woah! great post and great topic! I've had many heated discussion with my boyfriend on feminism and keep running into this wall where, when i'm trying to make a nice critique of something, I then end up having to defend the existence of feminism. Yes, very frustrating.

So far, what I've found, is that feminism is slightly scary to him. He feels I am attacking him personally or that he needs to defend his gender because its 'us versus them'. We are getting past that and he is finally starting to notice things - all due to the fact that I've been persistent in pointing out even the smallest of details that I notice.

To me, its all in the details and like you said, to just stand by silent would be a death of spirit. So maybe, just pointing things out over and over will start to show him how pervasive things like this are and how little details add up to create a very problematic general consensus in the societal mindset.

Since one particularly uncomfortable holiday dinner where my Father called me "so bloody pink" that I can't see reason. Followed by my mother explaining to my husband that we have always interacted that way and his observation that Dad's approach is abusive (poor Mum ended up being the most upset). We have adopted the completely dysfunctional approach of not talking about anything to do with politics or art.

That said you could ask your Dad if he thinks that Obama would be where he is without Jackson or Sharpton having come before him?

"Patriarchy oppresses men just as much as it oppresses women. He said he has felt required his whole life, as the sole breadwinner, to work and provide for us. He argued that men aren't allowed to be emotional, or vulnerable, or any number of other characteristics that patriarchy has deemed "feminine" but that sometimes come naturally to men."

You should have latched onto that and asked him why, if he believed as much, he was still resistant to feminism. Because if those statements are true, that's even MORE reason to be feminist, its not a reason to push against feminism. Right?

Lucky for me, my boyfriend never put up any sort of fight about whether or not patriarchy oppresses women. It's not like he thought it did before, he was just able to understand it because we were in separate towns (boo school) and talked mostly via AIM, and I was telling him about a book I was reading for advertising class by Jean Kilbourne. Basically, he saw how horribly awful the portrayals of women in ads were, and I guess it just made everything else more easy to believe. Now it's him who struggles with getting his friends to believe that women are oppressed at all, and he finds it frustrating.

My dad on the other hand, refuses to even attempt to listen. If I try to tell him I find something offensive, he tells me to lighten up and I care too much. He really just refuses to listen. I don't think there is much you can do for people who refuse to listen. I could probably tell him the horror stories of how his daughter has been raped, sexually assaulted, grabbed by strangers passing by, stalked, been told creepy comments at work (Staples Uniform = not 'inviting') and almost killed herself over her body that she'd hated since she was 11, and he would still refuse to believe it had anything to do with me being a woman. Hell, I don't know if he'd even believe any of that happened to me.

So it might be frustrating, but my advice would be to gather as much information about a particular area, say where the male gaze is catered to (everywhere), and go from there. Usually I get my dad to understand (you know he does when he stops talking) when you point out an example that there is no counter to.

I'd also mention how it seemed like according to him, Obama only got to be president because he played by white people's rules, which is still racist. Not to mention he's half white himself. I honestly don't know if he still would have made it if the other half was anything but white. But that's how little faith I have in people.

I'm not sure I understand the fight about who patriarchy oppresses "more." Who cares? If he's already conceding that patriarchy oppresses men as well as women, that's a victory in my eyes. I've found that getting men to personally identify with the negative side of their privilege is the hardest part of getting them on board the feminism train.

So instead of playing oppression olympics with him, just say, "Yes! Patriarchy gives us ALL the short end of the stick. And we need to change it." Then you can focus all your energy on how to change it, rather than who's got it worse.

Also, if the exact argument ever comes up again, explain that not everyone needs to be or wants to be or even can be as successful as Obama, and that pointing out the smaller things is a simple way to incorporate activism into your daily life. Barely anyone is going to be able to affect the entire country by becoming president, but it is still important to influence the comparatively small number of people in your life. Additionally, grassroots activism is a necessary precursor to a larger movement.

I really like this post because me and my Rush-Limbaugh-loving father fight (umm...debate?) all the time.

Try to compare your experience to things he would understand. My father is white, middle class, and obviously male, so its hard to get him to relate to prejudice. But he's a Southerner who has encountered a few really hateful people while working up North because of stereotypes about Southerners. So in a situation like yours, I would bring up movies that have really stupid, negative portrayals of Southerners and ask if that bothers him. And point out the real effects that movie portrayals have on other people's attitudes. And that the SMALL things, like the attitude of a check-out clerk once she hears his Southern accent, DO matter.

Are there any things like that you can use to try to get your father to understand? Otherwise I would focus on the negative effects of patriarchy on men in his situation to get him to empathize.

This is a great topic, and more than even the ways we interact with males that disagree with feminist perspectives, I think it touches on the privilege issues related to men as they recognize patriarchy.

Its true, on the one hand, that patriarchy is actually debilitatingly terrible to men. More so, even, than we as feminists often give it credit for. The patriarchy essentially makes most of males decisions for them--there is a "right" and a "wrong" way to behave as a male, and making the unmanly choice comes with a whole host of patriarchal punishments. Consequently, the system keeps most men pretty much in a permanent state of check. Its a good thing that your father has recognized the ways patriarchy hurts him and all other males. No doubt, you've pointed this out to him in your debate.

But obviously this doesn't compare to the oppression of women, and there's the rub: since human beings perceive all wrongs done to them more sensitively than wrongs done to others and especially wrongs they do to others, it is difficult for men who recognize their own struggle with patriarchy to see it as anything but equal to female struggles.

This is an impossible debate to resolve, because oppression is not quantifiable. This leads to classic problems like arguments between the hierarchy of race issues and gender issues, which generally end up being counterproductive. The solution, then, is to make all parties as conscientious of all oppression as possible. Anecdotal evidence can always be refuted by more anecdotal evidence, so truthfully, talking about it is usually not going to create an immediate change of heart.

Recognition of the volume of oppression can only happen over time. Chances are, the OP's father is probably already more conscientious about this already, and on the way to understanding the differences between how patriarchy oppresses men and women.

I haven't really talked feminism with my dad, but I had a really successful talk with him about gay rights many years ago. This is what I did:

1. I tried to talk about things in terms of his values, not mine. Since he raised me, that's fairly easy for me to do. He's a devout Christian and a Scout leader, so I talked about suicide rates in gay youth and the cost to your soul of having your church reject you.

2. I listened to him talking, thanked him for telling me how I felt, acknowledged that his experiences had shaped his feelings, and then asked if I could share some of the experiences that had shaped my feelings on the topic. Then I did so.

3. After I'd told a few stories, I asked a question about something else, which gave him time to think about the experiences I'd shared without feeling the need to defend his position. And I never brought it up again. Neither did he, until a few years later, when he mentioned that their poor treatment of gays was one reason they had left their church.

Obviously, your mileage may vary. My dad's a pretty exceptional guy, in that he's never stopped wanting to learn and grow. But like the rest of us, he tends to dig in when attacked. He and I had argued for years about this, and many other topics, and this was the approach that seems to have been the most effective.

I have major disagreements with family members on many things: religious extremism, racism, gender-specific expectations.

Rather than bump up against them repeatedly in verbal battles of the wills, I have decided to stop addressing them battle-by-battle, point-by point.

I no longer respond to obnoxious, privilege-saturated junk mail they received from heaven knows where and forwaded on to me. I no longer engage with my father when I hear him happily holding forth---in the most unconsciously dehumanizing fashion--about ethnic/tribal groups other than our own.

So, what's my new plan?

I am keeping a written, running record of every supposedly "minor" and "alleged" slight which humanists are, we are accused, "prone to exaggerate because [we] like finding fault in everything."

Currently, my journal (it is a literal journal) is a list of one-sentence, race-related items with date and time and location noted.

When a close friend of another ethnic/cultural group does something that defies the stereotypes of them, I write a one-sentence entry about it.

When I am treated to a disparaging joke by X ethnicity about Y ethnicity, I, a member of Z ethnicity, record it.

I will soon be adding sexism and fatphobia and other related entries.

Every time I am harassed in the street, I will record it.

Every time an ad for a cleaning product comes on TV and the protagonist is a woman, I will record it.

Every time I open an anatamoy book, look up Human Body in the concordance, and turn to the page to find The Human Body depicted as featuring testicles and penis, I will record it.

Every time I go to a movie and the only conversations between two or more women have to do with men, romance, or relationships, I will record it.

Everytime I hear a person shout "That [situation] totally raped me!," I will record it.

Every time I read a "news" article in "news sites" such as ABC News (U.S.) or "progressive" sites like HuffPo that focus on women politician's physical looks, clothing, age, or marital status, I will record it.

I will record and record again until the mountain of evidence piles up on itself. All teh while, I have been smiling and changing the subject when a family member goes off on a racist or classist rant.

After a few months of this, when the journal will no doubt be full, I shall approach the naysayers an disbelievers, shall drop the journal in their laps, and shall say, "I made this for you. Thought you might be interested in reading it."

And I will walk away and leave them to do what they will with the evidence.

Perhaps then, when faced with the full force of a years' worth of misogyny and racism and classism and ablism and ageism, they will see the wisdom in the phrase,

"Death by a thousand paper cuts."

I don't really talk about these issues with my parents very much. Remarkably, I've never been close to them in a way where I talk to them about movies or cultural issues. Part of it is that they grew up in a very different culture than mine, but they also have very different interests from me.

I think every situation is unique. Reading what you wrote, I don't think it can all be described as simply "talking about the patriarchy", or that there is a pat answer to your entire conversation with your dad. As I read, at each turn in your conversation you were wrangling over a unique issue, one after another. If there is one piece of advice that I would say, it would be, listen to the other person and listen to yourself.

My dad was completely indignant. He felt that Apatow had the right to tell stories from his own perspective, and that it was completely logical that he was able to create more well-rounded, interesting, and appealing male characters because "you write what you know."

Firstly, he's already conceded that Apatow's writings are biased toward the male perspective. He didn't even try to challenge your interpretation. He's only emotionally defending Apatow. Score one for you.

The next step is to draw him in emotionally to your argument where he's already conceded a bit intellectually.

I notice that you are focusing, emotionally speaking, on the sexism and how it hurts viewers especially women, while your dad is focusing, emotionally speaking, on Apatow and his role as an artist. Your goal isn't to attack Apatow but to invite your father's sympathy for your feelings and his sense of fairness toward women in general. Make him forget about Apatow all together and think just about women.

For example, you could say "Yes, Apatow has the right to tell stories from his perspective, which is a male perspective, and you do write what you know. So how come there are almost no female screenwriters or directors? How come there are far fewer movies of any type that have a female protagonist? If women are half of movie goers, should there be women screenwriters and directors who know women and can write from the woman's perspective? Where is the female Apatow?"

Basically, I think that part of the problem is that when a woman brings up sexism, the man will a lot of the times see it as an attack on him, since he is a man. As a man, I don't respond to feminist critiques as if it's an attack on me personally or even manhood in general, because I understand it is an attack on a specific attitude or action, or a cultural practice, unless someone did something in particular. But if I did view each feminist critique as an attack on all men, then I would bristle defensively as well.

On the other hand, you know your dad supports you and loves you. The vast majority of men support and love their women, and even in the abstract, we will be sympathetic and fair to women. Most of the time, we are not stupid and we know when something is unfair.

So, in these situations I think you should take the focus away from the person or group committing the offending act, and move the focus toward the victim or the sufferer of the act. If possible try to make them forget about the male perpretrator completely and focus only on how the act unfairly hurts women, and how it is a double standard. That's my two cents.

You are right, but if it makes you feel any better, your dad seems like a more forward-thinking man than my dad. He recently stated that we shouldn't have a woman as president because of Hillary's "crying". I said, well don't you think she would try to come off as more emotional after being called a ball-buster? He sat there and looked like he had never in his life thought that perhaps, just maybe, she could be reacting to sexism, and maybe, just maybe, wasn't really all that sad. I'd like to introduce feminism to him a little bit at a time. Not too much though, I don't want his brain to explode.

There are a lot of great comments on this thread, and it's a great subject that I've wrestled with a lot myself.

In my experience, even talking to a feminist man can be like this sometimes. My husband is a feminist and usually sees and/or agrees with a lot of the same sexism that I do. But he still has his moments when he disagrees with me. Sometimes he really has a point that I hadn't thought of before; sometimes he feels attacked as a man; sometimes he doesn't see the sexism that I do.

While your dad may not be calling himself a feminist, he still seems to realize that at least sexism exists, which is a hurdle that you can never cross with some men. Maybe if you just talk to him about the things you find offensive personally, without words like "sexist" or "patriarchy" or whatnot, you will find that he actually agrees with you more than you think (if you haven't already!)?

This was interesting for me to read (both the OP and people's comments), because it is an issue I have myself grappled with. Likewise, my dad has always believed that I could accomplish anything and in fact encouraged me in a number of typically "male" pursuits. He taught me how to fish as soon as I could walk, encouraged me in playing hockey and participating in Tae Kwon Do. And when I called my parents from college last year to tell them I had been raped, he was more supportive and angry than my mother even.

However, despite his essentially feminist perspective, he has a terrible reaction to the word "feminist". He once tried to tell me he doesn't like feminism because "he doesn't think people should have to join groups to change things"...? He regularly make jokes about bra burning. And I think part of his frustration is that he tries to be fair and sees my support of feminism as a personal critique of him.

I just make a point of discussing my perspective (calmly) whenever possible. When you have a man in your life, who not only you love, but who loves you - if you show how that those he care about have been harmed by patriarchy, I think it eventually opens their mind.

I actually had this talk with my father this past weekend. He didn't go to college and barly graduated high school so I didn't mention anything about "patriarchy" or anything else so academically abstract, I just tried to get him to analyze why he holds the values he does.

He has probably been hurt by patriarchy more than any other man I know personally, but I still admire him for what he has accomplished. His father was the typical example of what I think of a patriarch: never crying, never saying he loved his wife or sons, always working, never complaining, never visiting the doctor. He died filling a truck with concrete blocks even though he had already had multiple heart attacks. My father followed in his footsteps.

He started work at 16 as a paper boy and worked straight through till last year when he retired. He always took care of my mother: managing the finances, making all the civil and societal arrangements necessary for life (filing taxes, buying the house, buying the car, setting up insurance, etc.) And my mom (with multiple masters degrees) was happy to let him.

My strongest memories are of him working in our backyard building decks, planting plants, setting up sprinkler systems. I was always impressed with how hard he worked and he always used to tell me that he needed to get his various projects done for my mother. He was the type of person that would get up in the morning no matter how he felt, go to work, come home and toil in the backyard day in and out. He would never say anything about sore muscles or the heat outside or mosquitoes. And, he never visited the doctor until he had a heart attack, then diabetes, then a stoke, then another heart attack. When his mother died, he disappeared into his room and was very quiet for a week or so, and that was it. At 55, he was fired from his job, had no education outside of the profession he had worked all his life and was left with no choice of career options. Both he and my mother had to find work. I remember that, even though he already had a heart attack at this point, he purchased some workout gear and managed to pass a fitness test to become a security guard.

I had to help move everything out of a room in our house this past weekend which was the reason I was able to talk to him face to face. The man I knew to shovel piles of dirt for hours and carry stacks of timber now shuffles along with a cane and can barely manage to walk 50 feet without sitting. Yet, he insisted on helping me box and stack everything wheezing and groaning all the way.

When I tried to talk to him about what I saw as the influence of gender roles in his life, I just started with asking him why he didn't take better care of himself and why he felt he needed to work so hard and sacrifice so much. His response was that he had to do his part in the family and be strong for us. He said it was part of his honor and that it was the right thing to do. I tried to get him to understand that it was OK to be weak at times and to allow for some self-indulgence if he wasn't feeling well. I really wanted him to see that eating healthy and allowing others to handle things wasn't wrong at all and that this "honor" was largely just a set of unnecessary rules which weren't in anyones best interest.

I don't think I got through, he still thinks my sister and mother can't handle things as well as he can (and maybe he is right but only because he has done things for them for so long). He still refuses to go see the doctor when he feels bad, still insists on handling all the family affairs instead of teaching my mother. I think it's just hard for people who have had such strong indoctrination in how they are suppose to act to change after so many years. I can't tell him it's the patriarchy and make him understand that his values aren't necessarily positive. I try to tell him that women are just as capable as men and he just smiles and nods and I know he doesn't believe me (he won't even let my sister drive his truck. I guess a truck is too manly). At this point, I am considering encouraging my mother to take charge of family issues and start leading. I've tried to talk to her about why she shouldn't just let people take care of her but I suppose it is easier to just let things be.

Wow. Reading this entry was like looking into my not so distant past. I had this EXACT conversation with my ex-girlfriend about two months ago. As a white male, I had never thought about how much my privilege impacts my reality. When she tried to explain to me the implications of calling her a "girl," I simply couldn't understand what she was saying. I responded by telling her that she, and the feminist community at large, needed to work on uniting and not dividing and moving forward by being the change she wanted to see. In short, I was (and still am to some extent) your father.

But, don't give up. Don't stop having these conversations no matter how frustrating or seemingly pointless. You never know the impact you have on those around you. I'm sure my ex has no idea that she aroused a new consciousness within me. The spark she ignited has turned into a flame. Everywhere I look I see examples of subtle and pervasive sexist and racist oppression. I'm struggling with my new consciousness, but I'm certainly happy my eyes are finally open to the world around me. Now I get it. I understand why it's important to draw attention to examples of sexism in everyday life. So please. Don't stop having this conversation. It certainly isn't pointless. I'm living proof.

I've found Alan Johnson's book, The Gender Knot, to be really helpful when talking to male family members and friends about feminism and patriarchy. As a man, Johnson's words often hold more weight with men than do the words of female authors writing on the same subject (an issue Johnson addresses in his book). I personally am willing to make this concession because it has helped open the eyes of many of my male friends and family members and has rendered them more receptive to female-authored feminist writings. Reading Johnson's book has helped them see what they can do in their own lives, from their positions of privilege, to work toward ending oppression.

I've found that asking the men in my life to read the Gender Knot (or specific chapters) has led to some thoughtful discussions afterward. Spending some time alone with the book also allows them to process what they're reading without having to react to it right away (like they might have to if I were to share the same information in a discussion with them).