Crossposted from Yes Means Yes Blog.
My daughter hasn't got the hang of the potty yet, but she's learning. And after she urinates, she wipes her vulva. Because that's what it's called.
Over at Feministe, Jill posted an Onion piece that is laugh-out-loud funny about the shame and embarassment people display over female genitals.
Being one of those humorless feminists, though, I can't help pointing out that there is a lot to take seriously about whether we call girls' genitals what they are or some cute nickname: this is where it starts. We either teach our kids that their bodies are normal and natural, or we teach them that we can't talk about them without stammering and blushing. And in this, so many people fail their girls.
I know lots of parents who can call a boy's penis a penis without stiffling a snicker. Boy parts are ordinary body parts with names. Ear, elbow, penis. Many of these same folks can't use proper terms for their daughters' genitals. Girl parts are unmentionable. They have cute names and euphemisms. That's how it starts.
We teach girls they cannot deal openly and forthrightly with the bodies the way boys can, and then later we teach them they can't deal openly and forthrightly with their sexuality, even if boys can. Boys have penises, boys have desire, boys have sex. Girls ... the adults would rather not talk about. And so we fail. First, we can't call a vulva a vulva. Then we can't call a vagina a vagina, even when it's an award-winning play. Then we can't have these conversations, because we never laid the groundwork; never built the foundation to allow us to parent our children from kids to adults -- whole, sexual adults.
We need to get over it, the only way that works: a little at a time, starting with baby step. It's called a vulva.
0 TrackBacks
Listed below are links to blogs that reference this entry: Wipe Your Shame-Cave, Honey.
TrackBack URL for this entry: http://www.feministing.com/cgi-bin/movabletype/mt-tb.fcgi/12813
It's especially frustrating when people can't refer to the vulva as anything other than 'pussy,' even in a half-way serious conversation.
Something I'm tired of, though, is people calling it a 'vagina,' no matter which part we are talking about. It's called a vulva, people. Just because the vagina has the most to do with the penis doesn't mean we can just call everything the 'vagina.' A penis is not a shaft, it is not a head. And I'd appreciate my genitals being referred to by their proper name, not just the name of the part that men seem to enjoy most.
That is a pet peeve of mine as well. I hate it when someone says they can see a woman's 'vagina' in an otherwise nude picture that just shows pubic hair. It's like, go back and take an anatomy class, please.
this is hardly a gender issue. many people refer to boys genitals as his "wee wee" "dick" "buddy" and various other names. the technical names may embarrass the parents if they have to say it publicly, or if their kids blurts it out, so they use these euphenisms.
I was going to make this point...at a young age, I don't think many parents refer to their little boy's genitals as his "penis" but rather like Jaja pointed out. One that I think that is more used than any others is "pee pee".
Yeah, I always thought there were more childish nicknames for male genitalia than for female genitalia. Pee-pee, weiner, dick ... Don't most people just use the word vagina to refer to the vulva? At least that's the word I remember everyone using when I was a kid. Obviously vagina's not an accurate term to refer to the vulva, but it's not exactly a cutesy euphemism either.
dude. i don't see this as a gender issue either, more one of formality and detail. i *still* use slang/cutesy terms, and i'm not embarrassed about my body and what it does. if i have to go poop, and i'm with friends with whom i talk bluntly, i say, "i have to poop." when i bang into something, my elbow hurts, i didn't have blunt-force injury to my ulna and radius. i've taught my daughter "cootchie", "butt", "boobies", and she knows boys have "peepees". i've taught her the anatomical terms as well, but they're more clinical, in my view, and lend an air of being in a med school class. (and i can assure you, that kid is not shy about her body.) come on. the problem isn't slang, but body shame, and let's not confuse the two.
I have to disagree here. I once said to my (male) friend that something "sucks my clit." He was "shocked" at my mouth and said that dick was okay to say, because he says dick in front of his mother, but would never say clit in front of his mother. Because of course, our genitalia is something to be ashamed of. But men's genitalia is fine to talk about, joke about, use slang terms to refer to in front of your mother....
i'm not sure your friend is representative of society as a whole. I'd bet most people wouldn't use the words dick around their mother. i know i wouldn't. it all depends on the company and context
yeah, i have to agree with jaja here. the more i think about it, the more i realize there are slang terms that have a sexual connotation (pussy, cock, etc.), slang terms that are more for familiar but non-sexual relationships among adults (ass, boobs, etc.), and then we have variants that seem to be used among children only (peepee, cootchie, etc.).
i mean, think how creepy it would be if your significant other proposed having sex by asking, "you want to touch peepees"? i mean, when i have a pelvic exam and the doctor says, "now i'm going to spread your labia and insert the speculum into your vagina," that to me indicates a level of professionalism and a specific sort of formalized relationship with strict boundaries. but, again, if my partner said, "oh, baby, i want to lick your labia and clitoris," i think i might be creeped out again. in that situation, call it my pussy and clit.
i have no issue using slang. in fact, i think if people are more comfortable using it than clinical language, it might stimulate *more* conversation and *less* shame.
i don't think the language is the problem. i think body shame and lack of communication are the problems. yes, sometimes the two correlate. but, as we all know, correlation is not causation.
The cutesy nicknames may not be gendered for children, but they sure tend to stick where women are concerned. I don't know many adults who still say "pee pee," but Cosmo seems to have a whole section of its editorial staff devoted to coming up with infantalizing euphemisms for female genitals ("down there" especially pisses me off). Does anybody else remember the production of the Vagina Monologues that wasn't allowed to post the play's title on the theatre marquee? The point of the post, as I saw it, was that vocabulary dealing with women's bodies is considered shameful, even obscene, in our society. And that's very much a gender issue.
I have a little boy and we have stupid names for all his boy bits. I feel bad about it, but I really don’t like the sound of “penis” it’s just not my favorite word. So he has a “wee-wee.” Maybe I’m just a sap, but with “penis” not only does it sound gross to me, just seems so grown up, a man has a penis, but little boys….they are so little and cute.
His testis? “Seeds”
He knows the real terms for his genitals, but we use the nick names. I wonder sometimes if I’m doing him a disservice as a parent.
Mommy and other women/girls on the other hand have a “yoni”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoni
I love this word; it sounds beautiful, has powerful connotations and feels so right to me. I’m pregnant right now and we’ve had some pretty cool conversations about the baby. He told me that he thought the baby would come out of my belly button. (Logical enough if you are three.) When I explained that mommy would work really hard and push the baby out of her yoni, he was very impressed.
I agree that little children don't necessarily need to have full-grown words--with full-grown connotations--for their genitalia; especially with the growing awareness of intersex children (if girls have vaginas and boys have penises, should an intersex child have to learn 'ambiguous genitalia?'). As long as your son knows the right terms, I think the nicknames you've chosen are wonderful! And obviously you haven't done him a disservice: You've already instilled a sense of appreciation for the power of the female body in him. Right on!
I like the word yoni. Still, I choose not to use it because to do so as a white woman is an act of cultural appropriation.
"Wee wee", "seeds" and "yoni"?
You know, I've always hated baby talk - and I've always been thankful that my mom and dad always spoke English to me, even when I was little.
What's so bad about the word "penis"?
It's a medical term for a body part.
Why teach the boy 'wee wee' and 'seeds' now, and only have to reteach him 'penis' and 'testicles' later?
Sounds confusing to me - and it's double work.
Plus, with that 'seeds' thing...doesn't that make visits to the garden center at Home Depot kind of...embarrassing???
["Mommy, that man is playing with his seeds! You told me I'm not allowed to take my seeds out in public - why does he get to do it? THAT'S NOT FAIR!!!!"]
And "yoni"????
That's the Sanskrit word for "vulva"!
As for it's alleged mystical content - I think that has more to do with bullshit White American appropriation of the culture of "the other" than it has to do with actual South Asian culture and religion, quite frankly.
Beyond that, if you can use the Sanskrit word for vulva - why not use the damned English word???
Little boys have penises, and little girls have vulvas, and they'll be better off knowing that now than having to relearn it as adults.
Or, in the case of the girls, they'll grow up to the the kind of women who at age 40 still refer to their vulva as "down there"!
And "yoni"????
That's the Sanskrit word for "vulva"!
As for it's alleged mystical content - I think that has more to do with bullshit White American appropriation of the culture of "the other" than it has to do with actual South Asian culture and religion, quite frankly.
Thank you for saying as much! When I read Inga Muscio's Cunt, I was similarly pissed off as she too advocates the use of the word "yoni" by white, Western women.
I never heard the word yoni before, but I don't see why its so bad to "appropriate" words from another culture. English is made up pretty much exclusively of words that came from other languages. That's how you get new words, its a perfectly normal thing in linguistics and the evolution of language.
Sigh.
I don't have the energy to explain to you why cultural appropriation is wrong. You are going to have to Google it.
Or, if Google is turning up unsatisfactory results, check out this post from Angry Black Woman: http://theangryblackwoman.com/2009/01/15/what-is-cultural-appropriation/
Yikes. For some reason the URL did not copy over correctly. The latter part should say:
...what-is-cultural-appropriation/
If the word yoni is sanskrit, how is black women using it not appropriating the culture of India?
It still would be an act of cultural appropriation, but to place the focus of this particular phenomenon on women/people of color who engage in it detracts from the larger problem. The bigger problem is whitefolk appropriating the culture and cultural symbols of people and communities of color.
So you know where I am coming from, I get very irritated when, in discussions of racism, white people focus on racial prejudice within and between communities of color. It effectively detracts from the larger problem of white racism.
I feel the same way about cultural appropriation.
whitefolk VS. communities of color
white people VS. communities of color
white racism
It's amazing how hateful and racist you sound talking about "white people" and "communities of color." Right, because people of color are not racist and all white people are racist sons of bitches. Enough is enough of this bullshit. Racism is racism, no matter who is expressing it. A racist white person is no different than a racist black person. Period! You can talk about history and society and institutionalized racism, etc., etc. But none of that takes away from an individual being responsible for their own actions, emotions, and thoughts.
I've experienced enough racism and discrimination in my life to not excuse ANYONE who acts in a way that discriminates or hurts another person based on their skin color. And that includes white people as well as, as you'd like to say, "communities of color."
As for Yoni VS. Vulva? I say vulva, but if a woman wants to say Yoni, then it shouldn't matter if she is Indian, black, white, Jewish, HIndu, whatever. She chooses a word and is allowed to use it regardless of what culture it comes from.
....Aaaaaand this is why I so rarely come into the comments section of the mainstream feminist blogs.
Thanks for nothing, douchebag.
Douchebag? LOL. You see, you just seem a little bitter. No need to be. I expressed my opinion. I disagree with you. You call me a douchebag. Very classy.
And I must also say that it wasn't nothing. It was a very passionate, genuine response to what you had to say. So definitely SOMETHING!!!
Agreeing with you. Agreeing with you so much.
You posted a well thought out response, and all you got was an insult. Sign of weakness from the person you're debating with? Probably.
Yes, I agree with this comment. All words come from one language or culture or another; everyone is allowed to learn a different language and that's how words spread and languages change.
To the previous commenter: Its ridiculous to say "you can't appropriate this word because we appropriated it first!" Besides, why is it assumed that I'm white? If I tell you I'm hispanic does that make my "appropriation" better or worse?
Its amazing to me that you don't think its racist to say that only people of certain skin colors are allowed to say certain words.
Yeah. It does detract from a problem.
It detracts from the problem that there's racism from people that *aren't* white. Racism is a universal thing. In the western world, sure, white racism is the most prevalent. In the western world.
As to 'whitefolk' being the huge perpetrators of cultural appropration? That's bullshit. Jazz, an example brought up on the blog you linked to, have you ever seen someone explicitly referencing its black roots? Well, no. That's wrong, you say. ... Except, wait. Have you ever seen someone explicitly referencing its European roots? ... Well, exactly. It has *both*. It's cultures sharing and creating something that's a *mixture*. That's culture sharing.
Oh. PS:
WHITE FOLKS ARE NOT ONE HOMOGENOUS GROUP.
Good god.
That's probably the stupidest implication in your post. You could say, maybe, 'American' culture. But, even then, we're such a huge nation that even that isn't one group. Southern culture is vastly different from New England is vastly different from the Midwest. Would you rant and rave if one of them 'culturally appropriated' that way?
Not to mention the dozens of European white cultures. Codifying these things into 'white vs black' is stupid.
Hum. As someone whose family actually has a lingam-yoni as part of their religion (*looks at skin color*), I have to say I don't really care. If some non-Hindu wants to say yoni, go ahead. But it would be nice if the words were used they'd be used correctly. Technically, yoni can be a vulva, so it's correct.
Now, I don't think it's right when another culture's icons and symbols are warped and used to perpetuate hate (Swastika) or stereotypes (Temple of Doom, anyone?).
On another note, it is true that there's more "shame" in saying women's parts in today's society. It's been brought up nicely in shows, too. I'm thinking Scrubs, where Elliot spends the whole episode trying to say "vagina" instead of "cooch" (I think it was) or the other euphemisms that her mother taught her (yes, her mother couldn't say them so her daughter couldn't say them!) or I think there was a King of the Hill episode where Peggy is going to teach Sex Ed and she spends the whole episode trying to say "vagina" and similar words, going as far as saying rhyming words and adding other syllables to try and "ease into it."
I notice that many of the complaints on the discussion you linked to talk about not attributing the source of a word, or fashion, or other cultural concept. Or passing the thing off as your own. Those are legitimate complaints, I think. But if you do cite your source, and try your best to be respectful of cultural context, is it still appropriation?
This isn't a snark, I'm honestly trying to figure out where the lines are drawn.
Heh! Two less relevant things: 1) If you're worried about 'appropriating' words from other languages then how can it be right to use the Latin words and even call it "English"? 2) And as a Scandinavian, should I then ask all of you to stop speaking English as that language has it's roots in old Norse? :)
To quote a great feminist, Anita Hill :
You Just Don't Get It, Do You?
No, I believe you are the one that doesn't get it. You come off as an overblown asshole, not deigning to explain why you're angry, in the condescending way that 'Well, you should know what you're doing! And it's WRONG!'. You come off like you're saying that 'White People Should Never Do Anything They Didn't Come Up With. Ever.' (And if that's what you're saying, there are much bigger issues here)
Cultures sharing? It happens all the time. It's happened since the dawn of man. The cultures you're saying are being appropriated? ... Well, where do you think their culture came from? It wasn't that they lived in isolation for thousands of years and developed everything on their own. White people aren't the only people that have 'culturally appropriated', too, which seems to be an undercurrent of this. That's a great, self-serving delusion, there.
Of course, I might have the wrong definition of 'cultural appropriation'. Dictionary-wise, it seems to be just taking bits from other cultures. From reading on Google, I'm getting a bunch of meanings and vague definitions, but it seems to be taking things from other cultures, but doing it inaccurately. Again, this might be wrong, but, hey. Don't get mad at us, yell at us for something, and then not explain why. That's just stupid.
Shoot. Forgot to add one thing in:
I'll agree to part of 'culutural appropriation' being wrong. In the sense of one thing: The inaccuracy/misrepresentation of things like Italian food being what's served at the Olive Garden and Eastern Religions being what they are in bad Kung Fu and such. Sure, take umbrage at ignorance like that. But, what this conversation has dropped to is bordering on hysteria.
If that's cultural appropriation, isn't there a whole lot of it? For Chinese food and often Mexican as well. I can't think of more but I feel like there are lots of times we take from other cultures and change it without realizing it.
I agree with MissKittyFantastico. In addition, learning things from other cultures is a good thing, not the bad thing that cultural appropriation says it is. I see using aspects of other cultures as a compliment to the culture. However, believing that, I can see where the fine line between a cultural compliment and cultural appropriation is. It may be a compliment if, as in this case, parents teach the kids that the word yoni comes from Sanskrit, but it may be cultural appropriation if the parents write off "yoni" as their own word/cultural word. Yet, having said that, it still seems like a compliment to me.
Because it's European Americans defining another culture (in this case, Indian culture) as "exotic" and "the other" - by taking a normal Sanskrit word, yoni, and strapping on all of this mystical mumbo jumbo bullshit.
People of color really resent the White community making us into mysterious creatures who exist for the enlightenment of upscale White folks.
I didn't see anyone talking about mystical mumbo jumbo. I saw people saying they didn't like the aesthetic sound of the word vagina and they liked the sound of the word yoni better. Besides, which do you think its going to be easier for a 3 year old to pronounce?
That would be orientalism you dislike: The mystification of the East (and in Europe/Europeans, also occidentalism: the idea of the "noble indians" in North America). That is not merely using words from other languages but mystifying/ romanticizing/ eroticizing/ demonizing etc of "the other" - misrepresenting and stereotyping other cultures in order to make them appear as totally "different" and "alien" from your own in either an ignorant "kind" or malevolent way. That may be the case with some words but certainly not all.
YES!! It is so damn stupid.
"But it's like, from a mystic Eastern culture - surely that makes it better?" Possibly ifwe could learn the ancient Egyptian for vulva we would beeven more empowered :p
And this is why I hate the internet. No subtlety, lots of yelling. I’m amazed that people feel so entitled to be so rude on message boards. I guess because we are not face to face, some people feel it’s OK to act like jerks.
First of all, I said my son was three, not stupid. He knows all the proper terms for his genitals, penis, scrotum, and testis, etc. he also understands that lots of things have more than one name. I’m “Mommy” but I also have a first name. He understands the difference between the nickname “seeds” for his testis and seeds you plant in the ground. And just like he won’t be calling me “Mommy” when he is 15, he probably won’t be calling his penis a “wee-wee” either.
I think the issue, which was raised by the original post, is not just the term used but the attitude. It’s not only important to use proper terms or at least harmless young childhood nicknames for genitals, but also to not make a face or have a tone of voice that says “shame and disgust.” We always use a positive/upbeat tone when we use these any of our chosen terms.
Because so many names for female genitals in our culture are insulting/demeaning/harshly charged I chose right from the start to use a positive term. I feel that while “vagina” is the “proper term” it doesn’t necessary impart the specialness of the bit of anatomy. And it bugs me that genitals should just be considered “just like any other body part.” They are not, they are special, we use them for love making, baby making, etc…the problem has been for far too long they were considered shameful instead of special.
I first heard the term “Yoni” from a friend while we discussed this lack of “special” feel that proper clinical genital terms have. Her explanation was that if your own culture lacks the right word/concept for a feeling you have; why not use a term from another culture that does fully express the feeling?
As for the charge that I’m awful for culturally appropriating a term from another culture…well, how the hell do we expect anything between races, cultures or socialites to get better and have more understanding if we don’t look to other cultures for insight and inspiration? Sure, I can see how a superficial, or worse, demeaning use of another culture’s “thing” can be insulting, but what about a respectful and appreciative use? I like “yoni” because it means something more than the clinical terms for female genitals we have in our own culture. If anything, it’s the highest form of praise to take the time and effort to understand something different and incorporate it into your own life.
I love this piece. You are so right on. If we don't start at a young age, well both women and men are done a huge disservice by being uninformed as adults.
I have a t-shirt from this past year's performance of 'The Vagina Monologues' that says 'Viva la vulva!' across the front, and while wearing it, a female friend honestly asked me what a vulva was. She is 24. This is just one of many reasons why we need to be honest and upfront about our anatomy and cannot continue to conform to a society where such things are taboo. Say it loud and say it proud.
Yes, I was going to say a reason why parents don't say vulva is because sadly many are probably barely aware that women have a vulva. I love vagina monologues except as times they confuse vagina and vulva. I have a pin from the play that says, "Vaginas are like snowflakes, no two are alike" and I love the message but I don't think vaginas have that much variation, at least not that you could see. Yeah, I'm guessing they mean vulvas.
My mother was very good on body parts. It was always vagina, menstruation or period (I HATE "on the rag", so ugly), penis, bosom or breast, etc. But somehow she had trouble with functions, to the end of her days she still referred to "making potty". To give this (serious) discussion a light side, I had an aunt who was totally committed to proper words for everything. One day my sister and cousin, both about 5, came in from playing in the yard and my sister announced, "Mommy, I need to make potty and Cousin Maria needs to urinate."
I don't think they realized they were talking about the same thing.
I think that much of it may have to do with the fact that we see boys as having something, and girl's as lacking that something. Boys have a penis, and girls don't have a penis.
We need to see the vulva as something, not just lack.
Absolutely, Pan. I hadn't picked up on that, but there's a lot to the "something versus nothing" aspect. If we tell girls that boys have a something and they lack it, I think that can become a habit of mind. They do have a something. It's a different something, but it's something and it's theirs. If we treat their vulvas with equal regard, that too will become a habit of mind.
That's exactly what I meant. I think that we cannot think of a vulva as a lack, but as some 'thing' all its own. We can't just conceive of it as a lack in relation to the penis. We shouldn't even relate it solely to the penis at all.
Additionally, I think it goes we the idea that the penis is active, and the vulva is passive. That must be debunked as well.
Anything wrong with "labia?" I find that is easier for little ones to pronounce than "vulva."
labia is fine, as long as you make sure to let kids know what their labia are and that they have a minora and majora. I just like vulva cause it includes the vulva, the clitoris, the vaginal opening, and the urethral opening. Plus it's just easier to refer to the whole thing when referencing the whole thing.
Either way, as long as the labia aren't referred to as 'vagina,' or worse 'hoo-ha' or the other variety of names, I think it's fine.
When I was little, we called it my "peachy/peachie". My parents NEVER had a dialogue about sex with me AT ALL except that they didn't want me to do it the one time my dad came home early and it was painfully obvious my bf (at the time) and I had had sex.
It is something I resent and I refuse to not talk to my (future) kid(s) about sex. I know it's difficult, but I could have definitely used a comprehensive talk instead of learning everything on my own.
I can't remember what they called it when I was little. I don't remember ever knowing a word other than vagina, but I'm not sure I really knew what the word vagina meant until middle school. And I didn't actually realize where it was until I first tried to use a tampon when I was about 15 or 16. Yeah, I was a late bloomer.
Where is "shame cave" from? I feel like I saw it on a TV show, like maybe Family Guy?
It was on a John Stewart segment about abstinence-only education. "...don't let anyone put his god-stick in your shame cave."
Sorry, it was, "Here in the Brownback family, we learn that boys have a god-stick and girls have a shame-cave, and we never speak of them again."
And you can see it here: http://www.dollymix.tv/2008/05/jon_stewart_on_ladies_shamecav.html
And it's incredible.
Oh yeah! I did see that, I knew it was on some comedy show.
We use "girl parts" and "boy parts" with our kids. They all shower together + they see us naked, and we talk freely about genitals... they know the actual terms for what's there (vulva, anus, testicles, etc.) but since we are often discussing several things, we short-cut to our version of the plural. Plus, I never liked the penis v. vagina frame.
We tell them what each part is for (in a general, age-appropriate way) and talk about how much pleasure they will get from them as they get older. And, sadly, we talk about how no one else should be touching their girl/boy parts.
I know the title of this post is humorous and parents generally don't actually use the term shame-cave, but what do they use? Mine said crotch or vagina. They definitely didn't say pussy or twat or anything like that. Just trying to get a better understanding of what Thomas means when he says "they have cute names and euphemisms."
We called it a Gynie in my family (short for "vagina"). My parents were always pretty cool about those kind of things, probably because my mother taught preschool. From an early age, I understood that "boys have penises, girls have vaginas," so there was no issue about feeling like there was something "wrong" with me for, you know, not having a penis.
Personally, I don't like the words for the female anatomy in and of itself. The terms "vagina," "vuvla," "clitoris," etc. all sound so clinical to me. I actually really like the term "yoni" that someone brought up. It sounds beautiful, like a flower, rather than like a disease ("I'm sorry, Mrs. Smith... you have Vagina.").
I'm a grad student who's doing an independent study about how the inability for women to discuss their bodies with their health care providers hinders their health and treatment. It is unreal the horrific stories I've heard about women who go their whole life suffering because they never learn to talk about their bodies in a non-sexual constructive manner. Everyone suffers from this cultural language barrier.
Love this post.
There's a latin word, pudendum, that when translated means "that which should be hidden" in regards to outer female genitalia. I wonder if that word is the cause of the "shame" in females regarding genitalia... I do know of a little (4 now, known of her since she was 2 years old) girl who uses this term, but her father is a reproductive scientist and he typically only uses the word pudendum when she used to decide that visiting Daddy's office = naked time to run around a giant science building... She is fully aware of the real names-- labia, vagina, etc.-- and I have seen her play teacher with a chart of the female reproductive system and dolls. It's adorable.
On the other hand, my fiance will tell you that when he was 5 years old and his mother worked at an OB-GYN, he got in trouble for telling his friend Chelsea that she had a vagina. He was called to the principal's office and from what I remember, his mom argued that "there is no shame in calling something what it is."
I'm in an area where I can't imagine the school doing that. But if they did, they'd have an irate (and litigious) parent to deal with.
Since you mentioned latin, I have to bring up one of my geeky pet peeves. 'Vagina' means 'sheath' in latin. As in sheath for a sword. Now a sword has a purpose outside of a sheath. A sheath has no purpose without a sword- in fact, a sheath is made for the very purpose of containing a sword. In etymological essence, this means that the purpose of my vagina is to act as a sheath for some dude's penis. Accordingly, vagina is not my favorite word.
I think what your wider point is true, but I also think that the same could be said for males. I just think it's different for men and women. I don't see much evidence to support that men should be ashamed of their genitals, but women are certainly taught to be ashamed of theirs. Sure, men have plenty of insecurities about the size and shape of their genitals, but at least there's a standard that men can envy. What kind of genitals are women supposed to have? It seems like no matter what women's genitals look, feel, and smell like, it's all wrong.
What kind of genitals are women supposed to have? It seems like no matter what women's genitals look, feel, and smell like, it's all wrong.
BackofBusEleven, I was of the idea that women also had an ideal in regards to their genitals? Isn’t the ideal genital for women supposed to be “tight” in terms of feel, with all the “naughty bits” neatly tucked in inside (they photoshop labias that poke out, and are considered unsightly in magazines like Playboy, etc), ie. None poking out, and the smell better be something flowery and nice (hence ads for douches, and that quip about how “yucky” vaginas smell like dead fish or something?)
Afterall, isn’t there “vaginal rejuvenation” that will make your vagina look more….”youthful” and tidy, instead of looking so tired?
I’d definitely say that, just like men, there is an ideal for women as well, as foolish as that might sound.
Really? I'd heard that some porn stars were popular in part because of their "pouty-lipped" vulvas.
I don't rightly know, as they don't sell Playboy here. But I read somewhere about the incident that happened when Pamela Anderson's labia just vanished in one picture (compared to one before the Photshop which they published earlier) and people pointed that out.
Isn't the problem rather the lack of good (non-silly, non-shaming) ENGLISH words for those parts? I mean, why should it be seen as more open, direct and honest to start speaking Latin when referring to genitalia?
We call our elbows elbows, and ears ears, but when referring to certain parts of our body we stop speaking English? I think that may be a problem and be a bit alienating too. Are there really no English words that can be used (I'm not a native English-speaker).
In lack of good non-alienating English words, I guess the Latin ones are just as good as any other (well, better than some). But the fact that we only have the Renaissance medical terms for these body parts just highlights the issue: They are unspeakable and unmentionable, except in a purely scientific language that is otherwise dead and not used in normal life.
I think this is a really good point, particularly about female anatomy. The standard word in middle and late middle English was The Dreaded C-Word, or its variant, "cunny." And that was the equivalent of penis - a bit slangy, perhaps, but not impolite, or at least any more impolite than any other word for "privates" (also a term in common use then). It was a good solid English word, and I'm sad that it didn't survive with its dignity intact.
Does anyone know to what degree this is an issue in other Western languages? I know vagina was pretty slangy for Latin (we're really still calling it a "scabbard"? As though we're a troupe of ravaging, lonely Roman soldiers who weren't permitted to have families but could rape or sleep with prostitutes as much as they pleased? Really?) but hat about French or Spanish, or etc...?
You know, half of English is Latin and French loan-words, and the other half are Germanic. The latinate words are generally longer and considered more formal, but they are words. They are not medical terms if we use them in everyday language.
The problem is not that all words for women's genitals are either technical or rude. Rather, it is because of how our culture deals with women's genitals that every term has been consigned to either the technical bin or the slang bin.
Fighting that requires making a stand in support of a word, and in support of the proposition that there must be and is a way to talk about women's genitals without embarassment.
I can add that the same issue is true for Danish, where the words for genitalia are either a) silly-sounding childish words and b) "adult" (with sexual connotations) but (for some) vulgar-sounding words. Worse: In Danish the latin words would sound even more silly (like you're avoiding to talk about it), which leaves us with a very meager vocabulary depending on the individual's relationship to various words.
Ever heard of Loan Words?
American English is full of them - from Latin, from German, from a half a dozen African languages, from dozens of Native American languages, from Japanese ect.
So, yes, Vagina IS an English word!
Just like all the other words we borrowed from other languages (Honcho, Crew, Kindergarten ect)
How does this comment fit in with your above comment that its not ok to use "yoni" as an english word?
Yes, I have heard about loan words (see my post further down about English and Norse). That's not so much the point though. I'm not against loan words at all but point out that it is interesting that English needs a Latin loan word for genitalia (another loan word). If they don't exist then of course we need to loan them, but I find it relevant that we have this lack and need in the first place.
By the way: When a word from another language is incorporated into a new language, then it often changes meaning. If "vagina" is not merely a medical term but a part of normal English language, then in English it clearly means something different than in Latin as it is used to refer to the Vulva in normal English.
All of this is fine - there's nothing wrong with taking a word you need, as long as we can discuss (also a loan word) it's meaning, use, origin and the reason for using it.
Something that hasn't been mentioned is the safety issues that go along with not teaching our children the "correct words" for body parts.
No one wants to think about thier child being sexually abused/molested, but if something happens and that child reports to a teacher/adult that so-and-so touched my yo-yo, and that person doesn't know what "yo-yo" stands for, they aren't going to be able to help the child. Or, if someone is reporting to the police, ect., the case will not be very strong if a child uses baby terms.
Being embarrassed to talk or say the proper terms should not stand in the way of securing your child's safety.
Just my two cents...
I get what people are saying here, but I see nothing wrong with adults using a general term, such as "bottom," to talk with children about their genital area, because for a lot of the hygiene and safety conversations adults need to have with children, the relevant issue is less a particular part "vulva" "vagina" etc. than the entire area.
No, no, a thousand times no!!
My daughter says her brother has a penis. She says daddy has a penis. She says she has a vulva. She says mommy has a vulva. She's trying to understand the world. She's trying to understand her body. We don't just need to communicate with her for the purposes of hygene and safety. We need to communicate with her so she can form her understanding of the world. If we tell her it's all her "bottom," we're on the path that leads to that Onion piece.
And anyway, generalities do not suffice for even the specific purposes. A rash on my daughter's bottom is not a rash on her labia. If her bottom hurts, she might have fallen. If her vulva hurts, we had better investigate. If her swim teacher touches her bottom, she might be helping her onto the wall. If she touches her vulva, I probably need to file a police report.
"Bottom" covers a LOT of territory - ESPECIALLY if you have to teach a girl about how to wipe herself in such a way that she doesn't get infections.
It's way easier (and 10,000 times CLEARER and MORE ACCURATE)to say "wipe front to back - from the vulva to the anus" than to say "wipe your bottom front to back"!
Or, if you have to teach an uncircumcised boy how to clean under his foreskin - that conversation is going to be a lot easier, and more useful for the boy, if you use words like Penis, Urethra, Foreskin than if you say "bottom".
Hell, I'm not even sure HOW you'd tell an uncircumcised boy how to clean under his foreskin WITHOUT using the actual words for the parts of his penis!
Also, why the need for euphemisms?
Is there anything shameful about anuses, vulvas, penises and testicles?
You wouldn't use a euphemism for Tongue, or Teeth, or Ears, or Wrists - so why euphemisms for the genitals?
If anyone is interested in more information or wants resources about parent/child communication when it comes to sexual health, check out http://noplacelikehome.org/. This site is part of Planned Parenthood of Southwestern Oregon's Education Department. There is great info about communication, age appropriate info, etc from the age of 3 through 18. As a Sex Educator at PPSO I can personally say that the information is great for anyone with young people in their lives.
My mom just told me I had labia. So I called everything my 'bia. I was in my teens before I looked at an anatomy book and found out the labia was only part of my vulva, not the whole thing. But I'm glad she at least gave me a word to use and talked to me about it. According to my daycare provider, the current word of choice for female genitalia in the preschool set is "cookies." Not only is this cutesy and stupid, but the thought of all that sugar down there, no matter how figuratively, makes me feel yeasty. Anyway. My son is three, and already starting to figure out that he has a penis, Daddy has a penis, but Mommy doesn't. He pointed at me and said "Mommy's penis?" the other day. So I said "Mommy's vulva." He pointed at me and said "Mommy's vulba" then pointed at himself and proudly said "Brennan's vulba!" I actually felt kind of bad that I had to break it to him that he doesn't have a vulva. But I'm sticking with the Latin names. They only sound weird because we're not used to hearing them.
I remember hanging out with my rather vulgar (but still PC, we're a respectful bunch) guy friends, and deciding to pull out one of my favorite, never get to use phrases: "That can just suck my clit." Regardless of all our favorite dick jokes, they viewed that as too obscene for our discussion. Dick, cock, penis, whatever, but clit? No thanks, that's too weird for us.
People don't have to prefer penis and vulva or use only those words with their kids. There is preference but then there are kids who never hear the proper words until sex-ed and maybe not even then and that is a problem. I'd be interested in a survey of what age most people find out what specific parts "down there" are called.
I don't remember what my mom called it exactly, or if she called it anything. I think she linked everything together and told us girls to make sure and wipe our "butt". I remember being confused because she called my brothers penis a penis and he had a butt too so why were all of my parts just one big butt.
I actually remember hearing it called a pussy somewhere and I was so proud that I finally found a name for it that I announced it to my mom, "mommy, I have a pussy". I then remember getting tobasco sauce on my tongue for using "naughty" words. I don't think I actually found out what it was called until 5th grade sex ed.
So I make a point of letting my boys know that they have a penis.
My mother taught me vagina which never meant much to me until I was about eight and a friend explained the difference between vulva, vagina and urethra. After this i felt such pride over my genitals, that I knew where and what all the individual parts were. For me as a young girl this felt so empowering.
My mom called it "my front-butt"
haha, oh mom!
If I ever have a girl, I don't know what I would call it. I turned out ok, even though I didn't know the technical terms for it until I was older. If I have a boy someday, I'll probably use something stupid like "pee pee" or "weiner", and if I have a girl I'll probably say "pee pee" or "front butt" (okay, maybe not "front butt").
Or maybe I won't.
Who knows.