldn't it be more self protective of her to flat out turn down the drink, thereby extinguishing any claim that he might try and make on social and/or sexual contact with her?
If she takes his drink, she's signing on to that sexist rape culture-based social sexual contract.
If she says NO and refuses the drink, she is explicitly refusing to buy into that sexist contract in the first place.
Wouldn't that be the safer - and less sexist - path to take?
If she takes his drink, she's signing on to that sexist rape culture-based social sexual contract.
If she says NO and refuses the drink, she is explicitly refusing to buy into that sexist contract in the first place.
Wouldn't that be the safer - and less sexist - path to take?
these are big assumptions and problems built into rape culture.
1. a woman should work to protect herself more than a man should work to control himself. this is one of the most prevalent "rules" in sexism. how many emails have we all gotten about what women need to do to be safe? how many rape-victims have been told "well, you shouldn't have been there/done that/worn that/said that" while the rapist is simply ignored? there is no rape culture without rapists and it's not a woman's job/responsibility to convince a man not to violate her based on some ever moving goal-posts of proper ladyhood.
2. a drink is a drink - nothing more, nothing less. she's not buying into ANYTHING except her own possible enjoyment of the taste of the beverage. if she's at a party and a guy brings her a drink that DIDN'T cost anything, do you consider that to be a "contract" as well? if my best friend buys me a drink, am i obligated to fuck her? what if it's a male friend? do you see the broken logic here?
3. people in general have a right to accept or refuse any and all help/gifts/etc offered to them and the only expectation should be a grateful "thank you". the fact that we've become such a tit for tat society is really rather painful. if you offer a sandwich to a person on the street, is that person under contract to come home with you and fuck you? the sandwich probably costs as much or more than a mixed drink, so what's the difference? oh, right. a sandwich doesn't come handily filled with a substance that lowers inhibitions and makes "convincing" someone to have sex with you a lot easier.
argh - i jacked up the html. gregorybutler's quote (in italics) goes all the way to "path to take", just fyi.
In my experience guys plying girls in bars with drinks are usually looking for ones with the least self esteem, the ones who might think on some level that a trade is in order for the "debt" of having been bought a drink.
I agree with oswid_... just don't take the drink if it's not someone you're interested in conversing with.
I do think that if someone buys you a drink its polite to chat with them for a few minutes. If you don't want to talk with him at all, refuse the drink. But you certainly aren't obligated to keep talking with him if you don't like him after those first few minutes.
Eh, I'm not exactly an authority on the etiquette of drink-buying, but I thought the whole point when you buy someone a drink is that you create a pretext for conversation...? Like, "Oh, now we both have these drinks, let's get to know each other." It seems implied in the gift of a drink that conversation should at least occur.
I went on some dates a few summers ago that I first initiated by buying a guy a coffee. We'd talked in passing before and I thought he seemed cool, so I offered him a drink. Then we sat down together and chatted. I would have felt pretty miffed if I'd bought him the drink and then didn't talk to me.
Not to imply, of course, that the dynamics of a female buying a male a drink versus a male buying a female one are the same (especially when it's alcohol, not coffee), but I do think accepting a gift is emblematic of a certain connection. If you're not even interested in talking to someone, don't accept a drink from them.
Main point from my anthropology classes: gifts are not given freely. They bind people into some kind of relationship. There are expectations bundled into them. If you don't feel comfortable with fulfilling the expectations, don't accept the gift.
"After six dollars and fifty cents, we are supposed to fuck you?"
Why? What is your going rate?
Okay, that was seriously snarky, but you are the one approaching this strictly as a transaction. You raised the issue of the paltry sum; so, what sum would be sufficient? If you don't like that argument, don't use it.
You know you aren't a prostitute. Why interpret it as trying to buy sexual favors for the price of a drink? What is wrong with interpreting it simply that he is interested in getting to know you? That, on the chance that a chat might be welcome, that sharing a drink while chatting seems a fairly natural choice of activity? (Seeing as both of you are at, you know, a bar?)
He doesn't literally want to buy you a drink. He wants to talk with you. It might be more logical for him to simply walk up and say "Hi, my name is So Andso, may I talk with you?" so that when you decline, the issue of buying drinks doesn't muddy the question. It's a bit excessive, however, to interpret his offer of a drink as meaning he thinks you can be bought for the price of one.
"Everything is worth what its purchaser is willing to pay for it." Adam Smith.
Instrumentjamlord,
You know as well as I do WHY men buy drinks for random women at a bar. The "contract" is conversation now, sex later and the "terms" are however many drinks it takes to get her drunk enough to be willing to have sex with you.
It's a sexist contract, it's based on a rapist mentality, and every straight man in America has at some point practiced this type of sex-through-bribery method of trying to get physical contact with women.
It's also a truly rotten custom, that men should take the initiative of fighting to abolish.
So, instead of buying a woman a drink, why not just strike up a conversation for free, like you would with another guy?
And if it comes down to drink buying, how about alternating rounds (person 1 buys the drinks for both person 1 and person 2, then the next round person 2 buys the drinks for person 2 and person 1, and then person 1 buys the next round, and then person 2 and so on...)?
Wouldn't that be a whole lot less baggage ridden than the "men buy drinks for women in exchange for..." transactions?
I'd say that while you don't owe him anything, it would be polite to chit-chat for a minute or two if you accept his offer.
But I wasn't there, he could have offered in a completely lecherous, creepy way. Maybe then I would have declined, but hey, that's just me.
Its true that it would be clearer, gramatically, if the guy said "care to have a drink with me?" instead of "can I buy you a drink?" But the former is implied in the latter. The point of buying someone a drink is to sit there and chat for roughly the amount of time it takes to finish the drink. If you're not interested after that you certainly aren't obligated to keep talking to him or go home with him, but the point of the one drink is to have a conversation for a couple minutes and see if you have anything more to talk about after that.
Imagine someone you wanted to spend time with. It doesn't even have to be romantic-- sometimes people use this kind of thing to talk to a person they want to network with in a business context. If you want to talk to someone for a few minutes to pitch an idea or get advice on a project, and you say "hey, can I buy you a coffee?" and they say sure, and then take the coffee and walk away immediately-- wouldn't you be annoyed? The assumption when they agree to let you buy them a coffee is that you'll at least sit down there for a couple minutes and talk while you drink the coffee.
However, I know some guys will act like if they bought you a drink you're obligated to be theirs for the rest of the evening, and that is definitely not ok.
Hmmm...had to chime in because I think there is far too much apologizing for predatory men here!
I think the original poster is spot on!! Thanks for the post!
I get this all the time when I go out too.
Men are taught to be predatory...and treat women like "well...that's what they here for". I have actually had men shout angrily in my face for not accepting their sad little "advances".
Sorry - but when you are socializing - men treat you like a number. "Well...if I can't have her - the other one will do". It's total objectification.
When I go out - SOMETIMES I want to meet a guy. But when I do...I prefer to do the meeting precisely BECAUSE I do not want to feel like a rabbit just waiting to be trapped.
I have been groped, pushed around and shoved by predatory men. And the harassment is constant. So I have had to learn martial arts to defend myself. This is a woman's experience of socializing!!
We need to be teaching men that women are not "part of a numbers game". That we will not respond just because some arrogant git decides to "have" us. And we need to teach them that a drink does not entitle them to our vaginas!!!
You're assuming that every man is predatory, and that kind of stereotyping is just as dangerous as any "apologies" being offered. Not all men are predatory and not all men treat women like numbers while socializing.
I have to agree with the posters who have said that often, the guy just wants to talk. Of course, some see this as a transaction to lead to sex, and many hope that the talking will lead to sex (at some point, maybe not even that night), but in the end, it's just an ice breaker. If you're just there to hang out with your friends, then don't accept the drink.
Er..yes, in a way I AM assuming every man is predatory - and that's because most of the time men in bars assume I am there to have sex with them!
I only built up this protective wall because men made me. That's their fault, not mine.
Thank you so much!
I wrote the post when I was very angry, and it didn't make that much sense, but you got what I was trying to say!! Other people are trying to pick apart every sentence I wrote, that's not important.. the message i think is clear, and thanks for understanding!
thats sounds a bit like saving face. you never raised any of those facts in your initial post
this was to be in response to you post about being intoxicated and chatty
Thank YOU ravenlox!!
It's really lovely to hear the truth about for once! You were spot on! I spend most of my time trying to avoid predatory men in bars...so your story really struack a chord with me!
What really amazes me here though...is just how many people are trying to defend these idiots! will carry on replying to dissenters. People HAVE to get that male-entitlement is rampant if we want women to be safe and happy! Thanks again.
Why let the guy buy you a drink if you don't want to talk to him? Like the Governor of Louisiana decrying federal spending, you lose some credibility criticizing the system when you're milking it for all you can.
Aleks- that is a very naive response if you read my comment!
Many predatory men don't give you much of a choice not to accept a drink form them!
So you accept it (any many women have been taught to be so polite as to do this)...and you be polite - and hope then, that they will leave. And many times, they don't, so you are stuck.
Many men can be so very predatory...and have no rights to be!!
This is exactly what I was trying to say. Thank you!
These men that bought us drinks knew we were already intoxicated and chatty, so there was no need for any more alcohol, and they were trying to take us home for sex! Anyone that thinks they were just trying to start a conversation or "get to know us" is completely naive!
Ravenlox,
That's the POINT, of course they were trying to get you even drunker than you already were for the explicit purpose of having sex with you.
That's a good reason for not ever accepting drinks from men, because, quite frankly, that's why the vast majority of men buy drinks for women - it's not about "getting to know you" it's about sexual contact by any means necessary.
This is especially true if the bar in question is a regular hang out spot for that guy - he has to "prove his manhood" to his friends by "scoring" and you are a means to that validation for him.
So, in that case, wouldn't you be better off exercising some personal autonomy and saying NO to that drink - considering all that's attached to it?
I guess I must be naive then. How did they force you to drink the drink? I read your post, you've been martyred by some guys who bought you drinks because you think they wanted to have sex with you. They probably did, guys in bars often do. Letting them buy you drinks was by no means promising to have sex with them, but it doesn't seem like some great act of victimhood either. I've been bought drinks by gay men who had intentions I had no idea of gratifying, but I don't feel victimized by them buying me drinks.
Many girls go to bars to get picked up by guys who open conversations by buying them drinks, so how were they supposed to know that you weren't interested in meeting guys without inquiring? You had every right to refuse the drink, or to accept the drink and leave it at that, but letting them buy you drinks and then ranting about how awful they were for buying them seems pretty bizarre.
So you wouldn't be creeped out if someone bigger or stronger than you was trying to talk you into a sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth drink? Again with the naive, or with just not understanding the fact that there are men out there who will try and get a woman REALLY DRUNK so that she cannot fight back. Wise up. And try listening.
I guess if someone bigger and stronger and creepy were trying to get me REALLY DRUNK so I couldn't fight back, I would naively decline drinks from them. Yeah, you've certainly proven me to be the dumb one.
That is what she did. Read her follow-ups in the thread. She started declining drinks when they wouldn't leave her alone. See my other comment re: LISTENING.
Yes, but even in the revised story she still took the first drink from guys she already despised. You're a fine one to lecture about listening.
I guess you MUST be naive because in my post I also said that men have groped, pushed and shoved me for rejecting their advances! That i had to learn martial arts to protect myself!
Why is it so difficult to understand taht for many women...not even socializing can always be fun due to male-entitlement!! predatory men stop us from enjoying every aspect of our lives...including the times when we are most likely to enjoy ourselves - in social situations!!
Your "gay man buying me drinks and I wasn't threatened" analogy doesn't really work because gay men don't have a history of victimizing straight men. This is all happening within a context that is important, a context of male entitlement and predatory behavior. I tend to decline the drinks just to avoid the situation altogether, but I agree with some of the other comments here -- in my experience it is sometimes difficult to decline without feeling threatened. Especially in a society where women are taught to be "polite" and passive and not make a scene, it sometimes seems easier to just accept and then quietly endure his advances, hoping he'll eventually lose interest and move on. Obviously this isn't a very empowered response, but I can certainly sympathize with (and not blame) women who go this route.
i think the proper context is attraction and breaking the ice. gay men have a history of being attracted to men, even straight ones, and would buy one drink to break the ice. same goes for hetero, lesbians or whatever. there is an understanding that the drink is a way to gain access to a conversation or maybe more.
perceptions of power between the groups is irrelevant. besides, in this context those being approached are the ones in power, since they can accept or reject your advances. or even accept your drink and dismiss your advances
Actually, perceptions of power are very relevant. This whole conversation is an exercise in understanding how people see power when it comes to this particular social setting.
In a respectful and civil setting, both individuals, the offerer and the offeree share power but there are tradeoffs. Yet each likely sees the other side has having more power. I could go into details, but suffice it to say, most people are convinced that the "other side" has it better so I'm not even sure it's worth arguing. I suspect the crux of the issue is how the dating world defines choice and rejection; and choice and rejection are often traded-off for one another.
It is my opinion that booze is what creates the real power shift. All that stuff I said about respect and civility tends to go out the door when some folks imbibe. The whole point of liquor here is to ease social barriers, but unfortunately it doesn't discriminate for some folks when bringing down barriers that were never meant to be taken down. And from a woman's viewpoint that is a disadvantage and net loss of power as folks have mentioned here in terms of dealing with negative behavior and safety.
You can't get a PBR in my town for $3, much less a rum and coke. ;_____;
sometimes refusing the drink isn't so easy. I've had numerous occasions where a guy across the bar asked the bartender to bring me another one of what I was having and it's place in front of me. Before I have time to refuse he's by my side wanting a pat on the head for being such a gentleman.
At this point, I do the rude thing and say "no thanks, I can pay for my own drink", ask to have it put on my tab, and then get away as fast as I can. However, it's an awkward situation and I don't blame people who still take the drink, but don't want to talk to the guy.
Yeah, that's a bit of a different situation. I find that presumptuous. I had a guy do that once and I refused to take or pay for the drink and left him to argue with the bartender about paying for it since he didn't want to drink it.
I don't think that's rude . . . I think you're overly kind to put it on your tab. You have every right to turn down the drink (and not pay for it). That's completely different from taking it and then kvetching about having been given it.
Someone who just plunks a drink down in front of you deserves what he gets. That's pretty presumptuous. In that particular case I think "Thanks for the drink, now shove off," is appropriate, as is sending it back and letting him deal with the bartender.
In the case of a polite inquiry beforehand, a polite demurral strikes me as more appropriate. Or, for that matter, a bold "I don't want to deal with you. Still want to buy me one?" which, while not exactly polite, is at least honest, and allows both of you the ability to respond how you see fit.
That's what's nice about France - you can take the drink and tell them to fuck off. It's totally part of the culture, very NSA. I love it, even if I don't use it.
I appreciate all the comments. It gives me a different perspective.
When I wrote this I was a bit testy.. I didn't include that these men in the bar were asking for my number, and my friend's number, after buying us drinks. One was trying to get my friend to leave with him. We refused all these things, and their solution was to buy us more drinks!
We eventually declined after we found out they only seemed to be buying us drinks to get us drunk.. not to "introduce themselves."
Maybe if we get 'em drunk, they will leave with us, and there could be possible penetration! This is what really sickened me.
Also, they didn't seem to care which one of us it was.. whoever was easier to get drunk and take home, they would take..
That does sound worse-- that's why you should include the details of why you're pissed off. Your original post sounds like someone offered to buy you a drink, you accepted, and then were angry that he tried to talk to you.
Wow, that's gross. I can understand why you are so upset. One time, a guy was sitting next to me (I was on my third long Island) and although he hadn't been drinking all evening, he suddenly orders a drink and tries to feel me up. Fucker was trying to "catch up." Yeah. Think about that. So, I hear you, and I am glad that you and your friend had eachother and were able to get out of there safely.
I have to admit that puts a different spin on it. That does sound pretty obnoxious on their part. They should have taken no for an answer.
Still, I'm not getting that accepting someone's offer of a drink should carry a default interpretation of "Thanks, now shove off."
As far as not allowing yourself to be gotten drunk, "No thanks," works wonders, whether or not it is followed by "now shove off." If you are at least willing to chat, try leaving the last one unfinished. It gives you a perfectly plausible reason for turning down another sitting right there on the table. Nobody is forcing you to drink to excess, I hope? If you are still drinking, why are you angry that he's still buying?
I love that we can discuss situations and interpretations in this forum. But I don't like how hostile some people get. Please remember that there is a real person that you are criticizing, and that person has feelings.
Thank you for leaving such a super sweet comment.
People do get pretty harsh! But I did post it, so I have to be open to their opinions and arguments. Can't take everything so personally or I would go nuts!
After (too) much time spent at bars and clubs, I believe that drink buying does instigate a social contract, but men do have to remember that it's not inanimate objects on the other end, but other people. They have to learn to be OK with women saying "thanks for the drink, I'm going to resume my business now, bye".
A drink buys a chance at conversation, a kiss, sex, whatever. A chance. Nothing more, nothing less. If the guy can't back out gracefully, it's his problem.
Well said. The post didn't say anything about them not backing out gracefully.
And so you will now, of course, ignore what the author of the post has said about how the men were doing their damndest not to let the women back out gracefully. To quote Bill Cosby "Who told you that you got to be the walking-around Jell-O Sheriff of the house?"
"My vagina is worth $6.50
It is not yet Friday, but I have a big Friday feminist fuck you to the men at my favorite bar last night.
We're just two girls at the bar and we feel like gazelles at the watering hole.
You want to buy me a drink? Fine. You want to buy my friend a drink? Fine. Does this mean that we are REQUIRED to talk to you? At all? I thanked you, now go away.
Thank you for the 3 dollar drink, I'm so glad I didn't have to break my bank for that extra rum and coke. Thank you. As a professional woman, I know I can't afford the 3 dollar drink, after I've already had six of them. That extra 3 bucks would really kill me. And why have you been making googly eyes at both of us all night, but only wait until we are already intoxicated to decide to buy us drinks? Fuck you.
After six dollars and fifty cents, we are supposed to fuck you?
I don't think so.
Posted by ravenlox_82 - March 04, 2009, at 02:33PM"
Here is what she said later in the thread, which you continue to obstinately ignore, since you seem to think posting something I already read is some form of argument:
I appreciate all the comments. It gives me a different perspective.
When I wrote this I was a bit testy.. I didn't include that these men in the bar were asking for my number, and my friend's number, after buying us drinks. One was trying to get my friend to leave with him. We refused all these things, and their solution was to buy us more drinks!
We eventually declined after we found out they only seemed to be buying us drinks to get us drunk.. not to "introduce themselves."
Maybe if we get 'em drunk, they will leave with us, and there could be possible penetration! This is what really sickened me.
Also, they didn't seem to care which one of us it was.. whoever was easier to get drunk and take home, they would take..
Yes, and as many people have pointed out that story doesn't have much in common with the original post, which is what I was addressing. It would be pretty hard to deal simultaneously with both the subject of this thread as laid out by the author, and her clarifications, as they have almost no bearing on each other.
The thing with posts like this is that people aren't only responding to one specific person. They are responding to the original post about the situation and the issues it raises. The poster can come back later and add or change things, and people can also respond to that, but it doesn't mean they can't still address the original point raised and the people who agreed or disagreed with it.
Its sort of like how JK Rowling can do an interview saying Dumbledore was gay, but if it isn't in the books plenty of people will say it doesn't count.
I'm glad to hear that the original poster had more reason to get angry than originally stated. However, there were people who commented that they loved her rant before those clarifications were posted, so the original rant and how the situation appears to be described there are still worth discussing.
(Especially when posts are nested like this so that someone might be replying to one thread and not even see the poster's other comments at that time.)
No offense, but I think it is a little disrespectful to treat someone's upsetting experience as a post/essay/intellectual exercise. Particularly because she has clarified the situation.
And if you really want to defend aleks, you might want to start with the prostitution/Adam Smith comments, because those are pretty far out of line.
I'm not defending aleks, I don't even know him/her. Some of his/her comments are random, like the Adam Smith one, but some do make sense. I"m defending people's right, in general, to continue a discussion that has gotten started. Once a conversation has been raised you can't just shut it down completely by coming back and changing the spin of what you wrote. It can add to the conversation, sure, but it doesn't stop people from continuing to discuss and defend the things they wrote before that.
This isn't a personal livejournal. It isn't focused on the original poster's life and feelings. Its focused on discussion about feminism, and once you raise a discussion it has a mind of its own. What if she had come back and said "actually that didn't happen, I made it all up." Would you expect everyone to stop commenting?
If you like, look at it this way: If I post something else right now arguing that its ok for a man to politely offer to buy a drink and then want to talk to you, I'm not really directing it at the original poster, since she has already clarified that that's not what happened. I"m directing it at the people who commented at the beginning that she was right on with her rant and gave a general sense of all men are pigs. Or, I'm directing it at people who might think that who could be reading this and not commenting. This isn't only about the original poster, its a discussion board about ideas.
Not to mention the practical issues of nested comments, as mentioned above, and the fact that many people pay more attention the substance of the comments than who wrote them, and so might not even realize right away that the original poster has added something. On the main site comments by the original poster are always highlighted in a different color and I thought they used to be here, but they don't seem to be anymore, so that makes them very easy to miss.
"No offense, but I think it is a little disrespectful to treat someone's upsetting experience as a post/essay/intellectual exercise."
Also, wait, what? Its offensive to treat it as a post? It IS a post. I don't get that part.
But I think that if someone is offended at their post being read and discussed for the ideas in it, they shouldn't be posting on a site like this, they should be posting on a personal blog for people who know them (or follow their blog enough to know them), and where they are in charge of moderating comments.
Perhaps you missed the title and content of the original post, or perhaps I missed you complaining about how "far out of line" the original poster is.
I agree with everything you say here, though with regards to backing out gracefully I would like to add: If you have no intention of giving him even the time of day, it is polite to decline an offer of a drink at the outset. To take his drink and immediately skate is using him for drinks, which, while nowhere near as bad as being used for sex, is still being used.
This is not the same thing as hanging out for the duration of a drink (or two, or more) before deciding you don't want to pursue any further time together. That's perfectly fair. Presumably the social interaction is its own reward -- in the best case, a mutual one -- not just payment for services. If you honestly feel that's not the case going into the interaction, well, see paragraph 1.
I totally agree with you that if one doesn't want to talk to the dude, one should decline the offer.
The OP didn't state it in these words (though others have alluded to it), but what happens oftentimes in situations like this is that the transaction does not begin with "hi I'm ---, may I buy you a drink?" It begins with a drink set materializing in front of you, unasked. That kind of behavior sets up a very financial transaction. It's incredibly aggressive and supposes that the for sale by default -- especially when they presume to know what you like to drink!
Electra,
Don't you think there's something fundamentally fucked up about 'selling' social access to yourself in the first place?
It's totally part of the rape culture calculus [1 drink = a conversation; 2 drinks = a kiss; 3 drinks = a make out session in one of the booths; 4 drinks = continuation of aforementioned make out session + breast fondling; 5 drinks = ....]
So why even buy into that in the first place?
How about having a conversation with a guy for free? Or declining to have a conversation, for free? In other words, why not demonetize the situation entirely?
where do you get this stuff? do you think so little of women that a few drinks from men equals access to their bodies?
I think I know what the original poster is trying to say, and I bet she lives in a big city. I lived in Washington, DC for a while, and I found that men had a way of "showing interest" that was aggressive, rude, and imposing. For example, sometimes I like to eat lunch or dinner in a restaurant by myself. There were so many instances where I'd be trying to enjoy my food and read a book, and some guy would take it as an open invitation to sit down in my booth and start talking to me. Excuse me? Is there any chance that I can enjoy my burger without some asshole inviting himself to join? (The guys were usually creepy lecher types who stared down my shirt.) The same with buying drinks: They'd do it without asking first, especially if I was alone or with one other girl. They know once they do it, you have no choice but to talk to them...unless you want to feel extremely awkward. I think the real problem is that, unless a woman (or women) has a man next to her, these aggressive creeps see it as a license to impose themselves on you. I've seen it too many times.
wait a minute...so what exactly happened?
A man asked to buy you and your friend a drink, you both accepted, and then he made googly eyes at you?
And now you're spouting off "fuck you" and talking about your vagina?
Did I miss something because this is the type of behavior that gives feminists a bad name.
If you don't want to get a little bit more friendly aqcuainted with a lad (and I'm talking a conversation, not intercourse) then refuse the drink.
If you know you're the type that is going to get all pissed and feeling like you're being treated like a $7 whore when the man doesn't immediately scurry off after buying you a drink, then refuse the drink.
And lastly, it would be nice to not always assume that drink + googly eyes does not necessarily = trying to get into your pants.
Count me in as confused as to what actually happened.
In the OP's original post she made it seem as though this guy offered to buy her and her friend a drink. When she accepted she then got angry because the guy wanted to talk to her. Then in her clarifying posts she makes it seem as though the guy was very aggressive about giving her the drinks and she didn't have a choice in the matter (that I'm just confused about in general. I've read other posts about how guys can be agressive when you refuse their offers of buying drinks, but I've still never had one force a drink on me. I've said "no thanks" and if they continue to be a dick about it I get more and more mean in my reply. They eventually piss off.)
It would help if the OP made another post I think completely clarifying exactly what happened because it sounds like a bunch of people are confused.
After reading all of these posts I'm suprised no one has talked about safety. If someone is bothering you at a bar tell the bartener or bouncer and get them kicked out. That's what the bouncer is there for. You should have fun and be safe. Don't be afraid to stick up for yourself!
Texasfeminist - you make a very good point about telling the bartender or bouncer if you feel unsafe.
Unfortunately...I have tried this in the past and many bouncers/bartenders ascribe to exactly the same type of male-entitlement that the predatory men do.
I have had, "Well...that's just lads, isn't it luv" and "Well...he only patted your bottom". I have even had one bouncer try to then hit on me himself, after I have complained about another predatory man!!!
Bars should be re-educating it's staff on male-entitlement and the feelings women get when they are becoming afraid of a man. It's not as simple as "tell a staff member" because we ALL work from sexist stereotypes of dating - including them.
A bouncer is most likely to intervene when a physical assault is taking place. It is highly unlikley that they will intervene if a woman is just being verbally bothered by a man. And even if they do - they are much more likely to take in the man's excuse if he is not being overtly physically violent towards the woman. That is my experience and the experience of many female friends I have talked to.
The problem is that staff members...just like the rest of society, see nothing overtly WRONG with men being predatory, so they allow it to continue.
I realize I am commenting all over the place, on this post....but I feel it is necessary because
a)no one has ever broached this subject before...and thanks for that again ravenlox 82!!! and b) there is far too much "Well...what really happened" apologism going on!
Most of the bars I frequent the bouncers have been very helpful when I have told them about some of their patrons being "too friendly" or aggressive or whatever. The thing is, the bouncers and owners of the bar want more women in the bar then men, so most of the time they're going to take the women's side over the guys and kick the guys out. Or at least tell the guys to leave the women alone. And if I find a bar where the bouncers are mean or disrespectful to me (by patting my ass or something as you described)...I leave and take my money elsewhere. Why do I want to give my money to an establishment that supports that kind of thing?
Thanks for sharing that experience with the bouncers because I've never had them undermine what I was telling them and hadn't even entertained the idea that that would be a possible reaction. That's really terrible. You still have to speak up and tell though. Nothing good ever comes of being quite and accepting being harassed.
I just can't agree to this.
I sometimes buy men and women drinks if I'm interested in them. It's a good opener, to see if they're interested in you. It's much better than asking directly "You have a lovely body, may I please sit down and ask you about your family and political opinion while trying to deduct whether or not we'd be good in bed together?" He's not trying to buy access to your pussy, he's trying to get access into the conversation without simply injecting himself. Guys buy each other drinks too.
Also, I don't think that using single men for their money to buy cheap drinks is all that feminist. It's just being a jerk. Yes, you are using them for their money, as far as I can understand, and you're using your looks for access to that money. It doesn't matter if the drinks are cheap or not - it's the principle of the matter. These men may not have as much money as you do, and a night on the town can rack up a lot of cash.
Now, if he buys you a round, becomes your fifth apparatus, and will-not-desist, you have an annoyance and he needs to learn drink-buying manners.
Tsunade,
Sorry, I call bullshit.
The reason men buy drinks for women is to buy sexual access to them.
I've rarely seen straight men buy drinks for other men, unless there was a damned good reason - either they were very good friends buying each other rounds, or it was the birthday or some other special occasion for one of the guys.
Other than that, it's every man for himself.
So, yes, if a man is buying a woman drinks (ESPECIALLY if he's trying to "get her drunk" - that is, buying her an excessive amount of alcohol in a short period of time) then he indeed is trying to buy sex from her.
Which is precisely why she should say NO and turn down the drinks - even if it means having to be rude!
Actually, the world would be a much better place if women felt entitled to "be rude" to sexist men, instead of always having to " be polite" and "not hurt anybody's feelings".
A lot of men NEED to have their feelings hurt, quite frankly!
And if it takes women "being rude" to abolish the sexist custom of men buying random women drinks for sexual purposes, then bring on the rudeness!
"He's not trying to buy access to your pussy, he's trying to get access into the conversation without simply injecting himself. Guys buy each other drinks too."
Tsunade - erm...I hope you read most of the comments here because generally - most men in bars ARE trying to buy access to your pussy. that's how many of them see women.
Yes - I buy guys drinks too...but if they politely decline - I leave them to it!! MANY men just do not! they think you owe them! As I have said - many times here - many of them have become physically cohersive when I have refused....and when I asked for help from a bouncer, I have been told "Well, it's only because he likes you!" AGGH!!!
Buying someone a drink does not equal buying someone's time.
I never had a problem taking a drink and ignoring the guy who bought it, but then again, after several years experience I have no problem being a bitch. Some guy grabbed my crotch on New Year's Eve (I wasn't there to drink, but to work) and I threw him on the ground by his neck, bitched out his friend, and then pointed them out to all the girls waiting in line as douchebags.
Last time I went out with my sister and some friends - "girls night" style - some guy offered to buy me a drink - I explained I was there with my sister - he acted like it was fine. But then at the end of the night he tried to pull me out of the car and get me to go to another bar with him - he even went to far as to steal an ID from me and wave it tauntingly.
Hrm. On second thought, bar guys are often asswipes. There's no hope! I don't even go out unless I'm working anymore...
Those two examples are horrifying, and I hope the guy in the first story felt it for a long time. I am impressed. I don't go to bars often, certainly never to meet people, but the last time I did some guy grabbed my hip and I bent his fingers back until they snapped. It was my first violent act since 5th grade, I hope it's my last ever, and I'm not sorry at all.
None of those three examples, however, has much in common with a guy buying a drink hoping to start a conversation. I don't do it (I'm cheap, shy, and only go to bars on friends' occasions), but it's a pretty common way for people to meet. The fact that some guys are real assholes doesn't mean that every guy buying a drink should be treated like one.
I'm not understanding this:
If the OP is so proud of being able to afford her own drinks, then why accept free drinks from a guy she doesn't like?
My question exactly qwerty!
If she can buy her own drinks, why doesn't she?
After all, there are a LOT of sexist assumptions attached to men buying women drinks...it is a form of men purchasing social access in the bar (and possible sexual access later in the evening) so why does she even open herself up to that?
Better to just say - 'no thanks!' - and buy her own liquor!
One does not have to sleep with, or even touch, someone who has paid for your meal. All those obligations are hereby rendered null and void, and any man who doesn't think so needs a quick jab in the kidney. ~Cynthia Heimel, Sex Tips for Girls, 1983
that's all I have to say about that