From CNN. This story, about a woman in Saudi Arabia sentenced to lashing and deportation for "mingling" with men, is why I struggle with Islam. It's not as if I single it out, because Fundamentalist Christianity doesn't treat women a whole lot better-but when you have an ideology-fueled and controlled government instituting a draconian version of religious law that results in death and deportation for one segment of the population on a regular basis-that's why I struggle. I don't know enough about Islam to pass any judgment beyond this, and believe me, this doesn't make me fall into the "Muslims are TERRORISTS" camp, but man, does this royally piss me off and sadden me.
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I will amend this post to add that MANY people in Saudi Arabia don't like this-it's a group of top down, power hungry theocrats and the rich chauvinist pigs who own that country that are causing this.
There's several interpretations of Islam, including from a feminist perspective.
We often make the mistake of assuming that the patriarchy has the last word on what religion means. Meaning is always contested, on an individual and on a societal level. We should not allow a religion to mean whatever the patriarchy wants it to mean. Rather we should seek out and give credence to the less powerful the religious community.
if the royalty of saudi arabia pisses you off, obviously the problem lies with the royalty's interpretation of Islam and not Islam itself. most muslim countries don't lash women for mingling with men.
you can't have a problem with christianity just because of the brazilian roman catholic church.
I'm not even talking about the Brazilian Church's stance on abortion (which is the Catholic Church, not "Christianity"...one part of a whole, as it were). I'm sorry if I was unclear; I was merely trying to state that I'm not singling Islam out for the "crappy misogynistic tenets/interpretations" prize. And this problem with Islam runs far deeper than Saudi Arabia: they're just one of the more prominent and richest offending countries, which is why the US loves them oh so much. They have so much invested in our economy it's not even funny anymore, if it ever was.
I see these kids of laws in Africa, in Europe, in Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Palestine...Honor killings up in Europe since an influx of Muslim immigrants, the craziness that is the Taliban regime. Christian assholes in this country complaining that gays getting married means people will want to marry robots, Mormons spending huge amounts of money to destroy marriages, Fundamentalists hating on Obama for being black and hating women for daring to refuse to submit to their husbands. I'm not saying every single Muslim believes the outcome of the woman's punishment was correct, but yes, I really find myself struggling to accept these religions and how they treat the world and the most vulnerable in the population. I just thought this news was incredibly sad and incredibly infuriating.
I find that religion is often, sadly, used as a scapegoat for bad people. It's not the religion itself that is making people behave this way; if there were no religion then the abusive and power-hungry would simply find another poor excuse to carry out their tyrannical regimes. It is easy for them to blame it all on religion because if anyone accuses them of being wrong or hateful, they can simply claim freedom of religion and get away with most of it. It's upsetting that true believers have to be labelled in the same category as hateful people, but it's not the fault of religion that it is being used as a pathetic excuse to do terrible things.
I think its the opposite; without a religion to point to, misogynistic men would simply have to own up to their bullshit. I think religion is a cover that maintains misogyny and allows its users to deny that its wrong or misogynistic by claiming that its religious and therefore, right.
I see your point, but are you saying that people in general would be more responsible without religion? I'm pretty doubtful of that.
I think in the absense of religion you have to educate people along the lines of secular humanism. I don't think its hard to raise kids to be moral without invoking the fear of god, but you can' tjust take away religion from adults without replacing it with something else.
In the long run, I actually do think humanity would be better off without religion.
Hm. I have my own issues with organised religion but I don't feel like society would suddenly be better without it. The idea of religion is created by people, so it's not really possible to have a hypothetical world where it doesn't exist as people will always have beliefs no matter what.
That's why I mentioned that you need to replace it with something, like secular humanism for example. To clarify, I think the world would be a better place if religion died out and instead we educated our children on science and philosophy and ethics and history, taught them to think critically and care about the implications of their actions.
I think we'd probably end up with roughly the same percentage of people who don't mind hurting others, but we wouldn't have genuinely nice people feeling like they are obligated to hurt others (e.g.: people following their church's instructions about voting for prop 8 even if they don't feel strongly that gay marriage is wrong).
Oh, I believe in secularly educating children to form their own opinions but I just can't support the eradication of religion. I still maintain that even normally good people who do bad things in the name of religion are weak and desperate to be told what to do and think, and they won't suddenly become compassionate critical thinkers if religion doesn't exist.
Turkey does not have the death penalty, does not subscribe to sharia, and does not sanction honor killings, stoning or lashing of women.
Does abuse happen, yes! It happens in many countries, especially where fundies try to impose their beliefs. Turkey is struggling desperately to fend off fundamentalism and maintain a secular government.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey#Culture
As for women's rights,"n the 1930s, Turkey became one of the first countries in the world to give full political rights to women, including the right to elect (in 1930) and to be elected (in 1934), to every political office.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Turkey
that honor killing happen in the rural and more patriarchal areas does not mean Turkey as a secular nation of sunni muslims condones or supports it.
I agree with you: Turkey has made strides that many other countries have not, and I know that the State doesn't sanction this, but fundamentalism in rural areas is a huge problem, and honor killings, even a small amount, are simply not acceptable to me.
They are not acceptable to Turks either.I just felt it important to point out that unlike some other muslim countries, Turkey is not a faith based government and doesn't sanction or support fundamentalist ideology.
The Brazilian roman catholic church is an extension of the pope and the catholic religion. So yeah, you can have a problem with it. Bad example.
Saudi Arabia is just North Korea with oil. :(
This is not Shari'a, even. The woman obeyed the law perfectly, since the man she breastfed is, under the law, a mahram, and thus able to supervise her with his friend. They simply want an excuse to punish her. I wonder what her real crime is? Reading? Encouraging her daughter to go to school overseas? This is just an excuse, since their own religious law states that her actions were acceptable.
I had the same thought -- they're punishing her for something else, and this is the excuse they found for it.
In "Gender Roles: A Sociological Perspective," there is a chapter on global perspectives of gender. I thought you'd find this interesting:
"Given the stereotypes surrounding Islam, it is surprising for many to discover that Islam first developed as both a new religion and as a movement toward social reform and legal change specifically aimed at challenging and ultimately changing the lowly status of women."
The text then elaborates by saying that although it originated that way, the Qu'ran has been used to restrict women, especially in fundamentalist Muslim beliefs. It also points out that location plays a big part in how Islam is interpreted; as different countries lay in different parts of the religious continuum.
You totally have a right to be angry. And although I understand why you might say, "Christian men don't treat women much better," I think that statement is a little off. Although fundamentalism, in my view, in all religions is extreme and often patriarchal, this wouldn't happen in present day America (But it did in the past... like the Salem Witch Trials, etc...).
I wish we knew how to stop this. As empowered feminists, it is wonderful that we have Feministing as a platform to voice our opinions, but I wish we could go over there and stop it ourselves, or plant feminist seeds in the women over there so they could lead a religious and social reform.
There are women in Saudi Arabia who are trying to change things. I'd say a good first step would be to look up what they're doing and try to support them. They've certainly got a better idea of what they need and what the best ways of working there are than people outside the country do.
Ruchama, You're definitely right, and I'm sorry if it seemed like I was saying the women in Saudi Arabia weren't doing anything to fight back. Thanks for the advice.
I'm not saying that Christianity or Islam are to be compared. But the fundamental attitude behind religious ideology, if not the more reasonable religious people scares the shit out of me. This is the problem with religious law being the law of the land, no matter what religion it is.
All religion is fucked and totally fucking useless imho. it doesn't matter if you're a buddhist, a christian, a jew, a muslim, a sikh, a hindu. they are all FUCKED.
Thanks for engaging in thoughtful, informed debate. It really brings up the level of maturity here.
Does anyone know about the practicalities involved here-- like are they ACTUALLY going to whip this 75 year old woman? If she's in average health for that age she probably won't survive the lashes. I know that sometimes what people are publically sentenced to doesn't end up actually happening due to appeals or whatever, is that the case here?
You are talking about a patriarchal country that uses religion as a tool to keep women in place. I think it is a slippery slope to negate a whole (not talking to you specifically but in general) faith by the actions of fundamentalists and countries rooted in patriarchal system. It alienates the moderates whose voices are drowned out by the extremists and whose quiet faith is demonized by the very people who could be part of the solution in helping them.
It is pretty pathetic and laughable that the ultra religious would fear a woman of 75 might get up to a little mischief or inspire some by luring young men to her dwelling under the guise of needing bread. err, maybe they were trying to be kind and helping an old lady, or just delivery men. sheesh!!!!!