A year ago if you asked me if I would commend Oprah for anything, much less for defending feminist viewpoints in the face of conventional social disapproval...well, I'd have to shrug because in all my life I had never watched an Oprah show.
A schedule change over the past year made it so that her show was on during the exact time I was home and awake. So I watched. I watch.
And became interested in this woman who, yes, is very accepting of a number of problematic things: extreme consumerism; American ignorance of non-Western societies; reification of essentialized gender; Steve Harvey's relationship advice (need I say more?), BUT, who is also, I feel, moving incrementally toward the humanist light.
Last night and today, her two shows combined constitute a "Shocking Oprah Sex-Ed Win."
It was shocking because she took a powerful humanist stance, called out members of her own audience and her own friends on their sexism, fought with her friends on national TV, and stuck by her sex-ed guns in the face of others' conventional social disapproval.
Here's what went down**:
Last night, her sex-ed expert, Dr. Laura Berman, was teaching the audience about how to teach their kids about sex. She recommended a number of things, including that women should teach their 15 year old daughters about the benefits of masturbation, and that things such as vibrators are a-okay to explore with.
The audience reacted negatively, with women shaking their heads and standing up to tell her off.
But Oprah stepped in to say: "Why do you think knowing about masturbation is wrong?"
A very young Afr-Am woman [possibly teen] audience member began railing against Dr. Berman, saying, "it sounds like she [Dr. berman] goes home and [masturbates] every day."
Dr. B and Oprah said, "Yes? And? That's a bad thing... why?"
Another audience member, this time a blonde Euro-Am mother in her early forties, said urgently, "But, Oprah, where's the SELF-CONTROL? Teaching your kids to touch themselves whenever nature calls is tying them to their urges and teaches them they don't have to use willpower."
[Cut to commercial. DAMN, wanted to hear Oprah's answer]
[back from break]
Oprah: "I think you all missed something very important in what Dr.Berman's talking about. If you think about it, a girl who masturbates and learns about pleasure on her own will be far less likely to get swept up in the moment and to idolize or cling to the first guy who comes along who gives her those feelings. She'll realize that it's not HIM that gives that to her, but that it's her own body's reaction that she's already enjoyed on her own, and that she doesn't have to be beholden to him."
Gayle King, best friend and mag editor: I just can't get behind this, Oprah [shaking her head and throwing up her hands, tsk-tsking ] "it's just too much information" [TMI about their OWN BODIES, Gayle? Is that even possible?].
The show ended.
Today's show was a live group talk session similar to THE VIEW's format--a roundtable with Oprah, Gayle, a blonde actress/comedian, and a generally useless man who's apparently there to be a male prop.
Gayle released a stream of negativity about last night's show that, based on her hints about her childhood, seem to suggest a deeply troubled experience with sexuality. I feel for her, but do not agree with her insistence that telling DAUGHTERS (she kept saying "daughters") about masturbation was unacceptable.
My new friend Oprah stepped in and argued, "Wait, do you think the same thing about boys?"
Gayle: "Boys is a different matter."
Oprah: Why?
Gayle: Because there's a difference. Boys are naturally [insert gender essentialist/evo-biological party line about that famously uncontrollable male "hard-wiring" for sex].
Oprah: But there's NOT a difference, Gayle. Girls and boys BOTH should know about their bodies and what gives them pleasure.
Gayle: Oprah, you just will not get me to agree with you. Teaching teen girls about masturbation is too much, too adult. They shouldn't know this much about sex.
Oprah: THEY'RE ALREADY DOING IT, GAIL. And teaching them about giving themselves pleasure is NOT the same thing as telling them to go have sex with boys. If anything, as Dr. Berman suggested, it's KEEPING girls from getting swept up in the moment and putting all their self-esteem in some guy.
Male panelist: Well, this whole thing freaks me out because it's teaching women that men are redundant and that vibrators can replace us.
All other panelists: [Ignore him].
***All quotes are paraphrases created by me.
0 TrackBacks
Listed below are links to blogs that reference this entry: Good on you, Oprah.
TrackBack URL for this entry: http://www.feministing.com/cgi-bin/movabletype/mt-tb.fcgi/13016
Oh, it was getting good, it just ended there? *hunts for transcript*
"But, Oprah, where's the SELF-CONTROL? Teaching your kids to touch themselves whenever nature calls is tying them to their urges and teaches them they don't have to use willpower."
Little kids, like two- and three-year-olds, frequently masturbate. They're very interested in their private parts at this time. They look at them while they go to the bathroom, and they often have their hands down their pants in public. They might get naked in front of their friends of both sexes. It's normal. It's expected. And I don't think girls necessarily learn that boys have penises and girls have vaginas, and vice versa. I think this knowledge is innate when the child reaches a certain age. Kids eventually learn that playing with their genitals isn't the acceptable thing to do in public and that those sorts of things are best done in private. So that lady in the audience is seriously misinformed. No one who is sane masturbates whenever the urge arrives (as if those urges just pop up at any time before and after puberty). They do it in the shower or in their bedrooms -- private places.
2 and 3 year olds aren't masturbating
"As to the effects of masturbation, masturbation appears to be a common experience in normal and healthy infants and children." (p.31)
"Masturbation is reconnized as a tension reliever and is often observed among nursery school children." (p. 28)
"Levine reported on a 3-year old boy who would masturbate vigorously." (p. 28)
"Three year old children have also been observed to masturbate as an expression of delight, and not when tired, stressed, or unhappy." (p. 28)
from
The sexual life of children
By Floyd Mansfield Martinson (citing several studies from the past 50 years, including Levine's, Kinsey's, and Ramsey's).
http://books.google.com/books?id=-ym-Zjn9-zQC&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=children+masturbation+studies&source=bl&ots=kyxtvp5Q6J&sig=jhdEvRWkflBTTYCRCMT5QNcqiM4&hl=en&ei=gPzgSeiTBJHglQe52rTgDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8#PPA30,M1
Yes, they are. Playing with your genitals for pleasure is masturbation. There doesn't need to be a sexual fantasy involved for it to be masturbation, which I think is what you were getting at.
(Possible TMI ahead?)
I know for sure I was doing it at 4. I actually stretched out one of my inner labia because it felt so nice to tug on it. It's about twice as long as the other one. I don't remember actually starting, so I assume it was sometime earlier than that.
Your labia probably grew that way naturally, and it is probably coincidence that the longer labium is the side you like to masturbate on. Many, possibly most, women have asymmetric labia. They are like breasts, arms, and legs that way.
I know labia can grow asymmetrically, but I would be very surprised if they were completely unrelated. Women in different cultures (and some in ours) intentionally stretch out their labia by pulling on them, so it's not like they're unstretchable. And I pulled on them a lot, and regularly, for several years. I'm not complaining, if you're saying that to take some pressure off me. My vulva might not be porn-approved but it's mine. :]
HA! I was. And mostly every person, EVER. In all honesty, I don't ever remember a time where I DIDN'T masturbate.
yes, they are.
I really wanted to hear Oprah or Dr. Berman's response to this, because I got the feeling that the woman making the statement was almost getting beyond the immediate point of physical masturbation (although to be sure, she likely didn't want her kids masturbating in the back seat of a car trip).
Her tone and word choice really smacked to me of what I heard growing up in fundamentalist Southern Baptist churches--the idea that, as humans, we are separated from other animals because of noble attributes like Free Will and Reason and Spirit, and that frequent concessions to the carnal--whether the sexual or anything else-- are dehumanizing. The idea was that there is nobility in cultivating a mind and spirit that can be separate frmo the body's urges.
This idea seems very similar to me to the Gnostic (first few centuries after Christ; non-canonical; Greek-influenced) body-mind dichotomy. This is interesting, because there is so much Gnostic-type stuff that far-right American Protestants REJECT.
Rachel_In_WY might also have insight into the non-Christian Greek background here.
Christianity gets a lot of stuff out of Greek philosophical religion, which says the body is secondary to the mind (which gets translated to the soul in Christianity). The reason many "gnostic" sects (lots of scholars don't use the word much anymore because it's become too broad to actually define anything) reject the body is because of that Platonic background. The more extreme sects believed the body was a prison with absolutely no redeemable qualities, and pleasures of the body kept you attached to your prison.
Because orthodox Christianity owes a lot to Plato, there's the same mistrust of the body and bodily passions, but the theology even in the 3rd century was radically different from, say, Sethian Gnostic theology, so it's not really weird that modern right-wing Christians would reject it.
Also, Christianity developed this idea that your body belongs to God, not to you, and so to do anything other than sanctioned marital sex is to defile someone else's property.
I'm glad you specified Plato. Not all Greek Philosophers share the same philosophy.
"Male panelist: Well, this whole thing freaks me out because it's teaching women that men are redundant and that vibrators can replace us."
But I bet this guy has never, ever looked at porn. No, siree. I feel kind of bad for him, though, if the only thing of value he can offer a woman is his penis. That would be pretty depressing.
How's this for unintentional irony: he proudly told the audience, twice, that when he was a teen, he would be "in the bathroom for 3 hours [masturbating]."
Thanks for that trip down hypocrisy lane, "Mark"!
That probably is not quite right. But if he thinks that men need women while women do not need men, whether or not they might enjoy men, it should be quite understandable that he is threatened.
Heck, articulating it that way, I feel threatened.
Here I mean "need" as "need to have a fulfilling sex life", but one might reasonably substitute other things too, to provide a wider context; "need to have a family" or whatnot.
LOL at the dude who thought that a vibe or dildo can replace a real penis. So maybe I should be threatened by my boyfriends hands, since they might replace me?
But seriously. TMI about your own body? I mean, Jesus Christ, I understand prudishness is needed sometimes, but this? Masturbation is the safest sex anyone can have, and it's only bad if it keeps you from functioning in everyday life. This happens to men more than women, and yet it's women who are the ones who shouldn't be masturbating. Backwards, isn't it?
Oh, and I've been masturbating since I was 3 or 4. I didn't know what it was til I was like, 10 or 11. That's when I stopped doing it in front of people. But I supposed that is TMI for realz...
Not TMI. Humans are sexual and the less that is ignored, the better.
A very young Afr-Am woman [possibly teen] audience member began railing against Dr. Berman, saying, "it sounds like she [Dr. berman] goes home and [masturbates] every day."
This response is particularly funny to me: I often find that after I espouse a view that is unpopular with a group, they'll often attempt an "ad hominem" attack to discredit me by accusing me of precisely the behavior I just argued for. It suggests a difficulty in my opponents to even process the idea that I might be operating under an alternative value system than they are.
-----
"And so I think that chivalry is outdated and condescending. Politeness should go both directions."
"Yeah, and I bet you're the kind of guy who lets your girlfriend pay for dates sometimes."
"Umm... yes. Sometimes, yes, that would make sense."
Gayle: Because there's a difference. Boys are naturally [insert gender essentialist/evo-biological party line about that famously uncontrollable male "hard-wiring" for sex]
It makes me CRAZY whenever someone spouts one of those "hard-wiring" ignorant comments about boys vs. girls.
So, she thinks that teaching boys about sex is great, but teaching girls is bad? Wow. I hope this woman does not have any influence on young people -- girls OR boys.
{Shakes head}
These arguments drive me nuts, too. Even if it was true that boys are more prone to masturbation (don't think so!), and that masturbation was bad (definitely not!), the conclusion makes no sense. If boys are an 'at-risk' group for engaging in any horrible, awful, sinful activity, shouldn't we be focusing our resources on making sure THEY stay off the wagon? According to this line of reasoning, we should be giving welfare to the wealthy and abandoning the poor, since they're apparently hopeless. We need affirmative action for hetero white guys, too.
Wow. Hot, damn. Oprah is back in my good graces.
What is up with us Americans!! Remember Surgeon Gen. Joycelyn Elders getting canned for speaking about masturbation? We haven't come any further since then. So frustrating.
It's amazing but it seems to be consistent. I understand the US fervour for (male) circumcision comes from the same notion. Stop those teenage boys getting hairy palms! ;-)
I know, right? Don't you live in Italy, now? What do you find to be the local sentiment about masturbation (generally) or sex-ed to teens?
Ya know, Italy is oddly liberal on some sexuality aspects and conservative on others.
Apparently they only started formal sex ed in 1999! I asked by SO if he had any kind of sex ed and he vaguely remembers someone from an outside organization giving a "talk" at his school. I think, in general, topics like masturbation are going to be covered at home.
When it comes to sexuality, I have found most Italians, even religious folk, to be pragmatic: for example my Italian friends are shocked when I explain that some American schools teach abstinence-only sex ed and creationism.
In social life the norm is to live together (married or not) even if it means shacking up at your mom's house--for real. Families are tight nit and parents know what's up. Teen sexuality is just a reality.
The areas where Italy is clearly more conservative than the US is on abortion (obvious) and alcohol. For example, is not socially acceptable to be shit-faced drunk to increase one's odds of hooking up---but I hear that this is changing.
Whew! So I guess that sort of a simplified explanation of a few social aspects--just to give you an idea.
yikes, sorry for the typos.
Yeah, I can imagine that. In Italy I saw overweight people in bikinis and speedos. I thought it was nice they don't seem shamed into wearing one pieces. PDA seemed more acceptable too.
But from the Italians I've talked to it seems living together with your S.O. before marriage is not a good idea.
I'm sure it depends on what part of Italy people are coming from. I've been told that the southern part of the country is more traditional. My Italian side of the family and our circle of friends are mostly born and raised in the north, so I'm going off how they are living their lives and what they tell me.
I think what pushed the issue though was economics: houses in the city are expensive (renting isn't so popular) so it's more practical to share resources and move in together. The choice is often to either stay at home with mom and dad or shack up if you happen to be in a stable relationship.
Another thing is that if you look at the divorce stats, Italy looks like it has a low divorce rate. But what the stats don't say is that many long-term couples simply never get married--especially in the last decade or so.
Sometimes things are frowned upon, but it's still not necessarily an indicator of how many people still do it. For example, my SO's mom keeps asking when we are going to get married in a church "the proper way," lol. Apparently city hall doesn't count. We just smile.
I'm always shocked at how much people seem to disapprove of masturbation. Oprah's point in favor is right on. Plus, it's 100% safe sex. Basically free orgasms. Plus it just helps so much to know how everything works and what you like when you do eventually have sex with someone else.
I don't think it's necessary for parents to explain it to kids though. This is kinda how I feel about sex in general. I can see why parents might not want to talk about sex with their own kids. Sure, it's ok if you want to. But aren't most kids going to discover masturbation on their own at some point? I feel like if you have the urge to masturbate you will, and if you don't have sexual desires, they way force someone too? I think there is too much pressure on people that they have to be sexual, when in reality, people vary in their desire for sex and the times in their lives when they have different sexual experiences.
As long as parents don't DIScourage it or expose their kids to people like the Oprah audience or the Catholic church, that's all good. As long girls know it's not a BAD thing if they feel like doing it.
But if not the parents then who?
Part of the problem is that a lot of kids really don't get to discover things on their own, because they are inundated with exaggerated self-serving 'entertainment' fantasy and right wing religious mythology. Why not just give kids facts and age appropriate advice to keep them safe and sane?
When we as a country decided to sit back and let dollar bills be the principal driver of sexual expression, this is what becomes the de facto sex education for a lot of kids because they aren't hearing any reasonable, rational messages from anybody else.
Adults have f*cked up big time on this one---big time.
I can understand why parents would feel weird talking about it. But if I felt weird about it as a parent (hopefully not) or if I thought my kid felt weird talking about it, perhaps my kid would feel more comfortable talking to an aunt or older cousin about it. Someone that I trust to give them accurate positive information.
It amazes me how negatively people react toward hearing about self-pleasure though. Do none of those audience members who answered questions do it? Well, maybe they don't or maybe not till they were adults but those responses...aliens from another planet would be very surprised if they had only seen our media and music videos. Is this 100 years ago?
Yeah, I think if you feel it's necessary for your child, but don't want to discuss it yourself, having someone else appropriate do it is good. I really responded to science as a kid, so I think if a doctor or something had explained this stuff to me I would have liked it. Depends on the kid.
But maybe I just feel this way because my parents never mentioned sex to me once in my entire life, but I turned out pretty healthy sex-wise. I discovered masturbation when I was 16 - I had an orgasm WITHOUT masturbating once and then wanted to keep doing it and make it better! I feel like these things sort of come naturally to people, when they are supposed to come. For some women that could be age 9, for others it could 25, etc. If you have a rule of sorts that you have talk to your daughter at a certain age about it, it's assume that they are 1) at that point and 2) that sexuality is important to them. I don't know I just feel bad for people who aren't interested in sex because there is this standard that EVERYONE has to be sexual in some way.
I wonder if those audience members who commented do actually do it...I thought everyone did, but then I learned that some of my friends actually don't! I remember once in college I discussed it with my roommate and she was SHOCKED to learn that I masturbated and had been for a number of years. I was like, "why don't you do it?" and she was like, "well yeah, but I can't believe that YOU do!"
It's true not everyone's sexual at the same time. I think if parents don't want to begin the conversations with their kids, there are kids appropriate books and websites out there that you can tell kids to use when they are curious.
I have to wonder to what extent my sexuality has been affected by the culture I grew up in. I think I explored my body less than most when growing up and if I had know what masturbation meant I might have explored more and at a younger age. If I had known what orgasms were at a younger age, I might have tried to give myself one at a younger age. So for those who aren't as naturally curious or who take more stimulation to orgasm and thus don't orgasm unless they mean to, the start of being more sexual can be affected by amount of knowledge. Which sadly is what some parents are afraid of. Lack of knowledge is probably partly why I know 20 year olds who don't masturbate ever. There are women who think masturbating has to involve the vagina. I used to think that too.
"I feel like if you have the urge to masturbate you will, and if you don't have sexual desires, they way force someone too? I think there is too much pressure on people that they have to be sexual, when in reality, people vary in their desire for sex and the times in their lives when they have different sexual experiences."
Giving a teenager a driver's manual doesn't really pressure them to drive a car, but when they do decide they want to drive they're going to have a much easier time when they first get behind the wheel. Okay, corny example, I admit it.
Let's put it this way, until I was about 14 most of my masturbation related sex ed consisted of 4 things:
1) vague statements that masturbation was normal and not bad for you
2) diagrams of male & female anatomy (the clitoris was labeled but never talked about)
3) talk about boys having wet dreams and getting erections at embarrassing times
and 4) (outside of class) urban legends about girls sticking hot dogs up their vagina and losing them
Until I was 14 I didn't really understand that girls masturbated too, or that female masturbation could consist of something other than penetration with foreign objects. In actual fact I'd been masturbating since I was a little kid (though not to orgasm) I just didn't realize that that was what I was doing since I'd been engaging in rather aimless external stimulation. Female sexual desire when it was spoken of was always in the context of two-person hetero activities or else portrayed as perverse and disastrous acts of penetration.
I'm really glad someone finally gave me a "driver's manual" because I became much more accepting of the female body and female sexuality, and um frankly...a much better "driver".
i don't think parents need to teaacccchhh teach their children how to masterbate but a quick "hey loads of people do it, don't let the overwhelming shame you feel (courtesy of society's sexist views) get you down. oh, and sweetie, do you need any sex toys while i'm getting some milk?" is nice
Oh! Oh!
:: Jumping up in my seat like Hermione ::
They re-ran the roundtable episode late last night and Oprah had a GREAT line I missed during my first write-up:
[paraphrase]
OPRAH: [visibly agitated after Live TV confrontation with Gayle] Audience, people at home, panelists---take a step back and look at what's going on here. We are not talking about [ticks them off on her hands] Guns. We're not talking about Drugs, Underage Alcohol, Gangs, or anything else, and yet THERE IS OUTRAGE AMONGST YOU OVER PEOPLE TOUCHING THEIR OWN BODIES. That's it! Touching. Their. Bodies. And you react with more fury than if I suggested you tell your kids to try drugs. What's wrong with this picture? Think about it.
[last shot of rountable before break reveals an amused blonde panelist, exasperated looking male panelist--he was the one who sided with gayle, remember--and Gayle herself STILL shaking her head and tsk-tsking].
Really, Oprah, I could not have said it much better myself.
You should edit that in to your original post. It's the best bit, I think.
I still totally think Oprah's an idiot ("the Secret", I mean WTF?!) but she's certainly got the message on this one. And she's probably the right person to broadcast it.
How does the editing feature work?
As I listed in my OP, she gets quite a few things "wrong" (from my personal humanist standpoint, which is not the universal standard, you understand), and yet, I continue to watch her because she is getting more and more right, too. I am really enjoying watching her "slowly move toward the humanist light." Sometimes it's one step forward and two steps back, but that's what what makes it interesting to watch, IMO.
And when she does take a step forward, you can almost see her taking mainstream America along with her.
PERFECT!
THERE IS OUTRAGE AMONGST YOU OVER PEOPLE TOUCHING THEIR OWN BODIES
I wear gloves at all times to prevent just this occurrence.
I'm so glad you posted about this! I watched this episode and I was very impressed as a feminist, that this type of stuff was on cable TV.
I was SO FUCKING PISSED at how everyone was okay with the sex talk at 10, but the masturbation topic wasn't appropriate until 16?? SIXTEEN YEARS OLD? Good god, I'd probably used every goddamn stuffed animal, vibrating toothbrush and/or phallic looking object as a masturbatory tool in my house by the age of 16.
Also, that audience member saying that giving a young girl a vibrator is like giving a young boy porn. UMMMM no. Porn is psychological. A vibrator is physical, like fingers only faster.
But HUGE kudos to Dr. Laura Berman and Oprah for talking about this.
It was on basic network, not cable (that you have to buy) TV.
ABC (channel 7 here)
I'm glad it was responded to as it was, that will heighten the interest for any girl who was watching. The smart ones will educate themselves (as is usually the case).
I remember when I was about 11 and my mom gave ME the sex talk. She very specifically told me that "playing with yourself" was bad. But, alas! I had already begun masturbating occasionally. For about a year after "the talk" I felt really guilty about masturbating, to the point where I was convinced that I was going to hell. It was explained to me that masturbation is wrong because it is "Full sexual arousal without having sex."
But, wait, isn't that what makes it awesome? And PERFECT for teens who might not be able to handle being sexually active with someone else?
I am thankful that my personal beliefs about self pleasure have improved, but am totally shocked that grown women would argue against the health and happiness that comes with getting yourself off! I am shocked when I hear about women my age who are pre-orgasmic. Then I remember that not all women feel they have the freedom to touch their own bodies. It's all part of living in a male dominated society.
Its hilarious how many people are upset because of young women touching themselves! I've been masturbating since I was 11, and I never thought it was wrong or weird, so seeing this is just strange. Is it mostly religious people who are against this? Because I can't find any rational reason for hating on this.
I think a big part of it is religion. A lot of people think it is sinful to "give in" to sexual urges.
My boyfriends mom is hardcore catholic, and once she walked in on him masturbating when he was a teen and she was outraged and completely convinced he is going to hell. What a traumatic experience for a little boy.
It's terrible. What's organized religion good for again? Oh yeah, nothing.