I found this article from Elle Magazine to be surprisingly insightful.
I would be delighted to hear thoughts from the community, especially on the suggestions given to address this type of sabotage.
The advice on how to communicate about the problem seemed good.
From the Article: “You’ve got to push on,” Real advises. “You have to say, ‘Hey, this is the third time you’ve done such and such, and I think you’re picking a fight with me because you’re threatened.’ ” But it’s crucial to combine that challenge with an affirmative message, one that’s “strong and loving at the same time,” Real says. “Tell him, ‘I love you to pieces, and you will always be my first priority. Let’s work this out.’”
I'm not a fan of the "have sex and the problem will go away" schtick, although it might have some benefit for some people and I believe the author is approaching it the right way (as part of a healthy sex-life and the author does not seem to bring it up in an anti-feminist way at all).
From the Article: "Real also suggests some old-fashioned sexual validation; it’s worth finding your own version of “You’ve got to knock this off, because I’m not tolerating it. Gosh, you look hot tonight—let’s go to bed!” he says. Such reassurance quells a common male fear that “the more powerful women get, the less they’re going to care about or need you, because under the system of patriarchy, power and connection are mutually exclusive. But the next step for both men and women is integration and wholeness—strong, bighearted guys and strong, bighearted gals.”
So, what do you all think?
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There's a somewhat odd transition in the article, where at the beginning, it presents the situation like the men are afraid of losing control of the relationship, but at the end, presents the situation more like the men are afraid of losing their value in the relationship.
Certainly the advice reads this way too; if the man is afraid of losing power, then "Let's get naked and sweaty" doesn't seem like it'd be very re-assuring/helpful, but if he's afraid that his wife/girlfriend being economically successful means he's valueless and thus unattractive, acting like he's attractive/valuable should be re-assuring. I may be (i. e. am) projecting my own reactions into these hypothetical men, and that article acknowledges it'll be age dependent and all, so my own experience may well be worthless.
At least, so far as I understand it, in our traditional gender roles, mens' value is primarily/exclusively from the economic support, so a man who isn't providing that isn't providing anything, and (thus) has no value. While we moved away from traditional gender roles here somewhat in the last 50 years, men probably have less than women, and certainly in how we're valued. So far as I can see, very little replacement value has opened up, so it shouldn't be surprising that you'll some men be awfully petty when it comes to preserving what little value they think they have, feeling unneeded is not pleasant (not that this justifes such actions, mind, but one can expect that some men would fail to deal with it properly (whatever that means, if you're taught traditional male gender role, I suppose it's "suck it up and deal", though I wouldn't expect many here to advocate that as the proper way to deal with feeling useless/valueless) without endorsing it, the same way we expect there to be car accidents while still thinking they're undesirable)
I agree, the article is interesting and odd. While I think it did an adequate job of describing the problem, it didn't do so well explaining it. Not to mention the advice was totally unhelpful:
"You have to say, ‘Hey, this is the third time you’ve done such and such, and I think you’re picking a fight with me because you’re threatened.’"
Riiiiight. My husband won't shut down and stop listening AT ALL if I say that to him. (Hell I'D shut down if somebody said that to ME...)
The advice continues:
"But it’s crucial to combine that challenge with an affirmative message, one that’s “strong and loving at the same time,” Real says. “Tell him, ‘I love you to pieces, and you will always be my first priority. Let’s work this out.’"
All that is fine, except he totally stopped listening when I told him he was threatened by my career. So trust-he's not hearing any of this. (Not to mention it sounds kind patronizing, IMO.)
And I don't even want to address the "make him feel better by letting him be a 'man' in bed" suggestion. Because that won't breed resentment on the wife's part at all- having to come home after a long day's work, fix dinner, pick up the house, and then feel obligated to sexually stroke her husband's ego so that she might continue her career without his pesky resentment.
I put off my education and career so my husband could finish school. Meanwhile I had a kid, and I stayed home because my take home pay would not cover child care. Sure enough, after graduation, I find myself in the situation described by the article's author. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I'm pretty damned sure I'm not going to find it in Elle magazine.
Hey, this is the third time you’ve done such and such, and I think you’re picking a fight with me because you’re threatened. That phrasing is probably terrible, I agree, but in a marriage with good communication, hopefully you'll be able to communicate a similar meaning in a less accusatory way. (Context dependent, I shouldn't presume for all marriages)
Their specific suggestions do assume a lot about your home situation, to be sure. It probably comes off as more reasonable to me because when I come home, I'll fix dinner, nobody'll pick up the house, and there's only furry substitute kids to worry about (and if they need feeding or their litterbox changed, that's probably me too) You know your own situation better than J. Random Magazine Editor, but the underlying diagnosis of the problem (that he feels unvaluable since he's failing in his traditional gender role) might give some insight into how to deal with it. But generally ask "Why do I value this man?" (I guess that assumes you do), and "How can I make it clear that he's valued?".
This kind of neglects the broader context, I'll admit. If one partner or the other in unreasonably demanding or selfish; that's a different problem, and one I'm not sure how to address, I suppose. But the "Why does he feel threatened by my career?" question, to the "Because in the context of traditional gender roles, he's now valueless." answer, and "What can I do?" question to the "Show him how he's valuable to you." answer is probably a worthwhile insight in many cases, even if it's expressed poorly here.
Rose0red said,
" "You have to say, ‘Hey, this is the third time you’ve done such and such, and I think you’re picking a fight with me because you’re threatened.’"
Riiiiight. My husband won't shut down and stop listening AT ALL if I say that to him. (Hell I'D shut down if somebody said that to ME...) "
I'm trying to think of alternative ways to express the feelings behind this experience, rose0red. I know there has to be a less accusatory way, but I'm having a hard time thinking of anything.
How about,
"Furthering my education and career is important to me, and I would like to know that I have your full support. Supporting you and our family throughout your career development was something I'm proud I was able to do because I love you and want to be there for you. I just want to know that you will be able to love and support me in the same way now that I am working on my career and personal development. Can we talk about ways we can be there for each other as we grow professionally and as people?"
I don't know if that would work at all, but I guess it's something I might say in the same situation(?) I'm not sure though, because I haven't experienced this.
Thanks everyone for reading & commenting on my first post ever on the feministing community :)
What I have found works fairly well with either gender is, "This is the third time you've done [this thing that really upsets me]. Is there something going with you that we need to talk about?"
He may be threatened, or it might be something else. By letting him figure out for himself why he's undermining (or whatever), the insight is more powerful.
re-reading my comment, it sounds kind of touchy-feely and all, but I guess that's just the way I am when I talk about things that upset me on a very personal level.
That article hit home for me, sadly. My partner used to start arguments with me just before bed about once a week during an important internship. It took a lot of honest conversations to get to the root of the problem, but I think in a strong relationship it's possible to get over it. Now I'm applying for the Peace Corps, and even though he's not too happy, he's told me that he realizes it's his problem for being insecure and not my problem for following my goals.
As a person of the next, younger, generation I get the feeling that generation of individuals between my mother's generation (she's in her late 50s) and my generation (I'm 21) is in more of a transition period than my age group and wonder how gender roles will be handled when my age group starts to occupy high status jobs and has kids. Not to say people my age all without careers/kids/marriages. Most of the men I know in my age group seem to be pretty comfortable with their female peers graduating from college at higher rates and becoming successful, and even wonder if some of these men are quite content with the idea of stay-at-home dad or even trophy husband.
I'm not sure what I am trying to get at, but it will be interesting to see how gender roles change with a new generation and what other kinds of problems, for both (or should I say all) genders, will evolve as a result.
"have sex and the problem will go away" believe it or not this works well. I am a man, I should know.