I recently had a conversation with my boyfriend about words like "womanly", "girly" and "feminine." He didn't seem to think there was a difference between these words and uses them interchangably. I told him that I think of "womanly" as synomous with descriptions of body type ("I am size 12, I have a womanly figure.") "Girly" is a word I would associate with pretty dresses for young girls with pink flowers. Finally, I think of "feminine" as describing the best things about being a woman. Strength of character, beauty (inside and out), intelligence...
I would welcome insight from the Community. Would you help us to continue our conversation?
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I've always thought of girly as having a negative connotation. Usually if something or someone is described as girly, it's not a good thing. And not so much because it implies youth, but because it implies an exaggerated state of weakness, frailty, indulgence in pretty things, etc.
Feminine to me is neutral even though a lot of people seem use the word and its derivations (feminized, effeminate) as negative, by default.
Womanly to me means grown up, worldly and educated. But maybe that's just the way people in my family use it.
I agree, although I have hardly ever heard anyone use "womanly". Girly has a negative connotation and feminine unfortunately has a negative connotation a good deal of the time.
I wish we could redefine feminine as "strength of character, beauty (inside and out), and intelligence"... but then men might (rightfully) complain!
It sounds like the OP's boyfriend simply has not given that much thought to it- which is fine.
To me, feminine has too many associations with stereotypical womanhood as defined by the patriarchy. Think about its opposite, unfeminine: it has often been used to demonize women who won't "stay in their place", who refuse to conform to male standards of beauty, dress, occupation or meekness.
I have come to believe that there is no such thing as any human trait which is inherently masculine or feminine, period.
I agree with your connotations on the other two, and add that "womanly" also has associations with maturity to me as well as full figures.
bifemme, good post... I just have minor quibbles here and there... no offense intended!
While I appreciate what you are trying to say, I have to reject the notion that "feminine" automatically has to mean what the patriarchy wants it to mean. It does not have to mean weakness, submissiveness or dependency. Similarly, women who reject the above qualities do not have to be "unfeminine," at least in my book.
For instance, if you do stereotypically "girly" things like wearing makeup, dresses and heels, does that mean you cannot do something stereotypically masculine such as being leader of a modern country? I'm sure the President of Argentina would take issue with such an argument. I'm pretty sure Elizabeth I, the most effective monarch in British history, would also take issue with such a modern stance.
That said, I don't want to argue with what I think you are saying about how there are no "masculine" or "feminine" absolutes. These all are very fluid things depending on which culture is in question (for instance, the ever-referenced example of girly "skirts" in one context becoming a manly "kilt" in another). I'm just saying that what the patriarchs in the media condemn as "feminine" does NOT have to automatically convey weakness.
I think your minor quibbles are with things I actually didn't say anywhere.
Womanly to me is adult-like. Mature.
Girly makes me think childish, superficial, inhibited. Ruffles and flowers and butterflies. The color pink also floods my thoughts, unfortunately (I don't think the color itself is anything, really, but it's one instance of society actually beating an idea into my head...).
Feminine is a lot harder because, to me, it just means anything associated with the female sex, which would just be like, having a uterus and stuff. I suppose more loosely would be wider hips and more developed mammary tissue. Beyond that, I have a hard time calling anything feminine.
Intrestingly enough, the color pink was the 'male' color, used for baby boys, in medivel times, while blue was the 'female' color, used for baby girls. Blue was for women because it was associated with the virgin Mary and purity. Pink was for boys becuase it was a variation on red, whitch was used for men.
This Fun Fact brought to you by JoanOfArc!
Really? What happened that made it change, and when?
some info here:
http://www.wisegeek.com/have-pink-and-blue-always-been-considered-gender-specific-colors.htm
and here:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=238733
Ruffles, butterflies, flowers, and pink are childish, superficial, and inhibitive?
My sorority had rituals, written in the 19th century, that used the word "womanly" a lot. They were basically switching it out for "manly" to mean exemplifying strength, virtue and wisdom - a certain gravitas and maturity. I have always preferred to think of it in this context.
I am size 4, I have a womanly figure.
Did anyone say you didn't?
The OP kinda did.
I felt that way too.
All of those words have multiple connotations that can lend different meanings, all of which may be correct. In general, though, the distinction between 'girly' and 'womanly' is the same as that between 'girl' and 'woman'-- one is child-like, the other is mature. I think that's an important distinction to keep.
I'm a woman therefore I have a "womanly" body irrespective of how small or big I am.
Nice to know we're still clinging to this "real women have curves" bullshit, though.
I don't recall anyone saying that...
I'm sorry that you're so sensitive about your body type though. :(
Noone said it directly, but in saying that size 12 is womanly, its like saying that sizes 0 through maybe 6 or 7 (possibly 11?) are not womanly. I am a woman, why is my figure not womanly by default? Why must anyone have around size 12 curves to have a womanly body?
This is actually kind of an interesting idea. I mean, one school of thought would state that all of those words are applicable only to women, but they're applicable to all women. A "womanly" figure would be a figure that is descriptive of a particular woman--all woman have womanly figures, and by it's very definition it would be impossible for a man to have a womanly figure. Feminine is a bit tougher, because it refers to, I think, the socially constructed version of what female is supposed to be. In that sense, a man could be feminine if he had qualities that reflected that concept.
In any sense, they're either describing the REALITY of women (which is so varied that it doesn't really describe anything, except that the subject being described is female) or the...FANTASY of women, I suppose (which is a somewhat difficult thing to reference oneself or someone else to on a constant basis).
Also there's the idea of exclusion that goes into that. By labelling a particular quality as feminine, it could be said that it subtracts that quality from masculine, and vice versa. Granted, this only works if we're defining men and women, and masculine and feminine as direct opposites, but that's not an uncommon view in the world.
Using the word "girly" to describe a woman would imply some level of immaturity. That said, unless we are actually discussing gender roles, I don't see how they could be used with policing gender roles.
For example, the OP says that the word "feminine" describes "the best things about being a woman" as if there are universal character traits or a universal feminine experience when neither exist.
Thanks for your comments!
What I was referencing in my post was my own associations with the word "womanly." Please don't take it as criticism about body types or figures. It was not meant this way.
http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/50094881?query_type=word&queryword=girly&first=1&max_to_show=10&sort_type=alpha&result_place=2&search_id=KgB2-k1a557-669&hilite=50094881
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/girly
http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/50083524?query_type=word&queryword=feminine&first=1&max_to_show=10&sort_type=alpha&result_place=1&search_id=KgB2-zsIkeb-702&hilite=50083524
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/feminine
Because dictionaries are written by totally objective robots with no axes to grind or hidden biases!
No, it's an interesting question to ponder? What makes a meaning of a word? Is it the dictionary definition? The most popular usage, with all of the connotations that the majority puts on it? Self-definition? I think a possible problem with self-definition is that without some pretty clear explanations, it can be like two people are speaking a different language.
Personally, I find 'feminine' to have a negative connotation. I do NOT think it inherent to the word, but its common application to the purely ornamental or 'wishy-washy'.
'Womanly' is more positive to me. It connotes that the person described is a competent adult (who happens to be female) rather than associating us with children.
For me, 'girly' is in the middle. It suggests a certain frivolity, but also energy and an optimistic outlook. I wouldn't necessarily want my boss to think I'm girly, but if I'm with friends what's wrong with letting my hair down a bit and being a little silly if I feel like it?
as for the words, i think it depends on context, both of who is using the word and what the situation is. plus, everybody kind of uses words different ways.
i've occasionally heard people use 'feminine' mostly to discuss fashion - wearing a dress is more 'feminine' than more gender neutral clothes like pants, more just commenting on social conventions rather than praising one or the other. it's more like saying 'wearing a dress or pink is considered more feminine than wearing a sweatshirt and pants in the US.' in that way it's more just about standards that are arbitrary.
i think it's impossible to separate these words (or maybe any but the most bland and functional of words perhaps) from their social and cultural contexts. 'womanly' sounds kind of old-fashioned to me. 'girly' could be taken to just mean childish, or perhaps amusingly silly, but if you hear a man call another man a 'girly man' it seems to imply that it's synonymous with weakness.
i've known women who were 50+ who still called themselves 'girls' at times, though i've known of fairly young women who were insistent on calling themselves and having other people call them 'women.' perhaps that's a personal thing, as to whether you want to say, make the statement that you're 50 but still have fun and can laugh, or if you feel that you're mature and want some recognition for that.