In respond to the recent discussions on feminism and submission I'd just like to say this: if what you really want is an open discussion, read this and try to understand where kinky people are coming from. We are defensive because we have been treated poorly, not necessarily by you but by those who sound a great deal like you. If what you really want is for my examination to yield the result that who I am is harmful to society and I should just come to terms with that, this probably won't help.
It's not that I have a problem with cultural critiques of sexuality, I don't. I am fine with discussing theory. Really, we can all sit around and talk about how patriarchy affects sexuality all day long (although I'd really prefer the conversation included all kinds of sexuality), but we need to be aware of the effect that our words and our opinions have on people. The problem comes when theory begins to interfere with practical reality.
I feel, very strongly, that if member's of the dominant culture want to ask members of a less-privileged subculture to "examine their desires, actions, etc," it must be done very carefully and with as much respect as possible. It's easy to theorize about things that have no effect on your own life, but for some people it's not just a theory. It is imperative to remember that what is no more than an intellectual excursion to some is to others a matter of health, sanity, even life and death.
I'm not trying to be dramatic here, this is serious. Many, maybe most, of us have examined our desires more thoroughly than you could possibly imagine. We have passed countless sleepless nights wondering why we are the way that we are, often asking ourselves the question, "what is wrong with me?" We have asked ourselves if there is some trauma that explains this desire, if perhaps it is due to some relational issue with our parents. You had better believe that any of us who call ourselves feminists have already thought to ask ourselves if we are acting on some sort of patriarchal conditioning or internalized self-loathing. We would have to be fools not to have considered that, please don't insult us by implying that we haven't.
We have hated ourselves and feared our desires, fruitlessly wished to just be normal. Some of us have become suicidal. Some have desperately tried to be the people we thought we should be, we have even tried to convince ourselves. As a result, we can (and do) end up in horribly unhealthy and dangerous situations. And really, this is the place where I would really like to see some feminist critique, but I don't. Everyone is to busy telling me to examine my desires to deal with the practical implications of my examination.
So here's the deal, and this is what I wish feminist discussions of BDSM and submissive women looked like. It can be dangerous to be a submissive woman in a male dominated society. Specifically, it is very dangerous to be a sexually submissive woman who is conflicted or ashamed about her sexual desires. Women who are trying to come to terms with submissive desires need a support structure of strong, vocal, and supportive women. Trying to deny submissive desires, or feeling secretive and guilty about them, is dangerous; it can easily lead to relationships that actually are abusive and make it harder to leave those relationships. This is particularly true when we feel alienated from feminist support systems and discourses regarding abuse. If we are sexually assaulted we are likely to be told that we were asking for it because, after all, we're into that sort of thing. We are also likely to feel confused and guilty about the ways our desires resemble the assault.
Submissive women do not need to be talked down to, we (generally) do not need to be told to examine our desires. We certainly don't need you to help protect us from ourselves. What we do need is your respect and support. Please remember that, regardless of your intentions, the words you use matter. Choose them wisely.
0 TrackBacks
Listed below are links to blogs that reference this entry: The Problem As I See It.
TrackBack URL for this entry: http://www.feministing.com/cgi-bin/movabletype/mt-tb.fcgi/12682
Hear, hear.
As a sexual sub myself, I want to add-- kink can make relationships so much stronger. In order to get what I want, I know I have to trust my partner so completely-- I have to KNOW he will not hurt me, know it better than anything else. As a result, I never wind up with any man who is anything less than completely trustworthy. While my sexually "normal" friends struggle with bad relationships, the approach I have to take has meant I have never felt less than 100% certain about who I am with. And I'm never hurt unless I want to be. I know I can't compromise, I never assume I can change someone, I go into it knowing what I will need. That's been so powerful for me.
I've always thought that an adolescent realizing for the first time that they have a specific fetish or are into a specific kink would feel a (milder?) version of what kids feel when they first realize they're gay. Then as they grow up they (hopefully) realize its ok and accept it and enjoy it.
We accept now that the way you're raised doesn't make you gay. I'm not aware of any research on whether the way you're raised affects kinkiness.
Yeah. For me it was very similar, although it was actually harder to come to terms with my kink that with my queerness (this might just be due to the environment in which I was raised, I don't know). So for me it definitely wasn't milder, but I think it varies a great deal from person to person.
Like some of the posters on the other thread, I've also had submissive desires for as long as I can remember. I tried not to for a long time, and it got me into a lot of trouble that probably could have been avoided. That's really what I was thinking about when I wrote this post.
Same. My queerness was never a giant deal for me. The idea that I might also be A PERVERT ZOMG was really... angst-inducing.
Great post. I've noticed that there's been a lot of discussion of BDSM here lately, and many comments basically get into a debate on why women who like it are so fucked up. (Internalized female hatred? Childhood trauma?) I think there's nothing wrong in discussing what motivates someone to "go there," but when there's blaming/shaming/judgment it stops being a discussion and starts being... mean, I guess!
It's funny, comparing my BDSM friends to those who hate it, almost universally the ones openly into BDSM are far more healthy, well-adjusted, comfortable with their bodies and in better relationships!
GREAT post! I noticed that trend in the comments, too, the "you need to re-examine your submission", as though kinky people haven't. For me, coming to terms with my kinkiness has taken years, a lot of reading, and a lot of feminist analysis. To be told I should reconsider because I'm reenacting patriarchal domination or whatever is just insulting.
Hear, hear! As a feminist POC who is a slightly-more-subby switch, I definitely feel what you're saying. I get people telling me that I ought not to sexually submit to my partner because he's white and male. As if all sex has to be more than just sex and must be symbolic of something! To me, those people are unwittingly parroting the patriarchal arguments against female sexuality (i.e. where females having sex is a pathology but males having sex is just sex). Maybe I do it because, erm, it feels good? And in some ways, the sub in the encounter really is the person in charge. It's all about his/her pleasure.
Yeah, I find it frustrating that when people talk about subbing they often assume it involves being passive in every sense. Topping from the bottom people - it's not a strange thing.
How do hetero submissives deal with the fact that they are submitting to a male though? In my mind it's one thing to be a sub but another to not know where your partner's fantasies are coming from. I just cannot imagine why a man would want to dominate a woman wihout it having misogynistic overtones (afterall men are taught there whole lives that women are their sex objects - how is then being allowed to be dominate different?)
Just because I'm a woman doesn't mean I magically know where other women's fantasies are coming from. Brianna G. said it in the first comment: it's about trust.
becstar,
The thing is that if you don't believe BDSM derives wholly from culture, that means it's possible for at least some small subset of men to simply happen to be both dominant and heterosexual. That is, some people will simply happen to be both, rather than to be modeling social norms.
How many of these will there be? I think that depends on your analysis.
Personally, I'd say I've met both men who get it primarily from culture, and who tend to expect that everything will work along M/f lines for everyone and just generally be arrogant assholes and men who simply seem to be doing it because they like it (or, in some cases, because their partners asked them to), who tend to be much less obnoxious.
I think there's a difference. Whether it's easy or not for a straight submissive woman to tell, I don't know, not being one. I'd say yes, though; I hear a lot of straight submissive women complain about people who assume they'll fall in a swoon just because... some guy showed up.
"I just cannot imagine why a man would want to dominate a woman wihout it having misogynistic overtones"
My boyfriend likes to dominate me because it gets me very, very hot. I don't see how wanting to help fulfill a partner's desires is misogynistic.
For me, my male partner pinching me, spanking me, etc. is about how much I love the sensation. I did it to myself before I met him. I have always found specific forms of stimulation (that to others are likely painful) highly arousing. It has nothing to do with one of us being superior than the other outside of the bedroom, it has to do with specific forms of stimulation each of us enjoys.
Well I'm not hetero, and the gender of the person I'm submitting to is far from the most important thing to me, but I have had (and currently do have) a male partner, so I guess I'll give it a shot.
The thing is, I don't just go around submitting to every person who comes along. I'm very selective of my lovers, male or female (or however else they might identify). I generally don't sleep (or play) with people unless I know them very well; we are usually close friends for months or years before there is ever even a chance of kink.
Since I don't tend to have long term friendships that have misogynistic overtones, it hasn't really been a huge issue. I mean really, how does anyone have any sort of heterosexual relationship without it having misogynistic overtones?
You know, you made a wonderful point hun, some days it almost feels like a hold over from slut shameing?
I identify as a sub my self, and it's been -really- hard to balance my feminist ideals with the subculture and my sexual desires.
One of my friends once asked me "how the hell can you let him do that and not feel like you betrayed yourself/ women?"
Well, when in truth it is all about the prospective, I mean I am just as much in charge as to whats going om as He/She is and I can always say stop.
It's just very hard, and as feminists who search for equality, we first need to stop ourselves, think and analyze what we are about to say to another person and realize our truth is not the same as anothers' and we need to be accepting of them as well.
want equality? practice it in our camp first.
I'm so glad you posted this. It wasn't difficult for me to come to terms with my sexuality & desire for kink.. I don't know why or why not, I guess I just always accepted it about myself. I mean it would have been stupid to try to deny my masochistic tendencies when I was masturbating at 13 by pinching and pulling my nipples hard enough to break the first layer of skin (not bleeding, just the first layer, loving it) and slapping my breasts and pinching my clit hard between my fingers. I think for people who don't enjoy physically intense sensation (it's painful for them), it's almost impossible for them to understand that it's pleasurable for some people. Is it so hard to understand that all types of people have very different bodily experiences, how they experience pleasure, how they experience pain?