So I wouldn't really consider myself a feminist but I have a very close friend who is. I have been having some issues at work and she recommended that I post something on here because she said it would make me feel better so here it goes...
I have been working the same job for 4 years. I recently switched shifts, but not positions. I went from evening shift to day shift at the begining of this week. I now work with 2 men. These 2 men have worked together for probably close to 20 years. They very obviously do not want me there. It isn't necessarily that they are harassing me or even being mean to me, they won't even give me the time of day. Everything I do they do over, if I ask if something has been done they say yes even if it hasn't been just because they don't want me doing it, I will say something then they will say it 5 minutes later like I never pointed it out earlier. They think I am a complete idiot!!
I have 2 bosses, one male one female. My female boss is very supportive and is doing everything she can to help my situation but they just talk down to her too when she tries to help me out. I have been in my main boss' office, the male, 3 times in my 4 days on this shift. He has told me that these 2 men are "just very old fashioned." That they are not used to working with a woman and that I just need to let them know that I am not going anywhere and that they need to learn to work with me. He is the boss, why can he not fix this problem??? Why is it even a problem? I have been doing this job for 4 years, I am not an idiot and I don't deserve to be talked down to everyday. It is making me miserable. I considered going back to my old shift but that is exactly what they want, then they win. I shouldn't have to go to work and defend my position everyday because they are "old fashioned" and don't like working with a woman. I am just as good at my job, if not better, then they are. They just won't give me the chance to prove it. It's wearing me down...and it's only been 4 days.
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Your bosses should have a talk with them.
"I am just as good at my job, if not better, then they are. They just won't give me the chance to prove it."
Why won't you call yourself a feminist if this is what you believe? This *is* what a feminist looks like--you.
You didn't say where you are, but if you're in the US, this is what is called a "toxic work environment" and it is legally actionable. if your boss won't fix this, contact the EEOC and/or the ACLU. Bosses tend to jump when lawsuits are mentioned but first, try to get documentation of your previous complaints and performance reviews so you can prove they have been ignored and to protect yourself from vindictive firing.
The lawsuit road is a last resort - basically, you should only sue if you are prepared to leave the job and never work there again.
Companies hate whistleblowers - and they can and do fire them.
Unless your bosses are idiots, they won't fire you for suing.
They WILL fire you for some minor rule violation - even if it's a rule that everybody else breaks and that nobody ever gets disciplined for.
They will be wrong, it will be illegal retaliation, your lawyer will be able to prove it and you will win your lawsuit.
Five years later.
You'll get back pay, and they will never let you work there ever again.
So you have a right to sue - but only sue if you are prepared to get fired from your job and never work there ever again - in return for a few thousand dollars to be paid to you 5 years from now.
That's not entirely accurate if you are in the United States suing under Title VII. One of the main objectives for Title VII is reinstatement for an illegal firing. I currently have a professor who works as an attorney for the EEOC, and she discussed many cases that ended in reinstatement.
That's if you want to be reinstated into a position where everyone hates you even more after taking action
The two guys already don't like her. People shouldn't take sexist shit just because they are afraid of getting fired, and they don't have to.
Punchbuggy Green,
In a law school classroom, on paper, you get reinstated if you get illegaly fired in retaliation.
In the ugly real world of labor relations, that doesn't happen.
There are management side labor lawyers who make a lot of money (google Jackson, Lewis or Proskauer Rose, to give two good examples of firms that do this) to advise companies on how to retaliate against whistleblower workers while still saying inside the letter of the law.
I've seen this up close and personal - I've been a shop steward in Carpenters local 608 in New York City for 11 years, and I was a member of the protected class in Cokeley et al vs New York Convention Center Operating Authority et al.
So don't believe everything your professors tell you - and ask some of your fellow students who've been summer associates at firms like Jackson, Lewis or Proskauer, Rose about what corporations REALLY do when sued by their employees.
Bosses will fire you if you sue them - they'll figure out a way to do it legally, and if necessary they'll pay you money to never work there again.
The emphasis here is that clearly you haven't done anything wrong- you're right about that. Your bosses aren't doing their job. They need to pull these two aside like I said above.
If you feel comfortable doing it, I would suggest calling them out to their faces, plainly and directly. Something like, "I know you don't want me here or don't think I'm capable but I've been doing this job for 4 years and I'm not going anywhere," with the only emotion in your voice being mild anger. If that doesn't convince them to stop acting like inconsiderate douchebags, they actually are inconsiderate douchebags and bifemmefatale's advice would probably be the best next step.
Totally agree. It's funny how they behave so passive agressively - wanting you gone but avoiding directly confronting you, instead ignoring you, excluding you and trying to make your shift unpleasant enough that you just leave. Strange for such "old fashioned" men to live up to a stereotype about women...
You should try to document each time you talk to one of your bosses, and then take this to HR. If HR does nothing, then go to an external agency for help. Usually HR will do something, because it's part of their job to prevent the need for external intervention.
Basically, I think this is what your boss is thinking.
He cannot fight your battles for you - if he does, they will only respect you when he's around, and when he's not around, their treatment of you will get even worse.
But if YOU defy these guys, then it's YOUR victory, and they will have to respect you whenever they see you.
It's basically male playground bullshit - but I can tell you, a lot of grown men think that way, especially in all male or mostly male jobs.
So, unfortunately, your boss can't help you here (nor can your union - if you work in a union shop), you have to win this battle yourself.
It's not right, it's not fair, but it's real.
And if you want to continue working with these guys, you're going to have to be assertive with them, and, as your boss said, let them know that you cannot be intimidated and you are there to stay, no matter what anti female prejudices they have.
I'm a Carpenters Union shop steward in New York City, and I know a lot of the men on my jobs don't like working with women and/or are very uncomfortable working with women.
There's a group in NYC that helps women break into construction (and, more importantly, helps them stay in the field in the face of bullshit like your facing).
They're called Nontraditional Employment for Women, and they might have some insight into your situation - here's their contact info:
NEW - Nontraditional Employment for Women
243 West 20th Street
New York, NY 10011
(212) 627-6252
http://www.new-nyc.org/
Also, if you have a union, you should definitely contact them and let them know what's going on - start with your shop steward (who, unfortunately, will also probably be one of the old boys who's been there 20 years - but he's also had to attend a mandated 4 hour sexual harassment awareness class, and if the hazing you're facing gets really bad, the union will blame him for not catching the situation before it blew up, so he'll have to help you)
Good luck!
It seems there are always "old-fashioned" men, regardless of day and age. I mean, it must have been those "old-fashioned men" who was treating women badly 20 years ago. I guess,sadly,there will be those "old fashioned men" 20 years later.
???
After that post....you're not a feminist why again???
Who cares if you label yourself feminist or not? Anyone can call themselves feminist - it's your actions and way of life that matters.
Exactly.
I'm not terrifically invested in whether or not people label themselves as feminists, but I do find it discouraging that so many people buy the mainstream negative definition of feminism and refuse to claim their feminist stance on that basis. I don't call myself a Christian, but it has nothing to do with the Spanish Inquisition or people like Pat Robertson.
I get annoyed by women who come on a feminist site, asking for support from feminists, stating feminist principles, but won't call themselves feminists because...what? We're all icky manhaters?
Maybe if feminists were more concerned with fighting social inequality then getting people to adopt labels, we'd be more successful in our fight against social inequality.
Um, I think we are. The vast majority of posts and comments here have much to do with achieving equality and little to do with getting people to adopt labels. And most of us are active in social justice causes IRL as well.
But there is something a bit disingenuous about asking for help from or benefiting from the work of a group of people with whom you won't identify yourself. I don't know what the OPs reason for this is, but if it is the ol' feminists-are-hairy-humorless-manhaters thing, then bifemmfatale has a strong point.
Most everyone has feminist beliefs but most are afraid of fighting for it because they refuse and are scared to identify as feminist.
We have to adopt a 'label' in order to have a unified movement. Anyways,refusal to do that is just reinforcing sexism and anti-feminist attitudes. Theres nothing wrong with calling oneself a feminist so why do so few people dpo that?
See: !!!Feminist!!!.... No boulders, planes, bombs or sky fell when I said that, so I doubt it will for any other woman too. Honestly, I think for some women identifying as a feminist makes them feel like they are under the lens of an assassinators snipe gun and have to constantly duck and hide for their lives.
Your male boss doesn't care and your female boss is a pushover. Either prove yourself (its only been 4 days, they don't know if you're a good worker yet) or go back to your old shift.
This is a sucky work situation, but probably doesn't rise to a lawsuit level hostile workplace-that's fairly high standard. I think confronting them is the way to go, especially since you've spoken with your boss. If you can figure out a not overly aggressive/emotional/angry way to talk with them, then do so. They're your co-workers, they shouldn't control your life.
That being sad, I'm sorry this is going on, and I hope you realize those people are pretty irrelevant.
If you are in the United States, then at the moment, no, you wouldn't have a hostile work environment claim because you've only been there four days. It is possible you'd have a claim in the future.
HOWEVER, it is REALLY IMPORTANT that you continue to keep your bosses informed about the situation. If it does get worse and you end up filing a claim, then you can only win if your supervisors were aware of the situation and did not adequately address it. And as Rachel in WY mentioned, if you have a human resources department (HR), then it is also necessary that you try to resolve the situation going through their channels.
The only problem is, at the end of the day, HR departments work for management, and their incentive is to make problems like this go away.
The easiest way to make a problem like this go away is to get rid of the woman with 4 years seniority, rather than the two men with 20+ years seniority.
Nobody in the HR department will be stupid enough to actually SAY that - but that's what they will be thinking.
If you have a union, you MIGHT have a chance - but even then, they would tend to be biased towards the men who've worked there for years, and against you.
But, the union has a duty under the National Labor Relations Act to fairly represent you, so they would be less likely to shaft you than management's HR department.
This is true, but if you don't try to resolve the situation with HR first, then you won't have some of the documentation that would really help you in court, and the company's legal representation will try to portray you as a trouble maker who didn't make a good-faith effort to resolve the issue before resorting to legal means.
But you have to remember, HR is not there to help you their job job is to make personnel problems go away - usually by firing the "maladaptive worker".
Guess who'd be the "maladaptive worker" in this case?
In any case, if you have a union, always go to the union first, before you tell anybody from management (and that includes HR)!
The union is legally obligated to help you - the HR department is obligated to protect your bosses interests, not yours.
I agree with that. But I teach Business Ethics, and in several of the cases we cover concerning hostile work environment, the issue of whether or not the employee made a good faith effort to resolve the issue before suing hinges at least partially on the available documentation and whether or not they went to HR. This doesn't preclude involving the union at all. And HR can't just randomly fire you for having a complaint about a co-worker. They can tranfer you to a less desireable job or shift, but it's unlikely she would be fired for talking to HR.
I'm assuming you would like to stop their disrespectful behavior as well as moving on to having a pleasant work environment where you actually get along with these men.
I recommend talking directly to them but not in a hostile way. You don't want to play their games or let them win, but you also don't want to make enemies (as all these wonderful commenters have said)
Wit is always great if you can pull it off - otherwise just be serious but genuine about feeling uncomfortable at work. Tell them what you've told us - You don't want to change shifts but you also obviously don't want to hate going to work.
good luck! let us know how it goes!