So, I don't know if this is the place for this post, but I feel that I need to write it, as it will make me feel better. Here it goes...
I have never been what the patriarchy would consider beautiful, or even pretty. I'm tall and white, but I'm not thin, my hair's not blonde, my face is assymetrical, and I'm quite introverted (yes, extroversion is a big part of patriarchal beauty...because, hey, if you're not the life of the party what are you worth?). But I've always been the smart funny girl; thus, (some) people like to be around me. And these are two things that I consider to be attributes, as they're something I look for in people (romantically or otherwise). However, it has never given me much luck in love, because boys just want to be friends with me. Don't get me wrong, I've gone out with a few guys but these have never worked out, which hasn't been a bad thing thus far. Recently though, I met someone who I thought was perfect for me.
We started hanging out and we really connected. He's smart, funny, and basically everything I've wanted in a partner. And things seemed to be going well. Last night, however, he told me that he didn't like me for more than a friend, esentially because I'm not pretty enough. This was shocking to me, because just before he told me that he gave me a list of things he liked about me...I didn't think he was that shallow. But, I guess he is.
This, obviously is extremely disappointing. As far as I knew (and bassed on what he talks about) he's quite feminist, so I figured looks wouldn't matter so much to him. But obviously they do and it hurt me, a lot. Last night I cried, felt like I was going to die, and decided I'm going to most likely die alone, but that can only be expected as I was basically in love with him the first time we talked.
When I woke up this morning with puffy eyes, I realized something. Sure, he doesn't think I'm pretty, but is it actually him who feels this way? Or is it what has been taught to him? It's probably a little bit of both. He might not think I'm pretty, but bassed on everything else he likes about me that shouldn't matter all that much...but he was raised in a patriarchal society that puts far too much emphasis on beauty and what other people think. Maybe he likes me and is just embarressed...and if he's embarressed of me why I want to be with him? Even if he is amazing, I have no reason to want to be. And that's my conclusion. Sure, I'm sad, but I'll get over that. Sadly, he most likely won't get over what the patriarchy has taught him.
I don't know if this point is valid or simply self preservation...either way, I like it!
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I think its a good point that society decided what he was attracted to, not him. Or at least influenced it a great deal. What's deemed attractive has changed a lot through the years - look at paintings from a couple hundred years ago. They're kinda chunky, small breasted, large hips... you know... like real people.
That said, don't waste any tears on this guy. If he's going to be a jerk to you, he's not worth your time. Please don't be gloomy; I very much doubt that you'll die alone. :)
Girls with large breasts are real people too. ): I'm a natural DD/DDD.
ah, sorry. I didn't mean it to come off quite like that. :) I was trying to compare the old standard to the current standard of photoshop and plastic surgery and all this craziness and left out that sentence. I should read over my comments before I click "submit"! sorry.
No problem, no harm done! (:
I've been flat chested and overly thin and bony all my life. I hope that I'm real enough despite all that.
thank you...and i'm glad you liked it
Whether or not he was influenced by society or otherwise, good on you for coming to the conclusion that he's not worth your time. He really isn't, if he's valuing your appearance over all your abundant good traits.
I'm sorry you were hurt.
Our social environment does do a lot to suggest to people what the 'most attractive traits' are ... and most people don't fit the stereotype. Fortunately, individual men and individual women tend to have a much wider range of appearances that they find appealing.
It's too bad this guy wasn't able to see you for all of your important qualities, rather than appearance alone. In time, I hope you will find someone who has the qualities you admire who is looking for someone exactly like you.
I'm sorry you had to go through this, but it sounds like you really dodged a bullet there. He doesn't sound like boyfriend material.
Here's my 2 cents:
I have two chronic illnesses and used to have an eating disorder. My weight has fluctuated wildly.
When I'm thin, I'm conventionally pretty. When I'm not thin, well, I'm not....
And let me tell you, even during my 'pretty' phase, I have friends who were plumper than me, perhaps not quite as 'conventionally pretty' as me, and yet always got much more dates and attention and also love than me.
Why? They are lovely, charming, engaging, attractive, and overall wonderful to be around, and they radiate this positive energy. I, on the other hand, am extremely insecure, and have major trust issues, and would never, say, flirt with someone I don't know well and trust.
I really think that at the end it's your personality that matters. The problem is that it's not always so easy to let it shine...
I would not be surprised at all if that was the real reason. My boyfriend once told me that when he was dating his ex his (extremely horrible and misogynistic, ex-all-boys-school) friends kept telling him about how she wasn't pretty enough. In my opinion she was very pretty (pretty enough for a jealousy phase when I ran into her) but not conventionally so (read: didn't wear makeup or do anything fancy with her hair and wore glasses).
The good thing is at least he shows his true colours early on. The best thing is that there are people out there who don't care what their "friends" or the patriarchy thinks and that if they think a girl is attractive will date and think she's awesome anyway.
I'm not sure how common it is with women but I have heard often enough from males that their friends' opinion on a woman's appearance matters. It's like that stupid joke. How are fat girls and mopeds alike? They are both fun to ride but you wouldn't want your friends to find out.
Oh, some of my guy friends have told me it's very important. Up to a point though. Eventually most people (women too) grow up and stop looking for outside approval from their buddies.
A lot of guys don't want to admit it, because it's easier to tell the story about them being simple and "logical" and women being the complicated ones.
But what they don't mention is that fact that men are emotionally complex creatures full of insecurity and self doubt just like everybody else. Which is why they need the approval of their buddies and to maintain status among their peers at least for a while.
J-
I just wanted to say that you are an amazing and beautiful woman, even if you are not married or in a relationship. We are taught by our materilistic society that we must be married (or close to it) to be worth wild. And that just is not true.
You may not be "beautiful" by conventional definitions, but I hope that you believe that you are beautiful. If you don't, you let patriarch win one of the battles that we can fight ourselves. I'm not saying it is an easy thing to believe, especially considering the way we are accosted on a daily basis by ads, telling us otherwise. But it is true.
If you didn't say much in response last night to this guy (getting blindsided like that makes the most articulate person speechless) think about going back to him and telling him how you feel. Tell him everything that you have expressed here. And tell him that you are a beautiful woman, and it makes you really sad that he is blinded by his own materialism to see it. You may not be able to do this right away, but he may never know how indoctrinated in patriarchy he is if no one ever points it out to him. Our biggest adversaries (in my opinion) are not the blatant misogynists/sexists, but the people who think they are forward thinking and pro-women or even feminist, but in reality act pretty much the same way as the misogynists/sexists.
I do hope this helps :)
that's really good advice actually, i appreciate it.
i am very articulate and outspoken, but last night the most i could think to do was push him and call him a deuche bag...juvelnile, yes but it me feel better.
Many, many women (perhaps "most," perhaps not, but certainly many) have physical appearance as a significant factor as to what men they are and are not attracted to. Is this because they are "influenced by the patriarchy"? If not, what are they "influenced by" that makes them be more or less attracted to men based on their looks? And when a woman turns down a man who wants to date her who she likes as a person but isn't particularly attracted to (certainly not a rare or bizarre situation), is she being as much as a douche to him as the guy in the above anecdote is apparently is?
. . . uh, what I'm trying to say, it's not good for anyone's feelings when they discover someone they're attracted to isn't attracted to them, but I'm not sure I see what it has to do with how "feminist" the person in question is.
I agree, iremo. People are attracted to different types, and while societal ideals may affect that, it likely is not merely a question of being or not being feminist enough. There are many guys who I don't find attractive even though they have excellent qualities.
I think the difference here is that there isn't *one* standard of attractiveness when it comes to men as there is for women.
We can't really know what this particular guy is thinking, but there are many men who are heavily influenced by the beauty ideal and as one poster pointed out above, by their friends. This does become an issue of feminism.
In fact, if some women are just as influenced by looks as some men are, this is still a feminist issue because what constitutes good looking is socially constructed.
@JDizzle1688 - you sound like someone I wish I knew. I enjoyed reading your post and really identified with it and with you. Forget this guy, if he cannot look past your looks he isn't worth it. BTW I'm betting that you are beautiful, but that you need to believe this for yourself :) Keep strong, someone will come along who values you for who you are.
I think the problem was the way he expressed himself.
he didn't say, sorry, I'm not attracted to you. that would have been a way of expressing his feelings. instead, he made a universal statement saying, sorry, you are not pretty enough.
there is a huge difference.
I disagree. He was obviously interested in her but then something changed suddenly. If he hadn't been attracted to her first then why got to all that trouble?
I don't think anyone is debating that women care less about looks than men but that men can be influenced by the patriarchal "ideal" woman and that this factors into their choice of partner.
It is definitely possible to like someone as a friend, even quite strongly, and still not be interested in them as a romantic/sexual partner.
I have, as a straight man, had lots of male friends who I enjoyed socialising with, thought highly of, et cetera, but would never want to date. I have had a smaller number of female friends who meet the same description, though they are certainly a non-zero number. Sometimes people just will not do it for you (and this will apply regardless of what appearance(s) appeal to you - certainly the women I have been attracted to are not generally what is touted around here as the "societal ideal", but it does not mean that my nonplatonic interests are totally uncorrelated with appearance, either).
I would not worry too much. Yeah, it sucks when you are attracted to someone and they just do not like you that way, but it happens. Regardless of how much or how little a person's attraction is influenced by society, there will always be some people who just do not do it for them.
I really don't want to defend him, but he kinda sounds like me. I certainly self identify as feminist, and I certainly think that physical beauty is WAY over valued for women in society. However I still find myself feeling distinctly unattracted to certain women based on just that. It makes me feel guilty for being shallow. I can't help but wonder how much of an effect the media images and societal standards I disdain are having on me. I can't force myself to feel attracted to these women, any more than a lesbian could force herself to be attracted to me. I guess the difference is that I also feel attracted to personality traits, and at least I recognize my hypocrisy.
There's a difference though between not finding certain people attraactive and only finding the patriarchal "ideal" woman attractive and I think in this case he crossed that line.
Judging from your post, it sounds like you're still fairly young. And, I just want to add, that I think (and have read in various places) that young men are especially susceptible to society's standards of beauty. Physically, they might find women attractive who vary from this standard, but they are uncomfortable with acknowledging this, and are fearful of the judgment of their peers. As they grow older, and are more comfortable acknowledging their own desires, they're more opening to dating women who they are actually attracted to, rather than looking for women that society tells them are attractive. So, although this guy is essentially shallow, or a coward, don't think that this means you're going to always be alone. If only 'patriarchy says you're hot' people were able to successfully have relationships, the world would be a very dismal place (although, population growth would be less of an issue). If it's simply because he doesn't feel a 'spark', perhaps he should have said something like, "You're a very beautiful woman, but, unfortunately, the chemistry is just not quite right"?
Although, societal attitudes can be very hard to move past. Personal story of shame: I first met my current partner many years ago... at the time, I was fairly overweight, wore excessively baggy and plain clothes, bad teeth, bad skin, and a horrible haircut, and wished I was from a Muslim culture so it would be acceptable to cover up more. Anyway, he claims that, when he first saw me, he was attracted to me, because, apparently, I looked like the girl he had always imagined. My shallow self, on the other hand, completely dismissed (what I saw as) the tubby, loud guy with a buzzcut and glasses and orange shirts who was always around ... and it wasn't till years later that I realized how attractive I found him. Anyway, I'm ashamed that I was that shallow; maturity and growth are possible.
It is ridiculous sometimes, how people who will proclaim feminist viewpoints in matters of debate will ultimately fail to uphold these viewpoints in real life situations. I once had a boyfriend (who loudly identified as feminist) tell me, "you should give up dairy, because then you'd lose twenty pounds and then be really hot". And I kind of like my dairy bloated ass and thighs.
Your attitude is definitely in the right spot, and I hope things improve for you soon!
Good for you for being smart about this! I dated someone who specifically dumped me because I wasn't girly enough. So he thought I was attractive enough to go out with and to fuck, but when he realized I wasn't going to bow to his little manipulations, he dumped me. And I always wondered why he didn't want me to meet his mom, lol.
He did finally attempt to redeem himself by showing up on my doorstep late to apologize---which in hindsight, who does that these days? And actually looking back, I can see that he actually did me a favor; otherwise, I would have wasted more time with him.
I'm going to say that one of the most fabulous and famous people I know is on the fat side. She's super proud of being the size she is, and she's a legit rockstar (as in she's toured with rockbands - playing with them - and has dated people who are household names). The woman also gets the most dates of anyone I've ever known, and everyone loves her because she's hilarious. If people are going to judge you and be shallow, then there's nothing you can do about it.
As someone who had an eating disorder and still struggles with my body image, it does feel crappy when that cute, funny boy just isn't into you. It also feels crappy when you and your cute, outgoing friend are meeting people, and because she's the type of person to demand to be the center of attention, you get ignored by the guy you're trying to flirt with. It's equally as crappy to realize that the guy you liked might have decided not to waste his time with you because he thought you were a slut and too good to waste your time with him. You at least seem to have one thing down, which, honestly, most girls do not know how to do: you are *friends* with guys. You are friends with guys beyond the need to date said guys. Trust me, being friends with guys, while it may make you feel like 'just a friend girl,' will help you to expand your social circle and teach you to value people so you're not always one of those girls who meets guys with the automatic intention to date them. There are girls I know who are super desperate and just throw themselves at every guy they meet, and if guy is friendly, they immediately think about dating them. Being open and available to everyone I meet, reguardless of their gender, has helped me come out of my bubble and lead a social life that has been more fulfilling to me. If you're happy and fulfilled with your life, people will find that attractive, and walking on egg shells and trying to be 'perfect' or 'effortlessly witty' around people is no way to live life.
Oh, dear.
Good for you for recognizing that it is his problem, and not yours.
However...as someone who was fairly "conventionally pretty" 15 years and 2 kids ago, I do have to say that everyone gets this. I had guy friends who I totally clicked with, who I spent tons of time with, who told me they just weren't attracted to me.
I'm sure there are also assholes out there who are that shallow, but sometimes it is just a matter of personal chemistry. You'll probably never know which is the case with this guy. But some day, you'll meet someone where the chemistry will work, and you will be the most beautiful woman in his eyes.
Sorry to hear about your travails.
But good for you if you can rationalise things; if it helps you get over the pain, then good.
If I can add my little piece, you might be interested to know that we men also suffer such slings and arrows: we are also aware that not all our features are valued sufficiently.
In fact, ask yourself this question: given a choice, would (most) men choose to be intelligent and smart, or tall and handsome?
Most will say tall and handsome. And why? Because they know that women prefer tall and handsome men.
That is not fair to those of us who are neither, but we try to move on.
Good luck in your quest!
I'm afraid I have to say something along the line of Quinc's comment; I am somewhat familiar with this situation, and I realize it's utter crap. On the one hand, I know absolutely that ideals of beauty are socially constructed; using anglo society as an example, a few hundred years ago a healthier weight was a sign of prestige and wealth, and considered very attractive. Now... not so much in mainstream depictions. And while I am attracted to some women who don't fit conventional stereotypes of beauty (and some who do fit those stereotypes kind of horrify me), I can't say much encouraging at this juncture.
I was in a relationship once where I took the other path, I enjoyed someone's company and we were dating, but after a few months I realized there really wasn't much chemistry, and that more than anything was the reason the relationship ended, when we realized we were just friends, if that. And I've personally decided never to do that again, to risk leading someone on if I'm not sure that I'm interested physically on some level. So if the person in question was just being honest about that, he may have saved you some trouble. If he said all that because he feared social repercussions, he's just being an ass.
Argh. Contradictions. I'm sorry for relationship-fail-ness. :(
most of my lady friends are married or in committed relationships.
However all of my lady friends are quite attractive.
Does this make my espoused feminist worldview hypocritical?