I'm in college, and have a fantastic relationship with my boyfriend. He's incredibly caring, just as silly as I am, thoughtful, and extremely intelligent, AND we have an amazing sex life. I haven't gotten him to self-identify as a feminist (typical f-word fear), but he might as well for how he treats me and others. Except for this one issue that has come up recently.. porn. We've talked about it a few times at length, but I still don't feel comfortable with it. Here's the story..
MAYBE I'm a bit nosy.. I admit this. However, let's ignore this for the moment and get to the facts. I was snooping on my bf's computer a while ago and found his porn stash. (It didn't take much - Macs are lovely things.. "recently viewed pictures") There was normal misogynistic porn, but also a large number of obviously pornographically perused pictures taken from facebook.. of people I know. None of our good friends, but acquaintances. These pictures seemed to be preferred over the typical porn. I have two reactions to this:
1 - Immediate reaction = fury and disgust and worthlessness. I'm officially ok with porn, but it makes me uncomfortable. It makes me feel less desirable, like he's "settling" for me. The facebook stuff, however, I consider a gross infringement of personal privacy. These people did not consent to having their bodies appropriated in this way - professional porn actors do. I definitely object to that use of facebook (and apparently it's way widespread).
2 - Very much the lesser reaction = maybe it's good that he prefers semi-normal standards of beauty to pornography standards? These girls are not typical porn fare - they look basically like me, and I'm no porn star. BUT I still don't like running into them at school and thinking.. oh my bf masturbates to you. EWW.
Call me prude, call me overly sensitive, but please, please, give me some advice. Is pornography ok in moderation? We've talked about this, and he did agree with me and promise to stop looking at facebook as porn (we'll see how that one goes..), but he couldn't really explain to me how it wasn't misogynistic. He just went back to the "it's a guy thing" argument (ARRGHH). He definitely cares about my feelings, and tried to comfort me in every possible way, but I still can't make myself feel comfortable with porn. I really want to - logically, I understand having a high sex drive - I masturbate all the time (no porn). Emotionally, I feel completely unsexy, undesirable, and sidelined when I imagine him looking at porn.. any porn. I want to be a good feminist! I want to be fair! But I can't get those images out of my head. :-/
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Wait, can you clarify the facebook thing? Are friends of yours posting pornographic photos of themselves on facebook? I'm pretty sure that's against facebook's rules... but if they do post them knowing their friends will see them, how are they not consenting to having their friends see these photos?
Yeah i was confused by this too..
Porn in moderation (i.e. when it's not taking over one's life) is definitely fine.
The two things I have problems with are the pictures from Facebook and the fact that you snooped. Nice try, attempting getting us to ignore it, but it seems like both you and your boyfriend don't really respect other people's boundaries.
But definitely make it clear that it's not only rude to use people's personal photos as masturbation material, but it's violating. At least people who are willingly in porns are expecting people to masturbate to them. Your friends on Facebook, even if they're wearing low shirts or short skirts or whatever, they don't deserve to be treated with such disregard.
And don't feel threatened by porn. He clearly likes you.
I have a major major issue with the implication that's it not ok to masturbate to someone who hasn't consented to it or use their pictures for this purpose. It goes against sexuality completely. If we could only masturbate to people who gave us permission - single people would NEVER be able to masturbate (or only could against porn). I mean think about.
I actually do enjoy porn occasionally, but generally in my past (especially when single, but even now), I was much more into thinking about people I knew. Often people I would never get with, or some I would. But co-workers, acquitences, even friends who I found attractive. It's so much hotter to me. And I know that, or thought at least, that everyone did this.
But what's the difference between just thinking about someone you find attractive and looking at a picture of them? I don't see the difference. Yet clearly it's ok to think about people we are attracted to, and thus by extension looking at a picture of them should be equally acceptable.
I think that facebook is used ALOT by people for this sort of thing. I've even known guys who have basically said it's the only reason they have a facebook account - to get access to the pictures of women they like for masturbation purposes. It sounds sick at first - but then I think about how I do exactly the same thing, just without facebook. Though I have used pictures (not from facebook but from my own camera) for this before.
I dunno... I don't see how we can start to say that someone's thoughts are somehow violating others. Because I know that I will never be able to not think about people I am attracted to. And I could obviously never ask their permission to think about them in this way. Nor can I control it. So to me this is a very dangerous argument some are making here.
But having said all that, I do want to agree with others that him thinking about people you know is much more upsetting then porn. Because you know these people and presumably interact with them. But I guess even without facebook everyone does think about others anyways. Still it's disturbing to actually see it. Some things are better kept private I think.
It would creep me out if I found out someone I knew (but wasn't dating) was using PICTURES of me to masturbate to. I wasn't saying that no one should masturbate to the thought of anyone else, only that using pictures takes it a step further than comfortable.
I often fantasize about people I know when masterbating, but I've never used pictures. It seems like that might be crossing some kind of line.
I would not be comfortable with someone using snapshots of me as porn. If I had put provacative pictures of myself on the web I'd have every expectation of them filling this role. I've taken sexy shots of myself with my SO and given him pictures of myself in various states of undress, and I expect them to turn him on (that was the purpose), but these are with my permission. The thought of somebody masturbating to a pic of me fully clothed at a football game (like many available to my friends on facebook) skeeves me out.
This. The whole idea that people can control how people look at their pictures doesn't make much sense to me.
I don't think I'd want to know if someone masturbated to a picture of me, and I think finding out would make me feel weird.
But I don't think that I've somehow been violated or demeaned by what other people think of me... especially since they may just think, if they're doing that, that I'm sexy.
I guess my whole thing is... you can't control how someone reacts to you, or the thought of you, or the image of you. That's theirs, and they own it, and not your problem unless they make it your business.
Well, since you asked, I am a woman who enjoys porn to enhance my sex life with my spouse or to enhance a masturbation experience. Pardon me if that’s TMI, but if we are really going to be open about how we feel about porn I think it’s okay to discuss the context in which we do or do not enjoy it or approve of it. Besides, it’s the internet and you don’t know me. That said, I have standards about what is or isn’t okay in my world. Porn that has non-abusive sexual activity in which no one appears to be forced or coerced into doing something they don’t want to do is generally okay with me. I notice in a lot of porn I see that there is a good amount of emphasis on men doing things (or at least trying to) to please women. I appreciate that unlike soft porn found on Cinemax or even the Playboy channel, male and female nudity is equal. I dislike supposedly ‘sexy’ movies where women are fully exposed and men are covered up in the front or just showing their asses. That, to me, is sexist in itself. I personally do not want porn to be a part of every sexual experience I have because I want it to maintain its freshness in its ability to be provocative. I don’t want to get desensitized to it. I dislike porn that hints at screwing underage girls or anything that indicates the degradation of women. I do not view watching consensual sex acts between two people to be inherently degrading towards us simply because a man enjoys looking at it and more likely enjoys looking at the women in it. As far as the self-esteem or body image issue, I am fortunate that I am very happy with my looks and figure and pretty much feel like I could hold my own against most of the women I see. That is not an attempt at arrogance, just my perspective based on how I feel about myself. I also do not believe that men in general are as critical of women’s detailed little flaws the way we are about ourselves and each other. I look at it this way: my husband is also really good looking but that doesn’t mean I don’t enjoy fantasizing about other hot people that I don’t get to sleep with. It’s natural, imo, to have fantasies about what you can’t or don’t have and they do not mean you are dissatisfied with your partner or that you will be unfaithful to them. It doesn’t mean I wish my spouse looked like someone else and I believe he shares my perspective. As a courtesy, I do not care to know who else he fantasizes about, especially if it is someone we know. Some things are just fine kept to yourself. I ask myself: how will sharing these thoughts improve my relationship? If I can’t see anything coming of it other than someone becoming uncomfortable or insecure, I don’t do it. My marriage will not be improved if I learn that my husband beats off thinking about Sally down the street, so I never ask who he thinks about. As far as your friend’s pics on the internet: if they posed for those pics and posted them then they are sort of agreeing for people to view them in any context they wish. You don’t get to pick and choose what people think about when they look at you. I would not like my spouse or boyfriend downloading sexy pics of my friends or people we both know. I don’t need that put in my head every time I see my friend/s. Just my input, take it for what it’s worth……….I’m sure opinions will vary, but I’m not going to let others tell me how I should feel about things and I hope you do not, either.
"I also do not believe that men in general are as critical of women’s detailed little flaws the way we are about ourselves and each other"
You are right on the money about that, Crumpet!
I've always found that most women think they are ugly - and the prettier they are, the more likely they are to think they are ugly.
Even the prettiest woman can go on for 20 minutes about her "flaws".
This isn't an accident - but the product of a lifetime of indoctrination by fashion designers, magazines and advertising.
Men aren't trained to think like that - not about ourselves, or about our partners.
Most men aren't nearly as hypercritical about women's appearance as women are - and a lot of the so called "flaws" that women see are literally invisible to male eyes!
I think it could be good to take some time away from the boyfriend and just think things over. There is nothing wrong with having a negative reaction to this, it is your right. It does not mean you are a bad feminist, whatever that is. If it's something you truly have a serious problem with then do what you have to do to keep your personal integrity. That is the most important thing. And...maybe next time try to have the porn talk with the boyfriend instead of snooping.
Maybe you guys could watch porn together? If he were watching it with you, he wouldn't be choosing it "over" you. Here's a page that has links to all sorts of feminist porn (entirely consensual, a variety of body types, woman-run, made for women): http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/07/23/feminist-porn-sex-consent-and-getting-off/
As for the Facebook pictures, you have a right to be seriously pissed about that. Jerking off to the idea of a stranger is way different from doing it to someone you know. I mean, think about how he'd react if you went on and on about how hot Johnny Depp is, vs. how hot your boyfriend's friend is.
"I mean, think about how he'd react if you went on and on about how hot Johnny Depp is, vs. how hot your boyfriend's friend is."
That analogy doesn't really make much sense... her bf didn't tell her she found his friends attractive, she went out of her way to invade his privacy and find out for herself.
The analogy is relevant to the distinction between pictures of porn actresses and pictures of girls in your class. Its not addressing every aspect of the situation; specifically its not addressing the OP snooping around, but it is addressing what she found.
But the difference is that he wasn't going on and on about how hot Sally's best friend's girl is. He tried to keep his sexy thoughts to himself, and she went snooping for them and even noted how popular some pictures were for him.
And I think it's important not to lose the snooping aspect here. Because going on and on to your loved one about how hot you think someone is, versus privately masturbating to them is a whole world of difference.
I agree that the facebook thing is weird, if only because I personally would have a problem running into someone whose picture I masturbated to on a campus (and I kind of see the consent issue there...but eh, you put pictures up on the internet, no matter WHAT they are, someone will eventually masturbate to them. I'm serious. They could be pictures of your cats, someone will, because it is what it is.) But why the heck were you on his computer? D you have trust issues with him? I don't know the circumstances, but jeez. That's sort of disrespectful.
I'm confused by this statement: "I'm officially ok with porn, but it makes me uncomfortable."
Are you saying you're ok with your BF viewing porn but uncomfortable using it yourself? Or are you saying you consider porn is ok just for your BF's sake but really aren't comfortable with him using it?
If it's the former, you just need to set some boundaries, as I believe you have. (And seriously: stop snooping. It is not ok.) If it's the latter, you need to have a serious talk with your BF about how it makes you feel while also listening what he feels. Porn is very personal, totally ok in moderation, but does affect relationships positively and negatively nomatter the level of use.
All guys look at porn. If you don't like it, don't snoop and just pretend he doesn't look at it.
The facebook thing could be different though.
"All guys look at porn."
I think sweeping generalizations get us into tight spots. That's why so many gender and racial stereotypes are exist. While it may be true that "most" guys look at porn. If I remember anything from logic, All guys look at porn is a universal quantifier. All it takes is one person not looking at porn to prove it wrong. I don't look at porn and if I remember correctly Robert Jennings doesn't look at porn. He was the author of "Getting Off: Pornography the End of Masculinity." I don't think Noam Chomsky looks at porn either. By saying that everyone looks at porn so its okay, is also a logical fallacy as well called "ad populum."
Plus relationships can't be based on lies. If you just pretend that your partner doesn't look at porn you are lying to yourself, since you aren't okay with it. I think that is bad advice to say that you should just shove it under the rug and act like this problem doesn't exist. Nothing is being solved in this situation because your still bothered by the problem. We can't just act like problems don't exist. People do this as a way to dismiss feminism. I see that every day. Most people like to say your just worried about that too much. Frankly, I think that is insulting and demeaning to say that to someone. Your dismissing their opinions entirely. Hopefully, this makes some sense.
"All guys look at porn."
I think sweeping generalizations get us into tight spots. That's why so many gender and racial stereotypes are exist. While it may be true that "most" guys look at porn. If I remember anything from logic, All guys look at porn is a universal quantifier. All it takes is one person not looking at porn to prove it wrong. I don't look at porn and if I remember correctly Robert Jennings doesn't look at porn. He was the author of "Getting Off: Pornography the End of Masculinity." I don't think Noam Chomsky looks at porn either. By saying that everyone looks at porn so its okay, is also a logical fallacy as well called "ad populum."
Plus relationships can't be based on lies. If you just pretend that your partner doesn't look at porn you are lying to yourself, since you aren't okay with it. I think that is bad advice to say that you should just shove it under the rug and act like this problem doesn't exist. Nothing is being solved in this situation because your still bothered by the problem. We can't just act like problems don't exist. People do this as a way to dismiss feminism. I see that every day. Most people like to say your just worried about that too much. Frankly, I think that is insulting and demeaning to say that to someone. Your dismissing their opinions entirely. Hopefully, this makes some sense.
Not true. Perhaps almost all guys have looked at porn (and I'm sure a lot of women have tried too) but I think fewer make it a regular habit than you'd think.
Honestly, I don't really get porn. I don't seem to get turned on much by watching other people. I don't really have advice for you except be careful when your mind is trying to tell you what's "normal" or what you "should" do. (E.g. Watching porn isn't normal and not watching porn isn't normal either but some people might think one or the other is true). Then try to think of how you can both "win" in the situation. He gives up certain porn things but not all for example. You continue to try to communicate about how you feel and try to understand why each of you wants what you want.
I actually did my thesis on this very issue!
There's a couple things to consider:
(1)it's not adversely affecting anything inside of your relationship
(2)you did snoop on his computer without his knowledge. Whether it's normal for you to use it or not, you're not really in a place to call him out on a violation of trust when you yourself violated his
(3)Just because you know these people tangentially, is it any worse than masturbating to Victoria's Secret or a Sears catalogue? These women put up pictures of themselves he has found arousing -- it's not like he's actually violating these women
(4)I think this brought up a pandora's box of issues you have with pornography because his behavior doesn't seem to be abnormal. Men who like women masturbate to arousing pictures of women; you still have a healthy relationship and sex life; you also imply that there's no other real huge issues in your relationship. I don't see any of these factors as a big huge threat to anything just because he thinks some of your mutual acquaintances are hot.
So what did men do before there were pictures? Actually use their imaginations?
Why do you think you have to feel comfortable with porn? Especially with the kind of misogynistic/destructive pornography your boyfriend seems to prefer. In my view, he is the one who has to do some important work first. I think he has to understand first, and accept, that he likes watching misogynistic material. And further, how by consuming misogynistic material his relationship can be affected/hurt. And this is really difficult for many heterosexual men (I'm one of them) to come to terms with, because they don't feel like they want to give that away. In fact, they're unable to see it, because this is how male privilege works.
Why don't you ask him, how would he feel if you masturbated thinking of some other guy at your school, or even a porn actor? Would he be fine with that? Sometimes men don't even think that women might do that, precisely because they think it's just a "guys' thing"...
Of course, I'm not saying there's not any positive sexual/arousing material out there, which can help people discover and experiment with their sexuality in so, so many really fun ways. It just seems to me that your boyfriend has to accept a few really important things before possibly going forward with other things.
There is a recent documentary on those issues which I've found very good, "Price of Pleasure - Pornography, Sexuality & Relationships." (http://thepriceofpleasure.com/). See what you think.
Oh, and about snooping on his computer: yes, it's bad, and this shows that you're not trusting him enough. But to me it's important here to think why you're not trusting him. It's not only you that is responsible for doing it. In other words, as I see it there are a lot of interrelated relationship issues here.
Just curious about something you said:
"Why don't you ask him, how would he feel if you masturbated thinking of some other guy at your school, or even a porn actor? Would he be fine with that"
What if he responds that he is perfectly ok with it? Does that change anything?
I ask because I think most men wouldn't care at all about masturbating to porn stars or actors. He might about the guy at school though. But still, he might not. Not everyone is threatened by such things.
Yes, not everyone is threatened by those things, but some do, so that's why I offered it as a suggestion. But, really? I still wonder whether men really understand how it is for many women and why it makes them feel uncomfortable, so I'm trying to find ways with which they could see things from their partners' perspective. For example, if she said to him one day "hey honey, how are you, I had a lovely day at home. I had some great time masturbating to that porn video, thinking of this guy with that enormous penis doing it to me for hours. Oh, I just couldn't have enough of him, and now I'm quite exhausted!" (I'm not condoning objectification here, I'm just trying to find ways that the objectification aspect and its possible effects could become visible to men/people who use this sort of misogynistic mainstream porn.)
If he still said that he's still ok with that and not willing to think more about his behaviour, then I believe she has to decide whether she wants this kind of relationship or not. But definitely not try to adapt to his behaviour like it is her fault; or 'work on her self-esteem' as one commenter said, pretending that it's her problem, disregarding factors contributing to it such as, for example, the whole porn culture we live in.
"Why don't you ask him, how would he feel if you masturbated thinking of some other guy at your school, or even a porn actor? Would he be fine with that? Sometimes men don't even think that women might do that, precisely because they think it's just a "guys' thing".."
I'd have absolutely no problem with that.
"It's not only you that is responsible for doing it"
Yay, victim blaming!
Exactly. Too many people are dismissing this girl's feelings for the sake of what? Her boyfriend being able to look at porn? First of all, okay, she snooped, but if your boyfriend is hiding stuff from you? Especially after the "It's a guy thing." Please. That is no excuse.
If she okay with it, I say woohoo for him, but if she's not, then either the porn goes or she leaves. Period. You shouldn't have to be uncomfortable in relationship and force yourself to be okay with something you're not.
Something I would suggest is looking for feminist porn together that you are okay with if you really want to compromise.
It's pretty normal to keep your porn collection from the person you're dating, for the same reason you don't tell your boyfriend you sometimes imagine he's Chase Crawford when you're having sex. When you're out in public, you don't flirt with the waitress or point out the really, really hot guy standing ten feet away. It's polite.
If a person is in a relationship, it doesn't mean that they're going to suddenly stop being attracted to other people, or even that they should try to stop. (And no, I'm not advocating cheating. I just don't think it's healthy to force yourself to only ever think dirty thoughts about one person. Acting on those thoughts is a whole different thing.)
You don't want to make your SO feel like she or he has to compete, or that she or he is second best, so you put the porn out of sight and don't mention it unless you want to incorporate it into your shared sex life.
The fact is, porn is images and just can't compete with a real person. And while anyone who looks at porn knows that, it's sometimes difficult for people who don't look at porn to understand.
That is such crap. I was abused with the use of porn. If my partner watched porn without telling me before sex then I would drop him like a hot potato. I take my consent very, very seriously.
Just out of curiosity: Would you be upset if you found out your partner was thinking about someone else while having sex with you?
Not really. But given I make sure that ny partner's know using porn is a huge no-no when with me I think it's a completely different issue. I'm open with them about how I really feel about it and they have to be open with me about using it. Like I said my consent is not something I take lightly.
I have to say something here and risk getting flamed. All I am hearing from these comments is politically correct BS. If you are not okay with porn then that's okay! But please don't try and kid yourself into believing that it is that way. Do some research and see how you feel about it. I am anti-porn because I don't think decent porn can exist within a patriarchal society. Even so called feminist porn involves misogynistic troped taken from mainstream porn.
Also there can be ways to compromise if you do not want to lose your partner over porn (pictures instead of videos or written instead of visual etc). But take it from someone who has denied her hate for porn in the past don't let other people make your decisions for you. It's not their life, it's yours. I left it way too long and ended up absolutely hating myslef, by body, doubted my ideas just because I let myself believe that the majority could tell me what was and was not acceptable in my relationship. Don't settle for less than you both want and need. Don't sell yourself short if it is not what you believe.
I like porn. I look at porn myself. I KNOW I like porn, and it's not just because I'm being PC.
My point was this: Everyone is turned on by things other than the person they are in a monogamous relationship with. Anyone who says they aren't is lying. Even if you don't masturbate or only masturbate to the thought of your SO, at some point or another you have passed a really attractive person on the street, or watched a really sexy scene in a movie, or read a scene in a book and it turned you on.
And a lot of this stuff you don't mention to your partner. You don't tell your boyfriend that you think about having sex with the really hot barista at Starbucks, or Tahmoh Penikett, or his younger brother. He doesn't tell you that he thinks about having sex with your best friend, or his coworker with the fake tits, or Keira Knightly.
A lot of monogamous couples maintain the fiction, to some extent or another, that they are only sexually aroused by each other, and they only think about having sex with each other. Being discrete about porn usage is just one of the ways they do that.
In this particular case, I'm really curious as to whether the OP is more upset about the porn, or about the masturbation, or about the fact that her boyfriend gets off thinking about people who aren't her.
There is a difference between being discreet and lying. Lying about orn to gain someone's consent is tantamount to rape in my opinion (and situation).
In this situation, he never lied.
If she asked him about porn and he said he never, ever looked at it and then she found his stash, then he's dishonest and she has a real complaint.
She doesn't tell us if they ever had a conversation about it, or if she ever made her views on pornography clear, which makes me think she never did, so he's not even guilty of lying by omission.
Most guys look at porn, and most people -- particularly younger people -- don't mind but don't like it shoved in their face. If someone feels differently that's fine, but they have to make themselves known.
First of all, okay, she snooped, but if your boyfriend is hiding stuff from you?
Please reverse the genders on that sentence and tell me it doesn't make you uncomfortable. Just because someone is in a relationship doesn't mean they sacrifice all rights to privacy. Maybe it's not healthy to hide things, but he's certainly within his rights to do so as long as it's not something that could adversely affect his partner (like additional sexual partners, etc.)
Your boyfriend needs better security on his computer.
YES - for the win!
He definitely needs to password protect his hard drive!
I don't get it. Don't almost all of us fantasize about people we know? Don't you? I don't see that he did anything wrong.
I understand why you would feel jealous having found the materials. I would be upset if my partner told me "hey, guess what, I was fantasizing about your friend today". But your partner didn't do that. You snooped and found pictures on his computer. I might also feel a little insecure for a bit but I don't think he did anything wrong at all. I think your snooping is by far much more out of line.
Enders,
I've heard that some people don't, or try not to, which confuses me tremendously. I remember chatting to some friends once in college and admitting I masturbated to the thought of this guy I really liked, and they were grossed out, thinking it was objectifying.
I just found myself wondering how they masturbated. Did they always have to devise characters anew (or revisit old ones) to behave appropriately? It's always puzzled me.
It also puzzles me that people are bothered BOTH by people masturbating to porn AND by people masturbating to the image or thought of people they know. If they want people to masturbate to images of people who are aware they are thought of that way, it seems porn would be a solution and not a problem.
I just find myself wondering what someone who is turned on visually is supposed to do, if porn is bad and people around are worse.
1. You shouldn't be snooping around on his computer without permission. How would you like it if he did that to you?
2. He looks at porn. That's a nonissue.
3. He apparently masturbates to pictures of people you are both friends with. I'm assuming you concluded this by finding their (non-pornographic?) pictures in between the porn pictures in the recent viewing history, otherwise there's no reason to conclude he was masturbating at the time he looked at them. This does strike me as something worth discussing, but then you have to admit you snooped and apologize for that first, because its really the worse of the two things. Anyway, I don't think its necessarily a big deal, but if you want you can ask him to reassure you that he's not actually planning to conduct an affair with any of these women. You could ask tell him you feel more comfortable having him masturbate about women he'll never meet, which I think is fair. Or maybe he can convince you that its no big deal, he doesn't want to cheat or anything, he just thinks real life women are sexier than fake porn. How close friends are you and he with these other girls? If they're classmates you don't know well, it doesn't seem all that different from fantasizing about a girl in a magazine.
Thought experiments, to get us around some of the visceral pro-/con-pornography debates, especially since there is so much going on in this post:
1) while snooping on your boyfriend's email account, you notice that he has a stash of old letters from ex-girlfriends or an unmentioned penpal from Germany whom he has never met
2) while spending the night at his place, he talks in his sleep and mentions someone else's name
3) you find out that your boyfriend saves (and rereads) all of your IM correspondence and text messages in some masterfile, either deliberately or automatically
-----
Lest I seem glib, here's what the thought experiments might trace:
1) is it more or less fair to demand exclusive control and knowledge of his sexual fantasies than to demand control and knowledge of romantic memories or platonic friendship?
2) is it the deliberateness of his fantasies that bothers you, or simply the fantasies themselves?
(Djuna Barnes writes in Nightwood that we cannot possess lovers in their dreams; we all dream alone, and undeliberately)
3) is the invasion of privacy problematic because it is sexual? systematic? secretive? or because you fear it could lead to problems further down the road?
I'm not sure how its an invasion of privacy to reread AIM conversions unless you said you weren't saving them. Or did you mean conversations she had with other people, not with her boyfriend? Actually that probably is what you meant, that makes more sense.
hindeviola, I found myself in a similar situation as yourself not so long ago (but just porn, not facebook photos). I felt betrayed and hurt - very, very hurt. I was wondering if my boyfriend was getting bored with me and I was sad about the whole relationship in general.
What I did to make myself better about the whole thing was to, first of all, talk with my boyfriend. Why he did try to us the "it's a guy thing" on me, he also let me know that it wasn't because I was failing in any sort of way and causing him to do this. Communication is important to every relationship. Secondly, I did some online 'research' into what porn was out there for women. You will probably find that looking at other guys does not change the way you feel your boyfriend. Looking at porn is not just "a guy thing" it's something many people do.
However, I am still not completely ok with it. But I don't think I'll ever be completely ok with it as long as what is mainstream in porn is still very misogynistic. Hell, I can't even watch music videos like the one by Masterkraft">http://www.10comments.com/archive_0001/0001_pleasure/0001_pleasure.html">Masterkraft where a woman is drenched in a milksake (similuated cum-shot) without getting horribly pissed. And I still feel somewhat disconnected with my boyfriend because he can take pleasure in something that personally offends me so much.
Sometimes I wonder if that is because I can only see certain sexual behaviours from my feminist perspective. Eg. with a cum-shot, I see a woman being degraded for someone else's sexual pleasure (forget letting her have fun) and I don't see anything sexy about that. I don't see people having fun with sex (which is what it could be to the people actually doing it). I almost wonder if I would be the happy 'recipient' if I were ignorant of sexism.
What do you think fellow feministingers? Is ignorance bliss? Or is there another way to be ok with it on a more personal level? Are some of you women out there ok with cum-shots and the like? Is there a way to be ok with your partner looking at and getting off to porn that you personally find offensive (especially if his best response is "it's a guy thing")?
I don't like the idea of cumshots. I also know several guys who say they don't like them, but since almost all porn has them they just watch it for the rest of the action anyway, even if there's a part they're not into.
I guess I'm lucky, I've looked through my boyfriend's porn collection and I'm fine with it. Its mostly not stuff I personally want to masturbate to, but its pretty classy and not offensive. Playboy style rather than Hustler style, I guess.
I love it when guys come on my face. I'm not sure I understand why that's so degrading.
I don't think any sex act is inherently political. Whatever it is, it's part of someone's sexuality.
I love it too... glad you admitted it first though! I don't necessarily think it's degrading, no more then alot of sexual acts at least. As long as your partner is returning the favour somehow...
I don't understand the emphasis on that sex act either. It's not something I enjoy, because I actually am not a big fan of sex's messiness... but I'm not sure why it's seen as the epitome of degradation either. I'm mainly just grossed out because I dislike messes.
I do think that some porn presents it as particularly humiliating, though I have to say that it pretty much just seemed like a conventional thing in porn I've seen, rather than intended to insult.
I mean, the reason it got started is probably no more sinister than "this proves that at least some performers' orgasms are not faked."
I actually really don't mind getting coated with a load of jizz. Male or female. I just like body fluids. And by don't mind. I mean, I actually really enjoy it.
Your boyfriend's porn use has nothing to do with you. It doesn't mean he doesn't love you, or doesn't find you attractive or desirable.
I agree with other posters that you shouldn't have to be uncomfortable in a relationship. If you cannot come to terms with his porn use then that's just the way it is. That said, I'm not a fan of ultimatums. I doubt that he would stop because of an ultimatum. He might promise to stop and try to stop, but he likely would end up hiding it from you instead. Either way, resentment may poison the relationship.
What I'm trying to say is if an ultimatum is needed to be true to yourself then so be it, but don't be surprised by a negative outcome.
Also, viewing porn together likely will not be an adequate substitute for private porn use.
Here is the background for my perspective: I am fortunate to have an SO who is OK with my porn use. This is good, because I wouldn't be able to stop. In the past, we sometimes viewed porn together, but since she told me porn doesn't do anything for her, neither of us has suggested the activity.
My SO understands that I'm still a bit embarrassed about my porn use. (I gave up Catholicism decades ago, but traces of Catholic Guilt still linger.) She respects my privacy.
Although in the past she expressed fascination at the web sites that would appear in the web browser URL autocomplete when using my computer, I have since created a separate account for porn. Not so much because I need to hide this from my SO, but rather to avoid embarrassment in a situation in which I may be showing something to a neighbor or a relative.
(And of course I use "porn use" as a euphemism for "masturbating to porn." I find the latter too ackward for repeated use.)
I know this isn't a popular viewpoint and that hindeviola commited the ultimate sin of snooping (which, surely, no one else among us has perpetrated, ever), but oh well.
As someone who has discovered a porn collection and discovered myself in the porn collections of others, my heart goes out to you. No one wants to feel betrayed (like, really, her in your senior seminar?) and, I think even moreso, no one wants to be treated like a piece of meat, in one end and out the other.
Porn is NOT a 'guy thing'. It's an entitlement thing. Unfortunately, in our society, men are encouraged to feel entitled to women (and other men, esp. of color) as utilities, to use us symbolically and save themselves the exorbitant trouble of interacting with us (and risk getting rejected! oh no!). Moreover, the thinking, feeling objects of this behavior are expected by almost everyone to feel neither outrage nor discomfort. But what's expected and normal is not the same as what's good and right. If you ultimately choose to not have porn be part of your life, you are not bad and messed up or asking for too much. I promise you that there are guys out there who have sufficient balls to recognize and reject misogyny.
Yeah, I think you are very right about the entitlement thing.
I guess I envy heterosexual men and feel like I'm missing out on something. I mean, I really have to go out of my way to see something that pleases me or stimulates me sexually (as a straight women who likes to look at men), while most porn, commercials, music videos, etc. cater to male-heterosexual desires.
Bring on the naked and scantily clad men!
I'm totally with you with the mo' hot men thing (I'm a straight, much-sexed woman, too), although I think that our culture can and should learn to get its rocks off without questioning the humanity of others, even implicitly.
How can you say that no one should be treated as a piece of meat and then say you want more pictures and video of hot men around?
I should have specified institutional like-meat-treating -- because recognizing and appreciating the attractiveness of others does not equal treating them like a utility. It's a difficult nuance in a place like the US, where I live, where porn = sex in public discourse.
Also, please note that I didn't mention (or intend) pictures and videos.
Well, I got that because Tan complained that porn and TV don't have enough hot men, and you said you agreed with her. That's where pictures and video came from.
I guess I'll have to learn to dispense with euphemism on this forum, then, huh :) ?
Porn is NOT a 'guy thing'. It's an entitlement thing. Unfortunately, in our society, men are encouraged to feel entitled to women (and other men, esp. of color) as utilities, to use us symbolically and save themselves the exorbitant trouble of interacting with us (and risk getting rejected! oh no!).
Wait, I look at porn to spare myself the trouble of interacting with women?
Would you care to elaborate a bit more on how porn is a male entitlement thing, because i have no idea what you're talking about.
re: male entitlement
I should have said "entitlement", period.
No matter what one thinks moralistically about prostitution and porn, the sex industry as we know it is wretched and pernicious. Sex workers will tell you that as readily as social scientists. Anyone who chooses to support an institution like that displays profound disinterest in the welfare of his (or her) fellow human beings. In my opinion, if getting one's rocks off in a certain way is worth dismantling the health and happiness of other people, said consumer has a serious case of entitlement, to say the least.
I'm sure the people who make a living from (choosing to) do porn would love for you to shut down their means of livelihood, that would really protect them. Also, what about all the people these days who post their own pictures and videos online for free, for fun? I think its important to make sure that the sites you patronize are free from exploitation, but there are plenty of legit and respectful adult websites out there.
I can't comment about the plethora or dearth of "respectful" adult websites, but what is this about shutting down livelihood? Since when does pushing for systemic overhaul in an inhumane industry mean you don't side with and support the workers?
Electra - I have friends who are sex workers.
They will tell me, in detail, about the problems in their jobs, but I've never heard them demonize the whole industry as "wretched and pernicious".
Beyond that, I think you have a moralistic issue with porn, that you're falsely presenting as a sexism issue.
It's about control of sexuality - and a man who looks at porn is demonstrating his sexual independence from women.
I suspect that a lot of women, feminist and nonfeminist alike, have a problem with that, because they are afraid of losing sexual control of their partners.
It's a really sick and codependent attitude to have about sex, that you can ever really control the inner fantasy life of another person, partner or not.
About halfway through my five year relationship, I accidentally found my boyfriend's porn stash.
But then I snooped on purpose to see what it was about.
I wasn't betrayed by the discovery of porn. I did wonder why, in 2.5 years, he didn't tell me or show me, but then I figured that it was his private thing, for him, and nothing to do with our sex life. And that just because his fantasies appeared to involve certain things, (girl on girl), it didn't mean he wanted to incorporate that into our sex life.
Becoming someone's boyfriend, girlfriend, husband, or wife, or whatever, doesn't mean that their sexuality begins and ends with you.
You've gone barging into his brain, really, with your snooping. And you can't have someone's brain on lockdown.
Fantasies are tricky things and we don't necessarily want to have them come true.
And I think it's very problematic to judge someone or try to control someone's secret (or what should have been secret) sexy thoughts.
And the use of facebook photos? Publishing them in a porno magazine for the world to peruse? Would be a gross violation of personal privacy. Wanking off to photo of someone, not so much. You put a picture up on faccebook and people are mentally allowed to do whatever they want with it, whether that's imagine sexytimes, or imagine you wearing a monocle and doing data entry.
If a partner judged me based on my porn viewing habits, they might conclude that I really like it when dudes come on my face. Whereas if he sprung that on me in real life, I'd be like, "Dude! WTF?"
But if you're uncomfortable with porn use, then I'm not sure what your next step is. But it really seems as if the primary issue is how it makes you feel (unsexy, etc.) and then maybe your next step is to work on your self-esteem.
Seeing as you don't know this person, it's pretty ridiculous to assume she has low self-esteem to begin with. Once again, the condescension of "sex positive" feminists is abundantly clear.
I wasn't being condescending, but your response was. Thanks.
My assumption of low self-esteem comes from this part of the original poster's statements:
--
Immediate reaction = fury and disgust and worthlessness. I'm officially ok with porn, but it makes me uncomfortable. It makes me feel less desirable, like he's "settling" for me.
and:
Emotionally, I feel completely unsexy, undesirable, and sidelined when I imagine him looking at porn.. any porn
---
These statements strike me as something based more on low self esteem than on a feminist objection to porn.
Especially the addition of "any porn" at the end of the second quote.
So even if the porn he was viewing was totally non-misogynistic, female-made, female friendly porn on the planey, it would still impact how she feels about herself.
That his porn use impacts her on such a deep level (worthlessness) and her statements make it seem as if her discomfort comes from not measuring up to the images he's viewing, well - why the hell wouldn't poor self-esteem apply here?
Thank you all so much for your comments. I didn't think posting my problem on the internet would help all that much, but I am amazed and gladdened by all of your suggestions. Not that I have "the answer" now, but by seeing objective responses to a problem I can only see as extremely subjective, I feel like I have a new perspective on the issue. And the large bunch of you who focused on the snooping issue - thanks. I needed that.. it was wayyy wrong, and I've made a personal commitment to stop. long story short, I love you, feministing.com.
Macs do make snooping pretty easy. But its also easy to prevent snooping. If your boyfriend wants to remove the temptation for you to look at his browser history, he should use Private Browsing in Safari, and view photos through there. Or, better yet, he can make a completely separate account with a different password for his private stuff that only he uses, and have a more public account that you and any other friends who come over are welcome to use.
I don't think her boyfriend should have to change his habits because his girlfriend had a lapse in judgement. Extra security and passwords are the opposite of trust. hindeviola made a commitment to stop snooping (a commendable one) and that should be enough.
If the bf is worried about guests accidently finding his stash that is a completely different issue.
No, I agree he shouldn't have to. I just said that IF he wants to remove the temptation, its easy to do, and its also a good idea in the long run because other people might look at his computer sometime. Its a good idea in general to use some level of security on your computer if there are things you don't want the casual user seeing. On a mac, its extremely easy to click on Recent Pictures; it could even be done by accident. I just wanted to make sure people are aware of the easy ways to avoid that kind of thing.
Sorry this is so long, but I'm really glad that someone posted about this because I have a few things that I want to get off my chest.
I recently (accidentally, while he was sitting next to me at the computer) found evidence of my boyfriend's porn use. I guess I should clarify an important point so no one gets angry at me first:
I personally don't like porn for a number of reasons but I realize that it's really none of my business if other people star in it or look at it (as long as no one gets hurt, I guess).
So I'm not trying to be the porn police here. I tried not to think about my boyfriend's possible porn use because frankly, the thought disgusted me and I didn't feel like it was my business. I never asked him about it or went looking for it.
That said, when I did find evidence of it and he admitted to looking at it, I was devastated. I was so ashamed of my own body as it compared to the unrealistic porn actresses' bodies that I didn't even want to shower because it meant that I would have to see my own naked body. The thought of him pretending to fuck other women made me cry, made me feel like I wasn't good enough and that he had to fantasize about others to be able to stay with me.
I know that those thoughts are unreasonable. I know that for most people porn and reality are two very separate things. But I can't get over it. I'm not a bad person. I'm not crazy, I am not sex-negative, and I am not a bad feminist. I am not trying to regulate other people's actions or beliefs. I guess you could call it a personal problem, and it doesn't seem likely to change.
What hurt me the most about my boyfriend's porn use is that he went out of his way to make it seem like he didn't do it. Like I said, I never asked him about it, I even told him that I'd rather not know. He almost always agrees with me when I point out examples of sexism, blatant objectification, and body shaming in the media and often points it out himself. I would have felt less betrayed if he had disagreed with me (or even just kept quiet if that would have embarrassed him) instead of going out of his way to make me think the opposite. That made it feel like a lie instead of just a secret habit.
I didn't ask my boyfriend to stop looking at porn. In fact, I actually told him that he should keep doing it (as long as I didn't have to see it). But when he saw how upset I got and how much of a hit my self-esteem took he told me he would stop looking at it. He said he didn't need it, and I'm sure that if he DID need it like some people seem to do then we would be in a very different situation. He said it was just a habit he started when he was a teen and that he never questioned it. He did say that he knew that it would upset me but he did it anyway, which makes me feel crappy, but whatever.
We even talked about the aspects of porn that concerned feminism and the treatment of women. He admitted that he knew that the women he masturbated to were just objects to him. He told me that he didn’t want to be that kind of person anymore, and I admire that but I know that I don’t have a right to expect it.
I guess I just wanted to say that it is possible to dislike porn when it affects your personal life while at the same time realizing that it's not your place to control how other people act. If other people are fine with their partners watching porn (or with watching it themselves), then that's fine by me. However, nothing says you HAVE to be pro-porn, which is the vibe I'm getting from some of these posts.
"I know that those thoughts are unreasonable." I think most people have some triggers for emotions that they believe to be "unreasonable." This is part of being human. (One of mine is that in social situations I regress 30 years to junior high school, afraid to open my mouth lest I expose myself to vicious ridicule.)
"He almost always agrees with me when I point out examples of sexism, blatant objectification, and body shaming in the media and often points it out himself. I would have felt less betrayed if he had disagreed with me (or even just kept quiet if that would have embarrassed him) instead of going out of his way to make me think the opposite. That made it feel like a lie instead of just a secret habit."
That your boyfriend used porn doesn't mean that his criticism of sexism, etc., in the media was not genuine. He may feel the same way about the women in porn, but knew you weren't interested in hearing about it.
I'll repeat what I said earlier, because I think it bears repeating: Your boyfriend's porn use does/did not have anything to do with you. It doesn't mean that he thinks you're not good enough. If that were the case, he would not stay with you. If you don't believe me, ask him.
One of my statements could use clarification:
He may feel the same way about the portrayal of women in a lot of porn, ...
I acknowledge I didn't read the list of media objections carefully--I had forgotten that "blatant objectification" was included in the list.
I don't consider the sexual objectification of entertainers in and of itself to be more problematic than other forms of objectification. That said I can find plenty of reasons to criticize sexism and unrealistic body images in media, emotional manipulation in advertising, misogyny in mainstream porn, etc., without needing to cite objectification and without hypocrisy. I expect many people will disagree with my views.
"And if he would rather jack off to porn than interact with his girlfriend, ..."
That is a false dichotomy. Men can interact with their girlfriends and occasionally want private time for masturbation. That men are more likely than women to use porn as a masturbatory aid is irrelevant.
Um... if the BF points out sexist portrayals of women in the media and blatant objectification and then is a consumer of porn, he's a hypocrite!
There is no clearer example of blantant objectification of women than mainstream porn.
And if he would rather jack off to porn than interact with his girlfriend, I don't see how the GF could possibly NOT take that personally!
I acknowledge I didn't read the list of media objections carefully--I had forgotten that "blatant objectification" was included in the list.
I don't consider the sexual objectification of entertainers in and of itself to be more problematic than other forms of objectification. That said I can find plenty of reasons to criticize sexism and unrealistic body images in media, emotional manipulation in advertising, misogyny in mainstream porn, etc., without needing to cite objectification and without hypocrisy. I expect many people will disagree with my views.
"And if he would rather jack off to porn than interact with his girlfriend, ..."
That is a false dichotomy. Men can interact with their girlfriends and occasionally want private time for masturbation. That men are more likely than women to use porn as a masturbatory aid is irrelevant.
I'm confused about the second paragraph of your comment (did they take away the "quote original" function for responding to comments? I can't find it). Are you saying you know it's misogynist but watch it anyway? I'm not sure what your point is.
I know my views on porn are contrary to those of a lot of feminists, but I think it's degrading and demeaning and encourages men to treat women like objects.
And I guess I don't see the need for porn. If a person is feeling an urge to masturbate, why would that person need an aid (such as porn) to get turned on? If you're not already turned on, why not wait and have sex with your SO (assuming that person is in a relationship).
I'll probably catch a lot of flak for this, but that's my viewpoint.
Since your post was short, I assumed that the context for my second paragraph would be adequately clear. In retrospect I did not explain myself well.
I was addressing the topic of hypocrisy. Jamie made the comment that she felt her boyfriend's expressed opinion was hypocritical (my word) due to his porn use. I disagreed. After I read your reply, I realized that I had overlooked "blatant objectification" in Jamie's comment. This oversight impacted my point, since porn is certainly objectifying, so I decided to elaborate on my view of objectification, trying to qualify my point as being the scenario Jamie described would not be hypocrisy if objectification were validly excluded from the criteria used for media critique.
"I'll probably catch a lot of flak for this, ..."
I have discussed porn on feminist forums where my views were not welcome. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I like Feministing Community because people here are generally respectful of each other's views. I hope I'm living up to that ideal.
"And I guess I don't see the need for porn. If a person is feeling an urge to masturbate, why would that person need an aid (such as porn) to get turned on? If you're not already turned on, why not wait and have sex with your SO (assuming that person is in a relationship)."
I'm female, so I don't know if it matters, but... I used to think this myself too. I never looked at any visual aids of any kind. Then one evening I was looking at pictures of a singer I liked, which were very atmospheric, and I found them sexy. I thought "You know, I've been wondering why men often look at pictures while masturbating, and I'm already kind of turned on by this... let's see what it does to look at it." So I put on a song I liked and looked at the image on the computer screen.
No, it wasn't sexually explicit and I wasn't watching the guy have sex, but still, I found that it made the fantasy very intense and the whole experience particularly enjoyable. I'm not sure why. I guess it just gave me something in particular to focus my thoughts on?
I think that people really can be visually stimulated -- I found, through this, and my own porn use later, that I'm one of them. I understand feminist criticism of mainstream porn's content and production conditions, but I don't really get why people being visually stimulated is considered so threatening.
ESPECIALLY when people who prefer written erotica are the people saying it. (Not to say you like written erotica, as I don't know.) It's like: okay, I'm this way, you're that way, some people are both. Now can we talk about what might be wrong with how porn is made, or something otherwise useful like that?
One more thing...
"That men are more likely than women to use porn is irrelevant."
How is this irrevelant? Men are more likely to use porn than women because the objects of most porn are women (and most of THAT porn is misogynist, as previously stated!) If there was more porn made for women, I think you'd find the stats changing.
Not that I'm saying turning the tables and objectifying men is the answer, but I just wanted to point out a big reason for the difference in porn consumption between men and women.
In my estimation, the primary reason that men use more porn is that men are generally more visually stimulated than women. I've read anecdotes confirming this. Perhaps someday I'll be proved wrong--I've seen stats indicating internet porn use by women is increasing--but I doubt parity will ever be achieved, even with increased availability of more egalitarian porn.
My points were that masturbation is not a replacement for one's girl/boyfriend, and that porn is just a masturbatory aid. Whether one's choice of masturbatory aid is influenced by gender doesn't affect my points.
"In my estimation, the primary reason that men use more porn is that men are generally more visually stimulated than women. I've read anecdotes confirming this."
Yeah, well, I've seen evidence that points out that the whole "men are more visual than women" thing is a myth. I could search for that evidence now, but that's kind of tangential to the discussion here, so we'll save that for another day...
I just don't get it. How would anyone be fine with their partners watching misogynistic porn, while at the same time not being pro-porn? It seems to me like you equate watching porn to other kind of activities, like watching football, for example (e.g. "I don't really like watching football, but I'm not going to stop my partner from doing it if it's something he/she enjoys doing.").
Well, to me is perfectly clear that if I decide to be fine with my partner to engage in activities which I regard as sexist, it follows that I accept the fact that my partner is a sexist person (and blatantly hypocrite, if he/she criticises sexism and sexual objectification in the media). Otherwise I would be lying to myself.
That's fair enough. I just don't consider all porn to be sexist.
I guess I wasn't clear enough, sorry. I meant that because I know that his porn use shouldn't be related to my self esteem and because I have no control over him, I couldn't tell him to stop watching it. If it wasn't obvious in my comment, I'm actually NOT fine with him watching with what I consider to be misogynistic porn, but I realize that in my case the porn shouldn't be a deal breaker. All I can do is start conversations about how I feel the women are treated in much of mainstream porn and hope that he listens.
I know that he doesn't like me any less because of the porn, but it's a struggle sometimes. I thought my story might illustrate the battle between logic and emotion that seems prevalent in these posts and in my own life. It is a terrible contradiction!
This comment may not have been directed at me, but it seems ambiguous, so I will respond. (Jamie never addressed whether or not she found her boyfriend's porn to be misogynistic.)
"It seems to me like you equate watching porn to other kind of activities, like watching football, ..."
I certainly do! In both cases people are performing for the entertainment of viewers. Both porn and football entail non-negligible personal risk to the performers.
"Well, to me is perfectly clear that if I decide to be fine with my partner to engage in activities which I regard as sexist, it follows that I accept the fact that my partner is a sexist person (and blatantly hypocrite, if he/she criticizes sexism and sexual objectification in the media). Otherwise I would be lying to myself."
That is your prerogative, however not everyone agrees with you that watching porn is necessarily a sexist activity.
If someone criticizes sexism on television, for example, but continues to watch, is that person a hypocrite?
"In both cases people are performing for the entertainment of viewers. Both porn and football entail non-negligible personal risk to the performers."
It seems that you disregard their effect on the viewer apart from 'being entertained.' I believe that (something which is a personal experience as well) that the use of mainstream misogynistic porn from a person while their partner is not OK with it can have more harmful effects in their relationship than applying the same situation to watching football. There has been research on porn and relationships showing its potential harmful effects.
"If someone criticizes sexism on television, for example, but continues to watch, is that person a hypocrite?"
Stuff we watch on television may have some sexism elements, which sometimes one could criticise while keep watching because there are other elements in it that make it interesting/worth watching (for example because it has a good plot, or because it's an informative documentary, etc.). For the case of misogynistic porn I cannot see anything else than overt sexism in there, i.e., I cannot see anything else that would make someone watch it, while still criticisising it for its degradation of women. The only thing that would still make them watch it is because they can get off to it. This means that they get pleasure from watching women getting degraded, hence they support sexism.
"I believe that ... the use of mainstream misogynistic porn from a person while their partner is not OK with it can have more harmful effects in their relationship than applying the same situation to watching football."
I agree with this, however my understanding of your analogy was "I don't really like watching porn with my partner," not "I am not OK with with my partner watching porn."
"There has been research on porn and relationships showing its potential harmful effects."
I don't recall having come across research on this particular issue. References would be appreciated.
My view of porn parallels your view of television. Porn that meets my preference for being minimally sexist and free of misogyny is hard to find. Much porn does not interest me because of the misogyny. Some porn has misogynist elements that I can ignore because I find other redeeming qualities in it.
"I don't recall having come across research on this particular issue. References would be appreciated."
Have a look at this:
https://againstpornography.org/effectsandharms.html
"Some porn has misogynist elements that I can ignore because I find other redeeming qualities in it."
Well, I'd love to hear a bit more about those other redeeming qualities you're talking about.
Perhaps I should have been more clear: I am looking for credible scientific research, not a website with obvious bias that cherrypicks data to fit its agenda.
For example, keri125 wrote in this thread of "a link between violent behavior and viewing violent porn". Previously I had reviewed research supporting this link. This research was convincing. (I'll note here that the same research found no link between violent behavior and viewing nonviolent porn.)
For a counter-example, this paper is interesting, but I need to see more supporting data before I will be convinced that porn has a significant cathartic effect.
The most obvious "redeeming quality" would be the ability to stimulate sexual arousal. Beyond that, redeeming qualities would amount to personal preferences, which would be TMI.
"I am looking for credible scientific research, not a website with obvious bias that cherrypicks data to fit its agenda."
So, if an already published piece of research is mentioned on a 'biased' website, then this research automatically loses its credibility? The website I posted above includes clear citations to scientific research papers, many of which have been published on refereed research journals (this usually ensures pretty high credibility). Anyone interested can find and read the whole papers through libraries, the web, etc. If you click, for example, in "Social and Behavioral Science Research on the Impact of Pornography" and then scroll down you'll find the references for further study. I'm not saying that more research is not needed, but one can definitely not disregard those results.
(Also, thank you for the reference for that other paper, I wasn't aware of it.)
"The most obvious "redeeming quality" would be the ability to stimulate sexual arousal."
So, as I understand it, although you acknowledge the misogynistic elements of a certain pornographic material, you still watch/use it because it turns you on. Is that right?
Just to make it very clear - men are socialized very differently from women in this country. One aspect of this is sex. Men disassociate our fantasy lives from our real world sex lives. And many of the imaginary "flaws" that even pretty women think that they have are often invisible to guys.
So, when your man masturbates to porn IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU - he does NOT think you are "ugly", it has nothing to do with the imaginary "flaws" that a lifetime of fashion magazine propaganda makes you see ("body dysmorphism" if we want to get fancy here) it's just part of his fantasy life.
He pretended to agree with you before about porn because HE REALLY TRULY LOVES YOU AND DOES NOT WANT TO HURT YOUR FEELINGS!
That's the root cause of a lot of male lies to their female partners - you tell a white lie so you don't hurt your beloved partner's feelings.
He knew you hated porn, so he agreed with you because if he argued with you and told you his actual feelings about porn, you'd be angry and hurt, and he didn't want to anger you or hurt you, so he lied.
Now, that you've seen the porn, he knows that your socialization makes you overreact to and overpersonalize his porn use - it has NOTHING to do with you, but it still hurts your feelings and makes you feel ugly to think that he has any sexual thoughts about anybody else but you.
That's a feeling, it's deep rooted and you can't change it, but it is a feeling that has no relationship to his actual real world feelings about you.
Now, I would bet money that he's lying to you now - he knows the revalation of his porn use really hurt your feelings, but, like most other straight American men, he grew up on porn and, unlike you, he was raised to think it's ok and natural to have sexual fantasies.
He'll eventually go back to porn - if he hasn't already.
He'll just do a better job of hiding it from you and lying about it to you.
My advice to you - accept that men in our country are raised to think about sexuality way differently than women are.
Consequently, almost all American men look at porn - and, realistically, if you are straight and date guys, you will be dating a porn user, who's porn use HAS NO RELATIONSHIP WHATSOEVER TO HIS FEELINGS FOR YOU!
Bottom line - just because a man looks at porn does NOT mean he thinks your ugly or doesn't love you!
Look, there is no right or wrong answer in this case. As someone who has been in a similar situation, I believe that you should follow your feelings. If a partner's porn use destroys your self-esteem, that's not OK. Someone who cares about you will not deliberately do things that make you feel like crap.
Take the time to think through these issues. It's OK to feel confused. You have to reach your own conclusion on this, and don't short-change yourself thinking it will make you feel better. I tried to suppress my feelings of worthlessness, and all it did was eat away at me from the inside and come out much worse a year later. Be honest with yourself.
I agree with this completely -- and I use porn.
I'm really shocked by the amount of posters that completely invalidated hindeviola's feelings, as well as huge numbers of other women's feelings by saying that the bf looking at porn was a "non-issue." As a counselor, this is a reoccurring theme in many of the relationships I work with, and can mask multiple problems in the relationship. There are many, many support groups on the internet that show that male porn viewing is not a "non-issue." Plus, many new research papers are coming out showing a link between violent behavior and viewing violent porn, despite what was previously reported. Look at what psychologists are calling "scripting," which discusses how our thoughts, feelings, and attitudes are formed by what we repeatedly view. So whether you are pro-porn or not, her feelings regarding her boyfriends viewing habits are definitely valid and should not be dismissed.
I"m just curious how people would react to a man who said that he found out that his girlfriend had some romance novels hidden under her bed, and felt completely betrayed and hurt and it destroyed his self esteem and confidence in his body, because the men in romance novels are stereotypically hot and have stereotypical long lasting mind-blowing sex skills. And why isn't the thought of him alone enough for her?
I love this question.
Because porn is mostly aimed at men, women get their rocks off to a lot of things that aren't really considered pornography. Men in romance novels always know the right thing to say, they always have perfect bodies and they're always, always really well-endowed. Most men measure up against them about as well as most women measure against thin hairless porn stars with DD-cups.
I wonder if it's a porn issue so much as it is a masturbation issue. Would she feel better if her boyfriend didn't look at porn, but instead imagined other women while jerking off?
As I've said upthread, everyone is attracted to people other than their SO. And frankly, masturbating to the same person gets boring.
This topic has been coming up often enough recently that I wish someone would start a new topic with that question, or comparing the two.
I also think its worth noting that some people masturbate thinking about things they'd never want to do in real life. Sometimes that's part of the thrill.
I would be interested to hear from any men (or women) who feel a sense of loss of well-being from their partners use of romance novels.
I suspect that these cases are pretty rare in comparison with porn. Don't get me wrong. There are plenty of activities that women can partake in that might arouse insecurity in her partner, but I get the sense that her reading romance novels is not up there at the top of the list.
Maybe it's because romance novels don't parallel the expectations that society places on men to the same degree as mainstream porn parallels the expectations placed on women? Just an idea that I have.
For one, there are many more ways a man can be considered attractive in our society compared with women. For example take a romance novel, a music video, a commercial and a mainstream porn video. It's pretty common to see the same archetype of the young, conventionally attractive woman represented in each of these things. Now imagine what type of attractive men might be in these productions. Society seems to be more accepting of broader diversity of character, looks and age for men and this is reflected throughout media. Romance novels might not seem so threatening when you have a bunch of other cultural examples where men can be studs, 'pimps', Don Giovannis or whatever.
I think for many women mainstream porn (in addition to other problems) exceeds a certain threshold of what they are willing to tolerate compared to commercials, novels, etc.
Anecdote: Off the top of my head, I have read on forums guys complaining about the apparent fixation on huge penises in some porn for example...But they weren't complaining about their girlfriend's porn, they were complaining about their own stash. I've yet to hear mention of romance novels. I'd be curious to hear the take on this though.
just my 2 cents
I doubt any (or many) people are insecure because their partners read romance novels. Probably because most people aren't raised to think romance novels are wrong and bad. The point of the analogy was more to realize well yeah, no one would be upset by that, so why is porn so different? Many romance novels are basically written porn. They're often just as graphic and just as full of unrealistic stereotypes.
Many romance novels are basically written porn.
Sure, but I'd say short erotica is more like written porn. The whole point of the novel is to give other dimensions to the characters, which you typically don't get in porn.
They're often just as graphic and just as full of unrealistic stereotypes.
True, but how many young women aspire to look what many folks might consider "pornified," such as showing your thong in public, and getting playboy bunny accessories, for example. And many consider pole dancing, something that was once relegated to strip club, to now be mainstream?
Then how many young guys are aspiring to be like the characters in a romance novels? How many guys went home after the Twilight Movie and thought, "gee, some girls like that guy---that's the kinda guy I want to be like." My guess, close to zero.
Yet girls will throw on a thong and intentionally let their pants ride down in a second. I saw that at the post office in broad daylight, by the way.
So yeah, my point is that apparently not all unrealistic expectations are seen as unrealistic. Porn hits a lot closer to home for young women.
Yeah, I mean, its true you could just wait. Its also true we could all never eat ice cream or any other sugary or unhealthy food. Think about it. Will you ever eat a food you really like even if you're not that hungry? Well, why not just wait until you're hungrier and then eat healthier food?
Most people just aren't interested in being that self-denying.
Sometimes I'm home alone and I'm not necessarily that horny, but I'm stressed out or tired or bored, and I want to do something that will relax me and make me feel good. Using a vibrator does that nicely, and sometimes I read a story or look at some photos on the internet becuase I know it will make it go faster and feel better. Do I have to do anything at all, or use aids like a story? No, of course not. But why shouldn't I? Its not hurting anyone, and its a heck of a lot better for me than plopping down on the couch with a bowl of ice cream and a plate of cookies to help me relax and feel better.
Was this comment in response to one of mine? I assume it was.
I occasionally eat ice cream or sugary foods because I have a craving, not because I'm bored or stressed. In fact, stress kills my appetite, but that's just me.
Masturbating rather than waiting for your partner is OK is some situations (in my opinion) like, if you are not going to see your SO for a while, if the SO is not feeling well, or if there is a difference in sex drive between the partners (these are just a few possible reasons). But, again, if you are feeling the urge, you don't need any additional aids. And why would you want it to go faster? The anticipation is part of the fun (again my experience.) As for porn making it "feel better" I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that.
Also, men after a certain age can't "reload" on demand so if they masturbate because they're bored or whatever, they run the risk that they won't be ready when their SO is.
And if the GF has a problem with porn viewing and the BF does it anyway, then it IS hurting someone and shows a gross disregard for her feelings.
Yeah, sorry, this was supposed to be a response to your comment upthread. I'm not sure what happened with the post.
Someone might want it to go faster because they don't have a lot of time to kill, or they might want to be turned on more strongly so that they can have multiple or better orgasms. There are plenty of reasons to want an aid such as an erotic story to get you more in the mood, even if it isn't technically necessary.
"And if the GF has a problem with porn viewing and the BF does it anyway, then it IS hurting someone and shows a gross disregard for her feelings."
I think that comes down to how reasonable those feelings are. If I want to, say, be in a play, and its a fun activity for me, but my boyfriend is jealous and would rather me be at home with him-- am I obligated to do what he says, or can I disregard his feelings? Its not always fair to try to control what your SO does with their free time. If one partner watches porn while the other one isn't home, and they still have a decent sex life together, then if the other partner gets upset at the porn use I see that more as their own problem than the problem of the person using the porn.
I guess I should add that certain types of porn would bother me more than others. But you know what? I'm a girl, and I've been turned on by porn depicting acts and attitudes I'd never want to do or put up with in real life. Its a fantasy, a story, and sometimes the taboo is what makes it fun. As long as the actors are consenting adults, I don't think its hurting anyone.
"As for porn making it "feel better" I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that."
Just because it doesn't make it feel better for YOU doesn't mean you have to disagree that anyone else could feel that way. People are different. If you don't get off on porn that's fine, but it doesn't mean other people can't enjoy it.
"In fact, stress kills my appetite, but that's just me."
Well, yeah, that's just you. Some people are the opposite. Again, if YOU don't like porn that's fine, but these are generalities about why anyone might enjoy it.
"But, again, if you are feeling the urge, you don't need any additional aids."
My MAIN point was that (a) you might want to masturbate when you're not feeling a very strong urge, just because you know it will feel good when you do, and (b) even if you do feel an urge, a good scenario to turn you on more can make it a more pleasurable experience.
I agree that if the girl says she wants to have sex and the guy often says no, I'd rather go masturbate, then that's an issue in the relationship. But if he's masturbating when she's not home or doesn't want to have sex, then what's the big deal? Would you rather he pestered her for sex all the time when she didn't want to do it?
Also, this last reason might not apply to many men, but as a girl sometimes I want to have a clitoral orgasm but I don't want to have penetrative sex, because it often makes me sore afterwords. Even if my boyfriend is home, and not busy, it would feel very selfish to ask to go down on me even though I don't want to have sex after.
Anyway, it seems like there are a lot of women who are really really against porn, to the point where the idea of someone else watching it upsets them deeply. If that's the case, then that's fine (although some people do change their mind as they get older, that doesn't have to happen). If you can't stand the idea of your boyfriend watching porn, that's fine. I just think you should mention that upfront, so that you can avoid issues like this. The first few dates are a good time to bring up deal-breakers, like are you religiously compatible, do you both want or not want kids, are you or are you not into drugs and heavy partying, etc. If porn use its going to be a dealbreaker for you, you should bring it up early into the relationship. Don't be shocked if you don't mention it for years and then suddenly snoop around in his browser history and find something you wish you hadn't.
Thanks for the lengthy response.
I could refute each of your points with my opinions, but, as I alluded to earlier, it is obvious that we are not going to agree on this issue.
I have to say this, though, I don't think it's unreasonable for one partner to ask the other to give up porn. There are plenty of other ways to get your sexual excitement. And if one partner knows that the consumption of porn is repugnant to the other, and he/she continues to do it anyway, then that IS a dealbreaker. If the porn user hides it from the SO, then that person is not to be trusted.
I agree people should be honest about it if it comes up. But I don't think most people are going to be like "oh yeah, by the way, I looked at some porn today." If you're really worried about it, you should ask him when you're first dating and make it clear how you feel. Hopefully any guys who don't feel the same way as you will go date someone else.
And, if porn really upsets you, then don't snoop around on other people's computers, because that's the most likely thing they're going to be hiding.
To be fair, this does mean it is not unreasonable to ask your girlfriend, not to use her vibrator anymore, as well.
I can think of many more ways in which vibrators differ from porn than I can ways in which the two are similar.
Miss Kitty already brought up an excellent analogy for written vs visual erotic media, which probably for the sake of this conversation gets us a little closer to understanding some people's discomfort with their partner's mainstream porn use.
I think the underlying psychology surrounding this porn discussion, even if you disagree with it, deserves more nuance and thoughtfulness than just coming up with a knee-jerk analogy that doesn't even address the reasoning behind the person's comments.
I actually think that's a reasonable conclusion. Its not saying that porn and vibrators are exactly the same, but that if its reasonable to tell your boyfriend he can't look at porn because it upsets you, it should also be reasonable to tell your girlfriend she can't use a vibrator because it upsets you. I can easily imagine a man feeling inadequate next to a vibrator that can be any size, stay hard forever, and can vibrate and pulsate and stuff. If he says it makes him feel worthless that his girlfriend sometimes uses a vibrator, then by the above logic, she should stop just to be considerate of his feelings, regardless of how she feels about it.
I love your comment because that's exactly the example I used with my boyfriend! He saw my point when I put it that way. I don't use one but if I did or if I did/used anything else that genuinely upset my boyfriend then I would consider stopping. If it was something I NEEDED then we'd have to talk. I was very clear that I didn't want to emotionally blackmail him into giving up porn if he needed it but he assured me he didn't and I believe him.
I guess if the issue was over something my partner couldn't live without (just like some women need to use their vibrators to experience orgasm) then perhaps it would be time for us to consider seeing other people who are more compatible. It's better than one or both people being miserable because of a difference that is unlikely to change.
Thanks for the advice everyone.
I hope it was clear from my comment that I don't think its usually fair to ask a partner to give up porn or masturbation as long as its not affecting the relationship. If he's leaving the bedroom with you go to masturbate in the bathroom with his laptop that's an issue, but if he's just doing it in his own free time when you're not home, I don't think its a very big deal.
I was saying that IF someone think its fair to ask their partner to give up porn, THEN they should also think its fair to ask a woman to stop using a vibrator, something which most people do not seem to agree with. If you agree that it would be fair for your boyfriend to ask you never to masturbate in your preferred way, then points for consistency.
I hope it was clear from my comment that I don't think its usually fair to ask a partner to give up porn or masturbation as long as its not affecting the relationship. If he's leaving the bedroom with you go to masturbate in the bathroom with his laptop that's an issue, but if he's just doing it in his own free time when you're not home, I don't think its a very big deal.
I was saying that IF someone think its fair to ask their partner to give up porn, THEN they should also think its fair to ask a woman to stop using a vibrator, something which most people do not seem to agree with. If you agree that it would be fair for your boyfriend to ask you never to masturbate in your preferred way, then points for consistency.
(However, I can't help wondering if the fact that you don't use a vibrator means this analogy doesn't really speak to you. Think of something you really like doing when you're alone, and think how you'd feel if your boyfriend told you you could never do it again.)
I should probably add that I don't think all porn is misogynistic, and maybe if its the type of porn your boyfriend has been watching that bothers you, you could consider introducing him to some classier porn.
And, lest I sound too preachy-- obviously, do what works for you. If he's willing to stop (or hide it better) to make you feel better, that's good, and I hope it works out. If it doesn't, then maybe you *should* consider finding people with more compatible opinions on a subject that is so important to you. I hope it all works out for the best, whatever you decide. (I just personally think you're being a little harsh on him.)
Your comments were clear, no worries!
I found out that porn isn't his preferred masturbation habit, which is a relief to me.
I have actually thought about finding him classier porn, but for the life of me I don't know where to find it! I'm not willing to wade through thousands of images that I find offensive to find the good stuff and I've read (perhaps on Feministing, I don't remember) that most "feminist" labeled porn is just women humiliating men, which doesn't sound like it would float the BF's boat. I've also considered asking if he wants to make our own, but that could be dangerous. I trust him not to post the images on the internet, but you never know.
Any tips?
Well, I'm not exactly a porn expert. If anything I prefer written stories. But I have searched for stories, so I'll just say that in general, classier search words are attached to classier porn. So try search terms like erotica instead of porn and sapphic instead of lesbian, erotica for women, etc. Also you probably have to pay for classy porn, but most sites have a free sample section you can look through quickly and close the window if it disgusts you. The only examples I can think of that I was not disgusted by are the types of places that are mostly photos of nude women, not actual sex acts, like Playboy. Or try googling Met Art. But yeah, unfortunately you probably will have to do a little searching around to see what you like. Tabbed browsing is your friend- open links in new tabs and then close them immediately if you don't like them.
Thanks also to you for that bit of nuance. That's kinda what I was thinking about too, even though I didn't specifically voice that in my comment---in essence, exploring the desire to use porn/vibes/literature/etc versus the need to use them. That is an important distinction and maybe I took that for granted in the conversation. I do think trying to listen to why your partner is or isn't uncomfortable with this stuff goes a long way in the conversation, either way.
Porn and vibrator usage are not at all equivalent!
Does the boyfriend feel inadequate because he doesn't look like a vibrator? Of course not, yet how many women are made to feel inadequate because they don't have the physical attributes of a porn star?
Is the use of a vibrator misandrist? Again, of course not. But how much porn is of a misogynist nature?
I could go on, but I'm at work. I just think the analogy is very weak, at best.
You'd think from some of the diehard pro-pornists here that we're asking men to give up one of their basic needs ("food, water, and porn" should be our new mantra, I guess. Or how about this: "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of porn!"). Correct me if I'm wrong, but people managed to enjoy sex just fine long before porn became the multi-billion dollar enterprise that it is today.
Actually, A LOT of guys feel inadequate because they can't please a woman as well as her vibrator can. I've heard this come up a whole lot from various places -- I've had friends with boyfriends who were a little bit jealous, and Dan Savage has told off at least one guy for being insecure about it. It's a pretty common thing.
EVERYONE thinks sexual thoughts about people other than their SO. And chances are they think about people who are more attractive, have bigger tits, a bigger dick, better skills in the bedroom, are more romantic, etc than the person they're with. A lot of people have trouble coming to terms with this, and I think that's where a lot of the anti-porn sentiment comes from.
Society makes women feel inadequate about a lot of things, and that's unfortunate. But really, are you going to feel any more inadequate knowing your boyfriend looks at porn than you are knowing your boyfriend jerks off while thinking about people who aren't you?
As I said before I am comparing the situation where one asks a partner to give up a masturbation technique that made them feel inadequate. And this can be true about porn as well as vibrators.
We can even rephrase the last bit of your post:
>>You'd think from some of the diehard vibrator users here that we're asking women to give up one of their basic needs ("food, water, and vibrators" should be our new mantra, I guess. Or how about this: "Life, liberty, and vibrators!"). Correct me if I'm wrong, but people managed to enjoy sex just fine long before vibrators were accepted in society and sold in all forms and colors.
Talking about porn again, there is something about the argumentation against it I don´t really understand.
If we talk about mainstream porn, I´d usually think about porn that shows us an androcentric fantasy (probably because most porn watchers are men (2 out of 3 were the last numbers I read) sex act, with a porn actress who doesn´t look like a normal woman and a porn actor who doesn´t look like a normal man (Genitalia). Both of them can make people feel inadequate about themselves and both of them are objectified. Usually in such a movie both of them are enjoying what they are doing. Agreed it is androcentric, but why is it misogynistic (hatred of women)?
What I also don´t get, it seems to me that if someone chooses to take part in these sex acts is doing nothing wrong (see the feministing post about a submissive feminist), but if you start taping it, we are talking about hatred of women. Most actors, directors and people watching porn do not hate women. Most people also don´t confuse "fantasy sex" with "real life sex". And while I can understand critique of sexism in mainstream media especially in programms that target young people, I am not sure why adult entertainment (that of course shouldn´t be watched by minors) is seen in a similar way. At least if sex positive feminism is your label and we are talking about sex acts that 2 consenting adults enjoy.
Having said this I wish people would refuse using black and white thinking. These days you find porn for every taste and people, no matter which gender, have different tastes. This might be the woman who enjoys watching androcentric porn, or the man who enjoys watching gynocentric porn (pictures/videos of cunnilingus, femdom etc.). There is also softcore that, reading some posts here, seem to be more suitable for people that get turned off by mainstream porn (I assumed we were talking about hardcore). I am thinking of movies with plot, without genital closeups that are just a move version of the erotic novells mentioned here before.
What I also don´t get, it seems to me that if someone chooses to take part in these sex acts is doing nothing wrong (see the feministing post about a submissive feminist), but if you start taping it, we are talking about hatred of women.
I think the difference for some people is that what happens in the real bedroom generally is considered to be part of a negotiation between people in some kind of a relationship/friendship hopefully with some kind of balance of power and full consent--a concept that unfortunately gets intentionally distorted for entertainment value sometimes.
Regarding androcentric porn, you've brought up some interesting points. I don't think all androcentric porn is inherently misogynistic (some gay male porn is a good example), but I think that there is a heavy influence of concepts that at their core are at the least disrespectful and at worst hateful. I'll give a simple example. There seems to be tendency to refer to females in colorful ways (I'm keeping it diplomatic and clean here). I get that there obviously is something alluring about this (or the language wouldn't be so pervasive) or that it perhaps makes it easier for men to find what they want to watch. But I think it's pretty hard to defend these and other practices as respectful.
Regarding feelings of inadequacy:
I think women are slightly disadvantaged because in our country girls rarely are allowed to mature into women without the dichotomy of constant shaming and hypersexualization of female bodies. To me, this is the root of a lot of the 'anti' sentiment. So yes, I blame society for that, but mainstream porn also isn't completely off the hook either here.
I think your point about how the people in porn don't look like the average person is a good one, but knowing some people in the industry who are really bothered by the statement that their bodies make them "not normal women" (or especially "not real women" or that their bodies are "not real women's bodies"), I just thought I should note that maybe that should be rephrased.
It's very controlling to order your partner to not masturbate - which, constructively speaking is what demanding your male partner not use porn means.
Imagine if a man were to demand that his female partner stop reading romance novels and using her vibrator?
Controlling - YES
Emotionally abusive - YES
An all around passive aggressive power trip - YES
The same goes for women giving their male partners porn ultimatums.
Reality check - people have fantasies, and they will want to masturbate to them.
You have no right to demand that they restrict their masturbation fantasies, or limit them to your schedule, or restrict their masturbation aides to those that you find acceptable.
If you do any of that stuff, you are a controlling jerk, it's a boundary violation and it's a form of emotional abuse.
"It's very controlling to order your partner to not masturbate - which, constructively speaking is what demanding your male partner not use porn means."
I'm sorry, but that is an absolutely ridiculous. Just because you are an admitted porn addict doesn't mean the rest of the world is. You may be male, but you certainly do not speak for all (or even most) men.
I've made this point before, but people had no problem masturbating (and enjoying it!) long before porn became the multi-billion dollar industry it is today.
I could go on and on about how porn is damaging all of us, but we are obviously never going to agree on this subject. However, it's really immature for you to call anyone a jerk just because they disagree with you.
And I am not even comparing porn with vibrators. I am comparing two situtations in which a person interferes with the personal sexuality / masturbation habits of his / her partner (which shouldn´t really be his or her buisness). But let me rephrase a bit:
>>I have to say this, though, I don't think it's unreasonable for one partner to ask the other to give up using vibrators. There are plenty of other ways to get your sexual excitement. And if one partner knows that the usage of vibrators is repugnant to the other, and he/she continues to do it anyway, then that IS a dealbreaker. If the vibrator user hides it from the SO, then that person is not to be trusted.
I really don´t see a difference. While some people have a problem with their partners porn usage other people have problems with vibrators or any other kind of masturbation techniques or kinks or fethishes his / her partner uses.
Ok. Thanks for clarifying. That makes more sense in context.
I disagree... If you have seen what porn can do to families - as I have... Than you have a right to know if you are dealing with someone who thinks porn is acceptable.
In both cases I really wish people would be open minded, talk to each other and find ways or compromises, where both are happy with, which is much better than the "stop it or I´ll leave you approach".
As long as its not affecting your sex life its fine. Talk to him about it, tell him how you feel. But really I do think "its just a guy thing". Guys are wired to have sex and much more horny. They have an endless suppy of sperm while we have a set amount of eggs. They spread the seed while we tend to be more choosey about whos sperm is going inside of us.
In my experience its really not about him not liking you or prefering to look at porn and not you, its just him being really horny. Guys especially are turned on by images, females are more turned on by emotions. Of course guys are still turned on by emotions and females by images, but just saying this is what i noticed.
He loves having sex with you, just try not to think about it and be confident in the fact that would choose sex over porn if he could.
You're kidding, right?
Or maybe I should say: You're trolling, right?
What a bunch of sexist drivel.
1. You had no business on his computer. Boyfriend/girlfriend or not, it's HIS computer, and you had no business spying on his hard drive.
Period.
Full Stop.
End of Sentence.
End of paragraph.
How would YOU like it if he was snooping through YOUR computer, or reading your diary, or secretly questioning your mother, your sister and your best friend about you, or listening in to your cell phone calls?
It would feel kind of violating, and I right?
So, show him the same respect you'd expect from him - it's important to RESPECT PEOPLE'S BOUNDARIES and just because you're in a relationship with somebody does NOT mean that the boundaries go down.
2. Just because he's in a monogamous relationship with you does NOT mean that he's forbidden to have a personal fantasy life - and yes, that can include having sexual fantasies about people that you both know!
Again, it's a boundaries thing - he has a separate inner life from you, because you are two separate people!
And that includes separate sexual fantasy lives!
So yes, he has a right to masturbate to naked or seminude facebook pics of people you both know.
If he has real world sex with those women, it's a different story.
But as long as it stays in the realm of his private mastubatory fantasies, it's his private business, not yours.
And no, it's not a "REJECTION" of you - it's him being SEPARATE and having his own life of the mind that doesn't always have to include you.
It doesn't mean he doesn't love you.
It just means that he's a separate human being.
3. The type of women a straight guy masturbates to has NOTHING to do with his real life with his partner - most men think of real world sex and porn fantasy as two separate things, that have absolutely nothing to do with each other.
So, his choice of fantasy material has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU - it's his fantasy life, totally independent from his real world sex life with you.
4. again, don't spy on people - EVER - stay off his computer, because it is WAY PAST INAPPROPRIATE to snoop on somebody else's computer!
Wow, lecture much?
Don't tell anyone what they can or can not do. You don't know the circumstances of the "snooping." But if someone I was in a relationship with left his commputer (or diary or whatever you want to substitute) on and easily accessible, I would probably find it hard to resist checking to see what sites he visited. And if you're honest, I bet you would do the same.
Stop telling everybody what porn means to men. Again, YOU DO NOT SPEAK FOR ALL MEN, or even most men. If your type ever came to represent the male norm, then I, for one, would have to get over being heterosexual.